seeing a massive decline in online shilling for it, across youtube, reddit etc.

>>105764082 (OP)
Same.

Hope so.

>>105764082 (OP)
It has no practical advantage so it becomes another meme lang
it probably won't even have a niche because all of its promotion was completely artificial.

On the contrary, I've been seeing an increase of posts insisting that "it's becoming irrelevant trust me bro". Always without hard numbers and just depending on their delicate feels

>>105764115
go on youtube and search up yourself, filter by upload date "this year".
And most importantly, go and search the number of open jobs.

>>105764082 (OP)
USAID money dried up so there are no funds to give out to Indians to shill it.

>>105764082 (OP)
sorry I've been lazy lately
I'll get back to it in 14 days

>>105764115
you can't say trust without rust

>>105764082 (OP)
the shillers were all troons and ACKed themselfs.

>>105764181
>Israel gets involved in another war
>woke posting goes into the toilet
A really noggin scratcher.

>>105764191
Lmao
Jokes aside, I simply think that the whole recreate the wheel thing is what dooms all such langs.
It's true that there are lots of problems in C/C++ but it's also true that the systems programming domain is done and dusted.

The reason JS didn't end up like Rust, is because as a tool it wasn't focused on replacing anything, instead it became the web standard.

Troon Jokes aside is replacing C/C++ even possible? Why did Rust fail?

>>105765322
chromium has replaced freetype with a Rust alternative.
chromium currently works on replacing harfbuzz, libpng and intl with Rust alternatives.
chromium writes its temporal api implementation in Rust.

>>105764082 (OP)
There was never need to shill it. People like you make Rust threads every single day.

>>105764322
Rust(and C++) is to C how Typescript is to Javascript though. They were never meant to replace the other but to add a new layer of safety and features on top of it. And there will always be people who prefer JS or C over TS/C++/Rust because they can't comprehend more advanced programming concepts and why safety/proper typing is good.

Lel. How naive. Rust will soon be the language of choice for Linux kernel development.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/NOVA-Core-Co-Maintainer
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Tyr-Rust-DRM-Graphics-Driver

>>105765528
>Rust will soon be the language of choice for Linux kernel development
Wrong. Rust is only considered for Linux drivers.

>>105765554
Linux without drivers is unusable

>>105765567
That's orthogonal to what you previously claimed.

>>105765577
it's relevant to what you said

>>105765554
Take a look at the changelogs; 99% of linux development is drivers (which include filesystems).

>>105764082 (OP)
The advertising $$$ ran out, probably. You cannot shill a failing product forever, there is no ROI.

>>105765592
Yes, but it doesn't make you correct.

>>105765606
Closer to 80% form what I see.
Either way it would be dishonest to claim that Rust is the language of choice for kernel development if it can't be used in the core.

>>105765322
C is such a perfect language I don't think anyone could replace it, C++ is just C with extra shit but its extra shit that got standardized and built into literally everything so it manages to have the raw elegance of C and 40 years of spaghetti code keeping it alive at the same time.

>>105765654
embarrassing

>>105765322
>is replacing C/C++ even possible?
Not only possible, but inevitable.

>Why did Rust fail?
The better question is: Who was foolish enough to have ever thought it could succeed?

>>105764082 (OP)
>>105764181
Came here to said this, USAID money dried up finally.

>>105765634
it doesn't need to be used in the core, most of the potential errors come from drivers which rust would make safer

>>105765679
>Who was foolish enough to have ever thought it could succeed?
Rust is pretty successful.

>>105764181
>>105765693
Rust foundation finances are public. They received no USAID money. Why would they anyway?

>>105765704
arewegameyet.rs
>Almost

>>105764082 (OP)
Could never understand it

>>105765719
What?

>>105765721
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rust.

>>105765679
In C++ this is just https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/1cbb3122cb2779198b0dcfb8afc28df711e64138/libstdc%2B%2B-v3/include/std/ranges#L3750

>>105765719
Rust is terrible if you have a lot of mutable state with multiple owners, something you're going to have a lot of in gaymen thus Rust will never take off in that area. You have to resort to putting a lot of stuff in global, static arrays and using unsafe blocks when interacting with it or basically implementing your own garbage collector with Rc/Arc. You might as well just use C++ or even Go (if you're constantly using Rc) at that point.

>>105765741
Rust is Ocaml but for brown, trans people. It's not for the high IQ straight white male.

>>105765741

>>105765752
This shit is unreadable

>>105765775
>Filtered by C++
Brainlet detected. This language is more your speed. https://www.python.org/downloads/

>>105765780
Rust's implementation is simpler

>>105765755
I made a game engine in Rust and didn't had any of issues you have listed. I have no globals, no statics, only a couple of Arcs(for ~2 multi threaded components), and only used unsafe in some FFI and some low level GPU code.
The things you mention are more newbie kind of problems and if you are somewhat experienced in Rust it really isn't hard to design a your architecture that avoid all these issues. I can go more into detail if you are interested.

The reason why Rust is bad for gamedev is something very different. Rust heavily prefers waterfall approach to making software and is quite rigid. It really isn't a good language to quickly prototype random shit, which is very important in gamedev. Maybe if you go with something analogous to C++ + Lua combo that you see so often nowadays you could make it more manageable, but there are simply better tools for making games if you want to make a game.

>>105765713
because something something trannies jews harris
t. never wrote a single line of code

>>105765780
Oof, the C++ zealot cannot defend such abomination and must quickly create a distraction.

>>105765752
_Why const _do_they = __write::__every_thing<std::_Like_t> && __M_That(?);

>>105764082 (OP)
What are you talking about? Literally every day some troon suggests rewriting the linux kernel in this mockery of a system programming language.

>>105765807
That's a string split, I think the Rust and C++ ones are array splits

>>105765867
Otherwise if the user writes #define x ":^)" and this breaks the stdlib it's considered the stdlib's fault

>>105765880
Every popular kernel already has Rust in it. Even Android.

>>105765888
The kernel i am running has no Rust in it.

>>105765713
The Rust Foundation was funding the nonstop Rust posting here and on other boards that it has no mysteriously disappeared from?

>>105765912
What kind of posting? We have people who seethe over Rust making threads every single day on /g/ and I doubt anyone is paying them.

>>105765713
yeah, cause DARPA isn't the same thing as USAID

>>105765713
>>105765827
Yeah it just gets slush funded via MS, Amazon, Meta, etc. instead.

>>105765907
Sure, but you are a minority.

>>105765940
https://rustfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Annual-Report-2024.pdf
Where do you see any DARPA? Rust is financed by large companies that use it, AWS, Google, Microsoft, etc

>>105765961
Here.
There are literally MIC companies inside
https://helsing.ai

>>105765961

>>105765961
https://www.galois.com/

>>105765961
.

>>105766047
But you claimed that "USAID money dried up finally"
Did DARPA stopped funding these companies you circled, or wtf is even your point at this point?

>>105766089

>>105766063
Yes, DARPA did their own research on Rust.

How is this any related to what you are claiming?

>>105766100

>>105766082
What about it?

>>105766089
What are you even trying to say?

>>105766100
>>105766105
c2rust is not an official Rust project. What is your point?

>>105766103
I think the claim that they are shills on government gibs, got proven with an undeniable clarity.

>>105766107

>>105766114
>proven with an undeniable clarity
Where?
Where do you see goverment funding Rust foundation?
c2rust is not an official project in any way.

>>105766113
WTF is an "official" Rust project?
Is it not approved by you personally right now in that moment so it doesn't count?

>>105766125
What about it? c2rust is a 3rd party project.

>>105766135
>WTF is an "official" Rust project?
A project that is "official, affiliated, or endorsed by the Rust Project or Rust Foundation" as stated in the trademark policy.

c2rust is not officially endorsed or affiliated by Rust foundation in any way. It's a 3rd part tool just like literally any other library or transpilation tool out there.

>>105766137
>>105766135
WTF is "first party"?
WTF are you even talking about?

The claim was that they are government shills:
>>105764181
>>105765693
And you changed subject and shouted ONLY THE RUST FOUNDATION COUNTS >>105765713
While this very Rust foundation is filled to the brim with DARPA contractors.

What is your point?
What are you trying to claim here?
Are you trying to deny that Rust is shilled by disgusting propaganda on government money?

>>105766145
So your argument is that there are indeed government paid Rust shills, but they aren't endorsed by the indirect government funded Rust foundation?
Do i get that right?

>>105765867
Because library writers are clinically insane.

>>105764181
Not true, Rust is legit and is on the verge of replacing C right now. Every single kernel is being oxidized as we speak right now.


(This reply was written with funding from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). The view, opinions and/or findings expressed are those of the author and should not be interpreted as representing the official views or policies of the Department of Defense or the U.S. Government.)

>>105766152
>WTF is "first party"?
>WTF are you even talking about?
A project that is "official, affiliated, or endorsed by the Rust Project or Rust Foundation".

You do not see c2rust in any of the official repos for example: https://github.com/rust-lang/
That's because it was made by some random company, not by the Rust Project.

>And you changed subject and shouted ONLY THE RUST FOUNDATION COUNTS >>105765713 (You)
I literally asked you about Rust foundation in the post you've replied to here >>105765961

>What is your point?
My points:
That the statement "USAID money dried up finally" is wrong.
The claim that Rust is funded by DARPA is also wrong.
c2rust is a 3rd party project unrelated to Rust Project or Rust foundation.

>What are you trying to claim here?
That you are wrong.

>Are you trying to deny that Rust is shilled by disgusting propaganda on government money?
Yes. You can see their finances here: https://rustfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Annual-Report-2024.pdf

>>105766156
>So your argument is that there are indeed government paid Rust shills, but they aren't endorsed by the indirect government funded Rust foundation?
Wrong.

>Do i get that right?
No. See above.

>>105766191
You go girl!
Yes, Rust shills on tax payer money exist. But they aren't officially affiliated with the Rust Foundation(TM), so the claim that there are Rust shills on tax payer money is false.

(This reply was written with funding from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). The view, opinions and/or findings expressed are those of the author and should not be interpreted as representing the official views or policies of the Department of Defense or the U.S. Government.)

>>105766201
>You go girl!
>>>/lgbt/

>>105766191
>I literally asked you about Rust foundation
So you switched topic?

Happy that we could clear that up.
Since we both agree now that there are government funded Rust shills, we can end this discussion.
It was all just a misunderstanding after all.

>>105766223
>So you switched topic?
No. I was talking about Rust fundation from the start: >>105765713
Then you replied trying to change the topic from USAID to DARPA: >>105765940
Then I asked for clarification: >>105765961
And then you started talking about c2rust out of nowhere

The only person who switches topics in this reply chain is (You).

>have civil thread
>the discussion turns positive for Rust
>suddenly, wild schizo larper appears and shit herself
Like pottery

>>105764082 (OP)
Cniles will really look at a safe language and be all
>NO NO NO KILL IT KILL IT NOW WE MUST HAVE BUFFER OVERFLOW EXPLOITS AND OTHER MEMORY VULNERABILITIES BECAUSE UH WE JUST DO OK

>>105765824
>I made a game engine in Rust
Please do link that game engine and games made with it, and Steam links to the games.

Based schizo itt.

>>105766322
Tiny Glade

>>105766322
>link that game engine
Why? I honestly doubt you have energy and skills required to go though all this code.
I have been asked to post the code maybe a dozen times on /g/ already and not a single(one, 1, uno) anyone replied anything constructive about it. How can I know this time it won't be the same?
If you want to know how I solved the issues you've mentioned just ask, it will be much faster this way anyway.

>games made with it, and Steam links to the games
I never made any games with it, just few tech demos. I never intended this to be a full fledged game engine, it doesn't even have any audio. It just turned out to be like a game engine, but in reality it's just my own sandbox to prototype various VR/graphics/physics stuff.

>>105766363
>visual basic higher thjan JS
>matlab higher than prolog
>scratch higher than Ada
Lmao wtf is this list

>>105766408
>matlab higher than prolog
I mean higher than Go.
Also prolog being in top 20 is a topkek on its own. What is this rating.

>>105766369
Your game?

>>105766408
https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programminglanguages_definition/

>>105766426
I doubt tiny glade developer would post here.
Also tiny glade is made in bevy, which is a largeish foss engine, not really a solo dev hobby project.

>>105766385
>I never made any games with it, just few tech demos.
OK.

>>105766432
>Basically the calculation comes down to counting hits for the search query
>+"<language> programming"
>In the next few sections it is explained what search engines qualify, what programming languages qualify and how the ratings are exactly calculated.
Kek.

>>105766439
We use Bevy with a custom renderer.

>>105766439
>tiny glade is made in bevy
Modified version of Bevy, to be pedantic.

>>105765679
>next(&mut self)
So an invitation to self mutilation? Then:
>self.finished
I guess that would be true.

>see code
>think about sexual degeneracy out of nowhere
What makes cniles so sexually frustrated?

>>105766249
There were some US government reports on memory safety, and Rust Foundation members or alumni involved in some of those, right? Rustaceans paid by the US government to do those reports, and then them advocating in the reports to fund memory safe languages, and mentioning Rust as one language to fund.

>>105766513
You will code in Rust and you will like it!

>>105766259
https://materialize.com/blog/rust-concurrency-bug-unbounded-channels/

>>105766530
I'd rather code in some succesor language to both C++ and Rust, with better foundation, design, etc. But that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Not going to say what I currently work with.

>>105766551
>succesor
Successor

>>105766551
>Not going to say what I currently work with.
I already know

>>105766513
>There were some US government reports on memory safety, and Rust Foundation members or alumni involved in some of those, right?
It's up to you to provide sources for your claims.

>Rustaceans paid by the US government to do those reports, and then them advocating in the reports to fund memory safe languages, and mentioning Rust as one language to fund.
How is this even related to all this claims about supposed conspiracy about USAID money drying out and affecting Rust project in any way?

>>105766573
Lmao.

Nah, nothing like that.

>>105766537
Buy an ad

>>105766408
>>105766432
>>105766455
normal way to rank programming languages nothing wrong with that

>>105764082 (OP)
Isn't that normal? Rust shilling and development should be decreasing by about 50% per year.

>rust is totally failing for real this time guiz!

You people have been crying for 10+ years, take your dicking like a man aleeady

>>105766613
Yeah. I guess it's time to learn Visual Basic now.

>>105766623
you mean %69

>>105766623
>stop programming in a language I don't like!!!11

>>105766581
>It's up to you to provide sources for your claims.
Would this qualify?
https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/sites.gatech.edu/dist/a/2878/files/2022/10/OSSI-Final-Report-3.pdf
Fairly certain there are a number of other reports as well. And websites, and other initiatives and activities and stuff.

>>105766647
>Georgia Institute of Technology
USAID?
DARPA?
??????????????

>>105766591
Summary:
Rust standard library had UB.
Popular Rust library also had UB.
Use Valgrind, Miri and gdb when testing a and debugging Rust codebases. But do not rely on them, since for instance Miri did not quite catch this UB.

>>105766647
Wtf is this random university paper from 2022. How is this any related to USAID or DARPA or Rust Project or Rust Foundation? Where are the "US government" and "Rust Foundation members or alumni" and "advocating in the reports to fund memory safe languages, and mentioning Rust as one language to fund"

>>105766664
>To improve the security of the open-source software ecosystem, a virtual workshop took place on 24-25 August 2022, under the auspices of the Office of Management and the Budget (OMB), the
National Science Foundation (NSF), and the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST). The goal was to bring together stakeholders from the open-source software (OSS) community, the private sector, academia, and the U.S. Government, in support of the White House￾led U.S. Open-source Security Initiative.
>
>The workshop and the author of this report were supported by NSF Grant 2232616. Any opinions, findings and conclusions or recommendations expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of the National Science Foundation.

Also some reports by the NSA, if I recall correctly. Though at least one of those reports was hilariously and depressingly incompetent, as I recall.

>>105766701
I'm not going to spoonfeed you all the way, my Rusty friend. Click and read the link.

>>105766719
I clicked and checked. Rust is mentioned in like one paragraph in the whole paper. You are full of shit.

>>105766706
How is this any related to USAID supposedly running out of shilling money?

>>105766671
Mistakes happen. It's a good thing that Rust has explicit unsafe blocks so you know where to look for potential bugs.

>>105766731
Uh.

Anyone can download the report, search, and find way more results for Rust than what you claim.

Why do you lie about something so easy for everyone to check that you are lying?

>>105766765
schizo

>>105766760
Yet in this case, they still had to spend something like weeks debugging, and use tools like Valgrind and gdb, right? And one would prefer to not have that UB in the first place.

And some voices claim that unsafe blocks are more difficult to work with than C or C++.

>>105766780
Trolling or demanding to be spoonfed?

For anyone reading, just download the report and search for "rust".

>>105766798
It's funny that in order for rust to actually supplant C/C++, it has to rely on features that are antithetical to its core design principles
Rust is innately contradictory in its goals and that's why it will never be anything but a second string language in systems programming.

>>105766743
I wasn't the one making that claim, more the claim >>105766513.

>>105766808
>Rust is mentioned in a report on Open-source Software Security
>why would trannies do this?

>>105766798
>And one would prefer to not have that UB in the first place.
No one wants UB. Thankfully Rust is made in a way that makes UB less likely and easier to debug than in C or C++ for example.
If you can't afford any such UB, you should probably look into managed languages like Java or Python.

>And some voices claim that unsafe blocks are more difficult to work with than C or C++.
Why?

>>105766817
It's just sad, for it has some nice things, and some of its goals are great.

I'd love it if some more programming language experimentation and research was done in that direction.

>>105766647
>One of the key questions debated by the Steering Committee was how to (gradually) encourage
the transition of software developers
I knew it. Fucking rust.

>>105766841
Explain tree borrows.

>>105766822
If this wasn't your point, then why did you responded to my post which was talking about it?

What point are you even trying to make now? You seem to keep moving the goal post, USAID to DARPA, Rust Foundation to Immunant. Finances drying out to not actually drying out.

Just make one argument and stick to it lmao. The way you argue seems extremely dishonest.

>>105766841
>Why?
nta, but he is right. for example: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2582-raw-reference-mir-operator.md

>>105766831
Troll.

>>105766817
What is innately contradictory to its goals?
Also what do you even consider as its goals?

>>105764082 (OP)
>>105764099
USAID related?

>>105766866
Sorry, I should have made it clear that I wasn't the OP and that I jumped into someone elses' discussion.

>>105766858
What do you mean by tree borrows?

I'm pretty sure that its complexity is pushing people into dead ends that they can't get out of.

>>105766875
How?

>>105766883
https://www.ralfj.de/blog/2023/06/02/tree-borrows.html

>>105766874
Your inability or unwillingness to use context to answer your own questions makes me think you're trying to argue by attrition, nice try, read nigga read.

>>105766901
It's up to you to state your arguments. No one is going to do it for you.

>>105766874
Not the OP, but some arguably minor things are panics, which are not exceptions since they can't be caught, except Rust panics can actually be caught with catch_unwind() if you compile your crate in the right mode, and Rust panics are implemented with C++ exceptions in LLVM.
Rust's memory model is also explicitly based on or the same as C++20.

>>105766896
Sorry, it's first time I read about this.
But this article seems well written. Is there any specific part you don't understand?

>>105766883
Exactly my point.

>>105766934
Explain stacked borrows.

>>105766505
>sexually frustrated
Only you brought that up.

>>105766938
Lel.

>>105766913
>Not the OP, but some arguably minor things are panics, which are not exceptions since they can't be caught
You can caught them. It's the same kind of unrolling as you see in C++. It's just that you are encouraged to use monadic error handling instead of the slow unrolling, and save panics for actual unrecoverable errors.

How does this answer my question? Are you trying to say that Rust goal was to make panics uncatchable or what?

>Rust's memory model is also explicitly based on or the same as C++20.
Yeah. In many ways Rust is designed like modern C++, but from scratch, without all the legacy.

The actual, real goal of Rust was to not be innovative or academic, but to take what is the best from various languages and create a new, modern, solid one. So this aligns.

>>105766895
The previous administration was shilling it.

>>105766910
Alright. When you're writing low level code like a kernel, you barely even have a heap, you have to acquire pages from raw memory maps you either create in real mode when using bios or ones you get handed via grub or uefi. You are creating the memory layout, you have to handle interrupts, all that good ring 0 shit. Almost everything going on in a kernel is unsafe because the kernel is something that exists to provide structure to code running on the system.
To answer your question, Rust's mandate is to make code 'safer' yet it seeks to operate in a realm where safety is less than guaranteed. That's my point.

>>105766977
The current administration upholds the recommendation though.

>>105765780
>underscores everywhere le good
>continuing to use snake case in the year 2025 of our lord and saviour

>>105766874
>>105766913
The panic/exception stuff means that one may have to worry about unwind safety, similar to exception safety in C++, and I'm not sure how that interacts with unsafe or drop-methods/destructors. And Rust doesn't always make it easy to reason about when lifetimes end, due to stuff like NLL and the borrow checker taking care of things for you, yet Rust has RAII and also uses RAII for mutexes, so you might be able to get deadlocks if you mess up reasoning about at which point in time a lifetime ends.
They also changed lifetime rules across editions.

>>105766995
>some nigger could shoot you at any moment so what's the point of seatbelts?
very compelling argument

>>105766995
>Rust's mandate is to make code 'safer' yet it seeks to operate in a realm where safety is less than guaranteed
Yeah, and it does so by allowing you to write safe abstractions over unsafe code. That's what this all is about and it really isn't that hard to do so.
I don't see any contradiction here.

>>105767013
>and I'm not sure how that interacts with unsafe or drop-methods/destructors
You just have to pre-poop your pants
https://faultlore.com/blah/everyone-poops/

>>105766974
>You can caught them.
Yeah, I wrote that later on in the same sentence.
Also: "can caught"?

>>105764322
Yeah, and from that web throne JS could climb down and gradually start conquering other lands as well. Your non-legacy servers are probably being written in Node right now.
Not to mention it's the best for writing web parsers, headless browsers, and crawlers. You may know this more generally e.g. from Python's beautifulSoup, but it's an utter shitshow compared to a TS+Node+Playwright solution.
JS is also 15 times faster than Python while being half as fast as Java. Its syntax also respects your time while not being putrid ass like Python's (and its common libs like Numpy). Basically, JS (TS) has achieved perfect balance.

>>105766974
>The actual, real goal of Rust was to not be innovative or academic, but to take what is the best from various languages and create a new, modern, solid one. So this aligns.
Uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

>105767025

I don't like how Rust is strict with memory safety but doesn't hold your hand enough like Go and kotlin. Pick a side.

>>105767021
Is it sufficient to vet those blocks, or do you have to vet all module code in the modules they appear in?
And Asahi ain't the best source, he or she (depending on Martin Hector or his alter ego Asahi Lina) got chastised by Linus Torvalds, and it was drama and had news articles written about it.

>>105767013
>The panic/exception stuff means that one may have to worry about unwind safety, similar to exception safety in C++,
Yeah.

>I'm not sure how that interacts with unsafe or drop-methods/destructors
The same way it does in C++. The compiler adds a landing shim for unwinding that runs the desctructors. Destructors are not guaranteed to run(if you have nested panics or something), but it doesn't really matter because you should not recover from panics. At most just catch it and display some error message and close the program.

>And Rust doesn't always make it easy to reason about when lifetimes end, due to stuff like NLL and the borrow checker taking care of things for you,
Borrow checker doesn't do anything on its own. It's a static analyzer.
I don't really see how NLL are a problem. It just works and if the compiler detects some problem it will state so. If you want to ensure the borrow is dropped at specific point you can use manual drop.

>yet Rust has RAII and also uses RAII for mutexes, so you might be able to get deadlocks if you mess up reasoning about at which point in time a lifetime ends.
Yeah, deadlocks are not undefined behavior so it's not an issue. You can get deadlocks in any language. How is RAII related tho?

So... where are the goals and contradictions?

>>105767096
Linus Torvalds isn't the best source, he got chastised by Kees Cook, and it was drama and had news articles written about it.
https://lore.kernel.org/all/202504210909.D4EAB689@keescook/

>>105766189
Where are the Rust native ABI's, OS APIs etc? Where are the pure Rust firmware, driver, kernel stacks? Where are the pure Rust OS's (C had all of these after 10 years of existence)? In embedded Rust is DOA outside of a couple of niche automotive and aerospace applications. In game dev Rust is DOA (borrow checker and explicit lifetimes is anathema to iterating fast). In cloud Rust is DOA and will never replace the kubernetes/docker backbone made in Go. In compilers Go won again with the TS rewrite. The place Rust is seeing the most adoption is fucking web backends and those cunts are renowned for following whatever is the fotm trend (like claiming Javascript is a functional language and programming in a retarded const const const [array].foreach => {niggers} style then realizing their applications are now twice as slow for no benefit to anyone). Rust is a failure in every area it was aiming to win.

>>105767136
github.com
gitlab.com

>>105766259
>Somehow, reaches a conclusion diametrically opposed to reality.
>Tries to meme it.
>Fails
This bot is not working properly. Please reload it or reboot the system.

>>105767111
I'm kinda getting the impression that you start with a goal, and try to warp the perception of reality to achieve that goal, instead of sticking to reality and figure things out from there.

And that may be the worst of all, since it's anathema to several critical aspects of responsible engineering.

>>105767096
>Is it sufficient to vet those blocks, or do you have to vet all module code in the modules they appear in?
An unsound unsafe code can cause an undefined behavior in safe code. But as long as the code within unsafe blocks is sound, the rest of your code is guaranteed to be free from observable undefined behavior.
But that's not the point. If a whole GPU driver can get away with just a couple of unsafe blocks, it shows that Rust can be used sanely in low level context like this.

>And Asahi ain't the best source, he or she (depending on Martin Hector or his alter ego Asahi Lina) got chastised by Linus Torvalds, and it was drama and had news articles written about it.
He is still very competent. Both Hector and the C guy he got into arguments with got told by Linus and left Linux project. Both were criticized for their behavior in the mailing lists, not because of their technical skills though.

>>105767117
Linus is going strong, Hector Martin/Asahi Lina has withdrawn from public as I gather. A mess, he shouldn't have done that stuff in the first place.

>>105767199
>Linus is going strong
about that...

>>105767196
>But as long as the code within unsafe blocks is sound, the rest of your code is guaranteed to be free from observable undefined behavior.
Can one ever get UB due to a bug in safe code adjacent to unsafe blocks if they're in the same module?


>He is still very competent. Both Hector and the C guy he got into arguments with got told by Linus and left Linux project. Both were criticized for their behavior in the mailing lists, not because of their technical skills though.
For any lurkers here, find the articles yourselves about Hector Martin instead of trusting the posts in this thread.

>>105767136
https://github.com/redox-os/kernel
https://github.com/redox-os/libc

>>105767229
>For any lurkers here, find the articles yourselves about Hector Martin instead of trusting the posts in this thread.
but he is right though?

>>105767214
Sadge to see them this old.
But cool to see them together.

>>105767241
[spoiler]Find the articles yourself[/spoiler]

>>105767249
I read the lkml when it went down, retard.

>>105767255
nobody here has ever been on lkml because nobody here can read

>>105767229
>Can one ever get UB due to a bug in safe code adjacent to unsafe blocks if they're in the same module?
Only if the unsafe code is unsound. The unsafe code shall be written in a way that you cannot cause undefined behavior from safe code. The safe abstraction you build over the unsafe code should be designed in a way that will uphold all the required invariant, either statically or with runtime checks.

>find the articles yourselves about Hector Martin instead of trusting the posts in this thread
Just read the mailing list. It was just bunch of emails.

>>105767229
all rust code is ub because it has no standards

>>105767265
>I have never been on lkml because I can't read

>>105767292
sorry dont know what your post says

>>105767288
And no compiler supports standard C++

>>105767311
wrong and modules are used in microsoft

>>105767324
Which C++ compiler covers all the features from the newest standard?

>>105767255
https://archive.ph/uLiWX
https://archive.ph/rESxe

>>105767346
That's the posts Martin got criticized for. What are you trying to say?

>>105767346
yes, the shitter tantrum is why Linus dressed him down.

>>105767273
>Only if the unsafe code is unsound. The unsafe code shall be written in a way that you cannot cause undefined behavior from safe code. The safe abstraction you build over the unsafe code should be designed in a way that will uphold all the required invariant, either statically or with runtime checks.
And this is why Rust may be more difficult to avoid UB in than C++.
Fools like you don't even seem to know what the actual rules and issues are.
FR

>>105767364
>>105767367
>Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect.
>Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down.

>>105767377
non sequitur

>>105767392
yes, the shitter tantrum is why Linus dressed him down.

>>105767346
>>105767392
https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292
From Linus Torvalds <>
Date Thu, 6 Feb 2025 09:58:36 -0800
Subject Re: On community influencing (was Re: [PATCH v8 2/2] rust: add dma coherent allocator abstraction.)


On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 at 01:19, Hector Martin <marcan@marcan.st> wrote:
>
> If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does,
> because I'm out of ideas.

How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you.

You think you know better. But the current process works.

It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect.

However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not
want to have anything at all to do with your approach.

Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social
media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell
wasn't the solution to politics.

Technical patches and discussions matter. Social media brigading - no
than\k you.

Linus

>>105766995
>Almost everything going on in a kernel is unsafe
I saw this paper recently:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.03876
This is a kernel written in Rust, about 100k lines total. It's divided into two parts, called "OSTD" and "services"/"client". OSTD has unsafe code for manipulating page tables and such, but wraps it all in safe abstractions; the client calls those APIs but has no unsafe code of its own. OSTD makes up only 14% of the kernel. So 86% of what's going on in this kernel is safe.

>>105767483
>Yuke Peng, Hongliang Tian, Zhang Junyang, Ruihan Li, Chengjun Chen, Jianfeng Jiang, Jinyi Xian, Xiaolin Wang, Chenren Xu, Diyu Zhou, Yingwei Luo, Shoumeng Yan, Yinqian Zhang

>>105767483
What percentage of unsafe is unsafe though? I feel like it's easy to write C that's 86% safe.

>>105767346

>Okay I literally just started this privately and the first 3 names involved are all people named variants on "Christ". Maybe there's a pattern here... religion secretly trying to sabotage the Linux kernel behind the scenes???
>Edit: /s because apparently some people need it.

People talk too much.

>>105767516
>it's easy to write C that's 86% safe
wrong

>>105767521
This graph shows percentage of CVEs, not LoC like you were initially bringing up.

>>105767516
unsafe is unsafe. Did you mean unsound?

>>105767521
desu Microsoft uses C++ mostly.

sometimes I try to actually read Cnile opinions, but then I remember they don't even have namespaces, and their macros require a backslash on every newline
lmfao

>>105767516
Maybe clearer to say: 86% of the code is statically checked for memory safety by the Rust compiler. The remaining 14% is checked manually or with tests + valgrind, as is typically done for C

>>105767397
Learn2write Rust bro.

>>105767550
>unsafe is unsafe. Did you mean unsound?
I was trying to be clever, a classic blunder

>>105767560
That makes more sense, I guess my thought is just that in a certain sense, you only really need one faulty line of code to be a problem to result in a catastrophe.
Honestly I object to the description of any language as safe, because I don't really think that is something you can guarantee, borrow checker or not.

>>105767588
What?

>>105767483
The work might be good or great, I don't know, but, does it use no_std? And if yes, how do they prove the absence of stack overflows in their safe code? To avoid UB?

>>105767589
NTA, but goals of tools like Rust or any static analysis really, is so you can reduce the surface of potential bugs to small, manually checked pieces of code. It both decreases chances of making mistakes and makes it easier to debug if you happen to make one.

>>105767627
ctrl + f stack overflow

>It is also the next topic of discussion in the Unsafe Code Guidelines. In particular, references must be aligned and dereferenceable, even when they are created and never used.
This feels tricky.

>>105767627
Just read the paper. They talk about it.

>>105767644
Kek

>>105767654
Yeah, unsafe Rust has a lot more potential sources of UB than C, due to all the value invariants for various types. Even raw pointers have some now - *mut dyn Trait is required to have a valid vtable pointer for Trait (though the data pointer can still be anything)

>>105767638
That I can respect, but part of me thinks that the 'safe' branding stuff is itself dangerous. I don't really have an argument for it, it's just my gut, so take it with a grain of salt.

>>105767654
Just avoid casting pointers to references. If you want to make a reference, just reference some existing, well-aligned data.

>>105767693
Rust is not what coined the term. Java has been the memory safe language for decades. They are called safe because language's semantics are designed in such a way that you are unlikely to accidentally cause undefined behavior. This is in contrast to languages like C or C++, where each standard function has list of dos and donts that you gotta follow or bad things will happen.

>>105767666
>>105767483
>Finally, while language-level UBs are effectively addressed by Rust’s safety guarantees, UBs stemming from execution environments or CPU architectures remain unresolved in exist￾ing Rust-based OSes. For example, a malicious device could corrupt kernel memory via DMA [44] or spoof interrupts to manipulate CPU trap handlers [63]. Similarly, a stack over￾flow could compromise the execution environment—an issue beyond the detection capabilities of safe Rust.
>Lesson Learned: Rust OSes should safeguard against UBs not only at the language level but also at the architec￾tural and environmental levels.
Am I getting this right? The paper itself claims that its safe Rust code can have UB bugs?

Authors are honest and possibly very competent, not what I usually see from Rust developers.

>>105767495
I guess China no 1. USA might need Taiwan to keep the USA afloat scientifically.

>>105767768
>Am I getting this right?
no
>The paper itself claims that its safe Rust code can have UB bugs?
wrong

>>105764082 (OP)
Lmao, delusion. Rust is more adopted by mainstream than ever before. You nocoders lost. Just recently 1Password and Disney+ announced their adoption of it into their main codebase.

>>105767782
>Arewedisneyyet.rs
No other language has acolytes who say "our language has some niche uses, so it is not totally trash".

None.

>>105767780
Explain puhleeze.

>>105767768
>The paper itself claims that its safe Rust code can have UB bugs?
No. It says that external factors can affect Rust software in a way that invalidates the guarantees.

In other word, even if the language guarantees that something will happen, it can't do anything about a screwdriver jammed right into your motherboard.

>>105767816
ctrl + f stack overflow
there are three matches. You only read the paragraph containing the first match.

>>105767823
Can no_std safe Rust have UB? For instance due to stack overflow? Or is that defined away as "external factors", despite being a programming software bug?

>>105767843
https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/embedded-book/intro/no-std.html#overview

>>105767832
If a bug in safe Rust causes a stack overflow, and causes UB that way, is it always fair to attribute that to environment and not a UB bug in the safe Rust code? Sure, you can classify stack overflow as environmental, but the cause of that UB bug was still the safe Rust code in this imagined case.

>>105767856
I guess no_std safe Rust can have UB then.

>>105767882
you didn't read it

>>105767899
You can also cause UB in Rust with std by opening /proc/self/mem and writing to it.

>>105767905
Lol

>>105767919
That's a bit more involved than many types of stack overflow. I can see the environmental argument a bit better there.

>>105764181
you're way too optimistic about what indians can wrap their heads around

>>105765679
What problem do you see?

>>105765755
>You have to resort to putting a lot of stuff in global, static arrays and using unsafe blocks when interacting with it
>implementing your own garbage collector with Rc/Arc
>using rc -> may as well use c++
ou've either never used it, or you're just fucking dumb man

>>105765780
hi pajeet

>>105767899
>>105767943
Some of the guarantees obviously rely on the operating system and runtime. Rust is not a managed language, it can run on bare metal and then it's up to you to ensure that this interaction will properly. Rust can ensure that the interactions within the language will be valid, but it can't really analyze what is happening outside of it.

>>105765824
>>105768192
Why did Microsoft go with Go instead of Rust for its Typescript compiler port?

>>105768256
>Why did Microsoft go with Go instead of Rust for its Typescript compiler port?
Because it's more similar to JS than Rust, you illiterate retard?

Are you so low IQ to think that choosing one tool for the job over the other, immediately deprecates the other tool for all cases?

>>105766464
So you didn't make your own engine. You used Bevy.

>>105768256
Because they are bunch of webfags who want to rewrite existing typescript codebase without changing it to much. Typescript is much more similar to Go than it is to Rust. Moving to Rust would require them to rethink some parts of the code and they would have to learn a new language that is very different from what they are used to and frankly quite difficult. Go is more realistic option.

>>105768269
I am the anon who claimed to made your own engine. That anon is not me. I am >>105766385

>>105768254
Typical code bugs that cause stack overflow usually feel very "inside" the language, though.

>>105768275
>your own
*my own

>>105768256
This retard is funny (and possibly from New Delhi). He fails to answer any questions, thinks the use of RC equates to "use C++ instead", thinks that shared mutable access to a resource means you need "global, static arrays and unsafe blocks".

Must be sad being that useless, anon

>>105768268
Is Rust not in a good position to support the kind of code architecture that the Typescript compiler had? Unlike Go?

(Oh he mad, he big mad)

>>105768287
I think you're mixing up at least two, possibly more, people.

>>105768277
Yes, but you can't analyze this statically(unless you ban recursion) and runtime guards are generally implemented on the operating system level. If you are not relying on the operating system you gotta implement this yourself. Just like in my example, if you are not relying on C runtime to launch your main you have to implement application's exit routine yourself.

>>105768270
>require them to rethink some parts of the code
Why? How much of the architecture, design and code would have to be rethought?

>>105768304
Hi jeet. I'm responding to whoever is behind these two posts:
>>105768287
>>105765755

idc if it's two people. they're retarded

>>105768293
Rust is a systems programming language. JS and Go are managed, GC-languages. The kind of code you write in JS might not be easy to translate to systems programming languages.
This is nothing Rust specific, C or C++ would have similar problems.

>>105768327
meant
>>105768256

not
>>105768287

>>105768312
See >>105768333
>How much
Enough to make them choose Go instead.

>>105764082 (OP)
Maybe it is.
say what you want, but I liked Cargo.
This might sound weird but Rust was my first language, reason being "The Book" was available free of cost on the rust website.
I don't why and how it became the troon language

>>105768293
Calm down rajesh.

>Is Rust not in a good position to support the kind of code architecture that the Typescript compiler had? Unlike Go?
Go was better suited to replace the TypeScript compiler because its closer to TS/JS. To translate this to words you'll understand: banana look like cucumber, not melon. easier to paint banana green and call cucumber, harder to paint melon yellow and call banana

understand saar?

>>105768312
you really should use the internet to its advantage
https://github.com/microsoft/typescript-go/discussions/411#discussioncomment-12465775

>>105768353
>I don't why and how it became the troon language
it didn't you fucking retard. troons use rust. they tend to be quite vocal about it, especially on "discord" (kys if you frequent discord)

are you the type of person to change what you're using based on a fucking 4chan post? retard?

>windows-rs puts out a 'newsletter'
>more windows kernel modules in rust
>new command line editor for windows, made in rust

what did OP mean by this?

>>105767006
blame header includes and shitty namespacing

underscores being privileged is inherited so they use them for standard lib shit.

>>105768293
>he big mad

fuck off zoomer brained retard pajeet

>>105768327
meant
>>105768327

not
>>105768287

>>105768353
based coder. keep writing software.

>>105768450
Notice how the shitskin tries to resort to this childless little game

To make it clear:
>>105768327
meant
>>105768256

not
>>105768287

>>105768450
>>105768477
>links linking links
no one is reading this shit.
Rust won, by a lot, and it wasn't even close.

>>105764082 (OP)
use case?

>>105768492
filtering indians

>>105768256
why did microsoft wage slave #4234 go with go for some shitty rewrite*?
fixed that for you. M$ isn't a monolith. and by the way, that retard got sacked probably because he shit on C shart.

>>105768504
post salary

>>105768310
That's fair, but it kind of indicates that the promise is not generally viable or possible to uphold for Rust. Other languages would have a hard time of it as well given the constraints. Formal proofs, banning in the language or avoiding/limiting in the code certain constructs as you say, etc., might be options.

>>105768492
same class as C, less bullshit than C++, rich abstractions, easy to use async runtime, can call C ABI trivially, can add dependencies trivially.

it's basically just better C++.

t. Windows Professional dev.

>>105768524
>t. Windows Indian slave #64129

>>105768333
>>105768346
So, the lack of GC hinders Rust as a language option in regards to architecture and design options.

Does the same hold for Rust's borrow checker, as the lack of GC?

>>105768582
Can't tell if bait or just an example of average jeet

>>105768524
>t. Windows Professional dev.
Good on you for using Rust, but what do you mean by "Windows Professional Dev"?

What colour is your skin?

>>105768369
>>105768382
>They needed to port the existing TypeScript codebase, preserving as much of the original structure and semantics as possible. This constraint heavily influenced the language choice.
>Garbage Collection (GC): The TypeScript compiler heavily relies on garbage collection. Go provides automatic memory management with a GC, simplifying the porting process compared to Rust, which would have required significant re-architecting to handle memory management manually.
>Rust's memory management model (borrow checker, lifetimes) would have required a complete rewrite and fundamental changes to the compiler's design.

>>105768582
ye definitely indian. only thing missing is a fingering point upwards as he says "so", and a little head bob.

>>105768387
Are you trains? Trains are cool, they are a great public transit option.

>>105768518
It is viable with the default settings. It's that if you opt-out of certain default things you move some of that responsibility onto yourself. It happens when you write unsafe code blocks, remove c runtime, operating system or other things.

>>105768623
>>They needed to port the existing TypeScript codebase, preserving as much of the original structure and semantics as possible. This constraint heavily influenced the language choice.

>preserving as much of the original structure and semantics as possible. This constraint heavily influenced the language choice.

Are you stupid or retarded?

>>105768542
Indians use C shart or Linux.

>>105768442
Oh oh oh

He popping off

>>105764082 (OP)
Eh, it's a great language imo, especially for systems stuff. Nice ecosystem. Shame the community is so full of troons.

Indians *cannot* use it. I've seen them try, fail and write angry "saars" in Discord communities. Pathetic people

>>105768645
>re-architecting

>>105768678
>he still *can't* understand
you're so fucking stupid pajeet.

>>105764082 (OP)
Rust has been completely OBLITERATED.

>>105768671
Indians are probably some of the most loud and obnoxious at Rust promotion because they can get a wrapper for X and claim credit.

>>105768671
Not Indian, though nice bait into telling you my NPC backstory. Not this time, nuh uh.

>>105768709
ok schizo pajeet

>>105768705
Not trying to catch you out, but can you like some of these wrappers written by pajeets?

It's incredibly obvious when code's jeeted out. They're incapable of writing good code.

Any shilling of Rust by indians can be safely ignored, they don't know what they're talking about

>>105768735
*link some of these

>>105768705
Pajeets can't into Rust. It's a white men's language.

>>105768758
If Rust is white man's language, why is it so brown and dirty?

>>105768758
>>105768766
samefagging retard pajeet

>>105768735
Oh he so mad

>>105768695
How?

Rust is the best language currently available because it filters jeets/cniles immediately. They can't comprehend anything other than structural programming (the most braindead mainstream programming paradigm currently available), anything other than that makes their head hurt. This is why they screech not only about Rust but also about modern C++.

Reminder: C is the first language taught at most universities because of its relatively low complexity. It's been bashed by programmers since its inception for the "worse is better" design mindset. Unix trannies also had a "rewrite in C" campaign and spread C because of the initial open source nature of Unix before it inevitably got pozzed by AT&T.

>>105769150
your mad?
lamao
>nuh wors is bad
ur language is lame
lisptranies lost

>>105769178
Learn English

>>105769259
nah i got the feeling youre gonna learn my creole instead

>>105768310
>you can't analyze this statically
In some cases you can, and those cases can be mighty pains in the ass.
The classic case is building a big singly-linked list (or degenerate tree) and then dropping the whole thing, which can blow your stack up (because of the recursion). Avoiding catastrophe in this situation, especially with multi-color structures (i.e., with the recursion going through several destructors), is a tricky problem; the problem's natural shape is recursive, yet the recursion causes a stack smash.
(Many other languages have equivalent problems. The ones that don't tend to be using full GC in their runtimes, which is definitely the easiest way to fix it; Java and C# coders have it easy.)

>>105769825
Yeah, I have experienced the very same problem in Rust.
vulkano allows you to asynchronously queue multiple operations using GpuFutures which often wrap previous future creating a de facto linked list. GPUFuture is a trait, so the chain is polymorphic. And sometimes when I queued too many things at once I got really random stack overflows that I couldn't understand. This was probably the first time(our of two) I ever had to use debugger in Rust project. It turns out even when monomorphised, without any dynamic dispatch, Rust doesn't allow for tail call optimization, resulting in blowing up the stack. I had to implement a new composite Future type, VecJoin or something that allows you to chain GpuFutures on a Vec.

>>105765577
no, it's perpendicular, baby

>>105765755

Based. Once the problem gets past a point of complexity, you WILL need a garbage collector, and at that point, if your language isn't designed for garbage collection, the complexity of your resulting program (not "problem" but PROGRAM) will go up through the roof.

>>105771966
Linux doesn't need a garbage collector.

>>105764082 (OP)
> finally dead?
feels like it
>>105764115
> things that never happened

>>105769150
> mindless drivel
the rust tranny mental breakdown really is this severe.

israel is a little tied up at the moment

>>105767815
Cope, faggot.

>>105767273

>Only if the unsafe code is unsound. (...) The safe abstraction you build over the unsafe code

Many of the libs your Rust program will use, probably have unsafe sections too.

Some year(s) ago, i think it was the vector Rust code, it was segfaulting under certain conditions.

So yes, safer by C++ but not truly safe. If you want true memory safety you need to use a language where everyting uses GC.

This is the era of fast, concurrent, precise garbage collectors. To turn your back on them and to pretend to have memory safe code at the same time, is an illusion.

>>105772264
Garbage collection doesn't mean the language is safe. Many GC languages that support multithreading can easily manifest data races, something that Rust does prevent because of Send/Sync.
>i think it was the vector Rust code, it was segfaulting under certain conditions.
And JS(v8) had bug in regex implementation that could allow you to do OOB access with possible RCE. Bugs like that can happen with GC as well.

Just make the syntax idiot proofish like swift, go, or kotlin and figure out an elegant way to put in the missing shit
I don’t want to type tons of symbols and having to hit the shift key
I am lazy and people are lazy and it needs to be quick to type and read
If you had good syntax nobody would complain even with the .gov recommendations
how can everyone involved be so smart yet so dumb

>>105768834
I think he was making a Blumpf joke.

>>105772447
>just build mythical grammars that knows what I mean bro
what the fuck retarded comment is this?

>>105764159
Youtube is simply not the place where you can find meaningful info about any topic, developers wouldn't post there, let alone those employed at relevant companies.

>>105772264
>but not truly safe.
Why do midwits keep saying this like it means something?
Having sex is unsafe, but you can take mitigating measures to drastically reduce risk. Living in safe rust is basically the same experience. If you need more, you have to take extra precautions... Just like with sex.

This is how the real world actually works.

I feel like it wouldn't trigger the autists so much if they just called it "automatically checked" and "manually checked".

>>105764082 (OP)
>seeing a massive decline in online shilling for it
the shilling was entirely propped up by USAID money, unironically

>>105772537
I almost fell for it and started to learn programming with Rust. I am saved.
Now that I am free of memes, what language should I learn lads?

>>105772537
>shilling was entirely propped up by USAID money
[citation needed]

>>105767265
>nobody here has ever been on lkml because nobody here can read
I've been on the lkml many times and I can read. Still don't understand the fuck what they are going on about though.

>>105765496
Safety and typing won't fix bad design and sloppy programming. It's unnecessary additional overhead.

>>105772480
Graydon dislikes the syntax of Rust.

>>105772551
Depends on your goals, needs, specific project requirements, career strategy, etc. Give us more information.

>>105772551
SQL and Go
note that SQL is first.

>>105765824
I'd love to see the code if it's public
sounds interesting

>>105774741
https://github.com/funmaker/Project39-ar
Here you go. I think you can check "sandbox" branch for more concrete demo that has some gmod-like stuff set up. It should work on both Linux and Windows. Use --help to list all options or check/modify config.toml for defaults. You might want to run it with --novr --camera dummy or something like that if you do not have VR set up.

>>105771966
dumbass

>>105772264
>If you want true memory safety you need to use a language where everyting uses GC.
filtered by rust

>>105772551
Rust

>>105774029
>Safety and typing won't fix bad design and sloppy programming.
No one said it would fix bad design and sloppy programming.

>It's unnecessary additional overhead.
Fuck off pajeet

>>105774245
>>105774309
decided to go with C++, I already know SQL