Thread 105824789

is this correct?

does it matter, they are all the same? the only difference between any distro is the package manager and repos. if u disagree with this please state where i am wrong.

>>105824801
Init.
Dumb shit

>>105824789 (OP)
No it's outdated. Archinstall made Arch easy.

>>105824860
To get the base system ready? Sure but you still have to manually configure any deviation from that, also you need to be conscious about updates (reading changes and not delaying them much).

>>105824841
you can change that. its not backed into the distro.

>>105824801
They all use the same interchangeable components but op specifically pointed to gradient in existing frameworks of configuration. You can technically say that linux from scratch is the same as ubuntu but it's like saying that the separate pieces you need to assemble a pc is the very same as a brand oem pc, you're not wrong but you're also missing entirely the point.

>>105824789 (OP)
Slackware and Arch are very easy if you follow the instructions and use your brain a little
LFS is not OS
Fedora and OpenSUSE easy distros for beginners

>>105824898
i merely made the point to discourage distro wars, as they are reductive and repetitive.

>>105824789 (OP)
Is there any point moving beyond beginner friendly distros? They do the same things as other distros while being more comfortable and less frustrating to use.

>>105825145
Yes if you want something specifically modeled on your personal usecase and workflow that you want to keep consistent. For example my distro of choice is debian/devuan with which i have build over time my personal configuration, basically after installing the os i just run a script i made that installs and configures all the software components i use in one go.

>>105824801
By far the biggest difference between those is the support, and Ubuntu is the one that stands out the most.

>>105824869
What do you need to configure?

>>105825408
Why not if i can?

>>105825408
Sorry i was in a hurry and i read your post as "WHY you need to configure" instead of "what" i need to configure so i replied with this >>105825445

In short i configure (import the confutation) of some iptables profiles, shared directories, desktop conf, some firejail .locale, software profiles and some minor tweaks.

>>105825463
Nevermind, i'm posting from chance and i'm having the whole thread jumbled and fucked up, i'm not sure to wh the fuck i'm even replying to.

>>105824789 (OP)
>Beginner friendly includes beginner's traps like Ubuntu, Pop, etc. that will only discourage or limit you
>Intermediate contains specialist Arch derivatives like Manjaro that can cause unexpected behavior and will be more annoying to use than just Arch
>Hard mode includes the most well-documented, handholdy distro just because it doesn't launch a GUI installer for you and you need to read in order to know what to copy and paste

>>105824789 (OP)
[Hard Mode]
Arch is easy, you just need to read. Arch is not DIY and never was. Installing packages is not DIY. It's more like making a dockerfile interactively.
Gentoo is Gentoo. DIY with a dependency management and blacklist/whitelist framework.
Slackware if installed as full install (recommended) is easy.
Slackware if installed barebones is DIY without a framework, basically gentoo stage3 without dependency management so LFS like but without the book listing you dependencies for packages you are missing in base install.
LFS is no dependency management but with a list of dependencies in the book so you actually have something.
There is also CRUX which is like Arch with everything as package ports and BSD like configuration which makes it easier than all of Slackware, Gentoo, LFS for setting minimal system.
Nix is contrarian bullshit. If they only build packages that way it would make sense, but configuring everything in their weird functional language is pure autism, non-portable bullshit. It's like making emacs config in org-mode level autism.
GUIX SD - Nix with less retarded language, but with no proprietary blob retarded philosophy so additional hoops like with Debian and proprietary drivers that used to be a thing. I will never understand what is wrong with these people that makes these policies. Majority of people will install these proprietary blobs and that policy doesn't make sense for most. If you are special snowflake you can replace non-free stuff on your own.
>>105824801
In one distro someone decides for you how everything works like Ubuntu forcing Snap on you and most popular distributions forcing systemd on you. In others you have a choice between some components. In yet others you have almost or exactly full control over everything.

the only distros that matter are mint debian and arch

>>105824789 (OP)
there is no such thing as an intermediate linux.
computer users of intermediate skill level are proficient in solving GUI problems, which Linux has almost no affordance for. Linux has a clean beginner/experienced split. if you're incapable of using a computer, you can use Firefox in Ubuntu just as well as you can on Windows, with less chance of downloading an .exe full of tool bars. if you're skilled at using the cli and scripts, you're fine too. If your sound stops working and you'd like to restart the process without using the terminal? well, you're fucked. you can look and look and look, and you'll never find a way to do that. nobody saw fit to make that a graphical option.

>>105824789 (OP)
Intermediate as a category hasn't existed for a long time. Linux sint really something that has to be learnt anymore.

>>105824789 (OP)
ftfy

>>105825767

AFAIK There was a 'task manager'-esque GUI application on Ubuntu.

>>105825145
Yes, to get a decent terminal-based workflow instead of using retarded GUIs. +performance and minimalism, if you're into that.

The intermediate tier should just be Arch and nothing else, the advanced are okay but extremely niche, except for Nix, which is kinda like the Rust of distros.

>>105826190
>performance and minimalism
>here bro just install neovim with these 200 plugins to get a decent terminal ide

>>105825767
I haven't used it because I just use the CLI, but https://apps.kde.org/systemdgenie/ should be able to do exactly what you describe using GUI. There are gnome versions of this type of application too I believe.

arch isn't hardmode anymore. In fact it's probably the best beginner option
>archinstall is less of a hassle than even ubuntu's installer
>packages aren't outdated
>perfectly stable kde environment without effort, while still letting you customize the things you care about like your filesystem and whatnot
only issue imo is that some software only release .deb files (mullvad, i'm talking about mullvad, release official flatpaks already)

>>105824789 (OP)
they fucking forgot debian

>>105826428
> install 200 plugins to make VSCode bearable
Yes, Neovim is turning into VSCode now, that's why I moved to Kakoune.

All a decent IDE needs is to move around files and text and have basic lsp functionality. Need more? Script it

>>105826693
emac

>>105824801
Some of those distributions support trannies, DEI and care only about money (for their agenda driven initiatives) other distributions are free from the politics, so no they are not the same.

Fedora is about as easy to install and use as Ubuntu and Mint imo. If you don't know a command or how to write a script for something there might be fewer people but a chatbot can generate commands and create scripts for you.

>>105824789 (OP)
>beginner friendly
ubuntu
>hard mode
debian
arch
fedora
suse
>useless
everything else

>>105824789 (OP)
>Qubes OS
>Based on Fedora - Security
No it's not
Qubes is a Xen distribution, it's not even Linux

>Fedora
>Intermediate
huh?

I'd count as beginner any distro where you can comfortably do everday stuff without opening terminal.

>>105826931
Technically that's any distro, including arch (if someone else installs it for you)

>>105826931
Terminal is the most beginner friendly thing out there when working with a trusted source.
There's no endless bullshit of being told to navigate from launch program A to go to Menu B Submenu C where you need to click Radiobutton N, launch program I, go to menu G so that you can launch program G and lower slider E before you can finally accomplish task R, you just copy and paste, filling in blanks where appropriate.
The only people complaining about terminal are people who get Youtube revenue based on the length of their videos.

>>105824872
it is, retrad

>>105824789 (OP)
where's debian lmao shit

>>105827360
in the museum grandpa

>>105824789 (OP)
>Solus
how old is this pic? also where's SteamOS?

>>105827360
this is a chart for desktop distros.

>>105827395
it's from like 5 years ago, made by /ourguy/

>>105827489
rip, I miss him every day

>>105827523
thats a she now

>>105827395
SteamOS falls under Arch DIY Hard Mode. It requires a specific hardware setup (NVME drive+AMD GPU). Meanwhile something easy like Ubuntu can just work on Nvidia or anything.

>>105824860
What's the point of using a script for something so trivial idgi.

>>105824789 (OP)
LFS is the only "hard" distribution. The rest are like 2/10 difficulty, Mint/Ubuntu/Fedora being 1/10.

The only people who consider Arch to be hard are retards or teenager script kiddies that think using a terminal is impressive. And I use Arch btw

>>105827591
Nothing about LFS is hard, it's just very tedious and manual. If you can install Gentoo you should have no problem installing and using LFS.
Though trying to update anything almost inevitably will become a clusterfuck to the point where a clean install is the only reasonable option. BLFS only provides instructions for some third party software.

>>105824860
My arch install error'ed on me so I started manually installing. Something to do with the repository not being found.

>>105824789 (OP)
i'd argue not using arch is hard mode, especially if you'll be using 3rd party packages a lot.
Nothing compares to the AUR, and adding repos in debian-based is terrible.
and although you have SO for issues, 99% of your arch problems have been posted before + the GOAT arch wiki

>>105824789 (OP)
hard mode is correct.
But everything with an installer that loads into a desktop environment is pretty much the same difficulty. It's just preference at that point

>>105827577
manually formatting your drive/partition the first time can be a bit confusing

>>105827732
Lol, I'm using zfs anyway, the script wouldn't do.

>>105824789 (OP)
>Lists Arch and then lists it's forks
>Lists Ubuntu but doesn't list it's upstream/Debian
Nani?

>>105824841
I mean, that'd fall under "package manager and repos" in a sense, wouldn't it? There's init-V and systemd. Just like there is RPM/apt/pacman.

>>105827701
The repo updated before you used it, it should find the keys and update but if they changed the keys location, it'll error.

Unless you're trying to install it in a virtual machine. I have yet to figure out why Arch fucks up in a VM.

>>105825145
You want less OS bloat. Installing Arch or others like it is like installing the retail Windows OS over the OEM "fork"/version of the same Windows.

(and even then you can use Rufus or something to get rid of even more bloat in the retail key. Candy Crush? No thank you.)

>>105827535
Yes, anon was correct in missing HIM every day.

Making it harder to use a tool or utility is the opposite of the point of having a tool or utility

I've built my own "distro", it's not difficult. I had busybox + gcc in / and busybox in initramfs, then few init scripts, fstab, etc... and it booted and worked fine. Gentoo is basically the same but it has a full root and init and whatever baked in, you just unpack a tarball to / and it works after you do some configuration and compiling.

>>105826779
what did he mean by this?
>>105826931
i use the terminal weekly on macOS

>>105824789 (OP)
it should be
easy mode: every distro with a normal package manager
medium: linux from scratch, guix
hard: nixos

>>105828915
Thanks for the reply, I don't wxactly remember what it said, just that the repository I selected wasn't found. I understand that repositories come, go, and update, but since I am familiar with none of them I just chose one at random. I guess updating the list would be wise before doing it again but I already established encryptions on my main partitions, unless Archinstall can work with partitions I already made maybe I want to just see the manual method through. If nothing else I'm learning a great deal.

>>105824789 (OP)
None of those are hard mode aside from LFS and Gentoo, and gentoo allows precompiled packages now. What a waste of pixels.

>>105824789 (OP)
archlinux on desktop
debian on laptop
rocky on server

>>105827535
Idiot

>>105825767
There's a meaningful difference between "can use the terminal to follow instructions, manage files, edit simple configs, and find and install packages" and "writes scripts to autoconfigure his hyper-specific setup, compiles custom versions of everything from source for his usecase, barely uses the DE for anything, uses Vim for everything from coding to novel writing." I'd call the former the intermediate Linux user.

>>105830152
memorizing commands is 100% not intermediate, knowing certain quick codes to do some copying and pasting of files is intermediate, knowing curl regex etc is advanced.

>>105824860
why use Arch install when EndeavourOS exist?

>>105830416
Arch install sucks and doesn't do a good job at installing properly, the installation breaks down after a few updates and endeavourOS is made by a bunch of pajeets to create some kind of startup out of an arch wrapper.If you don't wanna be handheld by people who wanna make money from you just install it urself. LLMs plus the arch wiki have made this trivial to do from the terminal.

yes

>>105824789 (OP)
>you're using your pc
>training for sysadmin
>retard
Even Linus uses Fedora
>he tested debian and didn't like it

>>105832538
>Even Linus uses Fedora
who cares? answer without sounding jeet

>>105827330
depends on the distro. some let you chose init

>>105824789 (OP)
>>105824986
>>105825926
Manjaro is basically Arch + an installer.

>>105832643
>he mad
lmao

>>105824986
This. Arch is neither hard nor beginner friendly.

"easy" distros like Mint can be just as hard as you want
nothing is stopping you from opening the terminal and copy pasting shit from google

>>105824986
>SUSE
>beginner
shieeeet man u weren't there in 2005 when every key I pressed multiplied by 50

>>105832878
It's pretty easy. I'm a retard, and even I could install it. Honestly, the only annoying bit was dealing with things like drive permissions (media/games drives are formatted ntfs). Sure I fucked up, but once I knew what I was doing, things flowed like water. Heck, even my old ass copy of cs6 works the same as it does on winblows

>>105830152
there is, but it's not the intermediate-expert distinction. particularly when "follow instructions" usually means "copy and paste a command you don't understand and hope it fixes the problem or at the very least, doesn't permanently change anything if it doesn't fix the problem. btw there's no undo command :)"

>>105832672
Manjaro users like to tell themselves that so they can be part of the "I use Arch btw" crowd.

>>105832878
I think Arch is beginner friendly, because the vast majority of issues are documented. If you have a problem you can figure it out and it's also fairly easy to fix pretty much anything.
Compare that to, say, Ubuntu - if you have an issue on Ubuntu, like say a missing wifi card driver God help you. You're going to need to do shit that would fit in on Arch yet all the information about how to do it is a couple of years out of date and full of 404 links so you pretty much have to come up with everything yourself.

I think Arch is unironically more beginner friendly than a lot of distros. Personally I'd sooner get filtered and drop Linux for Windows through Ubuntu/PopOS/Mint than Arch.

>>105824869
>Configure
Anon it's just as easy as Ubuntu. You can literally prove yourself wrong by just installing Arch with the script. I got a usable desktop, laptop, and server in about 20 minutes on each of them. Without having to configure shit besides installing a web browser and Steam on the desktop and laptop.

>>105835306
It really depends on how much reading and learning the user wants to do.

You want to read and learn a lot and do a lot of stuff yourself? -> Arch
You want shit to work and be productive straight away? -> Mint / Ubuntu

>>105835330
Yeah but the problem with that is Linux. Linux doesn't "just work". Sooner or later, you'll be doing all that reading.

>>105835330
If you don't want to read, youtube is a great resource - so long as you can get over the poos that infest the space

>>105835364
Because windows doesn't require reading when something fucks up

If niggers just cut 50% of their time spend on distro hopping and ricing their GUI and instead use it to actually code something new then maybe we could have some decent people here.

>>105835418
People will just pretend Windows doesn't have issues because they're already used to it, and also Windows issues are way better documented than most Linux issues. Like I said, if you're using arch you have good documentation. If you're using anything else, not so much. You can even use Arch documentation to troubleshoot other distros, but it's less reliable and who would even come up with that as a newbie?

>>105835306
how is solving your oen problems begginer friendly you retard, begginer friendly is there not being problems at all or solving on it's own with updates.
>>105835434
50% rice 50% arguing online over petty shit like systemd and wayland 0% fixing issues. Recently I found a 10 year old issue on gnome of someone asking to add fuzzy search to the default searchbar. 10 fucking years for a fuzzy search

>>105835449
Give me an example of a Windows issue that someone would need documentation if they werent "used to windows".

>>105836211
>10 year old issue on gnome
If you chose to use gnome then you have no right to complain.
Otherwise, have my condolences.

>>105836231
Making a laptop not wake up on mouse movement. Not only not documented, but also impossible, apparently.

>>105832651
choosing an init is only as useful as the rest of the software in the repositories shipping service/startup scripts/etc for that given init system, and working correctly with it (in certain cases).
even if you manage to build something other than systemd and replace it in your arch installation, for example, nothing will work unless you also do the work of manually converting all the scripts and infrastructure to the new init system.
so yes, it is baked into the distro

>>105836211
There isn't a single OS that has no problems except maybe MacOS.

>>105836384
I believe that if you change the power setting for sleep, you can make it not wake on mouse movement. ironically, there's a linux tech tips video about laptop battery life during sleep and they found out there's a way to make it behave like a mac by changing some barely documented setting.
it's ridiculous how it would never really stop doing stuff, causing it to attempt suicide when you put it inside a bag, and there's no easy way to change that behavior.

>>105836231
Since you didn't specify it also had to be poorly documented, example: How do I create a local account? It's well documented but someone new to Windows wouldn't know that.
Another example that's well documented: "How do I run this game, it keeps giving me missing d3d9_42.dll error."
You wouldn't figure any of this shit out without looking it up unless you already know what is going on.

Windows is full of all kinds of noob traps, most of them are well documented though.

>>105825145
No, faggots saying otherwise would be hard pressed to have an actual example of what they’re talking about when they speak in hypotheticals about the benefits. There’s no reason you should waste time with any of the meme Linux operating systems unless you ACTUALLY have a business use case where minmaxing efficiency or performance is going to save your company money. Running Arch or Gentoo only makes sense if you’re a developer or a Linux hobbyist and you’re doing it for the experience and not the function.

>>105837634
Arch has way better hardware support than those so-called "beginner friendly" distros.

>>105837671
until you get hit with
>upgrade requires manual intervention

>>105837671
Arch Linux doesn’t have better hardware support by default it just ships newer kernels and drivers sooner. Beginner-friendly distros bundle more firmware and proprietary drivers out-of-the-box, so they usually work better on more hardware with less effort.

>>105837690
Being a beginner doesn't mean being completely unable to go to a website or typing commands in a console. It's not a mental disability or anything like that.
I got hit by "manual intervention" on Ubuntu of all things. My WiFi card wasn't detected. The fix for it was "Install shady package from AUR tier" in terms of difficulty, except unlike the AUR there were 0 instructions provided how to install the official driver package and the only instructions that did exist online lead to a labyrinth of 404 errors.

>>105837759
that's not what manual intervention is.
it's pacman homiciding your system because you didn't check out archlinux.org before you did -Syu

>>105837771
Pacman just fails to do anything when manual intervention is required.

>>105824986
>qubes not hard mode
OP chart is 1/10. Yours is 0/10 chart

>>105837843
>With the recent split of kwin into kwin-wayland and kwin-x11, users running the old X11 session needs to manually install plasma-x11-session, or they will not be able to login.
https://archlinux.org/news/plasma-640-will-need-manual-intervention-if-you-are-on-x11/

>>105838076
Nobody who is new to Linux runs KDE on X11.

>>105824801
>but I installed Arch myself, btw
These are the same manchildren who code and call themself a engineer thinking they are some genius

>>105838137
nice moving the goal post.
doesn't change the fact that pacman can and will leave your system in an invalid state in every scenario other than when an explicit package conflict is detected

>>105838165
What even is an engineer? Someone with a degree or certification or license or what? Unfortunately it’s such a nebulous term and what constitutes an “engineer” is what people agree it is so if people have engineer in their job title they are one. Blame the mechanical engineers who build machines for not gatekeeping that term harder, it’s not anyone’s fault it became the de facto term across multiple industries for “guy who makes and designs stuff”.

>>105838168
Arch is hardly the only distro where an update/upgrade has bricked the system anyway.

>>105838209
but it's the only one where the maintainers break people's installations consciously, because of muh read our website.
in the example I provided, canonical would 100% just install kwin-x11 for everyone and you can remove it yourself to save 300KiB of disk space if you want to.

>>105838228
true not making a meta package to handle the upgrade in a sane manner for compatibility is their fault stop breaking your own userspace

>>105824986
Accurate.
And after succesfully installing Gentoo myself, I can definitevely say that it is the superior, White Man's, Operating System.

>>105838247
now, granted, there is a pacman plugin(?) that checks if any new "manual intervention" post was made before you run an upgrade, although I never used it, but it's weird why not even that is included by default or widely known even

>>105824789 (OP)
qubes os isn't hard, it's just unconvinient

You will unironically only need Debian/Devuan, Ubuntu, Mint/LMDE for 90% of cases where you can only need ro replicate your Windows/Mac tasks
Use any other distro once you really need something that nromie OS cant ever provide

>>105838196
coodemonkes really think they make and design stuff, embarrassing

if gentoo is so great where's genthree?

>>105837611
i did this by just clicking buttons that made sense in the control panel, something linux people consider "for toddlers" for some reason.

>Another example that's well documented: "How do I run this game, it keeps giving me missing d3d9_42.dll error."
This is true but isn't game compatibility issues more common on linux systems?
>>105838506
recent kernels....

>>105838626
Sure, but the games are for Windows not Linux. Windows has noob traps on Windows games.

Also you can create users in GUI on Linux too. It's actually easier than Windows. In fact, I've used Windows for 30 years and I haven't the faintest clue on know how you'd make a local user account on Windows 11 without looking it up lmao.

>>105824860
>he doesn't know
lol ur a noob fgt

>>105838575
>genthree
Funtoo, but it's in "hobby mode" now.

>>105838734
I guess if youre used to windows youd know that most of these things live in the control panel, which is the biggest "leap" in logic you need (as in, you need prior knowledeg of this) the rest is just tying "user" on the search box is just clicking around and the button just reveals itself. In linux a lot of times knowing that youre just suppoused to "sudo copy that file into root" or "pin x package" requires many more leaps of logic besides otherwise just straight up looking for a guide online.

>>105838804
Well, think you can create local accounts using lusrmgr.msc
But I have no idea how you'd get to that through UI on Windows 11 and I don't even want to find out since the UI on that is so trash and this probably involves trying to find the old cpl applet.
On Linux (with KDE) you just click "System Settings", then click "Users" and then click "Add New"
Couldn't be easier. Don't need to log into anything. Can just press winkey/super and then type users and press enter too.

I mean sure there are things on Linux that are less intuitive than on Windows, but user management ain't one.

I've used distros from all three modes, Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, MXL, and Arch. Where's my award and complementary gf.