>61 years of the shell
>still no "undo" command, an action available in any competent graphical program
inb4 "b-but you could do something arbitrarily complex that even a GUI wouldn't let you ctrl+z":
that may be true, but it's a remarkably poor excuse for not letting you undo a trivial command with a single keyword.

forget all the basic principles around discoverability, forget the fact users don't generally read manuals and expecting them to is wishcasting, forget that people generally like to have things on screen instead of in their head, junk it all: the single biggest barrier to getting people using the terminal is that it is not forgiving. just like when working with paper, mistakes are permanent - fuck that being able to undo them is one of the major advantages of using a computer, it makes me feel hardcore to be one typo away from catastrophe.

>>105845760 (OP)
>rm -rf
>undo
keklmao
thats not how it works

>>105845760 (OP)
>but it's a remarkably poor excuse for not letting you undo a trivial command with a single keyword.
Who is keeping you from ``undoing'' any command you enter?
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /*

>>105845760 (OP)
>filters insecure users and normalfags
I never noticed how based unix shell is before

>>105845760 (OP)
The shell isn't a program, it's the OS. It opens programs and runs them. If you make a mistake in Microsoft Word you can undo to get it back, but if you accidentally click the icon to open Microsoft Word you can't undo to stop it from opening. So even when Windows is fully focusing on GUI it doesn't have undo either.

>>105845773
Just use a time machine, retard

Go back to r3ddit.

>>105845821
Pretty good explanation. It is the difference between driving a car and changing gears ( you can change the gears back ) or driving the car into a wall.

>>105845822
i cant
i have a restraining order

>>105845773
that not being how it works is precisely the point. rm -rf is one thing, now explain why you can't "undo" mv.

>>105845775
the fact that you can manually undo the action by typing a different command isn't the same as having an undo command. again: in any graphical interface a trivial mistake goes away with ctrl+z.
i can accept that rm -rf is not trivial, i can even accept that rm actually removing things instead of sticking them in the recycle bin is technically not a shell issue even if it's often a pretty bad idea, but i can't accept that absolutely nothing is undoable.

>>105845821
yet when i move a file into a folder in windows, then change my mind, i can hit ctrl+z and it goes back to where it came from instead of requiring me to manually move it back.

i should say: i'm not really arguing that it should be changed in all cases, my argument should be seen more like: isn't it weird that there are a million meme distros out there that'll hide features from the user, but not one person has seen fit to re-do this part of the OS to make it less intimidating? doesn't that highlight some failure to think seriously about what problems the end-user actually faces?

>>105845832
creating the automatic car of linux distros is something a number of people have set out to do, yet they've never seen fit to tinker with the gearbox.

Sorry kid. In the real world you cannot undo your mistakes.

>>105845845
>now explain why you can't "undo" mv.
socioeconomical factors

>you cannot take back a stroke of the brush, or a stroke of the sword

>>105845773
In Windows explorer, you can do ctl z to restore deleted items

>>105845845
>>105845849
more seriously, you could write a shell that does
you could even alias that
you grab your last command from history
then depending on your command you do the appropriate undo
with mv it would be cd then mv back

you might have a harder time with echo, doe
or even better- sed
its destructive. unless you backup the file theres no undoing that

>>105845848
>>105845857
perhaps we should remove the copy command next, since you can't create infinite free copies of things in the real world either. then we could get rid of screens, which are terribly unrealistic, and bring back the teletype. then it'll be obvious why there's no "undo".

>>105845863
>with mv it would be cd then mv back
wtf am i even saying
you just take where you sent the file and mv back to pwd/orig. name

>>105845861
and you can bring back files you deleted with file explorer on loonis
its just that very little can be actually undone so nobody bothered
just dont goof, easy as
re-read what you type before you hit enter

>>105845845
>yet when i move a file into a folder in windows, then change my mind, i can hit ctrl+z and it goes back to where it came from instead of requiring me to manually move it back.
That's not the OS itself doing that, it's the File Explorer. I doubt your Ctrl+z would work if you closed the File Explorer before hitting that. So a single program inside the OS has the ability to undo. There's also undo in Vim even when opened through the shell. So if you would use a program that stays open to move your files then it could have the undo function in shell. But if it runs and returns back to the shell then it's like doing something in File Explorer and closing the window after you're done.

>>105845882
On windows, the file explorer is part of explorer.exe That also contains the destop, window composition and every thing else. It is basically part of the os.

>>105845845
you can add as a shell alias a script somewhere that wraps /usr/bin/mv keeping track of 'mv' command arguments $@ before executing them and writes to a text file a string of reversal commands per each interactive shell instance, you can then map to ctrl-whatever in .bashrc/.zshrc your mvunretard() { "$(tail < "/tmp/muh_mvstack_$(tty)"; }) command

which is basically the same as hitting up arrow going up one command in history and flipping arguments as >>105845870 said

there is also a $HISTFILE file where you can observe all your fuckups

>>105845845
>now explain why you can't "undo" mv.
Using mv, it is possible to overwrite a file. There is no command for the shell to reasonably recover the overwritten file.

>>105845760 (OP)
this would only make it so much worse for the type of user that would want an 'undo' option.
Once that goes wrong, say you have permissions to do but not to undo (or part of it), those users will be even more confused becauye they never needed to understand what they are doing.

>>105845921
What's odd is that despite this, Powershell also lacks an undo command

>>105845972
dont fuck with the cli if you dont know what youre doing i guess
and im ok with that. i never thought "i really would like an undo function with my shell"

Wait I'm confused, is the op talking about an undo in the text on cli... or undo as in "undo the command pressed ENTER on" in the latter, then that's retarded.

There is an undo it's called "the principle of never fucking use sudo" ... it's better that a command run and fail without sudo. Stick to this and you won't make undoable mistake. It's served me well all these years: if I haven't seen the command run in `--dry-run` or read the man page I aint running it.

>>105846014
>Stick to this and you won't make undoable mistake
anon, the entire idea is if you run into a tedious issue, like a package problem, you can just easily undo and deal with it later. Or potentially have to fix less problems.
>just don't make mistakes XD
isn't an argument

>>105846014
>>105845983
>you actually dont need that
foss in a nutshell

>>105846057
>powershell is foss
no, its just the industry standard
shared by many industries
when you cut a plank you cannot ctrl z lmao

>>105846066
when you delete geometry in blender you can ctrl+z

>>105846057
use case for quality of life?

>>105846072
yeah but blender is a very reduced program compared to an os
also you dont have the concern of going as fast, as you can, as light as feasible

>>105846066
> powershell is foss
correct
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/powershell-is-microsofts-latest-open-source-release-coming-to-linux-os-x/

>>105846099
lmao didnt know that
anyhoo, yeah
if youre a retard dont cli
and no undo is coming just git gut faggot

>>105845773
>>105845775
operating systems need to have native git-like version control built in

>>105846108

>>105846122
explain why it's bad

>>105845845
>mv gayporn.gz.part-12 /dev/null
Womp womp.

>>105846124
are you seriously that fucking retarded?
it already exists its called system images

>>105845760 (OP)
Depending on the command, implementing undo would be:
- a leisurely afternoon of implementing helper scripts
- prone to side effects due to other software already acting on the temporary but now-reversed state
- insanely slow to create the backups and expensive to store
- irrelevant because of non-destructive state changes
- impossible due to no access to underlying state to backup or restore it

Just write a script to snapshot your VM every 30 seconds if you're so afraid

>>105846138
images are nothing like a git for a FS.
The main difference being, you could revert without having to stop what you're doing and re-image.

>>105846146
yeah but have you thought how you could achieve that in practice?
the amount of bloat from the backup
the slowdown because you have to create said backups
every single time you do a change to a file

thats even more fucking retarded
this is new levels of retardation tier

>>105846155
>yeah but have you thought how you could achieve that in practice?
binary hashes + granular opt-in
I think solving problems for a more modern approach is a lot better than dragging around a bad foundation from the 1960s.

>>105846168
yeah, do your opt in
and then see how many peopole actually use it because it makes their os run like a tank

you have fuck all idea about what youre talking about because youre tying the speed of your os to the speed of your hard drive
because how are you gonna store the changes otherwise you retard?
>dragging around a bad foundation from the 1960s.
ah, youre one of these lispretards who have fuck all ideas, only expectations they drop on your lap
and then expect YOU to figure shit out

nono, frend
write it yourself
even a fucking proof of concept, which never materializes because theyre all abandoned once the creator realizes how retarded an idea it was

>>105845857
Cringe

>>105845861
No you can't
> shift+del
> ctrl+z
> nothing happens

The "delete" button by itself doesn't actually delete a file, it just moves it to the recycle bin, so the undo there is to just make the move in a separate direction. rm -rf is the equivalent of shift+delete which actually deletes the file and you can't undo that.

>>105845845
>explain why you can't "undo" mv
Because loonix philosophy is that of 1 gazillion microprograms. The shell you type commands into doesn't know how to do anything. When you type "mv" it searches for "mv" and executes a the "mv" binary to move the files. When that program execution finishes, the shell has no context about what the fuck the program actually did so it cannot undo anything. To implement undo you'd have to do something mental like have a dotfile where every command is required to write the command that would undo what it just did, then the "undo" binary would read that file, execute the last command, then remove the last line of the file. Now you have to make sure every single binary you ever execute is emitting the command to reverse it or some flag indicating it cannot be undone, which means cooperation from dozens if not hundreds of binaries.
tl;dr massive design flaw in the design philosophy itself

>>105846235
>massive design flaw in the design philosophy itself
ok
how would you do things, in practice, then
soapbox is yours

>>105846155
>the slowdown because you have to create said backups
>every single time you do a change to a file
dude CoW filesystems are already a thing

>>105846248
>copy on write
another meme buzzword for you

tell me what does it mean to you

>>105846215
Don't most DEs also fake this functionality?
It wouldn't take a genius to make a command line that runs with the same functionality, even a hacky one. Arbitrarily pick some rm commands that actually move things to a temporary directory that'll be cleared at some arbitrary time (since most "undo" commands come within a minute or so, you could clear it hourly, every 6 hours, 12, whenever it's larger than x...) and others that run as expected.

To you this naturally seems insane, but something being insane isn't enough of a reason for it not to exist. Think of how many insane things people create because they're caught up on the idea that what the world needs is Linux for Monkeys, not training wheels for human beings to bridge the gap between Windows and >>105846235

>>105846257
its not insane, its not even hard to do
its just that nobody bothers
and if a functionality is not needed then its not implemented

security 101- if you have less code to audit, you will miss less errors
its not even security related, its just common sense

>>105846155
>>105846251
>reddit typer doesn't understand filesystem basics

>>105846257
>>105846265
however, given the extensibility of shells in general, the user is free to implement their own solution, and even share it
its just that the undo function will not be implemented by the maintainer of the shell proper (apparently)

>>105846267
>shartynegroe
i knew youre a shartypedo because youre profoundly fucking retarded
its just that i wasnt sure

>>105846277
Take your meds, tranny.
This is my second post ITT by the way.

>>105846272
>shells
>extensibility
you only need to write a script for this, you can make it systemwide too, lmao

>>105846284
>
>calls you a trany

>>105846292
why are you screenshotting and saving those kinds of posts?

>>105846291
yeah
i just fuckken love cli, you can do whatever you want with it
its a keystone of the whole ecosystem

>>105846298
Because he has to prove that he posts there while accusing those who do not.

>>105846244
Wangblows already did it by making the always-running explorer.exe the expected way for human users to interact with the file system. Ostensibly it keeps a stack of whatever file system manipulations the user has done which can all be undone until such time as the user ends the process. If any operation cannot be undone it alerts the user first.
It cannot be done in any reasonable way if every single file system manipulation is expected to be its own binary execution. Of course if OP is asking for a global undo for ALL programs that's just retarded. You can't press ctrl+z on Windows and have it uninstall a Steam game, for example.

>>105845760 (OP)
>remarkably poor excuse for not letting you undo a trivial command with a single keyword.
but if your simple command is "wipe the disk and replace it with all zeros", how exactly are you supposed to undo it? it's a very straightforward command. it's also completely irreversible due to hardware limitations. how exactly do you propose this command be made reversible?
>don't allow the command
see, now we're getting somewhere. you want people to hold your little babby hand so you're not allowed to do anything the developers of the program cannot reverse. is that it? did I get it right?

>>105846298
to make you re-instate a site wide captcha because you want to protect your reputation, obviously

>>105846315
>Of course if OP is asking for a global undo for ALL programs that's just retarded. You can't press ctrl+z on Windows and have it uninstall a Steam game, for example.
thats more or less what the discussion has turned into

and undoing the equivalent of explorer.exe would be trivial, bc what it does?
mv
rm
mkdir
touch
thats it

oh, and merging of files
but thats mv evendoe i never used it that way to be honest

>>105846235
>The shell you type commands into doesn't know how to do anything. When you type "mv" it searches for "mv" and executes a the "mv" binary to move the files
how it should be, yes. you have no idea what kind of setup I'm running and I shouldn't have to tell you, just make sure your fucking program supports the filesystem interface.

>>105846355
>program should know which filesystem it writes to
fucking retard

>>105846323
No, you didn't. you substituted "simple" for "trivial" and destroyed the meaning of what OP said, leading to your confusion.
"Wipe the disk and replace it with all zeros" is not a trivial command. "move file.txt into a folder" is a trivial command, so trivial that people ITT have described how you could create your own script to do it.
Although not stated directly, a more reasonable inference is that the standard is "if you can undo it in a GUI, you should be able to undo it in a terminal"

>>105845845
>that not being how it works is precisely the point. rm -rf is one thing, now explain why you can't "undo" mv.
Press the up key.
Swap around the target and destination.

>>105846370
>"move file.txt into a folder" is a trivial command
if it's so trivial, what should it do when file.txt already exists?

>>105846371
realtive paths fuck with this but its not a big problem

>>105846370
>"Wipe the disk and replace it with all zeros" is not a trivial command.
>cat /dev/zero > /dev/device
but it is a trivial command. you specify that you want to overwrite the contents of an entire block device with zero, that's it. there's nothing complex going on there. you get a handle to the device, point to the start, and just run till the end writing a zero in every location.

>>105846381
backup
you try to make it look like its a big deal

are you the same shartyretard from before?

>>105846384
This doesn't zero entire disk if it's a SSD

>>105846388
Backup what? And where? If it's so trivial, why didn't you back it up yourself?

>>105846395
you already have a .trash folder, shartynegroe
whats the problem with having a .backup alongside it?
youre so fucking retarded even your bait is weak

>>105846398
I don't have a .trash directory anywhere.

>>105846405
thats because you use an os made in africa

>>105846407
No it's because I'm not a nigger and don't destroy everything around me.

>>105846370
"Described how you could create your own script to do it." should read "described how you could create your own script to *undo* it."

>>105846381
In a competent system: warn the user that the file already exists, unless part of a script with a flag that specifically goes "ignore that, overwrite it" which was hopefully written by someone who knows what they're doing
In Unix: overwrite it, obviously. If you suffer data loss that's your fault, software should be easy to write not easy to use.

In hacky-imaginary-unix: move the existing file.txt to a temp directory, then move the new file.txt to the destination folder. if the temp directory already contains that file, overwrite it. if the temp directory is full, delete items oldest to newest until there's enough space for file.txt

>>105846384
At the risk of getting tautological: a trivial command is a command that is easy to undo, a simple command is a command that is easy to invoke.

>>105846417
Why should an user be warned? He already told a program to move a file, he knows what he's doing.

>>105846414
>don't destroy everything around me.
>prosneeds to destroy constructive discussion going on around him
and your fukken start menu is written in react

its not made in africa
its an os found on a park bench alongside used syringes and dirty underwear

>>105846427
Make a constructive argument for why you didn't already manually back up everything into a separate disk/machine that's not connected to internet and not even turned on unless you're actively backing things up that you deem to have any sort of value to yourself or others.

>>105846433
>Make a constructive argument for why you didn't already manually back up everything into a separate disk/machine
because im not a complete retard, a concept utterly alien to shartypedos

>>105846437
>This is so valuable to me, that's why I didn't prevent a simple rm -fr or the disk failing from completely losing it all.
You have mental capacity of a nigger.

>>105846420
Because there are cases where assuming the user knows what he's doing is stupid. Why would a user of a beginner distro know what he's doing? Why are there a thousand fake Windows UIs designed to help him, but the minute it comes to the terminal you're bounced back to something that was at the low end of user-friendliness in 1971?

Far too user friendly. Footguns are what makes Linux fun. It's the only way they can feel anything, knowing that at any moment any minor slipup can create a huge mess that they can then solve like a giant sudoku.

>>105846442
Windows exists for retards like you, I will continue assuming that only intelligent people use Linux.

>>105846441
>You have mental capacity of a nigger.
yet youre the one who cant grasp basic english
>nuh backup everything
no, only whats precious
also how the fuck do you concile the fact that you were talking about backuping an mv-overwrite to then digress into discussing backup-storage
other than your profound mental retardation?

>>105846467
So if it was precious, you have backed it up already. Can you explain usecase for protecting files that aren't relevant?

>>105846475
>Can you explain usecase for protecting files that aren't relevant?
>could you explain the usecase for my original point?
yeah no thats trolling outside of /b/
we gotta make some order with you sharty retards in here

Isn't it fun to know many of these things were known as problems before the average /g/ user was born?
https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
>File deletion is forever. Unix has no “undelete” command. With other, safer operating systems, deleting a file marks the blocks used by that file as “available for use” and moves the directory entry for that file into a special directory of “deleted files.” If the disk fills up, the space taken by deleted files is reclaimed.
>Most operating systems use the two-step, delete-and-purge idea to return the disk blocks used by files to the operating system. This isn’t rocket science; even the Macintosh, back in 1984, separated “throwing things into the trash” from “emptying the trash.”
>Tenex had it back in 1974.

But remember, if you think that's how a computer should work, you're a stupid child - you, not the undead zombie-conventions of an OS that was outdated before it was written and which have eaten the brains of everyone to come since

>>105846480
Seems like you cannot provide a single reason for a system to protect files that weren't relevant enough for you to back up manually.

You heard it here first
Because of retarded niggers like OP, we shouldn't be allowed to simply tell the computer to do something (like launch a program or write to a file)
Instead we need complicated state-tracking overhead

>>105846487
i mean
hes a sharty retard
since when do they come up with anything relevant?

>>105846481
Measure 10 times, cut once has been known for milleniums, but somehow this is a problem to computer retards.

>>105846481
On most desktop environments if I highlight a file on my linux desktop or file manager and press the del key, it moves to the trash directory, which I can view and move things out of if I change my mind. If I press shift+del it'll prompt me if I want to permanently delete the file, which is also a windows feature. It is only if I open a shell and type "rm [filename]" that it will be deleted forever with no confirmation prompt.
On windows, if I open cmd.exe and type "del [filename]", the same thing happens.

>>105846492
i feel unjustly targeted
but then i also worked in construction, maybe theres really something with the limp-wrists

>>105846503
If I hit my finger with a hammer, I can't just undo the action. So I simply don't hit my finger with a hammer.

>>105846487
You're jumping to stupid conclusions to find excuses to get mad.
Nobody says "we" shouldn't be allowed to do something. OP is entirely about the desirability of an "undo" feature. Undo lets you do whatever you want - it just lets you undo it again too.

>>105846530
Undo feature already exists, OP is just too retarded to use it because it's not as simple as hitting ctrl+z on your keyboard.

>>105846492
>>105846517
computers don't need to operate this way, and most safety critical systems don't.
are you telling me you'd read a thousand air accident reports caused by pilot error and conclude the solution is "don't make mistakes"? after all, the airplane was just dutifully following the pilot's instructions as it smashed into the mountainside...
(in the real world they went with "redesign procedures so pilots stop making the same errors over and over")

it already does if you're using a gui file manager though? you can just restore things from the trash. i dont think windows cmd or powershell have undo functions do they?

>>105846541
given OP dates the shell to 1964, i think they're asking about CLIs in general rather than the unix shell specifically.

>>105846538
All airport accidents were caused by some retard making a mistake somewhere.

>>105846538
>most safety critical systems don't.
what the fuck are you even talking about
or is it bait again
ie. trolling?

provide a precise example of what youre thinking about
a safety critical system which has an undo function lamao

>>105846492
Damn you should call up congress and talk to them about your revolutionary "just don't make mistakes lol" idea.
Think of how much cheaper we could build things if we didn't have to care about safety precautions for either workers or end users.

>>105846557
>safety precautions
Such as checking if the command you're about to enter will fuck up your system?

>>105846557
you dont have an undo function when youre pouring cement
now answer this
>>105846548
im getting impatient

>>105846530
if test -f $out; grep -i "nigger" $foo | wc -l >> $out; done

Implement undoing of this command which counts the amount of niggers in a file and appends the result to another file
Where is the undo code? Which program or bash feature handles undoing?

>>105846567
Just copy the file from an older snapshot if you genuinely fucked up and lost data, it's not that hard anon.

>>105846548
this was a more general point about accepting people will make mistakes and trying to ensure those mistakes don't fuck them over. sometimes that means warning them they're going to do it, sometimes that means letting them undo it, sometimes that means not letting them do it (although there's little case for that last one in personal computing - just warn them first.)
any real world system would just invite pedantic nitpicking over metaphors (does the "TOGA" switch in a plane count as "undoing" a landing approach, or is it more like terminating a program mid-execution? hours of off-topic fun.)

>>105846565
you're arguing with more than one person.

>>105846574
This is why airbus calls you retarded more than once https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvVa3W8XiP4

>>105845760 (OP)
op is a massive retard

>>105846574
>this was a more general point about accepting people
no
that was retard bait
safety critical systems are dealt with through redundancy

>>105846573
So how do you propose implementing the undo then? `undo [filename]`? Because if so then you're moving the goalpost. What if your command altered multiple files? What you were asking for is just an `undo` command that magically reverses whatever you did.

>>105846582
"this will fuck you over, are you sure? y/n" is a form of redundancy.

>>105846574
>>105846582
the exact opposite of a fucking undo function, in spirit
do it once, and make damn sure youre doing it right
even if you have to do it several times at once like in aerospace and how they have 3 computers running simultaneously and the system picks 2 concording results of an outlier

>>105846587
cp snapshots/date/file fuckedfile

>>105846565
>you dont have an undo function when youre pouring cement
They would add one if it was possible.
On a computer, these are solved problems. It's just Unixtards refusing to implement the solution.
People fuck up pouring cement all the time by the way.

>>105846597
You can already do this without implementing an "undo" feature

>>105846605
If you were less mentally ill, you'd realize that this is exactly what I wrote.

>>105846544
>>105845760 (OP)
huh, ok. well i mean CLIs don't have that functionality because it's just not worth it, right? you could implement an undo function in bash but it would probably massively slow down any command you run. it would end up being incredibly complex with lots of edge cases too. im sure other CLIs would have similar issues. the problem is that with a CLI you can modify the CLI itself and the environment it runs in. as soon as you do something that causes some sort of recursion to happen, suddenly things are going to spiral out of control.

also deleting things becomes just moving them to the trash - then if you really want to delete them from disk you have to use, what, a new, separate command? why did we need it in the first place? you could have just used mv to put in in the trash to begin with. as nice as it would be if you could just magically undo things, there's also just no way for the shell to programmatically invert the output of your shell command. maybe some simple use cases could have an undo function added to them but i dont know if even that would be worth it.

>>105846593
i guess idk who cares to be honest
evendoe i feel thats more of a plastic cap for a trigger
or a safety mechanism, i wouldnt classify that as redundancy
redundancy would be another person who makes the work as you

>>105846600
>solved problem
What is the solution to undoing an arbitrary bash script?

>>105846612
>>105846573

>>105846607
Then what was the point of making this stupid thread?

>>105846596
again we can be pedantic: if you're breaking off an approach it's because you've done the approach wrong and have to try again to get it right. you return to where you started from and give it another go.
"just don't make mistakes" as a mindset would prohibit breaking off approaches - if your approach wasn't stable by the decision altitude on your first go, you shouldn't be in the cockpit at all.

>>105846617
How would I know? I didn't make it.

>>105846481
If you use the windows command line, file deletions are also permanent. what is your fucking point

>>105846600
>They would add one if it was possible.
nono
you can undo pouring cement (actually concrete.)
but since thats a fuckup
its something thats avoided and thus very rare
so nobody prepared a pre-made solution

with concrete you either wait til it sets or you try with buckets and wheelbarrows
with the cli you write the opposite commands yourself
>but its too hard for me
then youre a retard and stay away from a cement mixer, or the cli
problem solved lamao

>>105846618
Well, feel free to make mistakes, just remember, once you nosedive into the ground, there's no trying again.

This >>105846621 was your post, unless you're braindead and responded to the wrong person.

>>105846618
>toga
a human procedure
you configure the plane to go around, but its near identical to your takeoff configuration
you dont have a function for that, you have a procedure
whats so fucking hard to understand for your autistic ass?
i thought you were supposed to be good at abstractions

>>105846621
This >>105846530 was your post, unless you're braindead and responded to the wrong person.

>>105846612
The measure / cement pouring retard was responding that complained solely about file deletion. That's a completely solved problem.

>>105846639
I'm sure it was in your head, retarded tranny.

>>105846646
So what was the point of this >>105846573 post then? Are you from a discord server?

damn daniel. why don't you make a fucking bind in your terminal app. or a different shell. or some other bullshit you can do. or just don't use undo. that's probably your best option. undo is for faggots.

>>105845760 (OP)
use case?

>>105846621
>>105846607
>>105846646
>shitting up the thread

>>105846655
>>105846662
All you have to do is take your meds and then everything will start making sense.

>>105846662
even the op is shartyhomo bait

Use yocto. make a new artifact delta for every shell command you run. there you go, faggot. I created undo for you.

>linux that looks like Mac OS!
>linux that looks like Windows!
>linux that looks like older Windows!
>linus that looks like iOS!
>linux that looks like nothing you've ever seen before!
hmm, how about linux with basic user-friendliness?
>use case? that's not how it works, just don't make mistakes. using a computer is like pouring cement or crashing a jet. filtered shartroon retard, take your meds.

>>105846689
>why are there no premade solutions for my diy project!
okay retard

>>105846609
to expand on this, you can run other things, like a python script, from any CLI. how would you undo the actions of an arbitrary python script from within your CLI? the CLI doesn't know what the python script did, and it has no way of finding out. network connections complicate things as well. suppose you listen for incoming traffic on a network socket, then run something that sends a message back using a CLI once you get the right message in. would you need to undo the sent message, too? thats obviously not possible.

the only sensible way to implement an undo function is to back-up files - but this would very, very quickly eat up your disk space. if you want back-ups you just use system restore points and manually back-up important files you need to keep around. the *problem* that an undo function tries to solve is already solved by just backing up your data. making it create an entire system restore point every time you execute a mv command in bash just seems excessive. if you need redundancy there are specialized systems for that, too. so i dont think CLIs of any type will want to use an undo command that isnt very simple and only works in specific uses cases.

>>105846689
it is user friendly as fuck
your problem is that it isnt retard-proof

>>105846689
>>105846696
cont
unironically macos is less user friendly than loonis because you have to learn a new keyboard layout and their windows work differently from windows and loonis
they deliberately introduce friction into the workflow to remind the user hes working on a mac.
(welp, i dont have time for that, with expected results)

if you want hundreds of artifact images, feel free to implement this. I hope you have the storage and its not slow storage and dont mind taking the snapshots every single time you enter a single shell command and waiting for each snapshot to finish before you run another shell command. you will simply pay the price for being an idiot who wants to use undo on a shell

you can call it linux for retarded faggots who type the wrong shit in the shell constantly like OP

>>105846764
Snapshots are instant on my machine, but I make them once per system update and once an hour in my home dir since I don't make fuckups every 5 seconds.

>>105846803
then you do a cornjob and thats it you demented retard
toital sharty retard death

>>105846821
I'm not the one getting filtered by this.
# time btrfs subvolume snapshot -r / /snapshots/@/$(date +"%Y%m%d%H%M%S")
Create readonly snapshot of '/' in '/snapshots/@/20250709133903'

real 0m0.039s
user 0m0.003s
sys 0m0.012s

>>105846138
>>105846825
literally already stated itt
does it hurt to be retarded? because i feel like it should...

>>105846831
Nobody reads your posts, I hope you're not surprised.

>>105846837
no, i think youre trying to bait
which is trolling

>>105846841
Nobody else thinks this, and neither would you, if you took your meds.

>>105845760 (OP)
You would have to, for every command executed, keep a state of the machine before it was executed. Maybe you can reduce overhead for some things like keeping diffs for the files but then you would have to know what each command can do. Maybe you could allow the command developer to support an interface so you have a universal way for the undo command to look for changes but I cant forsee this working fully well. Maybe a service or a kernel module to keep the changes? Propably the most realistic way to have it is for each cmd programm to have an --undo flag, similar to hiw each GUI program knows to undo its own actions, but there would be some development needed to not be heavy on disk usage, so there would have to be demand, which I dont think there is much for most programs.

>>105846870
then youre profoundly retarded
and you shouldnt be posting here in that case either

>>105846885
Dilate, schizo spastic tranny.

>>105846122
>still desperately trying to force "le bait" forced zoomer meme
Just say troll, you pathetic coward.

>>105846881
Good filesystems already support this, retards just don't know how to use them.

>>105846892
>picks one specific post from the whole discussion to derail the thread even further
the whole therad was intended to be bait
wtf is this
baitception, or something?

shartynegroe then
which is also synonymous of mentally disabled
its like wet water vs water is wet kind of situation here

>>105846905
Well yea I'm with you, but to create an universal undo command you have to support most file systems, which includes ones that don't support that. For tge record I think a universal undo command is kinda pointless

>>105846937
No, I don't actually care about morons who refuse to use the correct filesystems.

>>105846945
Valid

>>105845760 (OP)
you can't undo formatting a drive
a partitioning tool already shows you changes before you write them to the disk
there is nothing more that can prevent user from being uncatious

formatting or zeroing a drive can't be cancelled
it will just stop moving the bits at that point
that's why everybody says to stop and reread your command before executing it

you can't undo removing a file
if you want you can have rm -i to prompt you
or define an alias that moves the files somewhere like ~/.trash
but it's dumb, you are wearing out the drive

if you move files you can move it back
but if you overwrite files nothing can be done
if you want to change something then
make a backup before you do such changes

stop being retarded
you are asking for the impossible
it's an user error if he doesn't use any precautions when doing irreversible operations
you can't guard an user from stupidity

>>105845760 (OP)
So go ahead and write it, faggot.

>>105845760 (OP)
>>still no "undo" command
is this a fucking joke? the whole point of the shell is to be in control. you are responsible of the whole system. it will respond to your commands...
just use a file explorer instead, you retard

>>105846304
Is that glowie gloryhole really behind cloudflare? Kek.

>>105848435
>the whole point of the shell is to be in control
>that's why we're not giving you this standard control mechanism

>>105846487
How do you reconcile this with sudo? If I'm a sudoer I shouldn't need to su the computer should gtfoomy.

>>105848456
its a fed + trannyhole
constantly bombarded with tranny-coded shit because muh bait
they also have leftypol connections
it makes perfect sense that the person who hacked 4 keks was a trany who posted there

>>105845760 (OP)
skill issue, see:
btrfs subvolume snapshot --help

>>105848435
I mean, he isn't wrong in spirit. computers should have become more transactional and immutable by design, but shitty tranny C ware set us up with the bomb. Linux is the only ecosystem that's treading in the right direction ironically.

>>105848619
based

>>105848639
>cware set us the bomb
wtf is wrong with measuring once and cutting twice or whatever the kids say these days?
even fucking sub 80 construction workers can do that wtf is wrong with you lisptranies
are you somehow even blow that?

>>105848664
>measuring once and cutting twice
that's not how current operating systems work. they all encourage tinkering which causes problems.

>>105848698
>they all encourage tinkering which causes problems.
incompetence causes problems
but big corpo wants incompetents because theyre cheap

what i fail to understand is why do you support big corpo endeavours
because a casual user wont put his hands into the works regardless of the os
and there he can undo all he wants

>>105848710
>incompetence causes problems
wrong, lack of computer enforcement does. this has been proven repeatedly throughout history and why the companies with real software engineering can offer 5 9's uptime.

>>105848727
no, incompetence
at the lowest level someone has to write the enforcement system too
kek
kinda chicken and egg, isnt?

whats your stack im curious

>>105846304
they moved to a different domain now.
>>105848600
they have no connnection to leftypol lmao, the sharty hates anything remotely leftwing

>>105848600
I mean 4chan is also behind cloudflare, but I'd assume they'd stay away from it but apparently nope. It's all the same, cloudflare is so fucking gay.

>>105845760 (OP)
Because you're not "undoing" arbitrary operations in any given GUI program. You're undoing a finite set of operations which have defined semantics for "undoing" those operations. Shells are a way of interacting with arbitrary programs who don't have defined semantics of what "history" or "undo" could mean.
>why don't the shell builtins have support for undo
Because nobody wants it and you'd have to keep either filesystem snapshots or diffs of every operation the builtins do.

>>105845760 (OP)
i dont get it. what do you mean "undo"? how do you "un do" something that you did? why are you asking for something that you haven't even explained how it works?

>>105845861
Not `shift+delete`, that's basically the `rm` option for Windows. "Deleting" in Windows without that is just putting files in the "recycle bin" to delete later on.

>>105848823
yeah no
either damage control or you just dont know the sharty
its a fed + kike + tranyhole

>>105848823
>they moved to a different domain now.
And how would I know this? Fuck off nigger.

>>105845777
trips of truth.

>>105848664
a computer is capable of doing better, why should moving a text document have more risk of data loss than moving a physical stack of paper?

>>105849085
Ask me how I know that you wrote this with greasy hands that would ruin any paper you touch.

>>105849085
because your guarantees come at a cost
>a computer is cabable of doing better
feel free to write it
are you the same guy whose stack i asked?

>>105848854
How it works is explained practically if not technically: when you press ctrl+z in a graphical program, the last thing you did is undone. For example, while typing this post it erases most of what I've just typed - but I can undo that by pressing ctrl+y. In file manipulation, pressing ctrl+z after moving a file returns the file to where it was before it was moved.
This isn't some deranged Xanadu hypothetical that nobody's been able to get to work, it's something you're very familiar with from using a computer in daily life. You're playing stupid by pretending not to understand.

>>105848843
Is a much better answer, although it doesn't fully account for why "undo" seems basically absent even in non-unix cli systems. if you don't allow piping and "remove" doesn't immediately permanently delete stuff, reversing most basic commands is easy - still, best you're gonna get is the occasional undelete.

>>105849128
>feel free to write it
What is the use case for him re-implementing Microsoft Word under Windows, which - despite being shit - has the amazing ability to be safer and easier than paper?

>>105849158
>Microsoft Word
oh, because you maniulate your DE with word?
or is it explorer.exe?
and if you want casual user guarantees, even loonix with its file explorer allows you to ctrl z
if its gui youre talking about then dont touch things way over your paygrade
stay in casual-user land

>>105849085
there's nothing stopping programmers from making this, its just that putting facilities to make undo consistent across the entire range of operations isn't worth it in many cases, nobody's going to do this implementation without a reason better than you losing some work and coming to /g/ to rant about it

>>105848639
have you ever tried deleting a file in the powershell console or in cmd.exe, or in the shell in macos? afaik the files get DELETED, not sent to the Trash folder.
it is YOUR responsibity to understand the system and make sure shit works the way you want it to.
in the case of 'rm', you could use another filesystem, as >>105848619 says. but, see, you still need to understand the technical details to make sure things won't go wrong.

>gui
*cli
you autists are tiresome
id ra ther talk with hydrocephaliacs bc theyre faster on the uptake and have less ego

>>105849158
oh so like how i can type cd - to undo a directory change.
i'm just confused as to why you're trying desperately to describe a feature that you want to someone else instead of just implementing it yourself? are you gay or something?

>>105849257
typical lisptrany
he didnt snitch on his stack bc its certainly sopme aggravating retardation like lisp + haskell + rust + js

>>105849257
It's not a question of wanting the feature, it's just highlighting how odd it is that it's absent, given we take it for granted elsewhere.
People regularly try to find the chimerical "beginner" Linux distro that will appeal to Windows users. There are tens if not hundreds of failed attempts at making such a thing. People have tried every variety of DE, every variety of pack in software, every variety of stupid configuration changes, and not one of them has thought: "hmm, how do we make the terminal less intimidating by incorporating basic features and protections that are assumed to be standard elsewhere?"
I find that interesting in and of itself. And that's just Linux, which has a lot of Unix specific weirdness that makes the task a nightmare.

>>105849370
>. And that's just Linux, which has a lot of Unix specific weirdness that makes the task a nightmare.
compared to what?
your imaginary lisp os on an imaginary lisp machine?

>>105845760 (OP)
Undo is realistically impossible, but 90% of the coreutils could implement a preview function trivially.

>mv
/DirectoryA/SubdirectoryA/FileA > /DirectoryA/SubdirectoryB/FileA?
Same for cp, sed, awk, echo, etc...

A small preview of the change to see if it's facially reasonable. It's more of a convenience function than any true necessity obviously, but it saves having to restore a backup from a mangled conf file by a malformed command, or going in to an editor by hand to fix white space in a YAML file after an echo missed a space etc...

The larger point that OP is alluding to is that GUIs give you easier exploration. You get to try out different things easily, though obviously you can't be as efficient as CLI.

>>105849442
And this shit doesn't work the moment you remember that these systems are inherently multiuser.

>>105849479
why are we running an inherently multiuser OS on an inherently single user desktop computer anyway?

>>105845760 (OP)
$ set -o vi;

Now you can fuck up, press ESC, then press U to undo the fuckup (insertion mode granularity).

>>105849559
because not everyone component has to have the same privileges
a user is an abstract entity used to organize the os
the side effect is reusing the same infrastructure for true multi user environments

>>105849559
coreutils is written to work on any system, not just your mutilated version of it

>>105845760 (OP)
Because you dont fucking understand what terminal is or does retard.

Terminal isn't a file manager: it doesn't just move files around and rename them.
If you need to do that, and need to be able to undo that, just use a file manager. Nobody is stopping you.

Terminal is an app launcher with extra spices: it's meant to let you start programs from it, and do fancy things with them, such as pipe outputs between programs, or loop them, or start an app for every file in directory.

How the fuck do you make an undo function for a glorified app launcher?

>>105845760 (OP)
Sundo?

>>105850909
This is just pushing the problem around. You explain why the terminal doesn't have undo but don't explain why each individual program lacks an undo function while most graphical programs include one.

>>105850994
use case for undo command?

>>105845760 (OP)
>>still no "undo" command
Yeah there is, it's called git. Is this bait?

>>105849085
REEEEEEE, let's just make everything transactional so every operation has a performance overhead without opt-out
if you want safety it should be done at user level, not filesystem level
people had no issues with that for decades
paying performance cost, because some faggots with adhd can't double check before executing some commands is stupid

>>105850994
>most graphical programs include one
name me one app launcher that has an undo function
exactly, none exist
and i dont need to elaborate on this any further, because, as even your smooth brain noticed, i already explained why the terminal itself doesnt do it: implementing undo is the burned of individual programs.

and even if you really want to move that goalpost that hard, all graphical programs that feature an undo function implement it only within the confines of its own scope.

sure you can brag about how you can press undo in visual studio code all you want, but only up until the session was opened: the moment you close it, next time you open it all you can do is seethe about any changes since.

and given that the terminal has no duties to keep tabs of what apps do on its own (nor should it), the moment your program exits, and gives you a terminal prompt, it has as many duties to provide you undo functionality as any other graphical interface.

and most terminal programs out there, which are made to be useful in a terminal environment, that is, do very simple and specific things, mostly for the sake of letting you put them together with pipes and loops like lego bricks, are made to exit shortly after doing its thing.

asking them to be fully aware of the interaction they had with a terminal, and reconstruct the state they were in before that, aside from being possibly the prone to corruption, is antithesis of trivial, or even possible for that case.

tl;dr, if bulk of your terminal work boils down to managing files, then consider learning how to use a file manager: terminal is not for that.

terminal is for curl-ing all the images from a pool from your favourite danbooru, and assembling it into a pdf comic.
terminal is for generating ID3 tags for your mp3s from their filenames.
terminal is for generating file checksums into a csv and using them to find duplicates.
file manager is for managing your files.

>>105851439
You've missed my point entirely: "implementing undo is the burned [sic] of individual programs" is what I was saying. You going "the reason the terminal doesn't have an undo function is because it's an app launcher" doesn't answer OP's actual question, which is why none of the applications you use in the terminal incorporate an undo function.

>>105851486
lol
youre seriously still at it?
how fucking retarded you have to be?
i know repetitive behaviour is an autismo thing
but even for an autist
youre retarded beyond words

its not empty insults
i have skills and experience in psychology
for better or for worse i semi instinctually dress the profile of a person
and holy shit
are you a specimen

Holy shit OP you got shitload of decent answers yet the autism train keeps going. Lmao

All fields motherfucker.

>>105851486
your point is shifting the goalposts retarded degenerate

implementing undo in terminal itself is impossible, and implementing undo in individual terminal programs is functionally impossible, and practically useless
read my post above, and use a fucking file manager techbro newfag

>OP actually collecting (You)s with this low quality bait

>>105852591
i find it very relaxing to berate and insult retards
im not sure hes enjoying the yous hes getting

>>105846108
>>105846122
Restore points are hard to use?
There's tons of built-in & free gui apps that manage them for you

>inb4 "they can't recover personal files I've accidentally wiped"
>skill issue + no backups = you deserved it

My shell has undo?
I use gemini cli

>>105851377
>REEEEEEE, let's just make everything transactional so every operation has a performance overhead without opt-out
It has a very low performance overhead, especially with the way SSDs work where they don't actually overwrite the data until you TRIM it or it's garbage collected. You can design the SSD interface so it does not overwrite in place, but creates a new version, which is what it's actually doing under the hood anyway. But this requires using your brain instead of complaining about smart people. If you were alive thousands of years ago, you would be complaining about all those people cutting stone and cooking food.

>>105853139
>It has a very low performance overhead, especially with the way SSDs work where they don't actually overwrite the data until you TRIM it or it's garbage collected.
>if you modify a file 3 times you get 3 copies of that file
what the fuck is this retardation im reading?
and if thats not the case
how are you gonna implement a ctrl z that works more than once?
also
what about hdd, or tape?

and you call people "dumb"?
but bro
your brains oozes ouf of your ears
you got holes in your grey matter

One of the nice things about solidity (and can be applied to any VM environment) is that you can undo (or revert as they call it) the effects of individual functions/calls and analyze the change in state. It would be amazing if we could one day make a local operating system with these features, beyond hacks like filesystem snapshots.

>>105845760 (OP)
I like to live dangerously. I use suicide linux.

>>105845845
you can ctrl-z in the file manager on linux too