Thread 105847121

Not because of the many and manifest flaws in the language itself, but because the packaging system is complete dogshit. Worked well enough just three years ago. Now it's worthless for anything but the simplest uses.

>Laugh if you like, anons, but I watched Perl die with my own eyes

>>105847121 (OP)
Scala inherits the earth.

Use a project manager like uv and it works perfectly.

>>105847121 (OP)
Oh no did someone make a project with 20 dependencies and get surprised when it blew up?

>>105847121 (OP)
If you can't even use a virtual environment with python you might actually be dumber than a pajeet.

>>105847121 (OP)
What the fuck are you people doing that causes pip to give you so much grief? How fucking hard is setting up a venv?

>>105847182
When it come to distributing software python is by far the worst out of all top languages.

>>105847121 (OP)
lmao, npm is a piece crap as well but I won't deny it looks decent compared to pip.

>>105847121 (OP)
Dumbest title today, but it's true pip is kind of shit. Python won't go anywhere because it's extensively used by scientists and for crappy scripts when you don't care that much about quality. There is no real alternative to Python. It's kind of simple and shitty but it does the job. Ruby was the only competition but it's dead.

>>105847182
They're probably trying to use it on Windows or OSX.

>>105847182
Just the fact you mentioned venv is already a massive non-obvious pain. Yes I know what it is and how to use it but try telling that to someone who knows nothing about venv and just wants a result to happen. That's why many users who aren't going to code just use pipx. At least that gives you a static binary and you don't have to know venv exists.

>>105847168
>If you can't even use a virtual environment with python you might actually be dumber than a pajeet.
The problem is not that humans can't use a virtual environment, the problem is that nothing else can use the fucking virtual environment. It's dogshit from top to bottom.

>>105847259
using a venv is much simpler than having multiple C library environments, but /g/ doesn't know about that because no one here actually knows how to code. i noticed all the python seethe skyrocketed when stable diffusion got released. i was in those threads watching /g/ fail to install it

>>105847216
>Python won't go anywhere because it's extensively used by scientists and for crappy scripts when you don't care that much about quality
So was Perl. Perl is now just as dead as George Floyd is.
>There is no real alternative to Python.
Just a little while ago there was no real alternative to Perl.

>>105847182
>How fucking hard is setting up a venv?
Simplest thing in the world. Unfortunately, it fucking breaks everything.

>>105847121 (OP)
uv finally fixeded it, fellow Brahmans

>>105847318
George Flloyd wasn't ever alive. He aint real bro.

>>105847259
>That's why many users who aren't going to code just use pipx
pipx is also dogshit for all but the simplest use cases.

>>105847330
You're right and there are very good reasons to have venv, but when you want shit done you use pipx.

>>105847194
Can't you just make a container image like any other software. The only exception i can think of is aws lambda

Who was he quoting?

>>105847372
That might be fine handing off to other technical people but as soon as you want to distribute something to a normie that aint cutting it. Python need to be able to compile to a binary, shit even C# and Java are realizing this.

uv solves this.

>>105847460
>>uv solves this.
>Written in Rust
Nice try, mate

>>105847513
Why does it matter if it's made in Rust? Python is a DEI lang anyway.

>>105847121 (OP)
perl is executable line noise. it was never going to survive.

>>105847315
Perhaps but it's a canon to kill a fly in most cases. We're all used to npm, maven, cargo, and other solutions that simply store locally or globally the versions we need, but here comes python with it's nonsensical venv that does have some pros but it's not that super useful and a giant pain. Just copy Haskell stack if you want to be all powerful. Yes I know there's poetry, pdm and uv, but it's a pain. Just saying.

>>105847121 (OP)
>Now it's worthless for anything but the simplest uses.
Sounds based.
Go further than that, it should force us to write < 1000loc.

>>105847528
>perl is executable line noise
Enough of this hackneyed phrase. Bad coders write bad code, and the flexibility of perl allows them to write exceptionally bad code; also unreadable code doesn't matter when you're writing a script that runs once

>>105847996
my team at work has perl leftover from the 90s that we still use. im sure it was only meant to be run once and thrown away.
its indecipherable.
jeets. not even once.

>>105848025
>its indecipherable.
I found Perl to be just fine, as long as I wrote code with the assumption that it had to be read by other humans. Unfortunately this attitude existed in about 0.37% of Perl programmers.

>>105847121 (OP)
I hope with Python dies, it takes yml with it. Yml has to be the worst configuration language I've dealt with.

>>105848025
>perl
>jeets
A white man wrote that and expected that you were at least as capable as him. Look how that turned out.

>>105847216
lol you said Ruby is dead.

>>105847121 (OP)
skill issue

>>105848171
i understand how you would think that but the author signed and dated the code, as was common before source control took off

>>105847121 (OP)
What killed Perl was the Perl 6 debacle.

>>105847216
Julia is better for scientific work

>>105847121 (OP)
c++ is the same way, the base language is not equipped with the tools you need, so you have to navigate a labyrinth of libraries with different syntax to get it to perform how its advertised

>>105848742
nah bro

>>105848759
take it back to r*ddit кoмpaд

>>105848759
you can at least modify the imported library or wrap it to suit your project. python doesn't really get the same luxury

Python 2.7 just works tough

>>105848163
YAML is not a configuration language

>>105848202
I did. You have evidence it's not? There's very little programs written in Ruby out there and very little interest. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not popular.

>>105848784
Python 2 is dead. More dead than Ruby.

>>105848815
lol
lmao even

>>105848053
I loved Perl back then but the community made it point of pride that they could write unreadable code. The highest honor for a Perl programmer was to win the Obfuscation contest. That really wasn't that big of a deal in the early days of the web when CGI scripts were only asked to do the most basic tasks and on the deep back end most everything was plain text processing.
But as to why Perl "died", I suspect it was more about the eternal "two more weeks until Perl 6" state it got itself into than the issues with code readability.

>>105848827
There are distros that don't even support python 2 anymore. It's deprecated. You shouldn't be using python 2 for anything.

>>105848798
One of the most annoying things in the tech industry is the nerd obsession with finding all the ways to abuse a new resource and use it for things it was not intended to be used for. Once someone does it, there's going to be others who don't realize it was meant as a proof of concept and to show off, so they put that misuse into wide use. Next thing you know, you have people celebrating YAML being used incorrectly to make up for JSON being used incorrectly.

>>105848864
At least it's better than using XML for configuration

>>105847121 (OP)
Saar? How to convert pip for Windows? Please give EXE, thanks.

>>105848861
i have many years of shit at work that was developed on python2. i'm not the one that broke backward compatibility, don't yell at me.

It would be hard to kill Python because it's heavily used at universities, similar to Matlab, unthinkable garbage that impressionable minds are told to use for a few years, then enter the industry thinking it's normal.

>>105847236
not that anon, but I'm using it on windows without troubles and I don't understand either

I used python about a year ago to test some bs job related stuff out and it sucked. We needed some kind of excel or csv file as the final output and used python for the computational part and it required something called Panda frames or something and all I could think of was how IT was NEVER going to let us use this and the amount and time we were wasting VS just using powershell and shit code. And after this these dumb asses wanted cloud and AI computing on a literal closed system secure environment . Lol Python is great language for college and kids but it's literally worthless for 99% of jobs. I'll never see the appeal for something like Python, it must be a web dev thing.

>>105848987
That's fine and there's lots of code in old programming languages but that still means it's a dead. Not dead as nobody uses, but dead as in don't use it unless you don't have a choice. There's lots of code in cobol, schema, fortran, heck even Java 8 is a pain.

>>105849157
> Python is shit
> Powershell is GOAT
I'm not sure if you're serious or not. Powershell is trash. You only found it useful because powershell has this communication protocol with Microsoft tools I forgot the same, but for general programming Python is many times better, and I'm not even that much of a fan of python.

>>105847121 (OP)
So why exactly has Python gotten so much worse over time? It still uses pip like it used to but it feels worse now despite in theory using the same tools

>>105848987
We did too at my previous employer. Easily millions of LoC, but we converted it all to Python3 in the span of about 18 months ~6 years ago. It's nice having a dev org that's not completely retarded and understands that tech debt needs to be resolved.

>>105849339
My biggest gripe is that the devs can’t into semgrep and introduce breaking changes into minor version bumps. Anyone with that little care for proper development standards isn’t going to make anything good

>>105849339
trannies took over, introduced a COC, and forced out all the old white men

>>105849345
no kidding. management here is... something.

Perl programmer
mst has passed away
https://www.shadowcat.co.uk/2025/07/09/ripples-they-cause-in-the-world/

>>105850229
vaxxed
https://x.com/shadowcat_mst/status/1435991344284119044

>>105848798
Name one time people choose to use this shit for non-configuration. What moron would transfer data using YAML over JSON or XML. It's just asking for data corruption and security vulnerabilities.

>>105847306
>nothing else can use the fucking virtual environment
what do you even mean by this have you ever even tried using venv or conda?

>>105850435
why did I get vaxxed
why did I get vaxxed
why did I get vaxxed

>>105847121 (OP)
Who cares, it's always been the programming language of academia anyway, and they moved past it for teaching to something else.

>>105847996
Show me good perl code, make sure I can read it.

>>105850808
nta, but i did run into troubles with software expecting system-level python dependencies to be installed (gdb while trying to run ghidra compat scripts). But having a virtual env for each python project is a huge pain in the ass. especially since they can take up to an hour to setup and be done downloading dependencies

>>105851246
my $nigger = "anon";
die $nigger;
die die die;

>>105851016
I hope you're joking.

>>105849339
it turned into C++

>>105851458
I wish I was

>>105850435
I remember meeting him at a Perl conference over a decade ago. I think it was one of the ones in Chicago. A bunch of the UK guys were wearing kilts. Perl was still pretty widely used back then, and it was a good time to be a Perl programmer.

>>105847400
>Python need to be able to compile to a binary
Have you tried searching this? You may be pleasantly surprised.

>>105848815
You can still get Python 2 support from Red Hat and Canonical, among many others.
If you have a Py2 codebase that is worth keeping alive and secure today, there's no shortage of companies offering this kind of support.

>>105847318
>Just a little while ago there was no real alternative to Perl.
There were always real alternatives to Perl, except in some autists' deranged headspaces.

>>105849305
>Powershell is trash.
PowersHell

>>105847121 (OP)
This can't come soon enough, but what would replace Python?

>>105847121 (OP)
Miniconda ftw

>>105848829
>"two more weeks until Perl 6"
Perl 6 is what happens when the guy in charge says "I'll design the logo".

>>105851359
>they can take up to an hour to setup and be done downloading dependencies
Conda user spotted!

Perl is alive and well, stop spreading lies

>>105850441
>What moron would transfer data using YAML over JSON
Umm... anon, JSON is literally YAML.

>>105852433
i use venv. Last time I had noticed a project on github that their environment setup wasn't working and they straight up told me to use a dockerfile because apparently their dependencies are path sensitive and don't like being installed at a custom location.

>>105852417
Yeah, linguists don't have any business making a programming language, both for the design and the implementation.

>>105852464
I've created a brand new standard. It's called AnonIsAFaggot. It's a superset of YAML and XML. Amazing how it has been immediately adopted by almost every tech company in the world.

I don’t program but the ‘10 years’ caught my eye lurking this board. Do you really think anything in the programming world is predictable 10 years out? Even if I got 50 (you)s saying yes, I’d think you’re all delusional.

>>105852496
>their dependencies are path sensitive
Ahh, *that* kind of project...
I had the pleasure to work with a data scientist who did this kind of shit. It is not Python's fault when people do retarded things that go against best practices, those retards would mess up any programming language known to man.

>>105847121 (OP)
What's wrong with Perl?

>>105847306
retard
I have 50 different cuda drivers in 50 different conda environments

90% of my 4TB Nvme is cuda libs, and the other 10% is .ckpts in hidden directories

>>105851443
>my $nigger = "anon";
>die $nigger;
>die die die;

>>105847121 (OP)
There are basically tiers of software
>quick n' dirty scripts
bash
>more sophisticated scripts and small, non-performant software
python
>real software
C/C++

>>105855112
>>real software
>C/C++
that depends if libraries are imported
#include "ffmpeg.h" is not a lot better than importing modules in python

>>105855177
nigger what

>>105855337
you don't know what you don't know

>>105855367
you don't import libraries in C

>>105855590
you don't get to play smart after being so retarded

>>105855669
dont project your retardation on to me, I'm not the one that said "import library" for C and C++

>>105855177
Brb, reimplementing libcurl just because otherwise I'm not writing "real software"

>>105855795
I'm not the one that can't see the difference between importing ffmpeg and writing a fucking video decoder. Writing C/C++ programs means jack shit.
>>105855832
>the library does all the work but I'm writing a real software

>>105850229
I find it funny that Peter Rabbitson has commented there, he just had to have the last word.
https://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.modules/2016/10/msg96174.html

>>105855961
what a drama queen

>>105855832
libcurl is slow, bloated garbage, the only reason people use it is because TLS libraries are even slower and more bloated garbage.
Literally nobody needed or wanted this trash library during HTTP 1.1 times when you could just open socket directly and have things just work.
But muh companies needed means to extract your money le securely, so now even looking for funny cat pics online requires TLS.

>>105856114
they're videos these days

>>105847134
Just recently started working with Scala when I heard the guy that built Lichess did it singlehandedly and continues to do so using Scala. It's the everything language, powerful ML style type checking, pattern matching with a syntax that looks like Python. *Chef's kiss

>>105847121 (OP)
why is there a packaging system
python always seemed like complete shit until i found winpython and realized you can, in fact, run it as a normal program that doesn't piss random files all over your system. what is the use case for making things more complicated than this.

python, like perl is not designed to be distributable. It's great for writing things yourself and having it run where you expect it to run. Not for making software for end users.

>>105855961
I had no idea that DBIC drama had been going on. I wasn't writing a lot of Perl in 2016. By that point, I had become anti-ORM too, so I was rawdogging SQL.

>>105847121 (OP)
uv or poetry solve this issue

Use Nim instead. It's better in every way.

>>105856728
>why is there a packaging system
Same reason why every other language has one – to ease development and reuse code across projects.

>>105856741
>not designed to be distributable
...and like Java, C#, PHP, JavaScript...
See the pattern?
You can definitely distribute Python software to end-users, there are many ways of achieving this.
PyInstaller, py2exe, PyOxidizer

>>105848025
That was always the joke about Perl: it's a write-only language.
>>105849157
I don't like Python (fucking whitespace for indentation? can't mix tabs and spaces?) and put off having anything to do with it until about a year ago, but since then I do have to admit that it has its place and with libraries like Pandas, Pytorch, Matplotlib and Numpy I can see why it's so big in "data science" and ML/AI.
I'd say it's more the modern equivalent of Visual Basic.

>>105857201
>I'd say it's more the modern equivalent of Visual Basic.
I can easily take Python more seriously than the language that has "Dim" as a keyword

>>105857231
>DIMension
BASIC was invented in the 1960s.

>>105847306
Skill issue, sorry patels can't use Python

>>105847168
even with venv python projects have become a nightmare to run, I think its python devs that are pajeets in this cases.