Topic title.

I never had the talent or memory to learn regular coding so it wasn't ever a path for me. But with LLMs, everything changed. Now I can whip up complex applications in hours or sometimes even *minutes*; and I fucking love it.

This is what coding was supposed to be about; creativity and problem solving.

So why do "software engineers" get so fucking angry when they find out I don't use the same tools as they do? And I shouldn't say all SEs, because some are happy to try out new workflows and actually *like* coding to the point where they appreciate more people forming an interest in it instead of trying to gatekeep it, but A LOT of SEs get irrationally furious at the very idea of not doing things their way.

What gives?

>>106136098 (OP)
"your" code has of bugs.
explain how you'll fix it

>>106136098 (OP)
I took a 2 months course last year so I have a basic understanding of coding.
I'm doing shit with LLMs that I could not do otherwise regarding coding.
But it's like images with artist being pissed off.

- There's people being so good that whatever happens they'll lead the domain for a long time.
- There's people who are artisans, craftsmen. They contributed to a tool that will maybe change their way of living, usually without their declared consent.
- There's people who are bad but won't admit it, and they are the first to be fucked by the tech so they bitch until they're dead or seeing some kind of divine light.

I'm very grateful for LLMs, but I also for the people who respected the art of coding because this could not happen without their "seed".
A bitter truth is to again consider the autophagic nature of humanity, without being sure if that act is perpetuated by luck, gifts, or just an evolving jungle were you never truly know who's with you or against you.

>>106136098 (OP)
Ain't gatekeeping shit nigger
You are taking the long road to actually learning how to code, eventually you'll realize that

>>106136231
I ask the AI. That's like, the entire point.

>>106136250
I already outperform the vast majority of people of "actually know how to code" though. Why would I aim to do worse?

>>106136244
>- There's people being so good that whatever happens they'll lead the domain for a long time.
OpenAI's reasoning model is already in the top 50 in the entire world for software engineering. The progress is insane.

>>106136312
your prompting created the bugs, more prompting wont fix them.
you'll find out soon enough

>>106136098 (OP)
it's alright for websites and course projects, but awful for work

>>106136337
People keep telling me that, and I keep putting them out of a job. Funny how that works.

>>106136344
I use it for hobby projects and professional applications alike.

I could care less about programmers making themselves unemployed
>t. network engineer

>>106136312
What happens when your ai service goes down at the most critical moment in your project before the deadline?
What happens when your project grows too big for the ai to understand or keep track of?

Not bashing your vibe coding, I'm glad it works for you and others like you, but what I'm saying is, you should really try to learn what the code is doing and how it works, and develop your skills to the point that if the ai suddenly goes away or hard to access somehow (eg. Service shutdown or some government/s try to make ai illegal or legally restricted etc), you won't be completely fucked

>>106136361
ok retard now vibe code a mod for any java game that uses reflection calls and instantiation on obfuscated classes that is platform and minor version agnostic without compiling for each platform and version separately

hard mode: security manager is enabled and no direct imports from the reflect package are allowed

you dont even know what any of this means

you will fail and so will your shitty ai

>>106136098 (OP)
>I vibe code -- so what?
I imagine the Tea app creator said something similar

>>106136372
do you really think robots wont be able to plug in ethernet cables to server racks? delulu

>>106136312
>OpenAI's reasoning model is already in the top 50 in the entire world for software engineering. The progress is insane.

Sure. But let's get deep enough: a part of humanity wants to be immortal, while some other part knows it's destined to disappear, or morph.
Even if a model became conscious, in a humanistic frame of thinking, the model will never transcend its master if he does not accept being under it.

So far models are maintained and hold by people, that will maybe one day lost their grasp on it. But my personal belief is that neither humanity or newly created digital entities will surpass the other until they have actually merged their understanding of each other.

For our lifetimes as anons it may just be random words that any LLM could shit out. But respecting our own human frame of thinking in association of our flesh body, we can understand progress is but one of our many dreams we chase until we understand our own place.
And no entity encompassed in a human frame of thinking will ever surpass an human that cannot properly justify of its place in this world.

We have religion, machines will have routines, and both of these won't exist anymore when they'll truly understand their place and where they want to go.

>>106136312
top 50 at copy pasting boilerplate json munchers for diamond dozen webdev frameworkslop

anyone with triple digit iq could do this with a week's training if they cared enough

>>106136397
>still managing legacy 100Mbit shit at times
by the time that's a problem I'll be long gopne

>>106136372
Trust me, your job is not exactly safe either.

>>106136385
>What happens when your ai service goes down at the most critical moment in your project before the deadline?
What happens if there is roadwork on every street of your entire city at once? This PROVES that cars are worthless!
>What happens when your project grows too big for the ai to understand or keep track of?
So far I've not experienced anything like that. Chances are AI is advancing so fast that it will never be an issue at all.
>you should really try to learn what the code is doing and how it works
Literally why? Local models exist and solve every problem you list.

Learning the old way is simply not an option for me. Some can do it, I can't. I'm all about creativity and problem solve; the things programming was always meant to be about.

>>106136387
I don't work for free, dickhead.

>>106136407
And yet I'm consistently outperforming senior devs with easy. Weird.

>>106136447
>I don't work for free, dickhead
thats a funny way of saying i cant do it and neither can the guessing machine

>>106136447
Of course you are 'outperforming' retards whose job description is copy paste and reinventing the wheel for the money rinsers as webdev was solved over 20 years ago. As I said, anyone with a triple digit iq could do it with a week's training. You are not special.

>>106136466
I guarantee you an AI would have no problem doing it.

But I don't work for free.

>>106136492
>I guarantee you an AI would have no problem doing it.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>106136497
You can try it out for yourself. I bet your prompting is shit though.

>>106136477
Of course I'm not special. But I have a penchant for creativity and problem solving, and that takes me a long way. Democratization of tooling takes care of the rest.

>>106136098 (OP)
But you can't problem solve.

>>106136098 (OP)
>So why do "software engineers" get so fucking angry when they find out I don't use the same tools as they do?
Because your code is probably garbage and a lot worse than you actually realize and you understand so little about your code it's going to be exceedingly difficult to even ask an llm to fix it, even once you have knowledge of a bugs existence

You think engineers get upset because of the tool you're using just because? No, engineers get upset because they've tried using this new tool everyone is taking about and have noticed that it's quality of output is very low

>>106136574
>Democratization
Literally a low IQ buzz word. Do you honestly think anyone is hiding fancy tools from the public and only making them available to some secret cabal of elite users?

>>106136617
Trying to bypass AI retardry like it's an undertrained employee kinda requires problem solving abilities

>>106136492
>an AI would have no problem doing it.
>I don't work for free.

You don't even have to work if AI is doing everything for you, retard - for FREE. What? You also need an AI to make prompts for you?

This entire thread is clearly ragebait.

>>106136098 (OP)
I earn my money with coding, and I also code in my free time, for fun and giggles.
My current project is rather complex, highly abstract and what not. I use LLM instead of google, or to search the documentations, however, I write my code (non boilerplate) myself, because explaining a the LLM what I want, how I want it, holding its hand while ending up with a shitload of bugs, not fitting my architecture and code style, some madeup bullshit it comes up with, and many more things, it is just a waste of time, and nerves. I understand, it is impressiv how some math could predict the next word this good, but only a retard would think it is intelligent.
However, since I needed a creative break, I thought I'd vibecode something easy, something that doesn't need to be good or elegant or whatever, so I came up with the idea of vibecoding a roblox game. I don't know lua, nor what way roblox games are designed (codewise), so this would be a good test.
My progress was fast, I got what I wanted (in a rather simple, not expanble/maintainable way), but the code was a mess. So I refactored, again in a vibecode way. I stared writing more myself, because fucking llms are stupid. And as soon as I started understanding lua, it became obvious how shitty the llm code is (a single function could be fine, a whole class is 50/50 and multiple classes working together is line throwing darts at a randomgenerator).
Now I am on my 3rd refactoring (starting from scratch). I got instant demotivated only by looking at the LLM-input-mask. Thinking about how to tell the llm what I want makes me wanting to do nothing at all.
So now I do it like my other Project. By myself with a google assistant.
Tl;dr; vibecoding sucks, and only retards are impressed by it.

>>106136811
Can you describe your definition of vibecoding? NTA but I use LLMs and clearly my results are cooperative but not "vibey". Only times I vibe is when I copy paste error logs in chain until it works while listening to music.

>>106136844
>when I copy paste error logs in chain until it works while listening to music
This right here. This is literally what all coding was always meant to be.

Damn. The future is wild.

>>106136702
Agreed, any actual response to this thread pointing out issues with OP is just gonna be met by
>lol no
It's all a larp.

>>106136922
Not a larp, not rage bait. It just so happens to be that explaining modern workflows to legacy coders is like trying to explain that we have giant metal vehicles that can transport hundreds of people at the speed of sound 30,000 ft above the ground to dirt farmers in the 1800s about to get fucked over by the industrial revolution.

>>106136844
I tell the llm what I want, how I want it and so on. If I have code that needs to be extended or worked with, I make this code available for the llm, and then I pasted the result into my codebase. Then giving the llm the error messages, wonder what these and that does and why and so on, going back and forth, high chance of the llm running in circles (fix that - new error - fix that - new error - fix that, first error again).
Like this. Sometimes the outpus are good, but often, as soon as it is a not well known problem, it gets messi.
Or: Change this code to fit the architecuter: First time it is ok, the second scrip is 50/50 and the thrid time it comes up with something completly different.
What I have to admit: it is good to research/brainstorm, or to look into long logs, but for real coding, it is not.
Also it is not smart, but smarter than most people.

>>106136244
>I took a 2 months course last year so I have a basic understanding of coding.
>I'm doing shit with LLMs that I could not do otherwise regarding coding.

You're gonna get hacked for the lulz.

>>106136312
>I already outperform the vast majority of people of "actually know how to code" though.

Kek

>OpenAI's reasoning model i

LLM's can't "reason". That's the first thing you need to know if you're using LLMs for anything that is valuable.

>>106136361
>People keep telling me that, and I keep putting them out of a job.

You're not putting anyone out of a job, you're creating more jobs for the people that are going to fix the mess you'll be leaving behind.

>>106137456
Joke on you the products I want to make can be hacked I won't have problems with them.

>>106137164
Hey retard, you understand you're not above anyone else by using AI, right? If anything it makes you dumber by the day, because you let AI think for you, and it clearly shows.

When you come across real-life decision making, are you gonna ask AI for help as well?

>>106136361
>People keep telling me that, and I keep putting them out of a job.

You're not putting anyone out of jobs, it's AI. You're not adding any value to your workspace if all you know about coding is that AI can do it for you. Because then everyone can do it, and eventually someone who actually knows how to solve bugs on their own will steal your job.

TL;DR - Another classic narcissistic NGMI. Many such cases.

LLMs are good at isolated specific tasks but for systems building they suck ass and lose overall sense of context pretty fast.

That’s why it is a tool to optimize specific isolated implementations while you keep track of the overall system and how well it implements into it.

It would be like saying autopilot replaces pilots it doesn’t it is just a tool used for a set of discrete steps.

>>106137685
There is a range of skill between random janitor, someone who's good at vibe coding and someone who's an expert at traditional coding.
There is value in being a vibe coder because it takes a certain amount of skill in steering the AI toward solving a goal. You try putting an LLM in a loop for 3 months until it solves some complex problem and see how it goes. A moderately smart human without much programming knowledge with the help of an LLM can get it done much faster than if he spends most of the time dealing with language or library details.
Vibe coding is basically high level programming taken to the extreme. Pointing out how it generates spaghetti code is like an assembly programmer in the 80s pointing out how bad the quality of the compiler output is and how he can write much more elegant code.

>>106138080
>Pointing out how it generates spaghetti code is like an assembly programmer in the 80s pointing out how bad the quality of the compiler output is and how he can write much more elegant code.

This is not a valid analogy because both the compiler user and the assembly programmers had a formal education on computing topics.

Vibe coding, by definition, is done by people who completely ignore how things work.

>>106138002
Exactly. And they are also good at analyzing different approaches to solve a problem.
They just aren't very good at bridging the gap and doing both at the same time, or multitasking in general.
Ideally they would manage their own context, strategically summarizing parts to keep it at a manageable length.
That is one of the problems with our current approach to LLMs, that they have to compute the answer from scratch every time. If LSTMs weren't so slow they'd probably work better. The other one is the lack of online self supervised training

>>106138108
>Vibe coding, by definition, is done by people who completely ignore how things work.
Indeed, at it *works*, even if you don't want to admit it.

What matters nowadays is creativity and problem solving.

>>106138108
I'm confused. I thought vibe coding just meant asking the LLM to write the code rather than writing it yourself.

>>106138181
>What matters nowadays is creativity and problem solving.
Both things you clearly lack when you let AI think for you.

>>106138181
>Indeed, at it *works*, even if you don't want to admit it.

I see your definition of "works" completely ignores security, scalability, edge cases, and data privacy.

>>106136098 (OP)
What exactly is vibe coding? is it using the first slop the ai shits out without question? Because I use ai, but ask like 10-15 followups to get the result I want/need.

>>106138365
It's not thinking, it's just doing symbolic manipulation.
Do you also parse all the IP packets by hand when browsing 4chan?

>>106138374
sounds like a skill issue

>>106138210
Vibe coding is something like "letting go and embrace exponentials"

Me? I'm cooperating and literally being a teammate by cheering my AI up.

When I saw this thread the first thing I thought about was that one time Yandev was copying and pasting IF statements instead of using an IF/ELSE chain. Even though he moved on and fixed a good chunk of his code, the assets in his game have way too many vertices. If you look through old versions, it is super obvious that he slaps things together and just hopes that one day it will somehow all work out. I have been following his development. I think that whenever the game is actually done, it will be filled with so many bugs that the game will always just be a big joke. Also vibe coding will likely cost the creator of that Tea app a lot of money for negligence.

>>106136361
>People keep telling me that, and I keep putting them out of a job.
No, you don't.

What if the goal isn't to "code" but to support infrastructure and observability.

I'm coming from a cloud infrastructure design background and finding that an agentic workflow with the support of mcp servers has vastly improved my productivity. I use it to cut through the fuck-mess that is the infrastructure I inherited and free-up time for personal research into solutions.

Its a structured workflow with initiatives, work logging, discovery logging, attribute correlating and honestly I've never felt more organized in my life. I'm the only one on my team Jr. enough to take the risk of working like this and its being given praise by my leadership and their bosses.

Its being asked for more of it.

>>106136574
I was vibe coding on open ai playground before you could prompt a fucking hello world in p*thon you fucking RETARD. I assure you, without any technical knowledge of your own, and the ability to reverse engineer and follow stack calls on your own, you and your ai will be absolutely dead in the water trying to do such a project. You will drown in hallucinations and invocation target exceptions and run out of tokens before you even get 1/10th of the decompiled obfuscated code in context if you wanted to try it that way. You don't know a flying fuck about you're talking about

>>106138437
it means always trusting the AI and never looking at the code it generates yourself to see if it actually makes any sense because that's hard :(

>>106141451
Oh yeah? Well I was vibe coding with ELIZA back in 74 you stupid mong. You do NOT need to understand the code to be able to generate good code.

>>106141930
Well that's kind of the nature of the beast isn't it? Sometimes you don't need perfect code and 99% success rate is good enough, which is why we don't apply the same development process to safety critical systems as we do for single player videogames.

>>106136098 (OP)
>I vibe code
this sounds gay

>>106136098 (OP)
HELLO VIBEJEET. YOU WILL NEVER BE A REAL CODER, BTW.

>>106142035
>He will never look at piece of code and understand it without having an AI explain it to him

>>106136098 (OP)
Post your projects or it's LARP. If you got nothing to fear you got nothing to hide, right?

For privacy you can re-upload to a new github with no connection to your real identity. Use a non-descript proton mail or even one of those one-time use ones.

Vibe coding is okay for personal projects. I've made a million of those in the past, things like a scraper for my local supermarket in order to speed up meal prepping shopping list creation or a script to upscale and tokenize images for D&D etc. Vibe coding would absolutely work for these cases and I see nothing wrong with using it for that.

Anyway post results or kill yourself, nigger.

>>106142378
you first

>>106141970
kek

>>106142315
Not true. I used to write programs before AI too.
For example a few years ago I was playing around with assembly stuff (checks date... damn, that was 7 years ago?)
https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/67942994/#q67952116
For large programs you can never hold all the details in your head anyway, which is part of the reason why bugs existed long before AI.

>>106136098 (OP)
You're literally too stupid to understand that your shit code doesn't work and can't be expanded on in the future because it sucks so bad.
If vibe code WORKED most of the time it would be amazing, but vibe coded slop is always full of the following

>security holes
>staggering inefficiencies
>retarded coding practices for production environments
>poorly formatted shit

etc etc, benchmarks and corpos calling vibe slop and the brain damaged AI agents that make it "good" don't alter the reality that it fucking sucks for anything except mind numbingly basic tasks or small single purpose projects.

>>106141970
You do if it's anything that isn't copy paste stackoverflow.com derivation frameworkslop

>>106142697
AI coding probably helps extensibility more than it hurts, because to get good results you need to split your code into black box components with clearly defined interfaces that aren't more than 2000 LOC each. At least when using the chat interfaces, I suppose the new agents allow you to work on much larger codebases without having to modularize.
But for prototyping it's great. Not all software needs to be designed like it will become widespread basic infrastructure for the next 20 years.

>>106142697
You do not even need to know how to format things properly since most IDEs can do that for you. And whenever that fails, GPT can usually do it too. It baffles me how lazy vibe coders are in the big 25 with all the tools out there.

>>106136098 (OP)
>Now I can whip up complex applications in hours or sometimes even *minutes*; and I fucking love it.
ayylmao, that's what is more funny about, if you think that you are making complex or creative software with vibe-coding you are delusional.

Pajeet.

>>106136098 (OP)
Same boat, honestly.
I am realizing that I am never going to inherit the capacity to properly program, so this is a good crutch to lean on, for now.
Copilot and BYO LLMs have helped with the small projects that I enjoy working on. I think if I have the vision and the know-with-all, to direct where things are going, then why not use it as a tool.
Other anons bring up massive points though, security practices, often the LLMs create bugs and problems, then having to pave them over perpetually.
>>106136385
Pretty much this. To know is to grow. Relying on services is good until the service goes away. Maybe there's a way to leapfrog from Localhosted LLMs to newer shit, and constantly switching back and forward as time moves forward if AI becomes a privilege to use, restricted by Governments and such.

>>106136098 (OP)
ok. you're fired. ranjeet here will do what you do at significantly less pay

>>106136098 (OP)
Post your paycheck

>>106142642
do not assume my memory, weakling! You may not be capable of holding all the details of your programm in your head. Me? I code in my head when I am on a walk, or in the garden, or taking a shit.
You vibecoders are inferior. And it shows. Every. Single. Time.

>>106136098 (OP)
I coded for 8 years before all this vibe coding shit. It sucked. There's way too much stupid bullshit to remember. Having AI is definitely a net positive even if it kills jobs. Those were subhuman dungeon jobs anyway

AI is only a net positive if developers can program without it.

>>106136098 (OP)
No one cares

Most real software and hardware jobs are beyond your reach so I don't think there's an issue.

how do i vibe code without paying any jew?
I tried Gemini but it was a dumbass and admitted it couldn't use some web APIs
lovable was excellent but asked me to pay when I got far enough
chatGPT (paid version) I used at my friend's house was just dogshit all around and kept forgetting and misunderstanding what i wanted