The future is immutable and you will like it

well when will those fedora fags deploy out-of-the-box SecureBoot, UKI + Measured Boot like they have been promising for years
Immutability is secondary to that.

what exactly is this immutability stuff?

>>106147532
Most of the core filesystem is read only.

The results are:
1. A retard proof system (which is why valve made an immutable arch for steam OS)
2. More security since most foreign agents that are supposed to modify files won't be able to modify any core system files.

Unintended consequences:
1. Can't update the system normally since you can't change read only files. This was solved with that they call atomic updates.
2. Can't install apps normally since apps need to write binaries, config files, dependencies, etc into various directories in root. They got around this by using containerized packages solutions like flatpaks.

Other than fedora's silverblue and valve's steam OS. You got blend OS (arch based), vanilla OS (debian based), bazzite linux (fedora based), nitrux, among others like nix and guix. All are immutable.

>>106147705
>They got around this by using containerized packages solutions like flatpaks
so immutable distros are bloated by design then?

>>106147705
>>106147747
oh, and thx for the explanation, fren

>>106147747
they are. Though I believe nix and guix solved that since they use their own package managers which involve dependency resolving. Haven't tried those two though. The rest are bloated by design.

>>106147705
Why would I want my Linux to function like windows? I thought the whole point of Linux is "you're in charge." This sounds like Windows ideology.

>>106147503 (OP)
I hate how certain people come up with creative ways to ruin performance on perfectally capable few years old machines.

>>106147761
windows is not immutable. I believe android, iOS and mac os are though.

>>106147773
Splitting hairs. All this shit about protecting the user from themselves is exactly why a lot of people leave windows. If this immutable shit is needed for normies in offices, great. But I don't want this shit by default.

>>106147761
I, too, enjoy having install scripts delete my root fs and system upgrades borking my install. Linux ideology ftw, sisters!

>>106147761
>>106147793
>It's like Windows, even though Windows doesn't do anything remotely similar to this.
What a stupid argument. You sound like someone that started using Linux two weeks ago.

>>106147793
>If this immutable shit is needed for normies in offices, great. But I don't want this shit by default
immutable OS' are released as separate operating systems anon. No one is defaulting anything.
Fedora has their regular release and they have silverhide as their immutable variant.
Similarly opensuse has an immutable variant of tumbleweed called microOS.
No one is forcing this on anyone they're just variants that you can choose.

>>106147503 (OP)
sure the future is immutable but with immutability based on copying/backing up /home and /etc and restoring system state from just those (and optionally a package cache) on boot, not based on overcomplicated garbage (see what vanilla and etc... do)

the alpine immutability (https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Data_Disk_Mode) based future is the only based one

see also: lbu backup; https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Alpine_local_backup


>>106147705
you forgot the goat, the immutability king, the only distro that does it right (see above)

>>106147970
The goat is nix. Everything is else is larping faggot shit.

Sure, shut down the computer and read the book.

Eh, btrfs snapshots are good enough protection.

>The future is immutable and you will like it
Nope, I'll pass on this vendor locked tech debt.

I see immutability as a midwit "solution by retards for retards" who break systems daily and can't git gud at simple backups.
It may be okay if you love instability, are a fedora/Redhat/IBM bootlicker, test for free their *great ideas* all day while choking on corpo cock when it's not up to Linus Torvalds' steaming arse.
But I won't refrain from pitying the fools being lured away from simpler, elegant tools by this trap. It's another can of worms, more tech debt sold as a "solution" for a problem that's been solved for ~30 years or so. It's like systemd all over again, alà "Lennart does your backups"™ lmao.
For everyone caring to do the homework in a universal, simpler, OS agnostic fashion, oh dear, solid backup systems have existed since ever: rsync, rsnapshot, borg, duplicity, even a painfully simple tar+cron does the job (unless you're beyond retarded).
The beauty of this is that these tools have been time'n tested for literal decades, are everywhere (won't surprise me if they've been ported even to fucking TempleOS), and above all, you can play with them outside of IBM's walled garden.

Freedom is priceless. Not something slaves would know LMAOOO.

>>106148112
immutability isn't a redhat thing anon. There is literally 1(one) redhat distro that's immutable. Many more indie ones like nix, guix, vanella, blend, nitrux, etc

>>106147820
Let me guess... Arch btw?
When was the last time you spent an entire day without falling for memes?

Someone post the Luke Smith pasta

>>106147517
>>106147863
>>106148112
>>106148190
>CHING CHOOONG
>I AM OLDFAG
>REDDIT INVENTED PARAGRAPHS

kill yourself newfag

>>106147503 (OP)
How's the performance compared to something like Arch or Debian? Nix sounds pretty cool and package selection is immense which is what I like so much about Arch.

Immutability is a corpo meme for enterprise and servers, desktop users falling for it is just another consequence of unknowingly doing free testing for big tech because that's all that FOSS is for them
>started with google
>transferred to red hat
>transferred to ubuntu
>transferred to suse
>last three transfer to retards because all you need to do to make someone work for you for free is tell them "it's the future"

>>106147503 (OP)
>kde
>fedora
worst choice

>>106147705
>>106147820
>>106147838
So Fedora is targeted for literal retards? kek
Makes sense.

>>106148409
it's a variant of fedora called silverblue. Regular fedora isn't immutable.

>>106148150
>indie
lol
Admit it, you love fragile/broken shit written by clueless jeets bc of flashy shit. Recognize it.
Second, if you got sold on immutability, it's because you got away from solid backupping, with one small caveat: tools like cron+rsync or rsnapshot, even fucking Borg, etc, have been battle tested since decades, even in military environments where stability is top priority. They will never fail you, and they will never lock you to specific workflow/OS since they are ubiquitous and agnostic.
But I think for some, an OS is like a toy, not a tool, so who am I to tell a kid not to play with his toys? Enjoy.

>>106148257
Cope, shitskin vermin.

>>106148409
You don't even use Linux.

>>106148509
How can you tell?

>>106147705
i never tried an immutable distro so idk if this seems obvious but
what happens if i want to change my hostname? that would require being able to edit /etc, but doing something stupid like deleting everything from /etc would do quite a lot of damage. so is /etc writable, allowing me to change my hostname, or would changing the hostname also be done as an "atomic update"? or is this more like android without root access where you can't change anything? the first one would require relying on things like btrfs snapshots for restoring, which makes the whole immutability thing pointless, the second option could work but sounds like it would fill your drive very quickly, third option would just suck
am i missing something?

>>106148538
I don't use them either anon. Just experimented with them 'cause I like distro hopping and trying different stuff. Not sure about hostnames in particular but some files were writable. Most of the core was read only but not everything, the /var directory for example was writable. I assume /tmp, /media, were writable as well. Not sure about /etc.

>>106148537
not that anon, but the guy he's responding too definitely used or used linux. People who only use windows and/or apple stuff wouldn't know what a distro is and wouldn't mention one by name. They'd address linux as a singular entity and call it linux, they won't write fedora.

>>106148589
alright, i guess i can just try it on a vm

>>106148480
>chink from reddit calling everyone shitskins

every time

>>106148538
I don't use an immutable either but my understanding is you can't edit /etc but you can overlay changes. Shouldn't really take up any space layering small changes like this and you can reset or clean up unused ones.

>>106148616
He maybe tried Linux Mint for a few months but he's clearly not a regular or long term Linux user.

>>106147761
nu-linux is even *worse* than windows from an architectural standpoint, since applications on the latter can actually share libraries and utilize inter-process communication without having to be constrained by a bloated container format like flatpak

>>106147761
Windows is literally the opposite of "immutable" it's click random snap-ins randomly in hopes your changes magically fix the other changes some other idiot made last week kind of OS.
at least Linux has a choice.

>>106148589
>>106148660
the results are in
i tried fedora silverblue for this
/etc is completely empty on a fresh install, what would normally be on /etc seems to be somewhere else
i got a bit too cocky after realizing that and immediately ran rm -rf /, (the equivalent of) /etc/passwd, wherever it's stored, was definitely gone, so it seems like option 1 is what ends up happening... not very immutable (at least with silverblue, which i am assuming is the most popular immutable distro if you don't count steamos)
it also seems like /boot does not get remounted as read only, so grub is also gone
fixing this install would be easy if this was, say, arch and something more "legitimate" than deleting absolutely everything happened, but i'm honestly completely lost on how i would even approach this
i also think it's odd that /home isn't on a separate partition by default, it seems like a bad choice in this context

>windows takes away user control over OS
>linuxfags point out that this is bad
>immutable OS takes away user control over OS
>linuxfags defend this

>>106147747
Yep.

>>106148889
Immutables don't take away control from the user, the user is making a conscious decision to use an immutable distro. Windows 11 users don't have an easy way to opt out from their OS taking screenshots and sending them to Microsoft every few seconds. Linux has always had more safeguarding on modifying your system files than Windows anyway, so pretending immutables are some unprecedented restriction is nonsense anyway.

>>106149119
>the user is making a conscious decision to use an immutable distro
Ahahahahahahaha
And user will be making a conscious decision when FEDora will force all major distromakers to do immutable-only distributions?
>Windows 11 users don't have an easy way to opt out
And it will be as hard to find non-immutable distro as it's as hard to find non-systemd distro

>>106149385
>FEDora will force all major distromakers to do immutable-only distributions?
You don't use Linux.

>>106147761
The idea is that you are NOT in charge and that is for your own GOOD. Think of the children, also - don't, you sick pedo.
Please report to your closest IBM office for a wrongthink violation fine.

>>106147793
>a lot of people leave windows
Unimaginable level of delusion

>>106149399
No you.

>>106149432
If you used Linux you'd know there are numerous distros that don't use systemd and that you can build a distro that uses whatever components you want. No-one can force anyone to use anything. The reason the major distros use systemd is because most developers and users prefer it.

>>106149471
That's like saying that countries have censorship because most people prefer it.

>>106149471
>numerous distros that don't use systemd
Name 10
>you can build a distro that uses whatever components you want
You don't use linux lmao
>No-one can force anyone to use anything
For that reason non-systemd distros have to use logind?

>>106149489
It's not remotely comparable to that obviously.

>>106149501
It literally is. Systemd shills are actively trying to suppress everyone who doesn't use it.

>>106149497
>Name 10
Artix
Devuan
Alpine
Slackware
Gentoo
PCLinuxOS
AntiX
Void
PuppyLinux
MX Linux
>You don't use linux lmao
See LFS. You're just a consoomer.
>For that reason non-systemd distros have to use logind?
They don't. See elogind and seatd
>>106149514
There is literally nothing to do you using a non systemd distro or making your own distro. Most people like or are indifferent to systemd which is why they use systemd distros. If that wasn't the case everyone would switch to distros using alternative inits.

>>106149687
>They don't.
>See elogind and seatd
lmao

>>106147705
>Can't install apps normally since apps need to write binaries, config files, dependencies, etc into various directories in root. They got around this by using containerized packages solutions like flatpaks.

Sounds good, programs should be srlf-cobtained and should not fucking litter all over the place.

>KRASH DE

Are they slower than non immutable distros?

Lol why does Linux always take themost convoluted route?

>>106153158
No

>>106147705
>>106147503 (OP)
What benefit does this provide me over just using a normal distro + docker for all my complex application?

>2. Can't install apps normally since apps need to write binaries, config files, dependencies, etc into various directories in root. They got around this by using containerized packages solutions like flatpaks.
Can you not even program on it then and make your own apps or is /home/* mutable?

>>106149385
>FEDora will force all major distromakers to do immutable-only distributions
how would one distro force another distro to do anything retard ?

>>106154506
>What benefit does this provide me over just using a normal distro + docker for all my complex application?
Read only root is inherently more stable and resilient, updates can't break your system, easy rollbacks.
>Can you not even program on it then and make your own apps or is /home/* mutable?
/home/ is mutable. Immutable distros are ideal for development. See Bluefin/Aurora.

>>106154671
So if I install my distro and it's missing openssl, how does that work out? or is /usr/lib, /usr/bin not immutable?

>>106154974
You can install it. Immutable doesn't mean you can't install software, it just means the root is read only.

>>106147503 (OP)
I'm sorry, I don't take predictions about the future seriously from somebody who has four different browsers installed.

>>106154671
>Bluefin
I can't take people who think all dinosaurs were feathered serious

>>106147532
Cant use dnf.
Must use rpm-ostree
Its fucking retarded man.

Woudln't it be better to come up with ways to develop software without falling into dependency hell or leaving files all around the system without just bloating up everything?

>>106156095
so you'd like everything to be statically compiled?

>>106156139
At least that way we wouldn't have every single software pushing menial updates every single week, would we?

>>106156251
it would make things even worse because fixing any issue that's found in a library requires you to replace every executable you have that uses it instead of only updating a single .so file

Immutable is beautiful if you know how to work container stuff, they have toolbox/(get distrobox instead of toolbox immediately tho)distrobox to ease you into it. The issue is always something that if you want to do anything somewhat finnicky you're often following different steps as most people or having to come up with your own steps getting around the system, and for that you better be aware of the technicals behind it ostree/etc

what you get from it is no bloat so you could in theory have the same os set up for 60 years no reinstalls from distro breaks - no crud

>>106156251
>10 software all use library X
>library X finds a critical bug and fixes it
>you now have to individually update each of the 10 software, as the developers find the time to do so, in order to patch it
>you also have 10 nearly exact copies of X on your system embedded in various executables

>>106147503 (OP)
>krashes

So what's wrong with immutability other than
>le flatpaks take up a few extra mb on my drive!!

>>106156502
btfs compresses the duplicates

>>106147503 (OP)
fedora is bloated. it uses like 3GB of ram out of the box
it was my first linux distro in 2017
i went from fedora to ubuntu LTS and from ubuntu LTS to linux mint

>>106153471
Corporations push it, gullible idiots suck it.
In IT, every use case has already been solved. Backups & data permanence/recovery were a problem 20 years ago and had a plethora of solutions 20 years ago, as pointed here >>106148112 (rsnapshoot is particularly nice and even a kid can set it up)
...but that's not sellable. "Old tech that just works fine is baaad... but please, pretty please, use our new flashy toy, it comes with colored emojis!"

TLDR: linux users favorite sport is falling for memes and getting scammed by corporations.

Opinions on serpent

>>106147747
Storage is cheap, and you get better security, privacy, and stability in return.

>>106148112
You are a strange one. You throw around jargon like you know a lot, but you don't seem to realize that there are immutable systems other than those from Redhat & Co.
Strange indeed.

I'd still prefer to use straight rpm-ostree to layer additional rpms over the base image instead of having a combination of fedora flatpaks as well as flathub flatpaks packaged by randoms with separate multiple GBs of dependencies.

Nix is where I'm at even if the nix language is often frustrating.

>>106147863
>immutable OS' are released as separate operating systems anon
If they made a mutable version of Bazzite I'd use it

>>106147761
Maybe because Linux should be for everyone and some people don't want or need to have free access to their root if all they want is to watch YouTube all day and email while still respecting their privacy and four essential freedoms and telling people to "go to Windows" if you want to have an OS with certain features you find unnecessary is the exact reason we have never had a year of the Linux desktop you crab bucketing nimrods.

>>106147532
Can't install a vpn

>>106157994
>some people don't want or need to have free access to their root
I don't need to browse through core system files myself: what I want is for my applications to have small install sizes, for them to launch quickly, and for them to run quickly.

That's not a tinkertranny opinion. I'm a normie uninterested in making direct changes to root myself. And if I want my PC to be fast, after hearing aaaall about how much faster Linux is from Linuxfags, and if I want my disk usage to be low, after hearing aaaall about how much more efficient Linux is from Linuxfags, how exactly does locking myself into Flatpaks give me what I want?

>>106156604
>i went from fedora to ubuntu LTS and from ubuntu LTS to linux mint
Sounds comfy.

>>106157932
>Nix is where I'm at even if the nix language is often frustrating.
NixOS seems great, and Nix the language is the biggest barrier to adoption.

>>106156604
workstation ISO is for braindead retards
you are supposed to use the everything ISO and do a minimal GNOME install (only select network manager and standard utils in the installation) and then manually install gnome-shell and anything else you need to get up and running
it's pretty easy, only becomes slightly annoying if you have a laptop that requires special snowflake drivers (for network, most modern android phones let you do USB tethering even from WiFi, which works with Linux out of the box as ethernet over USB)
fresh minimal gnome install only uses around 600~800MB RAM on my system

I used to shit on Linux due to bad past experiences a decade ago but honestly I decided to give it a try on real hw and for general use I am just blown out by how fast it feels even on a shitty laptop compared to """"debloated""" Windows
it's insane

>>106157983
I think bazzite is immutable by default. I could be wrong.

>>106157983
just use nobara then

>>106147503 (OP)
immutable oses will be the normie oses and thats a good thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CyWH6jx2pE

>>106158600
dnf and Discover don't even work on it

>>106147503 (OP)

>>106158450
That's the problem: it's only immutable. I wish there were a mutable version.

>>106147705
...how do you do stuff like mount stuff with fstab?

are you just not allowed to mount externals

>>106158642
I think fstab is still writable

>>106158638
Nobara is a mutable fedora based distro that targets gamers.

>>106158874
don't think nobara is considered "mutable". it's not as locked down as bazzite, or at all really

>>106159022
oh im dumb disregard

>>106147747
No, nix doesn't use flatpaks.

>>106158874
Nobara is complete crap and it needs to stop being shilled as a "preconfigured Fedora" by people who've never used it.

>>106159022
Nobara is mutable (i.e. just a normal distro), Bazzite is immutable.
>>106159070
Also this. Just use Fedora and install Steam.

>>106158028
Using Flatpaks instead of native packages makes zero perceivable difference in reality, which you'd know if you'd used Linux for any length of time. The benefits of Flatpaks far outweighs the larger filesize.

>>106147503 (OP)
>OS so shit you must make the root read only otherwise its "" high iq "" fanbase would destroy it in 5 minutes

>>106159178
>far outweighs the larger filesize
non-negotiable for me

Retards itt talking about immutable as the future when it has been a thing on Android and iOS for more than a decade. Same for Windows and macOS.

>>106159802
That's cool, you're not going to be forced to use immutables and flatpaks but I do think that's where the general userbase is headed towards.

>>106159836
>Retards itt talking about immutable as the future when it has been a thing on Android and iOS for more than a decade.
That's just more evidence that Linux desktop is headed the same way.
>Same for Windows
What?

>>106159849
Windows RT, even though that was a failure.

Hmmm why people hated Windows RT

>>106159893
Because it had a shit UI and barely any software worked on it

Hmmmmm

I use an immutable distro and its based for my usecase.
You need to know the limitations of the system, if thats not an issue for you I don't see any downside to using one.

>>106159836
yeah but android and ios do this by not letting you elevate yourself to root, immutable distros let you become root but do fucky workarounds to let you do as little as possible
this kind of abstraction always just makes it harder to troubleshoot things for those who would otherwise know what they're doing
>>106158642
i wanted to see how immutable silverblue is yesterday, see >>106148857
fstab was not in /etc, in fact nothing was in /etc, i have no clue where /etc would be, but i know that wherever it was passwd was not protected and probably neither are things like resolv.conf, shadow or fstab, if you can figure out where they actually are... this is painful

>>106147503 (OP)
>The future is immutable
bit transphobic innit

Its just good

>>106147503 (OP)
I will most likely still use windows 7 when fedora becomes fully immutable. And for my use case, it will probably still be more usable than most linux distros.

>>106162382
enjoy your zero-days baby duck

>>106162382
AeroThemePlasma works great on Fedora KDE!

>>106147705
The only thing that has a usecase is chromeos though.

>>106162427
>krashes

>>106147503 (OP)
souless
soulless
soulllllessss
and more souulllllllleesssss

>>106162427
too laggy, aero worked in a toaster, maybe get good in optimizing first

I dont care
i want to leave this thread as soon as possible, so post the background

>>106147503 (OP)
how do i use emac on the immutable?

>>106162433
Sex
with Hololive cosplayers

>>106162520
>aero worked in a toaster
it absolutely did not, take off your rose tinted glasses.

>>106157994
>some people don't want or need to have free access to their root
okay, so then if you cater to them you fuck over everybody else. how is that for everyone?
if they don't need to access or change it, then having that be an option doesn't affect them in the slightest.

>>106162480
Post beef.

>>106147705
>1. A retard proof system
I always see people tout this as the main selling point of immutable systems, but it's a shitty point to be honest.

First off, it's not a retard FRIENDLY system. Containers add an extra layer of bullshit and confusion, especially with regards to permissions--I literally saw a thread here just the other day where some retard was pissed off that his Steam flatpak couldn't see his Steam library drive (not realizing he had to explicitly set up the permissions). There needs to be a permission granting dialog, at the bare minimum. There are still a number of things that don't work or behave in weird ways when containerized, or otherwise aren't well-suited for containerization.

I would also say it's a solution looking for a problem. I don't think that it's actually all that common that someone will bork their core system, and if they did, they're probably someone who likes to tinker and wouldn't appreciate an immutable system anyway. Rollbacks are nice, but this is something that can be achieved with a modern filesystem like btrfs.

>(which is why valve made an immutable arch for steam OS)
They probably did it moreso because immutable systems make it easier for developers to deploy/manage/test updates.

>>106163160
>okay, so then if you cater to them you fuck over everybody else
Because you use a different distro, you fucking retard

>>106163481
Take meds.

>>106164057
>I always see people tout this as the main selling point of immutable systems, but it's a shitty point to be honest.
It's retard proof from the sysadmin's perspective, not the end user. You can set up a bunch of workstations with an immutable distro and it's much harder for your users to fuck it up, and it they somehow do you can roll it back easily.

>>106147503 (OP)
not my problem

>>106147761
stop noticing, goy

>>106147517
>SecureBoot
If things go well, never.

>The future is immutable
>except for that
>oh and that
>haha that too
>actually it's only a tiny part of root that's immutable hahaa

>>106147503 (OP)
>The future is immutable
int is_future_immutable(const char * const future) {
*(char**)future = "well fuck you, nigger";
return 0;
}