Embrace the Complexity Edition!!!

/gedg/ Wiki: https://igwiki.lyci.de/wiki//gedg/_-_Game_and_Engine_Dev_General
IRC: irc.rizon.net #/g/gedg
Progress Day: https://rentry.org/gedg-jams
/gedg/ Compendium: https://rentry.org/gedg
/agdg/: >>>/vg/agdg
Graphics Debugger: https://renderdoc.org/

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picrel sauce : https://www.gameenginebook.com/

Previsous: >>106120386

>>106189131 (OP)
These threads and /dpt/ have been failing to hit bump limit lately. Where did all the programmers that used to post here go?

what direction are you supposed to start from when developing an engine like that? anyway i was thinking about working on my own in vulkan but it's daunting as hell and i've debated on whether or not using an existing engine to prototype ideas first is more efficient before trying to tune my own system.

>>106189481
I would at least get experience using another hackable engine so you can get an idea of the pitfalls of bad design decisions.

>>106189369
I haven't been keeping tabs on /dpt/ for a long while now so idk about that but I'd /gedg/ is doing fine.
Its hard to make progress with game engine shit. Its also very common to give up on game engine shit. \
So not hitting bump limit is normal. What matters is(imho) the quality of progress that /gedg/ is making and it has been quite good, so all good, I'd say.
>>106189481
>what direction
you just Fuck Around and Find Out.
there is no right answer for that question as mileage varies from developer to developer.

>>106189369
I want to implement networking
For that I had to create some suitable commands that I can send over the network
For that I had to map commands to players
So I had to create a player component that can manage different players
The command was turn on/turn off which meant I head to deallocate it
I had a bug in my red black tree removal method, I fixed that
I had to update my data structure test project to a new version, turns out I hat two more bugs in my red black tree
Turns out there was another bug in my memory manager using my red black tree
I had to update my memory manager test project
I had to redirect user input to the network layer

Right now i am implementing the threads for managing UDP sockets.

glTF is too bare bones and USD support is spotty at best. It seems there's no good extensible 3D interchange format. UE5 project files will probably just become the default as Unreal continues to take over everything 3D related.

Why are windows and surfaces seperate objects?

>>106191529
glTF is for da web
OpenUSD is for digital content creation softwares(a must in vfx industry)
Both are very likely to stay forever. Gotta see.
>>106191734
because windows are a part of the operating system, collectively, and every operating system handles them as they see fit without a care for compatibility. Its fucked up.
So there was a need for having something like "surfaces" to abstract the windows away and deal with them somehow.

>>106191734
offscreen surfaces are useful

I'm going to have to take a break from my web based game engine development because I got a real job.

>>106193041
>web based game engine development
webgl or wgpu?

>>106193041
I stopped being a neet 8 months ago, adjusting to the lack of time took a while

Realized working solo might be futile
How do I join a team? I.e get a (remote) job as part of an indie dev team

>>106194517
>small indie dev team job
If that even exists, they are going to want portfolio of previous work

>Try to delegate small task to AI
>It is completely stumped by the borrow checker and goes in circles endlessly
Rust is job safety against LLMs.

do you guys care about vr?

>>106196124
does anyone?

Been working on client database sync stuff so far today, no progress webm

>>106196528
Too much eyestrain, I will personally never get in to it

>>106194517
>I.e get a (remote) job as part of an indie dev team

Work solo for a bit and release something or make tools.

>>106189369
I’ve been busy with other projects and my actual job. It sucks because I haven’t had the time to even shitpost here.

>>106190867
why not just use Steam Networking library which, among other things, gives you better latency because of their private ISP routing and gives you a free proxy that masks the real IP of your services to protect you from DDoS attacks
all for free

>>106197136
Because I am writing as much as possible if my engine against a memory save vm.

>>106197766
Also I don't think valve will let me use their relaying for free when I don't plan to be steam exclusive.

>>106197836
They do, as long as you release on Steam as well, Valve allows you to release on all platforms.

>>106196760
Here is a little on how that works
- When a client logs in to a prev. known server, the client shares its last sync epoch time with the server
- Server will provide updates since that epoch, so the client can front load that to its local database
Bedtime now, too tired to explain much else. Other than that, added event scheduling to the servers message queue. This is for things like chopping a tree, the entity we are interacting with has a definition which might queue the tree respawn after a few minutes.

bomp

An anon in another thread suggested I stop by here.
I'm working my way up to a legitimate game that I'm thinking I might want to have on Steam. But for now I am just slowly building competency with proof of concepts.
I am working in pygame because I have the best memory of python. I've tried C# before and it's a pain in the butt. Does it make more sense to stick to python to build competency, or am I only ever building things for myself using that langauge?

>>106200443
Build competency in what? Programming ability? Game design? Art? Also, what's the scope of your "legitimate game"? If is simple enough to be made using Pygame you may as well stick with Pygame

>>106200471
Programming ability.
The intended project months from now is a relatively simple dungeon-crawler physics game.
My concern is that, because it's *possible* to create my idea in pygame, I'll work ten times as hard to realize the vision instead of just doing it in a simpler way in unity/godot/etc because I have little formal training in programming. I'm worried I'll hit a wall and will have wasted my time. I have a day job so it's just a fun hobby at this point, but it'd be a shame to run into a wall. That's why I'm asking here.

>>106200508
NTA, but have you looked at Lua + Love2D. Lua is even easier to learn than Python and is much more popular in game dev.
My experience from 10+ years ago is that Pygame is horrible for anything non-trivial and it's only useful for learning, but that may have changed.

>>106200672
Thanks. I'll have a look.

I made a c++ json serializing using statically defined pointer to members maps with supported nesting and I'm bothered with the amount of templated code that has to be compiled for each structure and even encapsulated type combination. I'm tempted to just cast this shit to unsafe, raw untyped data to get rid of the bloat.

>>106202369
this kind of shit is why i cant wait for c++26 reflections. c# really has it on easy mode

runtime reflection adds overhead

I need to add some in game automation mechanics. Probably some "magic" powered tiles and levers for feeding ground items on a track. But I also think an npc task/slavery system would be nice, and makes more sense for "go mine iron ore" delegation vs something "magic" mine ore spawn?

>>106202924
you don't need to wait. just generate reflection code.
i'm using c# source generators to generate my own reflection, because the built-in is not good for serialization/games.

>>106198519
Progress for today:
- Created a calendar system class so I can track a synthetic "date" MM/DD/YYYY, with a 24 hour clock I have set for 1 second = 1 minute by default.
- I have 4 seasons, where I set the available types of "weather" for the season (eg: Winter can only have a snow, and blizzard). For the day/night cycle I will apply a filter to "darken" things on the screen overall (not ui elements). I don't have anything for dynamic lighting right now, maybe one day. The weather effects themselves are all shaders, which I had ready previously.

>>106193150
WebGL 1
I'm making improvements to do a sequel to a 3D web game I made that has ~100 daily users and they're all on chromebooks and tablets. Gotta get that lowest common denominator platform support.
According to web3dsurvey.com there's even a handful of extensions I can use that everybody has.

>>106189131 (OP)
genie 3 just destroyed this general. 1 year from now WoW will be made with 1 prompt.

https://x.com/GoogleDeepMind/status/1952732150928724043#m

>>106207522
See you next year then, maybe you can make a game!

>>106207522
>just destroyed this general
how?
I don't see any games published by that slop shit
>1 year from now
AGI was supposed to be 3 years ago though.
Not everyone is fine with slop shit like you, saar.
Accurate lighting, physics and detailed animations matter for good shit. AI could never perfect that.
Keep on coping.

>>106207522
also, how much does this shit cost?
I bet even AAA studios with over a day or two's worth of playtime in their games can't afford this shit.
Even (You) can't afford to play a simple game like flappy bird on this shit for more than a few minutes.
Imagine getting filtered for being poor for playing a flappy bird clone.
Truly hilarious hype.

>>106207965
>>106208012
why do you constantly have to respond to the AI shitposters?

>>106208045
I have to, to lessen the slop shill spam.

>>106197836
Tgnore what the other anon said, the networking library that is part of steamworks is proprietary, but the open source GameNetworkingSockets release is not parts of steamworks, it's a standalone library under BSD (but it has the same API as steamworks, if you wanted to opt-in).
But if you want your game to run on the web (because 90% of gen alpha prefer to play games on phones instead of PC's, and getting your game running on the web would make it easier for users to play and share in general). You need to stick to TCP because websockets are the only option.
>webrtc supports UDP like packet loss
Stick with a reliable protocol then worry about UDP (it's not that hard to support TCP and UDP). Webrtc is neat for peer to peer but if you aren't going to utilize that it's pointless (plus peer to peer shares IP addresses which means streamers are not going risk playing your game, and streamers are probably the only way to make a game viral by accident).
GameNetworkingSockets also supports peer to peer, but if you were sending a lot more data (microphone audio), you would probably benefit from webrtc's congestion algorithms (I don't think it would help with latency during optimal conditions, also webrtc has forced encryption with no way to disable it on the web, and websockets has a unencrypted mode). But if you wanted microphone audio on a native build (lets say you give people the option to play on the web AND native, because you need to debug the native build since wasm is harder to debug), you would need google's libwebrtc library which is probably going to make you realize that cmake is actually a good for C++, and google is going to show you that build systems could be much, much worse.

>>106208247
*also the main reason why you would want to switch to Steamwork version (you might be thinking, why not just release on steam using the open source library)
is because steam will protect the IP address for peer to peer games (I think steam offers it for free, but not for everyone?, but I haven't checked since then).

>>106208012
cost will be subsidized you moron. we don't need agi to generate game engines that have millions of open source repositories they can learn from. it takes ai 10 minutes to generate what you can do in months, let that sink in. google + xAI winning massively.

>>106208671
>cost will be subsidized you moron
link me google announcing that shit or fock off like a true retard
>it takes ai 10 minutes to generate what you can do in months
We know you and your AI can't do any real shit.
You keep on coming up with random stuff to cope about. Keep on coping.
Feel free to create a 3d game engine by using your google + xAI combo to prove me wrong.
Nobody's stopping you.
come on, go ahead.

>>106208752
I thought a lot of these posts praising LLMs and making big claims were just bait posts. But I took a look on YouTube without being logged in. There are countless videos about how some zoomer replaced his "team of developers" with "AI", selling courses and even prompts/workflows. There seems to be a direct need to exaggerate claims to make sales or at the very least get more clicks.

I use these tools every day. On a good day, it can make me about 30-40% more productive. But that's because I know how to use it well and most importantly know when NOT t. I have, several times, tried various "vibe coding" options (like Cursor). I've even paid money to try them out. They really like to generate code. Which is great for the boilerplate and basic stuff at the beginning. But once your project starts to get closer to the context size it starts to fall apart. You have to start being very selective, only let it see certain files and give it very precise instructions (like a very small and specific task). At that point you might as well just be pasting files into a regular language model, it doesn't give you much of an edge.

Now maybe in the future they'll figure out how to solve this. Some approaches like getting it to do a kind of Socratic dialog with itself or first produce a spec, then it reviews its own spec, then implements and so on. They seem promising but for the most part they just burn tokens. And all these tools start out great with "no limits" but even the paid tools are all putting limits (and they all seem to do that when they hit enough users). From what I can see the "agentic" stuff is just a meme. There's no actual hard data that shows getting it to talk to itself in a loop improves performance. But it costs tokens though. The best workflows I see are ones that have been really fine tuned for specific micro tasks (like run test coverage for what you changed and then set a new goal of adding tests automatically). But you can just do this manually.

>>106208752
He will show you next year, just you wait, he will finally make something

>>106208834
AI was already as good as it could be.
Just generating real time videos by slapping in more GPUs isn't an advancement but an application of the tech.
All the data has been scrapped. Training on more data will oversaturate and make the model perform much worse.
its over. Just a matter of time.
>>106208843
good for him.
I'm not a cripple that can't do shit without AI.
I can survive well without it so no waiting and pure action for me.

>>106209794
Don't forget that when these models also use their own outputs as training data they get much worse too. Even at a glance in things like image searches I see absolute slop results. AI maps and even anatomical diagrams that don't make any sense are likely being trained on by these newer models. And that's just at a glance with a handful of searches. I'm sure text is worse.

Even places like github are being shitted up with 250k-500k line projects of absolute slop. I don't know if you saw the chink's PR to some video editing tool? Hundreds of commits and pure slop. Critical stuff was removed in addition to lots of absolute nonsense code being added. "but it kind of does what I want" - even though it's a giant mess.

>>106209794
>>106209827
spoken like a true simpleton, elon is training grok 5 with synthetic data. don't presume you understand ai better than the richest man on the planet with the second best ai.

>>106209962
how can anyone be this subservient? are you indian?

>>106209962
>spoken like a true simpleton
I am a simpleton though, just not incompetent.
>elon
choke on his balls and donate all of your wealth and future earning to him so that he could build it much faster.
>don't presume you understand ai better
I didn't. I only presumed that I understand AI better than you.
>second best ai
and now come the same question second time
You've made a joke out of your AI shills last time by pointing out pricing and "Elon", both of which are highly irrelevant for attaining the title "best".
Do enlighten me on why it is second best, what is the first best and what determined this "best" thing.
>>106210122
>are you indian?
if Elon Mollosk was paying that anon, everything'd totally make sense of this fellow pajeet.

>insecure retards getting baited by low tier AI bait

>>106211617
biting the baits if fun than just bumping

>>106211275
https://x.com/tetsuoai/status/1954429989618844066#m

not mine, but I run a AI twitter account which was personally retweeted by elon himself. state of the art AI is google for now due to their inherent advantage of not using nvidia gpus, they probably have the smartest team deepmind.

how the fuck are old gba games so perfectly crafted...................

>>106212111
small incremental improvements over decades

>>106212111
Fixed point numbers, son

>the only good dds converter is locked behind registering an account with nvidia
i fucking hate how everything requires an account these days. back in my day we could just fucking download things

>>106212111
checked
the GBA is probably the programmer's perfect console. it and the virtual boy are a world ahead from everything that came after architecturally, simple and solid and massively effective.

>>106212791
It is quite annoying. At this rate even my compile is going to start demanding a username and password.. maybe I should write my own language to be safe

>>106189131 (OP)
I have a desire to make a very realistic tank driving and shooting simulator from a 3rd person perspective (no tank interior). Very similar to World of Tanks, but more detailed. War Thunder physics is bullshit, M3 Stuarts slide like crazy carpets on ice.

I've tried with Godot, but don't really jive with it. It felt like a lot of clicking and tedious tasks. Maybe I need to learn how to mirror actions so I don't create tank tracks two times - once for each side of the tank... Godot also forces you to use RigidBody3D, and other Nodes, and click through all their parameters. Too much navigating a UI and clicking to configure everything. I experimented with native VehicleBody3D and WheelBody3D, but am unhappy with their capabilities. It's not realistic enough and it required too much tweaking of their native parameters (which is a lot of UI navigation and clicking).

Does anyone know of a game framework that is more developer friendly, i.e., you can make models and give them physics programatically rather than slogging through a UI?

I'm open to using anything (You) have made if it allows me to create a realistic tank easily.

Added random effect selection with weights so I can have a pool of animations with the same start/end keyframes and play them in a loop (the breathing/blinking while the menu is up in this example).

What safety precautions can I add to my game if I’m making something like Inzoi/Sims but online multiplayer? I never understood roblox and never bothered to see what’s it about but there’s this youtuber that showed how bad it is for youth from creepy users.

For context I don’t have a messaging system in the game and it’s only based on emotes (like what Nintendo does)

Continued progress on laying track

>>106207019
6/6/06 Easter Egg is possible now

>>106214008
>It felt like a lot of clicking and tedious tasks
got filtered by editor's UI. I know its annoying but gotta bear with it.
>Godot also forces you to use RigidBody3D
so will unreal and unity. If you want to simulate tanks with accurate physics, rigid body is where all for newton's law of motion are at.
>Too much navigating a UI and clicking to configure everything
that's inevitable with any game engine
>I'm open to using anything (You) have made if it allows me to create a realistic tank easily.
sorry, what you are asking is something that requires a Ph and a capital D in physics and a lot of experience with programming and software development. Not something a single man can pull off as an amateur hobby project. It requires serious money and a bunch of highly skilled people to perfectly create what you are asking and its out of poor /gedg/'s scope.
>>106214873
noice

>>106214873
cute clown, nice smooth animations anon

Decided to take an old dead SFML project and move it to Raylib. A lot of cleanup needed, but maybe 3D is going to be easier than I expected. Happy with Raylib so far

>>106211617
taking bait head-on and successfully dismantling both it and the baiter is far better than ignoring bait.

>>106216188
no

>>106216201
you're as bad as baiters.

>>106216188
>dismantling bait
Yeah he's so fucking dismantled by your facts and logic. Totally destroyed by you showering him with (You)s.

Fucking retard.

>>106216222
no that'd be the guy who writes up pages of text in respond to low effort AI baiters
although this thread is fucking dead anyway so I guess it doesn't matter

>>106211673
>did not take any money
>got bought by a single retweet
A third rate whore is more expensive and interesting than you.
Let go of AI and find cling onto something worthwhile.
>>106216262
I was just bumping with replies at one point.

>>106216258
the point isn't directly contending with the baiter, you massive retard. it's about undermining the effect they're trying to have on the thread. if you quickly and succinctly do so, you made the bait have the opposite effect the baiter intended. if they start seething (like you) it's a bonus.

>>106216370
>early 2000s forum neckbeard tier idiocy
An achievement, really.

>>106216389
>continues to prove my point
>complains about the thread worsening while being the main cause

>>106189369
Too busy fixing boring bugs at the moment. I'll have some noteworthy progress in a few weeks maybe.

3d modeling is such a gooner hobby, im at half mast the whole time. also why didnt anyone tell me to use a base mesh at the start, learning how to just make clothes is pretty fun

>>106217608
mm yes ugly middle-aged women

>>106217693
yeah, i think those guys are funny. i keep getting older yet the age i find attractive is always the same

>>106217693
milfs are hot, chud

>>106217850
not that one

>>106216288
https://x.com/tetsuoai/status/1954524767534411829#m

keep coping, grok just one shotted doom 3d fps.

>>106217944
>git clone github.com/DOOM
Damn look at the one shot ability

>>106189369
People are programming instead of posting

Created various weapon sprites. and these rocks just now

>>106217944
you are the one coping with "AI will take over in a year. All of you are bums for not using AI"
I am just chilling without AI because I'm not AI crippled.
having more GPUs and more talent behind a product doesn't make it the "first best".
Your ranking of AI is as delusional as how much you believe that I'm coping.
>grok just one shotted doom 3d fps
so what?
>me opens unreal
>me creates a new project with 3rd person template
I zero-shotted a 3d fps game.
It looks like its not easy to make grok generate code for that, took several attempts and is also a very challenging task that requires getting the prompt right all the time while expecting the AI wouldn't fuck it up midway.
>>106217855
nah, that one too.
Its too early to that without looking with the textures on. Mesh without textures can be very misleading.
>>106218626
noice!

>>106218626
why would I prospect that crap? I see the color right there
same problem runescape had and they removed that option

>>106219391
Your default interaction key will do the first action by default. As for that, runescape did the wrong thing (as usual)

I posted in the bad thread, forgive me

>>106219320
grok writes the engine dumbass, ironic you would cite unreal. you belong in agdg.

Time to finally get rid of vertex attributes and switch to a vertex pull setup, will also implement some amount of dynamic state. Pipeline should becomes significantly easier to wrangle. Although if we’re beyond honest it’s the layout’s that are a pain to deal with.

>>106220792
>grok writes the engine dumbass
grok wrote three.js?
So grok AI has been around since 2010 and created engines back then but struggles to create a native engine now, after tow and half decades?
>you belong in agdg.
I belong in the asylum and you truly deserve a permanent rest 6 feet under for your brain dead AI shills.
Kindly do the needful, saar.

>>106214998
some kind of multi-layer challenge/response that locks being able to persistently play with the same person behind some kind of parental controls
the emote only thing is good though

>I never understood roblox and never bothered to see what’s it about
4chan but if each thread was actually a free to play game, you could pay extremely disproportionate amounts of real world money for crypto you could only spend to look gayer, and the mods openly paid people who made "good" posts in the gay crypto for significant amounts of actual labor with the promise they wouldn't plunge its value

literally all you have to do is have a moderation team at all and you'd be miles ahead
like aside from the constant reports of users being groomed, it's my understanding that organized crime in some third world countries would occasionally exploit young lua devlopers economically and made them work on roblox games
presumably it's venezuala since they were already doing something with runescape gold farming

>>106220818
>grok wrote three.js?
did you write your engine in assembly? what a self own lmao

>>106221133
everybody knows grok didn't write tree.js, you brain dead retard.
Thanks for showing that AI is shit and its shillers are shilling hype based on lies. Thank you for your retarded efforts, nobody will seriously rely on AI for game engines now.
gork only vomited three.js code. If you are too retarded to think that an engine's code base would fit inside a single tweet with a couple of scrolls length then...
Kindly do the needful, saar.

>AI game engine in JavaScript
where do you retards come from

>>106222411
this one spawned as a by product of Elon Mollosk's retweet of his tweet.

>>106222411
Retard tripfag and some others (some/all of which might just be the tripfag without his trip) keep feeding him.

>>106223603
>some/all of which might just be the tripfag without his trip
lmao. Thanks for letting me inside your head, saar. Its very comfy.

After 36 hours of vibe coding I finally did it, I can count the distance between 2 points. Its not 100% accurate though, but close enough.

>>106223634
>36 hours to do (x2,y2) - (x1, y1)?
you are cooked saar

>>106223649
before anyone tries to correct me, I know where exactly I'm wrong. Its completely intentional.

>>106223649
I cant read code, Ill have to copy paste this when musk gives me more credits

>>106223692
sadge

Should I use two sockets - one for sending and one for receiving - in my UDP Host?

>>106225499
what are you trying to do?
You will always need two sockets for a duplex communication.

>>106225535
I am trying to implement a dedicated server that should handle multiple clients.

>>106225560
you'll need two sockets.
If we consider a typical game scenario, you will have two sockets at each end, one for the user and another for the server. Initially, the user will be the sender that sends game data about entity position and properties to the server and the server will be the receiver that receives the entity's data and processes it for validation against cheating or storing it.
Once the server is done processing, the server will be the sender and the user will be the receiver when the server sends the acknowledgement that this entity with these properties is legit and the user and all the other users are allowed to interact with it.
So depending on from where to where you are transmitting the message, the sender and receiver changes. You only need one socket at each end and since its UDP, your server can have only one socket and that can be used for transmitting message over to all the clients. The server having to deal with multiple client requests at once will be annoying. Just implement a simple message queue and chill for starters.