Thread 106189631

I don't fucking get it, how does anyone use this to edit source code without moving your right hand to the arrow keys or the mouse and back literally all the time? It's so popular, yet the Vim + Neovim extensions have only like 8 million downloads together, what the hell are other people doing? This is ridiculous, everyone's shilling it and I thought it's gotta be good just maybe slowish, yet I can't figure out how does anyone do vertical or horizontal navigation properly. Maybe I want to jump to the parentheses on the current line or to actually take a look at the file without dragging my hand to the Page Up and Page Down buttons, which suck anyway because the cursor is moving all over the place so I can't actually understand what's going on. The truth is that I'm tired of going against the mainstream and doing things not the way normalfags usually do it, which is why I want to switch to VS Code, without using the Vim/Neovim extensions, yet I find this unbearable. Am I doing something wrong?

>>106189631 (OP)
Used to exclusively use neovim for a few years. C, C++, Python, at one low point Java..
I've been using VS Code without the vim extensions, I just... Don't use the mouse? Unless I'm jumping rather far or browsing the code I use the arrow keys.

I was honestly about to shill about how it really doesn't make that much of a difference to me, but I kinda forgot how nice it was to jump n lines, delete m words, &c. I'm gonna download that extension lol.

It's just a matter of workflow though, instead of using the normal search method of vim, its ctrl+f enter escape. instead of gd you just ctrl+click on the function. you become efficient as you adapt

i couldnt stand all the plugin cancer cause with that comes endless updates breaking any glue code you use to interface with them or just straight up turning into cryptominers

>>106189631 (OP)
>I don't fucking get it, how does anyone use this to edit source code without moving your right hand to the arrow keys or the mouse and back literally all the time?
you dont
if you want an autismo IDE you pick vim

>>106189723
It's not about speed or efficiency for me, it's about the desire not to move my right hand all the time. Moving the hand to the arrows is already undesirable, moving it to the mouse is even worse than that.
>Unless I'm jumping rather far or browsing the code I use the arrow keys
Well I don't want to do text navigation with mouse whenever I don't know what I'm searching for, otherwise I can jump to symbol

>>106189766
What's so autistic about not wanting to move your hand all the time? Are you saying that (advanced) VS Code users generally use their mouse all the time?
>pick vim
That's what I was using, but I want to join the mainstream now

>>106189631 (OP)
We are normal

>>106189631 (OP)
I find that basic bindings like ctrl+arrows, ctrl+shift+arrows, ctrl+backspace are good enough for most local navigation and edits. I don't feel much need to be able to skip straight to the previous opening paren with one key.
I do use the mouse a lot. It's explicitly designed for precisely selecting tiny items on a huge display, so I find it better to use it for its intended purpose instead of trying to avoid it. The scroll wheel is also a great fit when you need to scroll faster than a few lines at a time but slower than a page at a time, and I find that describes most of the scrolling I need to do.
My keyboard and mouse are both comfortable and they're right next to each other, so I don't feel any ergonomic anguish about switching.

>>106189800
>What's so autistic about not wanting to move your hand all the time?
the fact that you have to replace that simple interface with a plethora of functions you have to remember
>Are you saying that (advanced) VS Code users generally use their mouse all the time?
im not an advanced vscodium user
i use the most basic of features
its just design logic/whats written on the tin
vim is designed to be used without mouse
vsc is designed with a mouse in mind
>That's what I was using, but I want to join the mainstream now
why? use the tool that suits your hand, not what OTHERS use, they have different needs

what always pissed me off about vim is that movement is hjkl and not jkl;
You know, where your hands would be when you want to touch type. The fucking home keys. I get its historical, but changing your layout is a fucking chore, especially when its preconfigured on every server and computer you login to.

>>106189959
>why?
For me it's more pleasant to do things the way everyone else does them, generally. I feel some kind of peer pressure to do things the mainstream way, I guess.

>>106190008
>I feel some kind of peer pressure to do things the mainstream way, I guess.
its good that you identify that
just realize that in doing so
youre dissolving your individuality
and you end up submitting to the will of others
sometimes to your own detriment
which i think will be the case here.
i really dont think vscode will be a good fit for a no-mouse workflow
but i might be wrong, im not a vsc guru. adn whats the worse that can happen from trying?

>>106190056
>whats the worse that can happen from trying
The mouse? I don't know, I guess I could try that.

>>106190132
the mouse or no-mouse vsc
if i were you id try to adjust the software to my workflow, not the other way aorund

a tool is supposed to serve who wields it, not the other way around

>>106189631 (OP)
>There exists people different than me.
>How is this possible?
Most people understand that others exist beyond being mere props sometime in toddlerhood.

>>106189631 (OP)
Stop being retarded. Using a popular IDE with all the niceties is the favor you can you do yourself.
Need a plugin? Click and download and it comes with fucking sane defaults, you don't have to waste hours reading the docs, checking you don't have a clashing configs
And then comes the text edition as such. Just fucking type. No modes, no learning a gazillion strokes to transform the text. Sure dd is faster than home -> ctrl + shift + end -> delete. But guess what. Every fucking text editor supports that as the way to delete a line (just recently I found that shift + delete also deletes a line a puts it on the clipboard, at least in vscode).
You're splitting hairs over text editon and motions when the important thing is to get the job done and guess what. VSCode is made to make you productive, not make you look like a h4x0r. Grow up kiddo

>>106189775
>It's not about speed or efficiency for me, it's about the desire not to move my right hand all the time
So you enjoy being a little snowflake that no one gets? Great

nigga just use the fucking extension
>switches to VS Code for productivity and less configuration
>VS Code is literally known for trivial extension use, which is where it power derives from
>oh no no no, I cannot use the fast hotkeys extension!!!
what the fuck man

Neovim is nice but it's the C++ of editors and just like c++ if you removed 90% of features it would be at least 90% better to use.

Isn't there a VIM motions extension for it?

jumpy2 is a based extension

>arrow keys
my keyboard has a numpad

>>106190661
you see this shit time and time again in every facet of life
someone does not do "thing," hence does not understand "thing," hence shits on other people for doing "thing" in order to try and flex on the other person or whatever
anyway, eventually "thing" is learned and the light is seen.
I just find it very funny that humans will go through this process of seeing the light in countless facets of life, but still they continue to shame those they do not (yet) understand.
yes, Vim's keybindings are fucking great once you learn them. no, they do not make you insanely more productive. yes, they do make using other tooling an absolutely dogshit process. yes, there is probably a better abstraction for editing text than Vim that I do not know of, and yes, I probably would disagree with it at first glance without trying it.
just like motherfuckers will write in languages where IFs are statements rather than expressions, and complain about ternary expressions or whatever.

>>106189631 (OP)
The Dubuffet in this thing is horrible I mean worst I’ve ever used in my life.

>>106190778
No one is born learnt and that just part of the human experience. Feels warm and fuzzy to realize that 4chan has groiwn and become wiser, despite enjoying being assholes to each other.

>>106190661
I don't understand why are you all giving me a hard time about it, is not wanting to move your hand to the mouse somehow a bad thing? It's not something completely impossible, it's possible in Vim at least.

>>106190688
I can, but it's not mainstream, is it?

>>106191024
Let me put it like this. If you want to climb a mountain by rolling, I bet you can do it. Is it fast or efficient? No. Will you prove anything? Sure that you can climb a mountain by rolling. By the time you reach the top everyone will be back at base camp having lunch.
So to give you props, you can even reconfigure vscode to the point you remap the whole keyboard. Nothing stops you.
But hey, don't come bitching about why eveyone is climbing walking using all four limbs when you can perfectly roll to the top.

>>106191107
This makes no sense because using the keyboard only is generally convenient

>>106189631 (OP)
i use notepad++, black background white text, no syntax highlighting

>>106191024
No, it's completely fine. Having to move your hands to the arrow keys or the mouse all the time while typing is annoying.
Replacing your editor just because a lot of others learn something else is way weirder, in my opinion. You already put in the effort of learning vim, which is why most others wouldn't use it, why waste that?

>>106191107
That analogy works for you because you didn't learn a better alternative to using the mouse, doubt it would make sense for him.

>>106189631 (OP)
VSCode sucks so much asshole it's unreal
It is lacking so many basic fucking features


>Have 10 tabs open
>Click close all other tabs
>Have to individually tell editor you don't want to save the closed tabs 9 fucking times

Even notepad++ has the option to just say no to all.

Fucking garbage

>>106191454
>>106191129
I was a heavy vim user circa 2008-2010. Did the whole circus
>le custom scripts on filetype
>remap caps lock to esc
>setup the plugins to get basic functionality like a file browser
>custom commands here and there
>thank god for pentadactyl

Did a take on neovim a few months ago, because "the plugin system is so good". I just can't arsed to setup my IDE, sorry, text editor, to offer basic shit that comes out of the box in any decent editor for decades now, like autocomplete. So while you setup ctags I'm just get going. Everyone is gonna be running past you on vscode while you're trying to figure out if the plugin you're to use to mimic the behaviour you want is properly developed or if you setup isn't just working right

>>106191768
What does this have to do with anything, we're talking about vim motions in general

>>106191973
Oh, I thought whoever posted this >>106191454
was assuming I don't know my way around vim, how to use it or configure it. So please read the thread before asking retarded questions.

>>106192008
Well what do you do then, use the mouse? How often? For what tasks?

>>106189631 (OP)
>>106189766
I have this feeling that autistically minmaxing ergonomics so you move as little as possible and force the body into repetitive small motions is what actually causes RSI.

I have only ever used a regular keyboard and mouse or laptop+trackpad for 30 years and I don't have RSI. You should be moving, not setting up some ergonomic perfection that functionally treats your body as a tool to generate output (keystrokes) and nothing more.

>>106192029
>Well what do you do then, use the mouse?
Yes
>How often?
When it's easier than thinking for longer than 2 seconds to think what key sequence will get me the result I want when I can be half way through just clicking.

>For what tasks?
Git management inside vscode with git lenses (selecting branches and which files to compare)
Multicursor of unrelated strings
Quick scrolling with precise stopping
Quick & precise block selection, faster than visual blocks, although you can actually enable that on vim too.

One thing I do miss are macros. That shit is good but doesn't justify throwing everything over that feature.

arguing vim vs vscode is like arguing about windows vs linux - why the fuck would you use anything other than linux and vim

>>106192260
Except distros do a great job at making linux usable. Maybe vim lusers need some distro-like distribution system where basic functionality is guaranteed

>>106192303
but neovim distros literally exist and are popular

>>106192370
Are you talking about these? I gave a few a spin but still found them lackluster. Granted it was around neovim 0.5.0. Last time I checked neovim was version 0.10.0 and the plugin system refused to work with the guide, and if I'm correct they introduced breaking changes in the api model or something

this is how you spot the nocoder.
programming isn't about text typing (unless you're a go programmer). the amount of time spent on text typing is negligible in comparison to thinking.

>>106192408
no, these are GUIs, I'm talking about essentially these:
AstroNvim (https://astronvim.com)
LunarVim (https://www.lunarvim.org)
NvChad (https://nvchad.com)
LazyVim (https://www.lazyvim.org)
I believe the last one is the most lightweight one

>>106192454
Of those the only one that rings a bell is lazyvim, which I tried to setup but might have been broken at the time due changes in nv 0.10.0.
What I can tell you about lazyvim is that is not a distro, You're expected to set it up yourself and come with no warranty -- the setup you're trying to do is not supported or plugins might clash with each other with no heads up on their side.
The others seem to be in the same way.
What I meant is an actual packaged binary/script that you just run and get everything set up for you. Most want that convenience.
AstroVim seems to be that but I would actually need to try it before I make a judgement.

>>106192570
What do you mean? Last time I tried it all that was necessary was to clone the starter repo into ~/.config/nvim and then launch neovim. It would then install a bunch of plugins on the first launch, but support for languages needed to be installed manually from the extras menu that shows up on startup

>>106192707
>clone the starter repo into ~/.config/nvim
yes
>and then launch neovim. It would then install a bunch of plugins on the first launch
that happened too.

I selected my wanted plugins (a lot of TS/JS, some java as well) but autocomplete wasn't working and searching for function definition wasn't working as expected (some hit and miss). For java trying to configure the compilation and launching never worked and dreaming of a debugging step-by-step seemed out of the question.
So in the end, I ended with a bunch of cloned repos (depending on the plugin) but some didn't seem to load and other were not working as expected. Heck I was willing to put up with the non working plugins but those who misbehaved was just too much. YMMV

>>106189631 (OP)
>Am I doing something wrong?
No, that's just how it's designed.

>>106192447
I said that Vim isn't about speed or efficiency for me, I'm just too lazy to move my hand from the home row to the mouse all the time. Keeping the hands at the home row is relaxing

>>106192778
Java support with nvim is horrendous, especially if you have older java codebases, JDTLS doesn't work with a JDK under 21 I think? or was it 17?
Debuggers are also a non-starter for java afaik.
In regards to compilation / starting I don't understand what you mean, are you trying to press a button like in intellij and have it build plus run rather than running a command in your terminal for whatever build tool your project has? (maven, gradle etc)

>>106193063
>Java support with nvim is horrendous, especially if you have older java codebases, JDTLS doesn't work with a JDK under 21 I think? or was it 17?
To be honest it was a java 8 project so I won't blame them. It was a truly fucking horrible project written by fucking pajeets that left a fucking mess. fucking fucking fucking pajeets. fuck

>Debuggers are also a non-starter for java afaik.
I don't know. The best-in-class debugger I've ever seen was the Visual Studio (not code but the real deal) working on .NET. That shit even allowed to step-back and watch the trace. Haven't seen anything like that anywhere else and I've given gdb and pdb (for python) a spin. In VSCode once setup you can at least have breakpoints and a nice panel with the current stack and memory values

>In regards to compilation / starting I don't understand what you mean, are you trying to press a button like in intellij and have it build plus run rather than running a command in your terminal for whatever build tool your project has? (maven, gradle etc)
Again in vscode, you just type a json with the config you want (a la makefile) and will launch the project and attach the debugger with a single keystroke/click. But couldn't make it work on nv

>>106193178
>Java 8 project
Hell yeah brother, I know that pain, forget nvim for that codebase in particular.

>>106193195
Best irony was that these were some consulting called Capgemini, they had their named plastered all over the packages names. Some time later a recruited called me and it was them.
>Hello Sir we are contacting you from Capgemini to recruit you as dev, are you available
the laughs that day were unreal

Why is no one designing new keyboard-oriented text editors, but like, for the mainstream audience

>>106193548
the mainstream audience (normies) can barely use keyboards. your only choice is the church of emacs or cult of vi.

>>106189631 (OP)
Why are you against the plugin? Just use it if you're comfy with vim binds.

>>106193693
Desire to be compliant with the mainstream I guess. But for more practical reasons, last time I used it, it meshed badly with VS Code standard keybinds, any way to fix that?

>>106189800
the autism is that the speed in which you write code is completely irrelevant
the vast majority of code-writing is thinking and debugging
so yeah in the grand scheme of things vim saves you like 0.1% of your time
willing to sacrifice all this time to learn the bindings for a close to zero increase in productivity is autism

>>106189631 (OP)
You produce masses of slop code. Your hands shouldn't be the bottleneck of your productivity. If you are limited by typing speed, you don't think about your code enough. You are indians and bootcamp coders who will all be replaced by AI eventually, since ChatGPT types faster then your riced neovim ever could.

>>106194117
just because you do not screw things together often does not mean that a drill is more convenient than a screwdriver
there are many, many times where Vim's text editng utilities have come in use for refactors. exploration of code is easier when driven by a keyboard.

>>106189631 (OP)
when you'll work in a real code base you'll hopefully have a senior teach you the search shortcut and you won't need to care about faggy vim crap

>>106194222
>exploration of code is easier when driven by a keyboard.
how so?
Either you know what you are looking for, so you ctrl+f or you don't know, so you are limited by your reading and comprehension speed

>>106194276
LSP by hovering over an identifier and doing g[oto]d[efinition]
hover over a definition and doing g[oto]r[eferences], which you have set up to open a Telescope menu where you can fuzzy search all references in your codebase
FZF for fuzzy searching
fuzzy searching of your current buffer

>>106194327
you can do all that with a mouse too

>>106194347
I have used both mouse and keyboard-driven workflows, have been programming for over a decade, and am stating as an objective fact that using the keyboard is more efficient. there are more inputs accessible on a keyboard when compared to a mouse. maybe a trackpad could be better if you incorporated gestures, but I do not see that being done anywhere.
and yes, this speed is absolutely important. sure, you might spend more time thinking, but having a delay between decision and action by needing to do manual work is not far different from a slow compiler.

>>106194385
you spent a lot of time mastering the keyboard shortcuts and now are looking for a reason to justify your wasted time
it's called cope

now if you just told me, I just like it and I think it's cool, and I like to pretend I'm a l33t haxxor you would have convinced me, but cut it out with the productivity BS

>>106194117
>>106194163
I literally said that it has nothing to do with speed or efficiency or productivity for me, I just don't want to move my hand to the mouse all the time. It's annoying. Keeping hands on the home row is relaxing.

>>106194537
that's a valid reason
for me if I ever learned it, it would be to pretend that I'm better than my coworkers

>>106189631 (OP)
OK, but what do you anons use? GNU Emacs, Vim, Neovim, VS Code, VS Code with a Vim/Neovim extension, something else?

>>106194527
womp womp, you're too retarded to understand the concept of bandwidth
if I had to work with you in a shared cooding session I'd probably recommend you to invest a bit of time into the tooling that you use every fucking working day.

>>106194769
Leo
https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor

>>106194769
Emacs the problem is I have to use windows for work so I often wanna kill myself with how some shit just doesn't work or is far too slow. I download vscode at one point but it's just not snappy and gross. I'll prob have to switch to it eventually for Claude code and whatever

>>106194814
>in 100% Python.
Actually felt my stomach twist inside when I read this

>>106194834
because you're retarded and incapable of relating the concept of `eval()` to infinite configurability at runtime.

>>106194847
Just use emacs

>>106194873
no multithreading

>>106194796
>shared cooding session
sounds gay

What's with neurotic obsession about not moving your hand?

>>106195201
It seems like it needs to be done too often, uncomfy

programmers that use vi or emacs are better than programmers who don't. this is a fact.
if you disagree (with a fact, mind you) then you're just coping and mad because bad.

kek, code monkeys be seething at software engineers.

>>106191024
>is not wanting to move your hand to the mouse somehow a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing. It's just a "niche, only you" thing. And what's bad is you failing to realize that.
I don't drink cold water. ever. But I know that's just my quirk and I'm not gonna go sperg out "I don't understand why people like cold water".

Do you understand?

>>106192447
Programming is like 20% typing, 40% reading code and 40% thinking. That's why formatters and coding standards are more important than fucking hotkeys if we're being honest, lmao.

Its really quite simple. My mouse is sideways on the desk in front of my keyword. My fingers are like an inch away from the arrows.

>>106195353
he's just trying to humble-brag for learning the vim key-bindings
he is spamming it in every thread
turns out autists are not very good at humble-bragging

>>106194820
use pgtk emacs from wsl2.
this way windows will use wslg and will render it with its own wayland compositor. this way it works significantly faster and responsive than win32's native emacs build.

personally i use helix and I just like how it's fast and fun to work with, it's not necessarily about the ergonomics.

>>106194769
I'm using zed, nvim gave me some headaches with plugins breaking and shit. The vim mode is serviceable.

>>106189775
>It's not about speed or efficiency for me, it's about the desire not to move my right hand all the time.
How is this not the definition of autism? Do you need to count the number of Rs in every line and stomp your foot 3 times before hitting enter too? (Not because of efficiency, of course, just because you want to do it.)

Anyways, most people "use" VS Code simply because they use Windows, and it's one of the best lightweight, feature rich, language agnostic choices on the platform. And then, people who move from Windows to Linux use VS Codium to maintain a familiar experience.

There's nothing special about VS Code that makes it worth using over everything else, especially if it doesn't innately support your autistic desires. It would be like switching to Windows 11 to be normal like everyone else when you are a contrarian Linux command line autist at heart.

>>106189631 (OP)
>slowish

Ditch your 20-year-old cum-encrusted Thinkpad and get a new computer.

>>106194163
You are coping
>>106194576
Validates my initial point.

If your wrist is hurting you are typing too much. Slow down and let your brain do some work before you fill the codebase with slop next time.

>>106189631 (OP)
it does not matter how fast you move that's why it's not an issue for most people

>>106191768
>neovim
im you but instead of moving to IDE or VSCode or even neovim, i just drilled down into bare vim + LSP. Ale is the only plugin i use and it just seemlessly works with LSPs already installed on my system.
my vimrc is shorter than it's ever been and i barely touch it anymore. there was an initial learning/tinkering cost and i used to spend countless hours making my setup "cool" but i dont waste time learning or tinkering anymore. getting myself out of the plugin/customization grind and learning to do things the vim way has done wonders for my peace of mind.

>>106189631 (OP)
> without using the Vim/Neovim extensions, yet I find this unbearable. Am I doing something wrong?
No, it's quite normal for Windows products to sacrifice UX because their motto is easy to use which usually ends up being painful to use. Vim and Emacs plugins make it more ergonomic, which is the point of plugins

Helix emulation extension

>>106189631 (OP)
>sneeding about moving your hands too much
https://www.cursorless.org/

>>106195297
I use nano. I tried a lot of them and I just can't. I don't get it. is it some productivity thing? I code for pleasure, on my projects. I don't have to deliver at certain time, I just have to enjoy it and do my shit. anything else than nano+grep screams of "try-hard/have deadline" slaves

>>106199900
>nano+grep
and rarely sed

>>106189631 (OP)
So do I choose VS Code with native keybindings or VS Code with the Vim extension? Recommend something to me, anons.

>>106198732
More like Helix dilation session.

My escape and arrow keys are broken so I have to use mouse most of the time anyway,

>>106191701
>leaving unsaved pending edits in 9 open tabs
Use version control software you retard.

>>106191768
>So while you setup ctags I'm just get going. Everyone is gonna be running past you on vscode while you're trying to figure out if the plugin you're to use to mimic the behaviour you want is properly developed or if you setup isn't just working right
it's the complete opposite
All my colleages don't know shit about their editor and even if they did, they can't do anything microsoft hasn't preordained.
I can seemlessly integrate dozens upon dozens of things into my workflow and everything is unified under the terminal ecosystem.
And I also know what is actually happening and adjust to any situation, because I understand my tools and the tools I use respect my autonomy to let me orchestrate my workflow however I want.

>>106192303
>>106192370
vim distros fundamentally suck though. They're completely missing the point. People just end up where they were with IDEs. They don't know their tools, they don't know how to change them, and they're stuck dealing with someone else's setup.

>>106194527
NTA
the real reason why vim and keyboard driven workflows in general are better is that mouse operations require way more back and forth between the computer and you.
You can't just tell the computer what you want to do. You first have to locate a UI element on the screen and then precisely move the cursor to that position and click it.
Of course that's not a big deal. But when you experience NOT having to do that it is mind blowing how much more pleasant it is to just issue commands to the machine without any preamble or back and forth.

e.g. if I want to open a file I tell the computer to open the file. I don't have to scroll through a project-tree, or look through my open tabs, or anything like that.
It's definitely faster, but the more important aspect is that its so much more comfortable. Less interruptions less mental headspace taken up by mundane operations.

>first you press the action button
>then you select where you want to perform the action
I think vim was made as a joke but people use it unironically to feel special