Thread 106226243

>you need to make your own language if you want to develop video games
Ok, don't know much about developing video games but which specific parts of his games require a whole new language? How hard would be to recreate them in Unity and C# instead?

I'll just guess that SDL3 will do more for game programmers than Jai

>>106226243 (OP)
I think the idea is that using existing frameworks gives you assembly line tier repetitive shit

>>106226243 (OP)
he's a retarded overthinking chinless balding chud. though

>>106226243 (OP)
To write a good novel you have to make your own language.
Yeah arrogant dicks are abundant in game dev

>>106226243 (OP)
Jon never said this out loud. We can argue if he implies it though. Same with making your own game engine.
>>106226279
this, but Raylib is way easier and more modern.

>>106226732
Threads must flow! My rage is limitless!

>>106226243 (OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDK

I think you are missing his point. He is not saying that you need to develop a whole new language to do game dev, he is saying that the languages that exist now are not really suited for it.
>C
A fast language that is a tad bit too bare minimum. It feels like you are building a kernel every time that you make a new project and often it feels like you are being forced to write your own libraries just to be productive.
>C++
Like C, but better at about frameworks and built in utilities. You still need to do a lot of work with tooling and address domain specific issues
>Rust
Like C++, but terrible for prototyping. You will spend more time doing type masturbation then actually making your game.
>C#
Actually pretty good for game dev, but you do pay a performance cost.
>Jai
In theory its supposed to be a domain specific language that handles all the use cases one would need for game dev. It is supposed to have the speed of C while not making you have to roll your own libraries and do less general boiler plate. Whether or not jai lives up to this is yet to be seen.

>>106226243 (OP)
He caught the disease that Chris Crawford did back in '92.

>>106226243 (OP)
If you don't want to pay licensing fees, you do.

>>106226243 (OP)
a poor craftsman blames his tools, a great one improves them

>>106226243 (OP)
We already have a language for games and graphics stuff, it's called Odin.

>>106226822
couldn't you try being less brown instead

>>106227895
ultimately jai will prove to be too barebones - just make a game-types will prefer engines (ie c#) while major devs like epic et al will stick to c++ in spite of all its flaws from inertia

>>106229498
people complained about fortran, but if nobody would have made anything better, we'd still make "god is real unless declared integer" jokes

His points would carry a lot more weight if he made games people actually want to play, over and over again

>>106229592
is this a time warp joke

>>106227895
his point might be right, but jai is simply mental masturbation. every game (good or bad) has been made in a language not jai, the burden of proof is on him to be able to create something with process that is better than what we have now
unfortunately the discussions are very shallow, and people who haven't tried jai are too quick to bring up jai alternatives which they also had not tried (you see it in this thread with odin, soon to be mentioned zig, go, etc)

it's high time to accept that objects are actually good

>>106229498
yeah, I can imagine it having a niche userbase like odin or zig
people that actually want to make games will keep using godot or unity or unreal

>>106229655
Yeah I totally didn't spend time doing games and graphics in Odin, I just mentioned it for no reason.

>complains about people not adding anything, doesn't add anything

Fucking faggot.

>>106226243 (OP)
>you need to make your own language if you want to develop video games
Maybe he means develop a fictional language to add immersion to the story. Like Monster Hunter and Nier.

>>106226243 (OP)
Jai is actually pretty cool from what I've seen. I want a simple c like language that can do everything from scripting, webshitpipeline to game dev

>>106226243 (OP)
now he's seething about people being satisfied with Linux and not making new OSes while he's stuck on Windows. conveniently doesn't mention a single problem that new OSes would solve. this may be the hardest i've cringed at him.

>>106226243 (OP)
>>you need to make your own language if you want to develop video games
It just works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp

The witness is so goated that I trust him

>>106226629
>this, but Raylib is way easier and more modern.
Uhhhuhuhuh... no.

Jai is actually very good even in its unpolished beta state.
>>106229465
>>106229981
Odin shill shoo.
>>106229432
>>106229592
The man may take ages to make games but every game he has made has been very successful.

I'm too dumb to use a language with zero editor support.

>>106232915
I learned programming from the top down using Unity first then C++ in Unreal. If I can do it, so can you.

10x, Emacs, VSCode, as well as a few others all have at least syntax highlighting for Jai. Really wish there were a CLion plugin though.

>>106229598
No, his games are not fun enough to justify picking them up again after beating them the first time, or even finishing them at all
All those big brains of his and he can't make a game thats FUN
Not SMART
But F U N

>>106232290
>he got filtered by InitWindow and CloseWindow
lol, go back to wokot

>>106229474
project more saar

>>106226480
Over 30% of men past the age of 35 are balding.

Over 60% past 55. If you still have hair and don't have a just fuck me up hairline past 35 you just got lucky that's it

>>106227895
>In theory its supposed to be a domain specific language that handles all the use cases one would need for game dev
no it's not its just his weird variant of C++

>>106226243 (OP)
He looks like Karl Pilkington's less likable, even dumber brother

I'm still waiting to see metaprogramming done in Jai.

>>106233042
indeed

>>106229655
>unfortunately the discussions are very shallow, and people who haven't tried jai are too quick to bring up jai alternatives which they also had not tried (you see it in this thread with odin, soon to be mentioned zig, go, etc)
I've noticed this, too. I've been able to find out more about jai with the leak and I'm liking what I'm seeing, but there are barely any serious comparisons to the alternatives

Is zig's comptime as good as jai's cte?
Does any language come close to jai's compile-times?
Is Odin really better off not having metaprogramming or is it a cope?
Who got the best interoperability with C/C++ (I'm guessing zig)?

tbf, it's a hard ask to get into like 4+ languages just to determine which one is slightly better than the other (especially when they all succeed at btfo'ing C/C++)

>>106233307
>I'm still waiting to see metaprogramming done in Jai.
buddy, every jai program does metaprogramming...

>>106232290
Creating a new shader language, as SDL3 is doing, is not the way forward

>>106233569
enlighten us: what is the way to have crossplatform shaders, then?

>>106233641
There’s nothing wrong with glsl or hlsl

>>106234012
>glsl or hlsl
not crossplatform

>>106234019
Which platforms are they a problem on?

>>106226480
Lol he literally has like over 140 IQ. Some people are like that, while others like you seethe over it.

>>106226243 (OP)
>you need to make your own language if you want to develop video games
nobody ever said this
>Ok, don't know much about developing video games but which specific parts of his games require a whole new language?
none. it's about the development process. you could make all this in cpp, but it wouldn't be a pleasant experience
>How hard would be to recreate them in Unity and C# instead?
near impossible

>>106234038
I don't know all supported (shaderlang <-> rendering api <-> platform) combinations off the top of my head, but there are reasons why basically every game engine does some form of shader cross compilation. Mind you the reasons are all retarded, but they do exist. Here is an article explaining the situation by I believe one of the SDL_GPU people: https://moonside.games/posts/layers-all-the-way-down/

You do have the option of restricting yourself to just glsl/hlsl and then do the cross compilation from those, but then you will run into issues where a feature is implemented in hlsl but not in your transpilation target language or vice versa. So now you have to disallow that feature or add a new feature to the language. Oops, you just created another shader language...

>>106233355
>buddy, every jai program does metaprogramming...
what do you mean?

>>106234051
You can have high IQ and still be retarded.

>>106234110
the build system is a metaprogram. Any non-trivial program will have a #run { ... } section to instruct the compiler on how to build the program. In fact, the compiler uses a jai metaprogram for its command line argument parsing and "-help" text, which you can override and supply your own.

>>106234119
You're just misusing the word "retarded".

>>106234133
He had high IQ and yet was a complete retard.

>>106234147
In your opinion, yes, you are free to have your subjective opinion, anon.

has jon blow gaslit people into thinking that metaprogramming is an important language feature

>>106234159
You are an idiot and probably a webshitter if you don't see how it is a game-changer.

>>106234088
If a feature doesn’t exist in one of your targets, you shouldn’t be using it, or you should only use it on that platform.
The equivalent would be making a new language because not all CPUs support x86.

Also, to be clear, the systems that have problems are peak performance on consoles, or using DirectX and Metal — all cases where you would still have to go in and rewrite them to get any benefit anyway.

Language is barely a factor when making a game, games where you think "man this game is great but would be even better if they had coded it in another language" do not exist.

>>106234221
Congratulations this is probably the dumbest post in this thread.

>>106234218
>If a feature doesn’t exist in one of your targets, you shouldn’t be using it, or you should only use it on that platform.
I just covered that. If you disallow an hlsl feature because you can't map it to a target language 1:1 in your compilation, you are no longer using hlsl, but your own subset dialect of it. So now you don't support standard hlsl anymore and people have to learn your dialect. And as you increase your targets your subset becomes smaller and shittier. This is not a problem a framework/engine/language designer can solve. It originates from all the way down the stack.

>>106234282
It’s an extremely common thing to do, you even have to specify your version target in the very first line of every GLSL file. It is, again, no different from either using exclusively C++17, or putting C++20/C++23 features between #ifdefs.

>>106234129
>the build system is a metaprogram
ok but that's irrelevant
>Any non-trivial program will have a #run { ... } section to instruct the compiler on how to build the program.
>In fact, the compiler uses a jai metaprogram for its command line argument parsing and "-help" text, which you can override and supply your own.
ffs, also irrelevant. who gives a shit about the build system

aren't there libraries that parse a binary or string format where the parser functions are generated from the grammar spec inside a #run block for example?

Fuck his shitty game, fuck factorio but most importantly fuck stardew balley.

>>106226243 (OP)
>you need to make your own language if you want to develop video games
>makes a walking simulator and a sokoban

>>106234330
it is completely different. But hey, you could easily prove your point by showing me a project that only uses glsl OR hlsl and ships to different platforms with different architectures and operating systems WITHOUT the use of shader cross compilation.

>>106234364
>that's irrelevant
you said you were "waiting to see metaprogramming done in jai". Is your actual question what metaprogramming is good for?

>>106234435
>>that's irrelevant
yes, I'm waiting to see the kind of metaprogramming that can only be done in Lisp
Makefiles ain't metaprogramming

But saar how am I supposed to use Jai when LLMs don't know it?

>>106234180
you're probably a webshitter if you think metaprogramming is new

Look at what zoomers did to the man.

>>106234455
>yes, I'm waiting to see the kind of metaprogramming that can only be done in Lisp
the parser generator example you mentioned should be possible in jai, as the metaprogram can read files, generate functions and data types from them and the actual program can work with placeholders that tell it that the code will be generated at compile time.

I know Lisp-level macros in an imperative language is the goal, but I haven't looked too deep into it.

>Makefiles ain't metaprogramming
depends on what your makefile was doing.

>>106234476
Metaprogramming like Jai does it has not been done by any other language.

>>106234560
ever heard of lisp?

>>106234560
How does Jai do it?
I'm genuinely curious.

>>106234712
it has compile-time hooks that allow you to manipulate the AST

>>106234733
Like Rust's macro?

>>106226243 (OP)
What he's really saying is that you need good marketing to make a lot of money. Case in point, you're talking about his stupid takes on a mongolian basket weaving forum.