Thread 106299701

Every year you have "X will replace lithium-ion" but not a single one succeeds

>>106299701 (OP)
Lithium-ion is hard to beat, though Solid state will be a good advancement in energy storage tech once it comes around.

>>106299701 (OP)
That's because people theorize "X would be good at holding a charge", but they don't take into consideration the production cost, availability of materials, and a bunch of other factors that end up being dealbreakers. But the news get paid for hyping it up anyway.

Any improvements will be great when they eventually arrive.

Lifepo4 already killed ion, even cars are coming with them now despite the lower range because they excell at everything else.

>>106299827
the electrolyte is still a lithium ion lol

>>106299806
if by improvements you mean energy density its not happening unfortunately

>>106299701 (OP)
Because of sensationalism and higher production costs.

>>106299701 (OP)
We peaked 70 years ago

>>106300199
>pressure relief device
>radiates you your family your house your environment
nothing personell kiddo
sleep tight radioactive moon of chernobyl

>>106299701 (OP)
>Lithium-ion
was invented 40 years before it's implementation to mass market

>>106299701 (OP)
for me, it's graphene supercapacitors

>>106300340
>supercapacitors
kek
these are almost useless. they combine the bad of a battery and the bad of a capacitor and very few of the goods
theyll also never get anywhere close to the Wh/kg to even a shitty lead acid battery

>>106299701 (OP)
>rechargeable
fuck ooofff. I want to put in one battery that will last a lifetime

gravitational batteries

every morning I lift the weights and they power my home the entire day

>>106302019
Your entire home can run on 50Wh per day?

>>106302066

fuck off egghead

>>106299701 (OP)
>>106299725
LiFePo is already better for EV and house batteries.

t. EV homebrewer.

>>106302019
that's actually technically trivial and used in some applications. basically you just lift a weight attached to a generator, and the weight pulls back down, turning the generator. this concept has been used before even electricity was a concern

>>106302080
>>106299827
>LiFePo
>*stores only half the energy compares to li ion in your path*

>>106302086
I don't care, I can abuse it like lead acid but have close to liion capacity.

>>106302085
>>106302078
Is this bait? This is like the old magnet boat meme.

>>106302080
The problem with lfp in ev application is to meet the amp reqs of most traction motors, you have to use cylindrical cells, which combining that with the already worse energy density means you get even shitter kg/kwh.
And also doing so somewhat reduces the benefits of lfp in general and greatly increases the whole thermal runaway properties that prismatic lfp kinda got rid of.

And also it literally is unsuitable for half of the first world without constant protection from below 0c operation.

2026 will be the year of piss power.

>>106302196
>lasts 1 discharge and then is disposed of

>>106302149
>I can abuse it like lead acid
QRD?

>>106302196
>Pissmaster strikes again

>>106299701 (OP)
my friend has some chink ev car and it has lithium-fosfate or something like that battery.

>>106302160
no, it's not troll science.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_potential

>>106302282
it doesn't explode, even when stabbed. Way safer than li-ion. It's a mockery that li-ion is still allowed in cars

>>106300196
Li-ion batteries are like 50 years old.

>>106302315
That's nice. What about heat? What about cycles?
I want to build cosplays with lights and servo motors but I wasn't going to try shit with Li-Ion or Li-Poly because those love exploding over the slightest shit.

>>106302282
You can use it in large batteries without worry about it turning into an explosive. A lot of those portable camping battery stations use it and there have been some chinese UPSs with it too

>>106299701 (OP)
sodium ion isn't better. it's just cheaper

>>106299701 (OP)
Its almost like new technology takes years or decades of research to make it even commercially viable.

>>106302315
The lfp cells used in cars do explode when stabbed though

>>106299740
spbp
There's tons of chemistries that tie li-ion to the bed and rape it in every hole - but they cost more.
In the process of poorfags and third-worlders demanding their $150 Chromebooks and $49.99 Androids, they don't realise just how price-sensitive they've made the battery market.

>>106302359
At that point the nickel coating the steel casing is going to be the most expensive component of a classic 18650. EVs are going to drop prices like crazy and us car enthusiasts will have endless cheap cars no one will want anymore.

I love the future.

>>106302315
aren't they all li-ion?

>>106302334
I do not think you need to worry overmuch. Make sure your batteries have the protection circuit. You can put the batteries in a safe and armored spot that can be easily slotted out and just use wires for distribution. That keeps the batteries from being in places where they might get damaged from flexing or whatever and the protection circuit keeps them from flaming up if some of your wires flex and strip and short. Sound electrical design will protect you from most any real dangers.

>>106302085
>>106302066
get on my level you fucking retards

>>106302548
Honestly, your pic looks like something a retarded child would build in the Kerbal Space Program 2 alphas.

>>106302587
Google gravity batteries. They're giant towers that stack concrete blocks. Basically the ideal way to store electricity if size isn't a concern.

>>106302548
Oops wrong picrel

>>106302080
Crazy how the US invented it then proceeded it to patent troll it into oblivion while the chinese just stole it and went wild with it

>>106302619
They're worthless. The best gravity battery is the resovoir of a hydroelectric dam. Storing potential energy via blocks is fucking worthless because you have to put them there. Water falls out of the sky for you to harness gravity already.

>>106302548
>biblically accurate construction site

CATL is already selling Na-ion batteries and improving them gradually like they did with LiFePO4

>>106302359
>it's just cheaper
which makes it better? it's supposedly 10 times cheaper than li-ion. and bit lower capacity. so get like 5 times more, you're still half price for more than 2x capacity. maybe not yet relevant for cars but still a lot of other applications, like home batteries, or local powerplants supplying power on surges etc

>>106300315
What are you scared of? There's just a general purpose heat source (GPHS) inside.

>>106299701 (OP)
>but not a single one succeeds
unfortunately

>>106299701 (OP)
We already have 18650 sodium ion batteries. You can buy them on aliexpress right now.

>>106302715
>storing food is worthless because you have to produce the food

>>106302359
It's very close to being as good. it may even end up storing more energy per unit volume rather than per unit mass, which is usually the limiting factor anyway.

Even if its not, being many times cheaper and not fucking up the environment with lithium mines is worth having batteries that are 85% as good.

The only reason nobody is doing anything with sodium is unironically just the fact that we have all this lithium infrastructure already and shitty business reasons like that.
>EVs are going to drop prices like crazy
Stuff like that.

>>106302744
>>106303068
my point is that Sodium Ion isn't going to bring anything to the next level, EVs will still suck, they just MIGHT be slightly cheaper (more likely companies just won't pass cost savings onto consumers)

>>106299701 (OP)
Why hasn't anything in tech really advanced or gotten better?
It's simple.
Perfection isn't profitable.

>>106299701 (OP)
EV Chuds won. ICisses lost

>>106303143
it brings accessibility, EVs in cold areas. Sodium got some tricks up its sleeve, besides working in extended temperature ranges vs li-ion, it's has way higher charge cycle. that shit doesn't need replacing for the whole life of the car. doesn't lose capacity like li-ion, is cheaper, which makes EVs cheaper. it does have some important implications

>>106302548
I want one of those for my bedroom.
>>106302721
Lmao

>>106302548
would probably make sense with neutronium

>>106299725
Solid state is not a battery chemistry, its a form of electrolyte layer, and is applicable to any and all other battery chemistries of varying anode and cathode

>>106302548
You lift those with manpower everyday?

>>106303143
I would say that making equivalent performance much, much cheaper is certainly a "next level" development.
>more likely companies just won't pass cost savings onto consumers
There will continue to be luxury brands that are expensive for no good reason, and there will also be cheap brands that emerge.

>>106303173
>working in extended temperature ranges
No way, is that true? Why would the performance in cold areas be any different than lithium?
>way higher charge cycle
I've heard this too. Again, I have no idea WHY this would be true, so it could all be hype, but that alone makes them worth it over lithium even if they were more expensive.

>>106303430
>No way, is that true? Why would the performance in cold areas be any different than lithium?
ye, down to -40C or smth, crazy shit. very high charge cycles as well
https://youtu.be/Wf84NJSiAeU

>>106302160
How do you not fucking know this?

> explosive reaction upon contact water
>emits hydrogen gas
Sounds like another totally safe technology. Lets put them everywhere!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=xwyVd8MexAg

We need solid state batteries.

>>106302331
They suck compared to a well shielded RTG.

>>106303458
they don't catch fire like li-ion does. you're spreading FUD because you're probably invested in lithium stocks so you must have meltdowns about sodium
no amount of seething will ever bring your lithium stocks back up since the larger battery maker in the world switched to sodium already with two batteries coming to market for EVs

>>106303458
>Thinking these batteries have a lump of pure alkali just sitting in there.

>>106303488
Lithium blows up just as bad on contact with water too, releasing even more energy per mole than sodium.

>>106303511
sodium batteries don't catch fire like lithium ones do. they're safe in that regard. they may vent but they don't set shit on fire, which is monumentally important

>>106303430
current performance is unusable so it doesn't matter if it's cheaper. this tech will just be used to replace lithium batteries in things that don't need huge capacities (aka high-end smartphones)

>>106303544
>current performance is unusable
what? got some official sources for that claim? regarding CATL sodium batteries that are coming out?
or are you talking out of your ass again?

>>106303528
Look, I'm a pro-sodium fanatic too, but I don't believe that. You have lots of stored energy either way, and causing a short by puncturing is still very, very bad.

>>106303544
>current performance is unusable
It's not, and that's only with our lithium battery techniques being carried over. Very little work has been done to optimize sodium batteries compared to lithium, so literally all it would take to be much better is companies to start caring enough to fund some research.

>>106303573
>>106303586
>>106303606
Impressive. Very Nice.
Now let's see the power density of these devices.

Kill of megacorps if you want new tech, all these old fucked up farts have invested too much in lithium mining to allow competition

>>106299701 (OP)
explain to me why we can't just place a wheel in space to generate infinite electricty?
i am not trolling. i am serious. an object in motion stays in motion unless an equal or greater force applies against it correct? so just place a free floating wheel spinning forever.

>>106303762
how do you extract energy from it without slowing it down?

>>106303815
why would you slow it down? the faster it spins means more electricity.

>>106303726
>>>/reddit/

>>106303826
I thought you said you weren't trolling?

>>106303840
i'm not. i don't fucking understand why we don't do this. we have the international space station with retarded solar panels. why not just have something that free spins attached to it that generates unlimited energy.

>>106302715
air pressure batteries are better. zero risk, air is everywhere and it is cheap.

>>106303860
then again: how do you generate that electricity from the spinning object without slowing it down? what is the mechanism to extract that electricity?

>>106303890
the same way water generators work in dams you tard. instead of water just the natural forever spin of the turbine thing. holy shit this shouldn't be fucking hard.

>>106303762
Capitalism and its profit margins. (((THEY))) won't allow it. Simple as. You want free energy? Abolish capitalism.

>>106303860
energy is stored in the rotational motion
extracting energy means you are depleting that stored reserve
less energy stored in rotation = less rotation

>>106303879
energy density is shit, and cycling efficiency is even worse

>>106303921
so? then don't draw all the energy. you get that sucker spinning insanely fast you won't have to worry about drawing to much then. i am pretty fucking sure the internal space station doesn't need that much power to operate it.

>>106303639
>Look, I'm a pro-sodium fanatic too, but I don't believe that. You have lots of stored energy either way, and causing a short by puncturing is still very, very bad.
listen imbecile, it vents, quite clearly, but it doesn't catch fire for fucks sake. unless you have legitimate proof it does, stop eating shit
https://youtu.be/W1ya_ls1zkA
this is from one year ago, it doesn't catch fire. it vents, no fire. lithium not only catches fire, it fucking sustains the fire, for a long time. sodium batteries do not catch on fire. show some fucking proof if you say they do. stop giving me that "I dunno man I think they are" bullshit, it doesn't work like that. your logical abilities are shit

>>106303564
source is me observing every single electric car going barely the speedlimit on the highway everyday even when it's warm out
until they're able to cruise at 80-90mph like ICE cars without worrying then they're not really usable

>>106302372
they don't
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGQwqWqzkNA

casimir effect cells when?

>>106302196
If your piss has THAT color you have way WAY worse issues than fucking battery technology.

>>106304027
shittiest possible battery. might as well use compressed springs

>>106303953
The idea that sodium batteries never catch on fire seems absurd. I could believe that they are significantly less liable to compared to lithium, but they're not going to be fireproof.

The chemistry is the same. Even if less energy is released per mole, there's a greater quantity of sodium in those batteries than there is in lithium ones, so it mostly evens out.

>>106302937
Hydroelectric is solar power with gravity storage. There is no world in which storing via concrete blocks makes sense. It is too low density. If you connected wind or solar to it and used really good gearing it still wouldn't work. At least if you pumped water into water towers and then reclaimed energy from that via turbines it would be dual use storage for drinking water and some energy reclaimation. But it would be more like regenerative breaking than purely a battery. Hydroelectric is still the only viable "green" energy source and the simplest storage of free solar energy.

>>106303762
You're using the angular momentum of the spinning object to move a coil through a magnetic field. By doing that, you're converting angular momentum (the energy from the moving mass of the object) into electricity. As you do that, you're removing momentum, and it slows down.

>>106303366
It's simple, harness ai energy and enslave all of india to lift the coocoo clock weights everyday

>>106303860
Are you attaching solar sails to this as a solar waterwheel? That is the only way this makes sense

>>106304081
>no proof
the absolute state of FUD spreading retards
I presented one proof, a literal puncture test on a sodium cell and on a lithium one
all sodium related data states they do not catch on fire, yet you somehow know better, some random retard anon

>>106303948
not sure if trolling or genuinely retarded...

>>106304121
wtf is angular momentum? it just rotates. what do you mean by angular? i don't have a phd in this shit. all i know is water and wind spins a thing and electricity is made. why the fuck is that not possible in space that keeps shit in motion?

>>106304167
I'm not FUDding. I still think sodium is superior in almost every way, just that it doesn't magically make battery fires a non-issue.

we need to move past flammable liquid slop batteries to rock solid solid state batteries

why don't we just use rubber band powered cars?

>>106303430
The unit cell is smaller in lithium ion chemistries, and as temperature changes, so does the unit cell volume/size. So ions can continue to be inserted/deinserted at temperatures in sodium-ion chemistries that are not possible in lithium-ion.

>>106305010
idk how hard youre intending to troll here but the real answer is that energy is lost to the generation of a magnetic field (and some tiny bit to the electricity flow generating heat and it compounding since heat makes the wiring more resistive) so even with no air resistance a dynamo would eventually come to a stop.

if you play with using motors as dynamos youll notice they actually generate quite a bit of friction despite the average motor having good tolerances, quality bearings, and plenty of oil. this is basically how very primitive regenerative braking works (not really how modern cars and trains do it "properly" but you still see it on very old trains and very janky DIY e-bikes)

tl;dr electricity come from magnet move, but magnet no like move

>>106302196
>>106304037
my pee looks like this when i hold it in for very long times (i am into Omorashi)

>>106305010
To add to >>106306073's good answer, try spinning a generator when not connected to any load and again with a powerful load. You'll notice that when loaded, the generator is much harder to turn. It's not magic, electric generators just take rotation energy and convert it into electric energy (minus some losses). If someone were to actually build your idea, it would effectively be a giant battery. You'd put in a certain amount of energy to get it spinning insanely fast, then you'd get slightly less energy back as you generate electricity, slowing down the rotation until it stops. This mechanism is actually used in many places here on Earth.

>>106306173
>This mechanism is actually used in many places here on Earth.
no one but retarded techbros think gravity batteries/electric flywheels are useful, and more mundane proven stuff like pumped storage hydroelectricity or steam tanks on trains is comparable only in pure concept of "i have potential mechanical energy i turn into electricity when i need to"

>>106306255
>20mw
so fucking nothing

>>106306275
It's very useful for stabilizing the power grid. Don't be so negative, it's all about choosing the right technology for the job.

>>106306293
american problems require american solutions i guess

>>106304037
it get's more concentrated if you don't drink enugh water tho

>>106307279
Then drink enough water

>>106304027
>casimir effect cells when?
When they get around to searching the Atlantis database to see how ZPM's are made.

>>106307470
casimir effect doesn't give you energy out of nothing, nor out of the "zero point field". just like you cannot get energy out of two magnets attracting eachother

>Literally Na-palm
I'll stick with Pb or LiFePo.

>>106303860
if you have a wheel spinning in space, yes it will keep spinning for an extremely long time... if you leave it alone. if you try to extract energy from it, it will slow down.
like the same rules apply in space as it does on earth, if it takes say 100W to spin this wheel up, if you later extract 100W from it, it will come to a stop, because it only had 100W of potential energy in that spin to begin with. if it worked like how you were thinking, we'd put wheels in vacuum chambers suspended with magnets to create free energy devices, since the only difference between a spinning wheel in space and on earth is that on earth you have friction to worry about.
... speaking of there have been people making energy storage out of large, fast-spinning wheels suspended with magnets, it's just again, it's not 'free', you only get out what you put into it

>>106307684
zooomzoooooom

>>106306374
Phase correction at grid scale is something every non-trivial AC system deals with. It's less of a problem in burgerland because higher frequency. Europoors have it so bad they need to pass the burden on to residential users.

>>106302196
> no poo poo
> it's literally made of pee
based?

>>106304081
I believe the main reason is the electrolyte. Any battery with a lot of energy stored is going to be capable of dumping a lot of it quickly, which generates a lot of heat (this occurs with practically any chemistry if you cause an internal short, gets very hot). In Li-Ion batteries this quickly results in runaway heating, bursting the batteries and exposing the electrolyte to air. A lot of Li-Ion batteries will start glowing red-hot when the internals are exposed to air, which provides an ignition source for the flammable electrolyte. Once it’s going it’s self sustaining until the batteries is entirely consumed.

I imagine Sodium Ion batteries are sufficiently different to avoid the self-ignition aspect, so they still dump a lot of gases and heat into the air, but those gasses either aren’t flammable, or have no ignition source, which drastically reduces the risk.

since batteries are huge and expensive, why don't we just skip them an go directly to miniaturized nuclear reactors?
> nuclear powered cars will NEVER need to refuel or recharge. The range is in the order of multiple of millions of miles. Every other component will break before the reactor stops working.
> car is too old? Remove the reactor and use it to power a house
Batteries should only be used for small stuff like laptops, smartphones and smart watches. Bigger stuff should be all nuclear.

>>106309509
>buy nuclear car
>expressly intend to crash it into something in a terrorist incident

>can't break 3mph because my car weighs 40 tons from all the shielding and fissile material

>>106309526
>can't break 3mph because my car weighs 40 tons from all the shielding and fissile material
nigga, just go to a car shop and remove all the shielding.

>>106302196
those work with other liquids as well, but they're a toy as they can only be charged "up to 5 times"

>>106303762
>generate infinite electricty?
You can treat this as axiomatically impossible and any system which seems like it's able to can't exist (via proof by contradiction.)

>>106302315
>>106302338
Well I was more talking about how they handle cold weather and heavy use better but yeah from what I understand they also don't develop internal shorts as often either.

>>106302644
based beaver enjoyer
[spoiler]the description for this building notes that it only works because they "invented their own laws of physics" and even then it's terribly inefficient and basically is only worth it to smooth out inconsistent generation on wind/wood fired turbine[/spoiler]

>>106302937
food literally grows on trees dude

>>106299806
>2 more weeks

The problem with batteries that hold more charge is they make a bigger fire if they explode. Like having a grenade in your pocket.

>>106300063
>the electrolyte is still a lithium ion lol
Yeah and nuclear power still boils down to steam but we've come a long way

>>106302086
I can see why that would be an issue for EVs but for home power systems, the space difference isn't much of an issue.

Enjoy your fire, EVcucks

>>106310063
I know exactly where that fire was. lol

Off the 55fwy in Orange County, CA.

>>106310104
>CA
:/

>>106310063
Super convenient. Just allow the Tesla burn itself to a crisp. Then hose the ash pile into the median. No towing or cleanup needed.

>>106302086
>in your path
Your brain is rotten.

>>106307684
Technically, the ZPMs are misnomers, as they draw energy from a subspace pocket – basically from another universe.

>>106309509
And you also get that nice tan without ever having to go into the sun!