Thread 106335208

Coming from Java, about to start learning C++. All of my colleagues are telling me to skip learning C++ and just learn Rust instead as it is the future and the syntax is much cleaner and readable. Should I skip C++ and just start learning Rust instead? Are there any credible reasons not to switch to Rust instead and ditch C++?

>>106335208 (OP)
Just learn both?

>>106335208 (OP)
Bloated file size

>>106335208 (OP)
>>106335251
Seriously why do people treat programming languages like countries? You don't need to immigrate from Java to Rust you can just know both.

>>106335208 (OP)
One good reason: Teh Rust "Community."

>>106335208 (OP)
Why are you learning C++/Rust?
If you want job stability, learn C++, or just stick to Java
If you want comfy hobbyist systems programming, use Rust.
If you have time, learn both.

>>106335208 (OP)
>>106335251
Fpbp. You should know C++ but if you wanna learn Rust learn it too.
>>106335444
I suspect the average CS student today doesn't have enough brainpower to remember all that syntax.

>>106335208 (OP)
It's heavily shilled on /g/.
That alone is a huge red flag.

>>106335208 (OP)
>One Good Reason
Employment

>>106335208 (OP)
Don't learn C, C++, Java, Perl, or shell. Just only learn Rust, OK? It's all you need, sahib.

>>106335208 (OP)
if you feel like learning it, do it. If you don't feel like learning it, don't do it. Rust won't turn you into a better programmer. C++ won't turn you into a worst programmer. If you want to be a better programmer go learn Algorithms, solve problems, learn math, develop reasoning skills, and do it in whatever language you know best, doesn't matter if it's C, Rust, Go, Java, Lisp, Haskell or Python, as long as it's Turing complete.

>>106336778
What kind of employer would care about its employee's programming skills?
It's just a tertiary skill you can always learn on the fly.

Is Java related to coffee? I always thouht it was some old word FOR coffee!
So, i'm making myself an epic cuppa before I dive back into Java to make that mincraft mod. thank you for your interest.
And yeah, you get comfy from it

>>106335208 (OP)
learn C (important first step).
take a look at C++, but don't let it drag you in and become an intellectuality sunk cost (can happen easily).
then, and only then, learn rust. and now you know why it exists (unlike 99%+ /g/eets).

>>106335208 (OP)
>the syntax is much cleaner and readable
if you have brain damage from HRT consumption maybe

>>106335208 (OP)
try both and stick with whichever you like

>>106335208 (OP)
>Are there any credible reasons not to switch to Rust instead and ditch C++?
Packages. Adding dependencies is really easy, a bit simpler than Maven and Gradle and a lot more easier than C++'s CMake/Meson/Makefile (unless you forget about other platforms).
>Should I skip C++ and just start learning Rust instead?
You shouldn't skip it. You will understand the problems Rust solves a lot better if you learn modern C++, i.e. at least C++11.

No reason anon, Rust is a better choice. If you really want a reason: there's more C++ code in the world than Rust code.

>>106339056
>Learn rust because I'm an npm/maven/pip webshitter who cant go a single project without busting out the npm install is-odd

>>106335208 (OP)
>Learn rust because an eceleb and a washed up dev who hasnt written anything new since the 90s asserted C++ is deprecated

The absolute state

>>106335251
Because learning both well enough to get a job takes a lot of time?

>>106335208 (OP)
LMAO. No, Rust is not the future.

>>106341581
>LMAO. No, Rust is not the future.

Rust IS the future and this chart proves it.

>>106339128
Rust is a Systems Language made for web devs. Web devs are used to bloated packages, slow compile times, constantly learning new frameworks, and so on. But they're happy that the compiler tells them what the error is and runs fast, so it's a massive leap in technology for them. The borrow checker is easier to learn if you don't know how memory management works and just do whatever the compiler says.

Evidence for this is that WASM is the number 1 Rust priority. There is even an electron replacement made in Rust called Tauri.

>>106344145
TRVKE

>>106335208 (OP)
for the sake of argument I'm gonna assume you're not about to abandon Java altogether and you'll keep working on enterprise software
C/C++ is useful with JNI, rust isn't.

>>106335208 (OP)
Rust gives you almost no benefits over Java

>>106344145
>Rust is a Systems Language made for web devs.
which is precisely why it shouldn't exist
webfags are script kiddies, they shouldn't be allowed near actual software
the prevalence of electron apps and node.js prove me right

>>106335208 (OP)
Just like c++ it has too much friction.
The most important metric that you should consider when choosing a language is not "safety" nor performance, look for ergonomic

>>106335208 (OP)
fish (the shell) switched from C++ to Rust recently
I see plenty of “we rewrote our thing in Go” and “that thing we rewrote in Go we rewrote in Rust” but I never see anything getting rewritten in C++
Ladybird (the browser) is switching from C++ to Swift 6 because Andreas Kling says Rusteaceans are too toxic
Stroustrup is sounding the alarm saying C++ is going to get buried by Rust if C++ doesn’t get Rust’s safety features
I’m a fan of C++ but it’s not getting many/any greenfield projects written in it

>>106335444
Time spent learning one takes away from getting good at the other
I assume OP wants to have a social life and a wife and kids one day
>>106344429
I see plenty of smallish command-line utilities written in Rust that would be way worse with the JVM’s 500ms startup time
t. tried to write a simple thing in Clojure once

rust is a cia op, once everything is written in rust, they'll have backdoors into every software written in it

>>106344670
Learning the syntax of a programming language takes an hour. Learning fundamentals takes a day.

>>106341298
>Because learning both well enough to get a job
If you're good enough to get a high paying job for either you could get just as good with the other in like 6 months maybe less. It's not like learning Italian vs Chines.

>>106335208 (OP)
>learn Rust instead as it is the future
Bad argument.

Learning the most trendy/future-proof technology is a bad career choice. Niche technologies guarantee stable employment even if they are not the best. Ask cobol and delphi developers

>>106338668
That's ridiculous. We don't start teaching people language with cuneiform and work our way up to english so they "know why it exists." Life's too short to worry about that low IQ nonsense. You have to hit the ground running with everything or your brain will decay before you ever do anything meaningful.
Not defending rust trannies, just attacking your idea in general.

>>106335208 (OP)
C++ alphas, how do we cope?

>>106346060
your comment is a perfect example of why all analogies are retarded to an extent, no exceptions.

>>106335208 (OP)
The borrow checker has to be subverted to build anything serious. Rustfags live in a hypothetical universe where everything is clean and can be put into its box. In reality shared mutable state is almost always unavoidable for any program that isn't another shitty webapp and Rust is easily the worst language you can choose where shared mutable state is a thing. Also RAII, which Rustfags love and shill as idiomatic, will make your a worse programmer. Take the condom off and manage the memory yourself. You will surprise yourself how quickly you will improve and how well you are able to manage your own allocations (hint - arenas) and once you have that kind of control you will never find shit like modern C++ or Rust an acceptable language to use again.

>>106346060
The rust compiler assumes you understand how things work at the c/c++ level. It basically has macros that automate """safe""" practices you're supposed to do in C. So yes, his argument is valid here.

>>106346325
Only inexperienced programmers feel like they have to subvert borrow checker in order to get what they need.
Experienced programmers utilize borrow checker to express all kinds of invariants within the type system itself.

Git gud

>>106346060
Learning C++ before Rust is indeed retarded, but priori C experience can be greatly beneficial to you.
Rust wastes no time explaining systems programming concepts to you. You are expected to understand how pointers work, how memory management works, what is undefined behavior.
Sure, you can write something simple without that, but eventually, you will have to do FFI or something low level and you will struggle greatly to write sound, unsafe code.

>>106345995
Maybe C. Getting good at Rust or C++ takes hundreds of hours realistically.

>>106343119
>Java more homosexual and less retarded than Go.
Javafags, we win again!

>>106346548
>Functional fag deluding xirself into thinking type masturbation is getting stuff done.

>>106335208 (OP)
There are way way more jobs in c++ than rust. That will likely always be true

>>106335208 (OP)
https://youtu.be/EGLoKbBn-VI?si=UG6oIfMxX57CkWFJ
Would highly recommend this talk by Eskil steenberg and some of the content by Casey muratori. Carmack also advocates "C style C++". Basically just stick to C man and whatever langauge you do end up choosing just use the simplest parts of it.

>>106347405
>Casey muratori
Inb4 seething Rust and Java fags start autistically screeching at you.

it only takes a week to get the feel of a language. just try both as well as C, zig and beef. see what you enjoy and get on with life. stop asking for an opinion and get your shit together.

>>106346914
Whenever it is types, contracts or even formal proofs, static analysis is how you make sure things work as expected.

>>106346592
No it really doesn't. This is a skill issue on your part.

>>106347879
Maybe you are a genius, or maybe the brainless here are me and everyone else who considers both languages to be very difficult to master.
Who knows, OP will have to figure it out by himself...

>>106347663
How about you know, not being completely incompetent at what you do?

>>106347535
It makes no sense to pick memelangs like zig or beef unless you only plan to make self contained fizzbuzz with them. Especially if you don't know any other, practically useful language.

As soon as you will want to do something non trivial that requires a library, zig and beef won't suffice.

>>106347971
>just don't make mistakes
Tell that to DARPA. Sounds like it will save them trillions of dollars.

>>106335208 (OP)
>coming from java
it doesn't matter cos you're fucked either way

>>106344646
>Ladybird (the browser) is switching from C++ to Swift 6 because Andreas Kling says Rusteaceans are too toxic
Have there been any development in Swift in the Ladybird Github repository? As far as I can tell, the development is still just C++, despite Swift 6 being released long ago.
They also cite technical reasons instead of social reasons for not choosing Rust:
https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/issues/5017
>I could not disagree with this statement more. Rust interoperability with C++ is extern "C" with void*. Swift C++ interop is quite more complex and integrated into the compiler frontend, and can be fully typechecked by the swift compiler. The glue is generated from the Swift AST / clang AST directly.

>>106348001
>cnile makes a claim about Rust
>it's full of obvious lies
Why is this always a thing?

>>106347973
that's irrelevant in this exercise, OP isn't building anything, just learning new languagesrn

>>106348001
I'm a rustacean* and i don't want ladybird to use rust. technical diversity is good. and we already have servo, which is moving forward at a snail speed, but it is moving forward.
on the C++ FFI question, there is the irony that the situation from rust's side improved, in part, because of the push for chromium to oxidize. lol.
https://github.com/google/autocxx
*ean as an identity is not a thing, but let's play along

>>106348080
The usecase of technology is very relevant in context of choosing the right one. No one learns a tool in a vacuum. That's why it is important to consider what he will use it for. Learning niche or esoteric language can be fun for recreational programming, but if you want to actually use it together with other technologies(which is 99% of programming) you have to care about compatibility.
For example I absolutely love BQN, but I would never recommend it to someone who just want to learn programming because the only thing he will be able to do with it is solve advent of code problems.

Why are most Rust programmers homosexual?

>>106346016
Both languages are used for totally different purposes?

>>106344646
>>106348036
Was this written by the same rustacean?

>>106348432
No.

God I hate the rustacean term. Rustafarian just rolls of the tongue so much better, but nooo, muh cultural appropriation hurr durr

>>106348122
>https://github.com/google/autocxx
Last update: 5 months ago.

>I'm a rustacean* and i don't want ladybird to use rust. technical diversity is good.
>*ean as an identity is not a thing, but let's play along
Rust cultists fit the bill, as you undoubtedly must be aware, rustacean.
Or have you forgotten what the Rust community in general did with the Linux kernel, or its reactions towards Microsoft rewriting tsc from Typescript to Go?
https://archive.ph/uLiWX
https://archive.ph/rESxe
https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292
https://github.com/microsoft/typescript-go/discussions/411#discussioncomment-12464988

>>106348480
Go away, rustacean.

>>106348507
NTA, rustacean just means Rust programmer. It's no different from calling yourself C++ programmer, or any of the other gay new terms like pythonista

>>106348518
Sure you aren't. Do you acknowledge the cult-like behavior of a large proportion of the Rust community, complete with social media brigading and making lists? >>106348507

>>106348507
>Or have you forgotten what the Rust community in general did with the Linux kernel,
There was only one drama in Linux kernel and both the social media tranny and cnile saboteur left the project after Linus told them to fuck off.
The fault was 100% on Linus side. He should have stepped in first and clarified the policy instead of letting manchildren get into fights over stupid things.

>or its reactions towards Microsoft rewriting tsc from Typescript to Go?
Literally nothing burger.

>>106348532
>Sure you aren't.
What?

>>106348547
>>106348556
Downplaying and lying? Another Rust cultist, I see.

Another schizo. C surely does attract many of them...

>>106344439
Webshitting in unironically the best way to do multiplatform desktop GUI applications by a huge margin. While html and css are quite niggerlicious they're still somehow far from the niggerliciousness of every single other way to build UIs out there. Especially if you don't have to support a gazillion different browsers. And you get instant cross platform compatibility with pretty much every single thing you'd ever wish to support.

>>106335208 (OP)
That is a meme language, and you ain't gonna get a job if you don't know several languages. I started with Logo, BASIC, Pascal, Delphi's Object Pascal and work with C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript, even PHP and Python.
If you believe a legacy corporate code base is gonna be rewritten in your favorite language you are beyond help.

>>106348606
With immediate mode gui you can get sane UI easily for any target(egui even supports web) without the need for electron. It just isn't going to look native or even pretty unfortunately.

>>106348584
>C
Strange way to spell Rust.

Jeremy Bicha.
>SEX BAT BY JUVEN/VCTM UNDER 12; F.S. 794.011(2) (PRINCIPAL - 2 COUNTS)
Pedophile.
Rust developer.
PPA for Rust.
https://launchpad.net/~jbicha/+archive/ubuntu/rust

Mental health, pronouns and alter egos are at the very least trends in Rust. Also as the community Rust Discord server goes.

Hector Martin.
Insisting that Asahi Lina is not his alter ego.

https://aturon.github.io/tech/2019/06/25/back-in-the-saddle/

https://fasterthanli.me/articles/state-of-the-fasterthanlime-2024
https://fasterthanli.me/articles/that-health-is-mental

>>106346056
The cobol devs are getting paid and have a steady job not because they know cobol but because they've been working on the same mission critical system for the last 25 years and have irreplaceable and undocumentable knowledge of how the system works. But the second that cobol system is replaced they're out of a job. And good luck finding a new cobol job.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I just searched Jeremy Bicha on the archives to see how many times has this schizo posted the very same post and:
https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/Jeremy%20Bicha/

LMAO. This schizo is literally Mikeeusa, the same schizo who keeps posting these sim city looking screenshots with Rei, the same one who has been banned from so many various forums, communities and mailing lists for posting his schizo rambling and accusing random people.

You can't make this shit up. LMAO

>>106348584
DebateClubWebSearch doesn't code. and the majority of (serious) rust developers are, or were, C developers.
"lang fights" are the pastime of nocoders. rare dramas that pop up in real projects are not really about languages, but about the worthiness of introducing disrupting big changes , irrespective of the underlying details. although it can't be denied that there is a lot of social retardation around development communities.

>>106348714
I know. I used to be C/C++ developer in past too.
I just find it funny how it is always C and sometimes Zig or HTMX that attracts such deranged posters.

>>106348711
>Mikeeusa
I don't know who that is.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeremyBicha
>I am a United States Navy Veteran and spent 2007-2010 living in Bahrain. I currently live in Florida. I joined Canonical in 2022 but my Ubuntu story started much earlier.

https://wng.org/articles/the-high-cost-of-negligence-1617309216
>Florida prosecutors weren’t forgetting: The U.S. Navy discharged Jeremy, and when he reached U.S. soil, authorities arrested him. He eventually pleaded no contest to two counts of sexual battery on a child under 12 while he was under 18. His defense attorney asked for less than a year in the county jail. The prosecutor asked for 15 years in state prison.

>>106348714
>>106348728
Nice try, Rust evangelists. The Rust Foundation is infamous for spending a large proportion of its donations on evangelism, it boldly admits as such on its website.
>>106348638
>>106348733

>>106348622
Companies aren’t going to make their project in rust because it’s hard to hire developers or move over other people to that project. It takes 6 months to learn rust at a newbie level. By that time your team can learn Go and have the project delivered much quicker. Not only is rust longer to learn but development time is much longer than higher level languages, development time is hurt even more so by Rust not having C style syntax (almost all popular languages have C style syntax).

Basically, the job market isn’t good enough to warrant learning rust. Rust jobs aren’t hiring junior devs, they want experienced devs so if you’re a junior dev there’s no point learning rust. Maybe this will change in 5 years.

>>106348935
It's true that market for rust jobs isn't that big, but pretty much all large tech companies seem to use Rust for something. Learning Rust is not that much difficult than learning modern C++

>>106348983
If you can get in big tech then you’re probably better than the average developer can learn rust maybe in 3 months. My post was more from the point of view of Fortune 500 companies, not big tech or startups. Most developers are average and from a company standpoint switching over a legacy project written in C/C++/Java to Rust is not worth it vs Go or refactoring.

>>106349056
>If you can get in big tech then you’re probably better than the average developer can learn rust maybe in 3 months.

>>106349089
I missed a comma. If you’re in big tech then you’re better than the average developer, you can learn rust quicker.

For the average crud developer learning rust is going to fucking suck.

>>106349056
>>106349112
>can learn rust maybe in 3 months.
>you can learn rust quicker.
As long as the code does not involve unsafe, and the Rust crate dependencies will not have to be debugged for UB and unsafe.
And even then, it depends on what application domain, what level of proficiency, Rust features, etc. Though outside unsafe, C++ is in a similar ballpark, with more gotchas and historical baggage (though Rust is also accumulating historical baggage, despite Rust editions).

>>106349231
>C++
Also missing pattern matching, hopefully it will get it in C++29.

>>106349437
I think it will.