Thread 106405447

>2025
>still shit

>2025
>just works on my machine

>>106405447 (OP)
It is about to get much worse here shortly, too.

>>106405487
This is worse than when systemd infested everything

The only good thing about it is being able to use pinch zoom and swipe navigation in web browsers on a laptop. Other than that, Xorg just had fewer issues - apart from screen tearing issues

>>106405511
I immediately switched to Devuan when that dropped. I can count on one hand the weeks I have had it installed. I have never had wayland installed, and never will.

>>106406082
based

>>106405447 (OP)
wayland is fine, systemd is fine.

1. way less legacy features that 90% people don't need.
2. Built in compositing that doesn't require some bolted on solution.
3. HiDpi and monitor scaling built out of the box.
4. Way more secure

>>106406136
We'll see how long I can survive because of that choice. I am on MX Linux 23.6 and the maintainers have said they will switch to wayland next release. I still have some outs, though. Artix, Devuan with self compiled xlibre, Gentoo; it is going to be a lot of work on my end to get what I want.
Are you currently free of systemd & wayland?

>>106406065
>pinch zoom
>swipe navigation
Tablet tier bullshit

>>106406217
Ever considered BSD?

>>106406416
Oh yeah, both NetBSD & FreeBSD, but have yet be able to make them work on any hardware I have had. I even tried a GhostBSD live usb, but no dice. I am happy with GNU+Linux for now, even though I trust it as much as Windows.

I think this still blows up on multi-window browsers

>>install sway after dwm
>>wayland just feels faster
>>try to play source games. Nvm fuck his
>>rememeber that dwm is the shit

>>106406065
>apart from screen tearing issues
I think you can use tearfree as a xrandr argument to handle that.

>>106406772
You can, it's been a non-issue for years.

>>106405447 (OP)
it works
t. Hyprland user

>>106405447 (OP)
PIBKAC

only hyprland is good, that's how trash the protocol is. anything else, use x.

Two more years

The only issue I've had with wayland is it sometimes messes with screenshots. Not sure if that's a security feature or bug.

>>106405447 (OP)
I like it for window management: it's predictable compared to x11 where windows do whatever the fuck they want because "developers know better"

It's as old as Xorg was when Wayland started.

I think the source of many issues wayland has are because they wanted a kind of environment where the community will settle on certain standards on their own and those standards will be adopted into the core spec. The problem is that they've alienated anyone willing to do that.

>>106406768
sway is wayland only
dwm is X11 only

>>106405447 (OP)
Honestly, besides Sway requiring you to modify the .desktop to add the --supported-gpu flag, it's really pleasant. X11 never was able to look fully right to me. Always had small visual hiccups even with Picom + Vsync. I'm cautious about Wayland and it requires a hacky solution for screen sharing, but it's compositing is genuinely better.

>>106407920
First two things I tried under hyprland were Obsidian and Libreoffice. Shit show with both.

>>106410995
>The problem is that they've alienated anyone willing to do that.
How did they alienate everyone?

>>106411530
Being toxic and making it about politics.

>>106411574
Are xorg and wayland not the same non-profit?

>>106411613
They are but they want to kill Xorg in favor of wayland. People who still want to use Xorg are seen as far right chuds.

how is xlibre?

How did a chud project like hyprland end up in the wayland camp?

>>106411693
looks good, they finally replaced the manifesto readme with a clear description of the project and what makes it superior to Xorg. Last commit 1 hour ago.

>>106411754
It was before Xlibre when Wayland still seemed like an open and developing standard. It was only after some drama that hyprland was seen as chuddy and the hyprland dev basically had to fork Wayland to keep the project going.

>>106411646
It's unfortunate but yes. The truth is, there are certain desktop features that require a big amount of engineering and manpower to implement, hence why they are only implemented on a few Wayland compositors. HDR and remote desktop (like XRDP, not screen sharing!) are the two main examples. HDR is currently only implemented by KDE, GNOME, and Hyprland. COSMIC is working on it. Remote desktop is only implemented by GNOME (KDE is working on it).

On X, the X server was a common shared base that everyone worked on and improved. It's why every DE/WM supported remote desktop using XRDP. If, say, HDR was added to that, every DE/WM would get it for free.

Wayland is a huge fracture of the ecosystem, because instead of a shared base, everyone now has to compete to reimplement the same thing. The benefit is it allows for higher performance and removes many broken assumptions X11 had (e.g. tiling window managers had to hack around windows being able to set their size, whereas Wayland puts the window size completely in compositor control). But it is sad that there's not a shared base everyone improves anymore. The closest thing to it is Smithay, but that's a library and not a compositor itself.

The correct thing for DE's to do is to use Wayland protocols implemented by many compositors instead of reinventing the wheel and making their own (picrel). This is the approach XFCE and LXQt are taking to Wayland support -- you can run them on top of most Wayland compositors (Hyprland, Niri, Kwin) and they integrate with them using protocols.

>>106411823
So Wayland needs a systemd but for compositors?

>>106411894
Not really a systemd, where there is ONE thing everyone runs, but rather a few for specific use cases.

E.g. for traditional floating desktops, everyone should converge either on Kwin or Mutter, functionally there's no difference between them. They even implement workspaces the same (terrible) way.

For tiling, everyone should converge on Hyprland and Niri. They have different paradigms so they should both exist (unless one gets the other's functionality implemented as a "mode"), but both are fundamentally based on the compositor controlling the window size in a set layout instead of it being freeform.

Then more compositors for other use cases. One for mobile, one for automotive, one for VR, you get the point.

In this ideal world, all of them would be based on the same library (Smithay or wlroots, but wlroots has a lot of catching up to do) so there's one common base everyone improves, and then each compositor only contains the code that differentiates it from everything else.

Then each DE (GNOME and KDE mostly, LXQt and XFCE have already done this) removes compositor-specific code and only use well-defined, compositor-agnostic protocols e.g. for monitor configuration. This would then mean you can run full GNOME on top of Kwin, KDE on top of Mutter, or either on top of Hyprland/Niri to get tiling. This would bring us back to the state of things on X.

This is never happening though. With how slow Wayland protocols are releasing and adopting, every compositor has had to hack its way around it by making their own internal protocols. For this convergence to happen, upstream Wayland would need to heavily get its shit together and stop bikeshedding every minute detail of every protocol due to their broken release process (not allowing updates once a protocol is stable, no protocol versioning other than staging and stable).

>>106405463
fpbp
OP is faggot trying to start a flamewar.

>Use wayland on nvidia
>Firefox wayland has shitty scaling issues
>Graphical artifacts here and there
>Adaptive sync fucks with my display constantly so it turns off when doing things like going from fullscreen to window and such, I have to lower the refresh rate to avoid it
>Notice framedrops where they shouldn't be
>Can't switch to GNOME wayland because HDR does not work there
>Use wayland on AMD
>Everything just fucking works
I'm really annoyed by this fact

>>106411823
I agree, there should be something new, but wayland isn't it. Politics aside, this is why Xlibre was created. The developer wanted to fix the problems with Xorg, but it would require a lot of refactoring and a new release that FDO didn't want to facilitate.
Linux desktop developers don't seem to understand the importance of a stable platform target. They only care as long as it "works on their machine". Application developers expect the system to work a certain way, if every desktop behaves slightly different it can never be stable.

>>106406217
Would definitely recommend Artix. It's been smooth sailing for about 7 years for me now. Wayland is out of the question for me as I get too much enjoyment out of using EXWM.

>>106412192
Yeah, XLibre is a noble effort.
The dev not knowing that 2^16 is XOR and not power is concerning, though.
But it doesn't really matter. All he had to do, was start the momentum on X again. Because for a long time everyone said "X is dead" but no one stepped up to maintain it. Now he did and there's a flurry of new activity from many contributors, and implementing new protocols, e.g. the "security" isolation of Wayland everyone keeps hyping up (despite how in most compositors it's possible to just use Wayland protocols directly instead of screen capture API, to bypass permissions entirely).

>Linux desktop developers don't seem to understand the importance of a stable platform target
And this is why Linux desktop will simply never break into the enterprise workstation space. It has limited uses for an "immutable OS image" like digital signage where it only does one thing. But the moment it has to do something mission critical (such as controlling production lines), it's always a Windows workstation running custom-made software. Because by developing their custom software for Windows, they can be confident it will work for a long time.

Latest Windows 11 still runs 32-bit software from Windows 95 without needing recompilation, despite Windows 11 and Windows 95 having completely different kernels and software stacks. The Linux desktop will never be able to do this because it's a different philosophy -- instead of keeping compatibility, they move forwards and require everything to adapt. This is possible because the Linux desktop software stack is open source and can be easily patched and recompiled. While I agree source code is always better than no source code, the same goes for binary compatibility, and it's critical that the Linux desktop has it if it ever hopes to be successful. One of my favorite Torvalds quotes:
>"Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! [...] WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE!"
Exists for a reason. I just wish it applied to more than the kernel.

HDR. That's all I want really out of X11. I give negative fucks about anyone telling me HDR is a meme or that I don't need it.

>>106412644
>telling me HDR is a meme or that I don't need it.
Well, considering how many times you have heard it and the shear number of people who know that this is true, it is no surprise you don't give a fuck about it.
Let me guess, you _need_ it for gaymes?

>>106412644
>>106412797
NTA but movies and cinema, TV, that's the main usecase for HDR. Gaming too but it's secondary.
If you have a HDR display (a real one with 1200+ nits, not a "gaming" one that has 600 nits lmfao), go torrent Interstellar (2014) (the 4K HDR bluray version, 35.95 GB) or another movie mastered for HDR, then load up your favorite HDR-capable media player and try toggling on and off HDR in bright and dark scenes.
By far the best example is 02:15:03, with HDR the brightness and colors made me audibly say "holy shit" the first time I watched it in HDR, and SDR looks like washed mud in comparison.
>inb4 just use smart TV
Fuck that shit. A real computer with Kodi is lightyears ahead of any sluggish smart TV software junk.

>>106412974
>NTA but movies and cinema, TV, that's the main usecase for HDR.
So fictional bullshit, figures.

>>106413278
>So fictional bullshit, figures.
you got a problem with a man winding down?

>>106410396
Let me guess, you used i3 and didn't like the manual tiling.

>>106413296
No, just with a man wasting life on lies instead of winding down with something substantial, tangible, and beneficial to their life. I am certainly not telling you how to live, just that the choice you have made is a dumb one. Learn, grow, improve, and thrive not sit, stare, drool, and pretend imagination is alive.

>>106413278
>>106413686
That's your opinion and it's completely normal for people to prefer different forms of entertainment, or none at all if they want to only be productive in life.
People like different things, anon. I was just pointing out how, for the thing I like, HDR offers a very substantial improvement, and makes me enjoy the thing considerably more. That is all.
And also it doesn't have to be fiction. Personal photos and videos, nature documentaries, digital art, live broadcasts, really any form of photo or video benefits greately from HDR. One of my hobbies is photography, and photos I have of sunsets and sunrises look stunning in HDR. No need to be aggressive over a technology that increases bit depth of photo and video content.

>>106411783
Let's not pretend Vaxry doesn't still suck Wayland off on the daily. When he's not begging for a wife at least.
>and the hyprland dev basically had to fork Wayland
wlroots is not Wayland, nor would he have been prohibited from using it. He just wouldn't have been able to contribute to it any longer, shit takes months to be implemented there anyways.
tl;dr He was never going to touch Xorg ever again anyways.

>>106413278
We understand you do not have a life, you don't need to be so proud of it.

>>106413686
>No, just with a man wasting life on lies instead of winding down with something substantial, tangible, and beneficial to their life.
Like what, sitting here defending a fucking display server?

>>106414406
kek

>>106414342
>He just wouldn't have been able to contribute to it any longer,
Wouldn't that be an issue if hyprland needed something implemented at that level?

>>106414512
Such is the Wayland way.

>>106414512
That's why he switched to aquamarine

>>106413278
Dumb retard, the "you don't need that" Wayland attitude isn't any better when you do it.

>>106414668
qt won't ever drop x11. It supports a bunch of random obscure platforms.

>>106412644
We would have had HDR on x11 long ago when nvidia proposed the HDR extension. But people didn't show much interest in it since they had decided that "wayland is the future". The linux desktop is controlled by IBM (Red hat).

>>106414342
>Let's not pretend Vaxry doesn't still suck Wayland off on the daily
I'm not, he's just a product of a different time. Like racist boomers that think voting republican will save the white race.
>wlroots is not Wayland, nor would he have been prohibited from using it
That's why I said basically, I assumed I was talking to a layman.
Vaxry was the catalyst. Before the incident the Redhat question wasn't really a thing. The debate between Wayland and Xorg was purely technical.
>>106414668
Most apps probably wont even upgrade from GTK3.

>>106411823
Although that has contributed to the fragmentation on wayland, that's not the main reason. The main reason is the policy of wayland. Which is policy over mechanism while x11 is mechanism over policy. On x11 the idea is to implmement simple basic blocks that are widely usable for anything developers and users want to do, while on wayland the power is given to the proprietor (the wayland compositor dev), nobody else; and the proprietor (compositor dev) decides how much power devs and users have on their particular platform. Gnome wayland decided to go to the route that they only want to allow gnome-style applications.
>The benefit is it allows for higher performance
This is a common myth that people repeat, but it's not true. There is nothing in wayland design or wayland compositor designs that allow it to perform better than x11 nor xorg server nor x11 compositors. And in practice it doesn't perform better either (inb4 somebody responds with a moronix benchmark which is easy to disprove)

Linux newfag here, whats wrong with wayland? aparantly im using it

>>106414836
Yep. And that's the sad reality. They didn't want two of what could be seen as the "same technology" existing so they killed off a perfectly good project.

>>106414880
That's what I said above, just phrased slightly differently. X was the shared base everyone worked to improve, while in Wayland every compositor is competing with and reimplements code from every other compositor.
>There is nothing in wayland design or wayland compositor designs that allow it to perform better than x11
This is just silly though. With X11 every app has to go through the X server before going to the compositor, with Wayland it goes through the compositor. It removes an extra layer of indirection, which was only really there for remote clients (i.e. ssh -X). In practice it's not much faster since modern hardware is fast.

>>106415176
Nothing. The problem is the main driving force of the Linux desktop (Red Hat) killed off the thing that came before it (X) before Wayland was fully ready. Some would argue it's still not ready now, but for 99% of people it's more than enough and they'll never notice a difference.