Thread 106477007

/g/bros is this true?

maybe but for some reason everyone thinks programming is impossibly hard and tries to teach programmers to do new things while refusing to learn programming

>>106477029
>lust provoking image????
>>106477007 (OP)
i think yes but only by a small measure bc its all about creativity anyways
BUT one could make a pretty slideshow based on a classical work and still get a moderate success

>>106477007 (OP)
yes I think so
programming can be brute forced. shit code can still be functionally correct. it is more easily done than "soulful" art. the problem is to make sure you don't go too far and stop yourself before the code grows too large

toby fox doesnt know how to code and he made a multi million seller twice.

>>106477007 (OP)
AI fucks this equation all up.

>>106477007 (OP)
no, look at factorio or rimworld

>>106477062
He knows "enough", but from what I've heard the codebase is a giant plate of spaghetti.

>>106477007 (OP)
Both of them are just going to use AI.

>>106477105
good morning sir

>>106477007 (OP)
Yes.

A game needs a story, an art style, a soundtrack and a game system (ruleset), software glues them together.
Someone who's used to playing games and understands what makes them engaging or fun will have a better chance than someone who doesn't understand games, this is the same as any other market.

However a software dev can go work at a bank, artists can't.

>>106477007 (OP)
minecraft is proof programmers (high iq) > artists (low iq) are better in videogame creativity

>>106477096
We're talking solo devs here

>>106477007 (OP)
Game dev is barely programming, mostly game design

>>106477101
the original undertale was made in gamemaker studio. he basically did the whole game like in a blueprint system. you dont need to know how to code to use blueprints. once he made money off the game he hired actual programmers to port the game.

yes, because programming the game is just an implementation detail, the shitty scaffolding that renders your art assets as the designer intended
Programmers are famously uncreative, just look at how techbros reinivent things that already exist except as an online app platform where they take a huge fuck you cut just because.

>>106477129
>notch
>high iq

>>106477007 (OP)
no. the tools to give you serious programming understanding make you a mathematical god at creating digital art. but getting programming understanding will exhaust you.

>>106477007 (OP)
How the fuck would we know? You think /g/ ran a fucking research experiment about this?

>>106477007 (OP)
No, 0 == 0, none is > to the other.

>>106477354
Yes the failure known as gedg

>>106477007 (OP)
Yes, absolutely.
Programming is just something that is necessary, not something that adds a lot of SOVL in indie game development. Art, music, story, and direction are all that give a game SOVL. That's the hard part. Anyone can do the programming, and as long as the program does what is required, it doesn't matter what the code looks like.

>>106477007 (OP)
As a programmer, yes I'd say it's true.
An artist's codebase is almost guaranteed to be worse (= buggier, harder to maintain, slower) than if an experienced programmer had wrote it, but if it exists and it works and people enjoy playing the game then code quality doesn't seem to be very important in the end.

>>106477007 (OP)
both of them have a better chance than someone who sits on /g/ replying to garbage threads all day

>>106477007 (OP)
yes because the hard programming has already been done and is available in the from of engines

>>106477007 (OP)
Well it really depends on the game. Making a large engine is difficult, but frankly many indie dev projects are defined more by their soft features like art assets and story.

>>106477007 (OP)
This is true

>>106477007 (OP)
sure, art can be a big part of a game

>>106477007 (OP)
Sure. Which is why I don't care about video game programming.

>>106477007 (OP)
Just use AI. True successes understand business.

>Best selling game of all time
>Made by some swede dicking around with Java.
>Second best selling game of all time
>A bunch of commie nerds making a game about stacking blocks.
Neither are made by an artist.

>>106477007 (OP)
Yes. people meme on artists as being lazy but many of then have insane work ethic. It takes dedication to spend 100 hours on a fucking painting that won't sell for a 100 bucks.

Furthermore, they don't succumb to analysis paralysis and premature optimization because they don't analyze or optimize, they just vibe and do whatever they feel like at the moment. Programmers get stuck in the prototyping stage trying to create the perfect AI logic or the most optimized shader. Artist game devs are more likely to ship a product.

>>106477007 (OP)
doesn't matter, both are replaced by ai

>>106478307
Low hanging fruit, got lucky by being the early release. Next tell me FPS would not have progressed technologically if HL2 hadn't been released, because people speak of it as if it were fundamental rather than just a good product.

>>106477007 (OP)
It's 100% true and it's why I love AI

>>106478474
HL2 was 100% the result of programmers being superior to artists. There wasn't enough compute power back then when you can just bullshit your way through spaghetti code and shitty generic game engines like unity.

>>106477007 (OP)
It's true because 90% of a games charm comes from the art and music, the rest is gameplay, and nowadays you don't need to be a good programmer because there are effectively no hardware limits. If you wanted to make a SNES or a Sega Genesis game then the programmers skill set would be a bigger deal since good code there allows you to do effects not otherwise possible.

Sometimes this applies way more generally than game dev. There's a dude in a React group in my country that made a gymbro app totally vibecoded and managed to conjure 5k roided monsterbros and wannabes all in one place. The thing is so fucking amateur that he's receiving payments on his own bank personal account. The dude popped over there desperate because there was backend issues he had no idea how to solve. Everything was left speechless, but yeah, sometimes it happens. Maybe more than we wish to believe.

Art is a route to failure.
A programmer have better changes to succeed as, idk, electrical engineer or metalworker than as artist

>>106478452
>Furthermore, they don't succumb to analysis paralysis and premature optimization because they don't analyze or optimize, they just vibe and do whatever they feel like at the moment.
Exactly this. Some of us just don't know how to "let go", leave the annoying and small impediments to later and focus on the bigger picture. It's like the dude who spends days reading about the best auth method for his apps when the people signing people literally give zero fucks to that.

As an indie dev its true. Notch just won a lottery. An artist isn't going to make mario galaxy but neither is an indie programmer. Worrying about the shader pipeline or whatever the fuck when making a game is fucking stupid. And guess what. An artist might also be more like to do custom shading anyways because theyll just seat and watch a youtube tutorial.

>>106477007 (OP)
>quality
No, not really. Artistcucks can be just as dull as normiegroid programmers, while programmer autists (NOT paygrammers) still hold onto their sovl. Terry > slop maker.
Also gayplay creation requires neither artistic nor programming skill, it merely benefits from them (good representation, good implementation). Gayplay requires you first and foremost to know what kind of gayplay's engaging to humans, that's psychology unironically and personal gayming experience.
>money
Yeah sure slop makers can deal with visual representation ez while tech stack's heavily covered by gamedev engines. Can't do reverse for coooders, their tech experience is heavily covered by existing tools while ai doesn't yet give cohesive output consistent to the whole game project.

>>106477007 (OP)
I'd agree with this.
Mainly because you don't need that much skill in game design unless you're building your own engine. And fuck doing that.

Yes because game engines like Unity do a lot of the hard work for you

>>106477007 (OP)
Programmer art is peak SOVL

>>106477007 (OP)
There are more jobs for programmers than for artists.

>>106478993
You need to be older than 18 to post on 4chan.

>>106479602
What's your deal kiddo?

>>106477101
>the codebase is a giant plate of spaghetti
oh no that sucks
how does he sleep at night

>>106477007 (OP)
A thousand indieshit games come out every day, your chances are pretty slim either way. Doesn't make a difference if it's marginally better one way or another as it's mostly down to luck.

>>106479687
Guess the simple answer is to take the Fourier transform of trends in Good Games as expressed through the lens of how many small players use those same ideas in their personal projects

weed and lsd will make you an exceptional artist while exceptional programmer has to be born as one

>>106477096
Factorio has great art. You're not creating those kind of 360 renders as a non-experienced fartist.

>>106477129
Yeah, that’s one example and from almost two decades ago when the indie scene was fresh. Besides Minecraft is not a solo dev game, Notch just made Infiniminer clone with RPG mechanics, the rest of the game was made by Jeb and is still being made. Jeb is the reason Minecraft got its success rather then Notch, he was the one adding weird features since before the official release, and has been the true game director since then until very recently.

>>106477242
I can program, draw and make music but when it comes to story and gameplay, I have zero creativity.

>>106479765
exceptional programmers hold no value, you're being replaced by indians.

>>106477007 (OP)
It is technically true. It'll be a shit fucking game, but it will be talked about, that's the way indie game politics work. It's way, way more pozzed and faggoty than you can imagine. Autistic programmer heroes can't do shit, it's an industry that like all others requires dicksucking and people skills. If you just want to be a hobbyist for the game's sake, that's fine, but you can't just expect to make a living out of it on your own.

>>106479886
>It'll be a shit fucking game, but it will be talked about, that's the way indie game politics work
Stardew Valley is a great game and it was made by someone who couldn't code before he started. I think he has said afterwards his least favorite part of making the game was the programming part while his favorite was the music.

>>106479908
>what are exceptions
ok now do the 50,000 indie darling shitty art games that sell millions to normie retards

Programmers make hobbyist games beloved by a handful of autistic friends, artists and schmoozers make dreck that gets launched to household naming.

>>106477007 (OP)
Yes? Video games are mostly art, and only need just barely enough programming to make that art usable. It doesn't matter if they're designed competently because they're allowed to take full advantage of an entire exponentially-improving class of machine. Any dumb inefficient drag-and-drop GUI tool can be used to make a decent game. Game developers haven't needed to be good at programming for decades now.

>>106479919
>ok now do the 50,000 indie darling shitty art games that sell millions to normie retards
Name 5 of those 50.000 shit games that sold a million copies

>>106479926
Are you literally fucking retarded?

>>106477007 (OP)
/tv/ here.
There is not a single great movie made by a film school graduate. I'm not sure that translates as I don't play video games but I strongly suspect it does.

>>106479786
Minecraft was handed over to Jeb way after it became super successful

>>106477007 (OP)
I have studied design and later computer science, I am getting more mails from recruiters than people who did only CS or design.
So yes, this is true

>>106477007 (OP)
Indie game bar is pretty low with stuff like unity. You can make good games with pretty bad code.

>>106477029
>121x125

>>106479919
Trvke, just look at lethal company, peak, etc etc.

Friendslop that was made in a month or a cpuple made more than stardew valley did relatively in the same timeframe. The effort over years was equal to the same profits but I'd rather take a couple months and 80 million vs 6+ years and 500 million

>>106479952
really now. proof?

>>106477007 (OP)
Yes. Absolutely.
Becoming a decent programmer takes only a few month.
Becoming decent in most other fields (including art) takes years.

So it's way more viable to study an useful field first, while your learning capacity is high, and studying is the focus of your life.
Programming has always been a tertiary and optional skill.

>>106479782
Factorio hired a real artist at some point. The sprites are generated by screenshotting an actual fully-animated 3D model, now.
The original artstyle was terrible.

see https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-387
section "the foundry"

Factorio is an empyrical proof of OP's point.
The main/OG dev failed at delivering anything of value, and ultimately let an experienced artist step up.

>>106478290
No game art generation models are fully free and open source as of now.

>>106477007 (OP)
Programmers should be banned from designing anything. To create a solution to any problem, normal person asks:
>Is this solution good enough for 99% of people?
And so, a working solution is created.
But a codeshitter asks:
>AKSHUALLY, what if there is this specific type of retard?!
And behold, an open-source solution is created.
Programmers need to be constantly supervised to make sure they are creating proper solutions usable by normal people, who need their stuff to just work. Designers don't have this problem.

>>106479786
retard

>>106480602
Yeah, freetards just "doing their own thing" in design always has terrible consequences. It happens so often that Microsoft or Apple or whoever made the industry-standard program for the task already fucking solved the design, but freetards are so autistic they can't see the point and end up half-assing it.
>Programmers need to be constantly supervised to make sure they are creating proper solutions usable by normal people, who need their stuff to just work. Designers don't have this problem.
I completely agree. This goes for games too. It isn't hard to write a program the does things in a certain way (ok it sometimes is but nobody cares). The game designer's responsibility is to think up what should happen. The programmer's responsibility is to make what they're told.

>>106477007 (OP)
Wrong. The artist just need to stay artist while having programmers do their bidding. Ex kojimbo.

>>106477007 (OP)
AI or basic sketching to prototype
Fiverr for everything else
I did it, I made the game

>>106480444
Build it yourself with AI.

I wouldnt call myself an artist but I hope I can make a small game with what limited skills I have
I think releasing a game for free is anice goal for me to have in life, since I cant have a family

/g/ during European hours is so fucking dumb.
What stupid bullshit thread even is this?

>>106482792
>anon fails to understand something
>calls everyone that did understand that something dumb
wow, look at this Einstein gracing us with his presence.

I think is because normies don't care about things like optimization, binary size, multithreading, code quality.

At best you get normies complaining their unreal game has low FPS.

Meanwhile all normies care is about the story, the characters, music, the art.