Thread 106485392

I'm pretty handy with computers and can copy paste code and have worked as a website builder and graphic designer for 15 years but I'm tired of relying on coders and not really knowing what they are doing. I hear python is a good place to start?

>>106485392 (OP)
The best language to code in is English

>>106485392 (OP)
>I hear python is a good place to start?
Saaaaaaaar

>>106485392 (OP)
>I hear python is a good place to start?
you heard correctly

>>106485434
ignore these brahmins trying to keep dalits like you and me down.

his portfolio would be a good start

>>106485392 (OP)
Start learning webdev if your already Graphic designer.

>>106485392 (OP)
>>106485412
>>106485434
>>106485506
>>106485907
frontend work is for the dalits, but it would be the closest thing to your existing experience with websites

>>106485392 (OP)
programming isnt magic
basically if you want to make a project (this could be software, a website, or a minecraft cheat) you need to know how to program. you learn as you go. working as a programmer is just working on a companies project

>>106485392 (OP)
>learn to program
>in 2025
Don't be a retard and learn to prompt, luddite.

depends what your goals are. i would probably learn javascript over python since you seem like a web shitter. python is also a pretty bad language for anything other than consuming libraries.

Boot up an Apple ][ emulator and learn BASIC, then learn how to create small assembly routines.

After that everything is easy. It's all you need for an intro to both high and low level programming.

Another option is to get a classic HP RPN programmable calculator and learn how to program it. It's the same thing as learning assembly and the closest to the metal programming you can do from an easy to use environment.

>>106485907
How does he have over 1000 stars

>>106487337
I bet indians share accounts of each other in class and all star each other. Like citation rings but for githubs

>>106485392 (OP)
Python is good to start yes. However you should have a goal of what you want to do, otherwise you'll eventually give up.

I started learning in my 30s as well.
Just use Python if you value your peace.

>>106485907
His cctv-hack just makes requests to insecam.org true brahmin

>>106485907
calls the directory .py, I'm literally cumming.

>>106485907
pound my fucking labia

>>106485392 (OP)
pyshit is for making automated scripts, start with either c# or java

>>106487514
nice ansi escape sequences
he must be a pro

>>106485392 (OP)
If you have actually worked as a website builder then Javascript is the obvious choice. I wouldn't even think about it unless you're trying to pivot to something else.

>>106485392 (OP)
If you can understand and follow a logical train of thought, then you can learn to code. Simple as.

Since you're already into webdev, just learn JavaScript.

>>106485392 (OP)
My grandmother tried to learn to read when she was 22 years old. Her boss was a teacher and put her on a special course for adults. Even so, my grandmother died without knowing how to draw her own name. She was born illiterate and died illiterate.
And all because her learning window had already closed.
Based on this empirical experience, I affirm that nothing complex is learned after the age of 18. Music, singing, drawing, painting, programming, other languages and so on.

I learned how to... well, I've become good at vibe coding in Python over the past couple years lol

openwebui.com/f/radeon/deep_research_at_home

r8 my magnum opus

Just give up.

>>106487735
My mother taught a guy around that age how to read and write.
Either the course was shit or your grandma was retarded. At 22 there's still a lot of brain plasticity.
It's from 35 years onwards that all hope is lost.

>>106487735
>frog
>borderline retarded take
Checks out.

>>106485506
>Correctly
Fuck off, python is fucking scourge and teaching people all the worst habits of programming straight off the bat.
Use something that's typed for fuck sake, you'll learn way more

>>106487674
I'm thinking about pivoting to website testing/qa since I'm already really good at yelling at webdevs to fix my sites.

>>106485392 (OP)
any language is a good place to start so long as you get a good book on the language and read it. there's really only two realities to programming: 1. it's dogshit easy to learn because you're literally just issuing commands to something that is unable to say no. in this reality, you merely need a glossy of commands and basic intuition that you can compose them to create sophisticated automations. 2. it's just applied mathematics. if you're actually "computing" things and not merely creating an automation, you'll want to know more mathematics.

in both cases, either get 2-3 good books on the language you want to use or read a few good books on mathematics. there's literally nothing else you need to do to become a good programmer.

>>106488883
>a few good books on mathematics

suggestions?

>>106488894
search the internet or check mit opencourseware for what they teach in computer science or computer engineering. I'm not your mother. don't suckle the teet of laziness and non-intrepidness.

>>106488914
>check mit opencourseware for what they teach in computer science or computer engineering

that's awesome downloading now thank you

>>106485392 (OP)
Good for you anon, I'm about to graduate in software engineering at 32

Lol imagine going your whole life without picking up a bit of knowledge on this subject while using computers most days

>>106488948
use anna's archive, library genesis, or z-library for any books you need. I really must stress this. learn from books. don't learn from the internet and dipshit bloggers. do not learn from an LLM AI or any AI for that matter. even a 30 year old book is more valuable than nearly anything you can find on the internet. computer science and mathematics have not evolved that much in 100 years.

>>106488960
I have more than "a bit", I know more about code than the average person especially when i had to do html notepad websites back in the day. I just don't know more than that and I want to stop relying on non coder tools and other people.

>>106488958
what uni? very few have a SoftEng program.

>>106488973
I'm not him but I would say that classifying this as "a bit" is more like saying that you've done "a bit" to drain the ocean because you've scooped out a bit of water at the beach. I think it would serve you well to pretend that you're starting from zero and treating all existing knowledge as bonus.

>>106488970
>computer science and mathematics have not evolved that much in 100 years
It hasn't been quite 100 years. Most of modern computer science is based on concepts developed in the 50s and 60s.

>>106488245
>website testing/qa
so playwright, which is typescript (javascript)

>>106489035
you're 100%. admittingly I was being both optimistic and pessimistic depending on what you're willing to include as part of the field of study. after all, Ada Lovelace died in 1852 and the idea of mechanical computation was already very well underway.

>>106488178
Agreed. Python should only be used by people who know a lower level language like C++ and are aware of the shortcuts they're taking when they're using Python.
I love using Python for one-off scripts, but I wouldn't use it for anything serious. But on that note, JavaScript isn't a very good starting choice, either. Because JavaScript is one of those retarded languages where "1" == 1 == true. Start with C++ or Java or something like that instead.

>>106489001
Not un the US and the actual degree name is not that, but the course program is basically software engineering

>>106485907
>Parl
amazing

>retard baits another retard into thinking programming is mathematics
classic /g/

>>106488178
>>106489082
I harbor the same sentiment about Python as you two, as I do about JavaScript, but I think there's a lot to be said about what exactly it means to "program." that is, programming a computer (a CPU) is about issuing commands to get a desired result. that being said, a CPU can be designed in any number of ways to get the same result and ultimately for a lot of people, and even a lot of computer scientists, only the result matters. 1+1 is an inherently "declarative" expression as it does not describe the method of evaluation. this is made obvious by the fact that computers evaluate this in a vastly different way than the way humans do.

I would say that the divide really lies in your priorities. for some people, the priority is to merely evaluate the ideas. for others, it's about efficiently executing commands on a specific piece of hardware that is designed in a very specific way. computer scientists especially do not care about hardware, fundamentally. there's a reason why they talk about big O and not in terms of real time or number of CPU instructions.

with all that said, my point really is that people are confused about what they are doing when they are typing code in an text editor. I think certain programmers are less confused about this than others, like embedded programmers or video game console game developers.

what does this mean for all of the retard programmers working on Ruby on Rails applications? I'm not sure. I'm skeptical that any of that work has any value at all, and I'm increasingly convinced that it's all efforts of evil and amorality.

>>106489167
Yeah, I think I get your point, but my point really came down to this: for your first language, it might make more sense to pick a language that's more like a superset of other languages. That way, you can progress to any other language with relative ease. If you pick Python as your first language, it's going to be harder to progress to harder languages. You should look at the conveniences provided by Python as being just that: conveniences, not the default behavior you should expect from a programming language. Python was like my 3rd or 4th language. If you know Java and C/C++, then you can basically learn Python in a day. Not so much the other way around.

>>106485907
print('''\033[91m
),\ /,(
/__'. .'/__
`) `'-. \ AKASH BLACK HAT / .-'` ('
/ _.--'\ '. , , .' /'--._ |
\ _.`'-.,_'-.|/\ \ _,_ / /\|.-'_,.-'`._ /
`\ .-' /'-.|| \ |.-" "-.| / ||.-'\ '-. /`
)-'` .' :|| / -.\ //.- \ ||: '. `'-(
/ .' / \_ | /●`^'●\ | _// \ '. )
`) _.' .' .--.; |\__"__/| ;.--. '. '._ ('
/_.' .-' _.-' \ \/^\/ // `-._ '-. '.
'-._' /` _ \-.-// _ `\ '_.-'
`< _,..--''`| \`"`/ |`''--..,_ >`
_\ ``--..__ \ `'` / __..--`` /_
/ '-.__ ``'-; / \ ;-'`` __.-'
'-._ '-._ / |---|---| \ _.-' _.-'
`'-._ '/ / / /---|---\ \ \ ' _.-'`
`)` ` /'---'\ ` `(`
/_____/| / \._\ /_./ \ |\_____
version:3.0
''')

Happy Hacking! Stay ethical and responsible

>>106489212
I respect this position. I've deliberated for many years and I've been on both sides of the fence. I've deliberated on the issue so much that I'm no longer sure what language is better.

I think I might just believe that it doesn't matter what language you learn so long as you learn it properly. as such, even if you learned Python and later needed to learn C, I'd suggest that it doesn't matter if you learned Python first because you would always need to learn C properly. C++ is a good example for this. C++ is a totally different language from C. it just has the appearance of C and some overlapping characteristics, but these overlapping characteristics are largely for interoperability and sometimes coincidental agreement. it's not designed for so-called "C/C++" interlopers. I would also argue that a C programmer should also not assume that their C knowledge is applicable to Python.

in fewer words, I guess what I'm saying is that the assumption that raw knowledge and intuitions are portable across programming languages is an unstable foundation for serious programmers and creates bad code as a result.

>>106489212
And people should learn to ski backwards on one leg on an icy slope at a 60 degree vertical. That way when they want to go down the bunny hill it'll be a piece of cake.

>>106485907
Jeets are really something else, if you're a hacker should you even expose yourself as one? He even showcased his riced desktop, for what purpose?

>>106489290
>>106489291
Yeah, fair enough. Honestly, I think that if you know any one programming language really well, then learning another language won't be that hard for you. After all, wasn't that the same experience all of us had? None of us started with bytecode or assembly, but somehow we still ended up learning the important, cross-transferable computer science foundations of these languages anyhow, right?
So yeah, I don't think it's super important which language you start with. If you know one language deeply, you basically know them all. It's not that big of a big deal. If you know everything there is to know about python, then nobody can honestly say that you suck at programming or lack CS knowledge. It's just that I think some languages are better at instilling a "this is how computers work" sense of intuition and knowledge than others. Python is easy, it's fun, I love it. I use it all the time. But I'm glad it wasn't my first language. I feel like Python itself would have been a bit harder to understand if it was.

>>106489429
>I think some languages are better at instilling a "this is how computers work" sense of intuition and knowledge than others
I absolutely agree with you. this is why I'm not sure how treat certain categories of programmers that do not seem to care about this. I would argue that all industry programmers should very deeply care about how their code interacts with the hardware, and even whether their code wastes time and space with a garbage collector, because ultimately wasteful code is such an enormous waste of money but even worse, even worse, it's an enormous drain on our economy and our ecosystem. I would argue that all of these retard TypeScript developers have done more environmental harm than cars and cryptocurrencies combined.

>>106489455
Hmm... now that I think about it, the more I think maybe "just pick a language, any language" is the way to go when it comes to programming.
Even take something as abstract and high level as Python, for example. Let's say that Python is all you know about programming. Well... then you know that Python will still complain when you try to say "1" == 1, right? So, if you use Python all the time for everything, eventually you will become familiar with the concept of data 'types', and how different types aren't simply arbitrarily equivalent with one another. Like... there's 'numbers'. and 'words'. And 'objects'. And these are all treated differently. Like... that's just basic logic, right?
So then say you get even deeper into it. What's the difference between a 'list' and a 'set'? Why does Python have 'dictionaries' and why would they be used over something else?
You can use all of this to work backwards from some of the abstractions that Python provides. And from there, you can become a good, well rounded programmer.

>>106489545
But on the other hand, there are 'vibe coder' types who don't care about any of this, and will just copy and paste and proooompt whatever BS they need to get something that appears like it works. That is what needs to be discouraged. Such people are not exercising or building their knowledge of computer science in any way

>>106489545
this is essentially how assembly programmers learned to want to have something like C (or even B before that, and whatever came before B but after the invention of assembly language). working with a processor directly is essentially typeless programming. all you have is registers of a certain size. on some machines, there is even only one size of register. there are no float types or string string or complex numerical types or anything aside from a thing that holds a sequence of bits. there certainly are no structs or classes or newtypes or subtypes or lifetimes.

anecdotally, I also started programming with PHP and Perl. the starting point doesn't matter so long as you're willing to branch out and ask questions. I think the real struggle we're facing as an industry, as a society, is that most industry programmers are uninterested in honing their craft and asking questions. just trying to get a pay check and go home. I don't think picking the right language will change the outcome here.

>>106489582
Honestly... I think most industry programmers want to ask questions. They want to branch out. But this industry is still 'hard'. To get into, that is. It's competitive. Many smart people tend to gravitate towards here.
Personally? I remember a time in this industry when, like... you could do 'FizzBuzz' in just about any language, and you could find a company that would hire you. Easily. But in the past decade or so... it is clear: it's NOT that easy to become a "programmer" anymore. You can't just look up a few tutorials online and expect to break into the industry these days.
You, starting out with PHP and Perl... it makes me think you began coding in the 00s, when these languages were especially popular and dominant, which means you'd be highly experienced in... whatever 4chan needs to maintain itself by now? That much would seem clear

>>106489670
>Honestly... [snip] It's competitive. [snip]
this is what I'm referring to when I say that people are only interested in making money. I don't think it's competitive more than that it's simply difficult to find good programmers in a sea of idiots that have pulled the bar down so far that it's now more appropriate to use it a a limbo bar.. which I think is an appropriate way to think of modern interviews as.
>Personally? I remember a time in this industry when, like... you could do 'FizzBuzz' in just about any language, and you could find a company that would hire you. Easily. But in the past decade or so... it is clear: it's NOT that easy to become a "programmer" anymore. You can't just look up a few tutorials online and expect to break into the industry these days.
I can confirm that there was a time when the bar was very low. in retrospect, it's kind of retarded that anyone thought FizzBuzz was a test of any skill at all. at worst, it's a litmus test that you can read the first chapter of any programming language reference. at best, it might indicate that you have some pre-calculus knowledge of math. neither of those seem impressive to me now, not by modern standards but by any standards.
>it makes me think you began coding in the 00s
accurate. I was still a bumbling dipshit copying and pasting JavaScript and doing simple stuff with ActionScript in Macromedia Flash MX in the earlier of the early 00s and by 2004 I was experimenting with Linux, PHP, Perl and a little bit of C. I wouldn't say that I'm highly experienced in PHP and Perl anymore. those languages have evolved considerably and I've totally forgotten how to use them effectively. I've always been on and off with C but I've been using it a lot more the past year and a half after a nearly 10 year stint with Go and a 4 year stint with Rust.
>which means you'd be highly experienced in... whatever 4chan needs to maintain itself by now?
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

>>106489748
>>accurate. I was still a bumbling dipshit copying and pasting JavaScript and doing simple stuff with ActionScript in Macromedia Flash MX in the earlier of the early 00s and by 2004
Yeah, nice... so what I mean is, you've been programming, and kind of surrounded by this world of computing for longer than than many of us have even been alive.
I mean... I was born in 2004. So by the time I even spawned on this planet, you already had programming experience. Cool. So how am I supposed to compete with you? Like when would it even be fair to assume I would have the knowledge, skill, wisdom, and experience that someone who's been programming since 2004 would have? Learning FizzBuzz was enough to get ahead in your day, so why is it laughable when we try to do the same? If you think about it, it's pretty unfair desu. It was good enough for you, but for us, we just need to go above and beyond to prove that we're worthy of the same position. Damn.

>>106489812
first and foremost I want to say that I sympathize with your situation so please don't take the following as a dismissal of your experience or your frustrations.
>It was good enough for you
I didn't enter the workforce until 2010 so realistically, it was at least 6 years of effort in independent learning that got me a job. that's longer than just getting a computer science degree.
>but for us, we just need to go above and beyond to prove that we're worthy of the same position.
technically, we're not fighting for the same position. there's in theory supposed to be a difference between senior workers and junior workers.
>So how am I supposed to compete with you?
I think the question here is more .. how does one compete in a competitive market? there are a lot of competitive markets. there were very few programming jobs when I started, and even fewer when I was learning how to program. all burgeoning industries get more competitive over time.
>Like when would it even be fair to assume I would have the knowledge, skill, wisdom, and experience that someone who's been programming since 2004 would have?
I would argue that it's actually very easy to develop that knowledge by reading books. I've said it more than once in this thread but there are numerous books that are both comprehensive and yet concise enough to give you a lot of hidden knowledge in a few months if not weeks. most programmers sit on their laurels and never bother to read a specification or a programming language reference, opting to learn from a trickle from non-expert blogging retards that only care about marketing and influence.
>laughable when we try to do the same?
I haven't laughed at you. if I have been deriding anyone in this thread, I'm actually deriding the so-called "senior" developers in the industry. you'd be totally, utterly slackjawed if I told you that most senior software "engineers" are total shams.

>>106485392 (OP)
Create a chrome extension and add scripts that make your favorite sites easier to use.
With F12 you can test the javascript code.

>>106485392 (OP)
If you already have some experience with building websites, learn JS. Honestly, language doesn't matter so much - once you learn the fundamentals of programming, it should only take a week or two to learn a new language.

>>106485392 (OP)
Get a good mathematics and CS education, learn the relevant languages that will help you tackle problems in ${X_PROBLEM_DOMAIN}, solve problems in that domain by writing software, by writing papers, or whatever.
>i'm in it for the money
Uhh, just become a web shitter, create hobby projects, get basic CS knowledge, do hackerrank/leetcode interview webshittery, become 'engineer' (kek you will never be a real engineer) and 'engineer' solutions to 'problems' for a stupid amount of money if you live in the right place.

>>106485392 (OP)
My grandfather in his 70s, is learning to code to turn his house into a smart house

>>106485392 (OP)
These anons >>106491507 >>106491538 have the right of it.

>>106485392 (OP)
either this is a pasta or you're stuck in a bad acid trip or somefeng lulz

you've been saying this for years now. enjoy the ride

>>106485392 (OP)
Just use AI. Learning to code is a waste of time. AI will replace all hand coding. AI is great. Learn to prompt, free your mind from the drudgery. Learn AI. Use AI.

>>106485392 (OP)
>website builder and graphic designer
Python is dog shit for those. Just learn JavaScript. It's like python but better.

>>106491538
>Get a good mathematics and CS education
99% of coding is high school math. When projects get big and complex enough it's just a matter of IQ. Formal CS education is a scam

>>106487281
Vibe coding isn't real and you still need to know how to code to bring something to a production level

>>106489812
>but for us, we just need to go above and beyond to prove that we're worthy of the same position
Back then you had to actually open and read books or go to college to learn how to code. If you didn't have access to either you were shit out of luck. Now you type in "Claude, make a multi level pendulum that is affected by gravity, best quality, production quality code" and it cooks it up for you. It takes the same time as figuring out FizzBuzz in the 90s.

>>106491952
>Back then you had to actually open and read books
but sam hyde told me i can only read 3 books a year

>>106492517
sam hyde sounds like a massive flaming homosexual.

>>106489349
>should you even expose yourself as one
yes, if you want to work legally and help companies increase their defenses.

>>106489455
>because ultimately wasteful code is such an enormous waste of money
Agreed, it really is baffling. But otoh, I've seen what that it is an even bigger waste of money to do rote task via human labour instead of digitizing them. So getting 100 IQ type people into programming can still have marginal utility.

>>106491943
Fake. Ai is improving.

>>106494335
So much this. AI is improving at such a rapid rate. We just need 500 billion more dollars.

>>106487281
I prefer to learn the fundamentals of things before i use tools to automate

>>106488970
bullshit, use ai and do small shitty projects