Who was the most Sagacious leader of the late Han/Three Kingdoms period? Who was also the most fatuous?

um, you’re chinese

Who was also the most fatuous?

>>17780771 (OP)
Fatuous? Liu Zhang probably. Man had the most fertile lands but did fuck all with it. Although Liu Biao also pisses me off.
Sagacious? Probably Sima Yi and not Cao Cao. Cao Cao won everything by his own skill, Sima Yi stole everything through deception and intrigue and THAT is true skill.

>>17780815
Lu bu is worse. Literally betrays all his closest allies and advisors for literally no reason on numerous occasions and is a cuck.

why did he do it /his/?

>>17780771 (OP)
Obviously Liu Bei

>>17780835
That's not entirely true, ROTK is basically Luo Guanzhong taking every fucking folk story of the Three Kingdoms period and ramming it into the Records of the Three Kingdoms, but really the situation was a chaotic mess. Whether Lü Bu's was sagacious or fatuous he found himself surrounded by enemies and traitors to the puppet Emperor.

He served Ding Yuan but Dong Zhou showed up and was clearly stronger and Ding wouldn't submit so he had to kill Ding to prove his loyalty to Dong and save him and his men from dying pointlessly then Yuan Shao defeated Dong who fled to Chang'an so he left Dong and joined Shao's half-brother Shu but Shu didn't want him so he went to Shao and helped him defeat Zhang Yan however now Shao didn't need him anymore and tried to kill him so he fled again to join Zhang Miao and Chen Gong to help them rebel against the dodgy Cao Cao who had kidnapped the emperor though he was defeated so he had to flee to Liu Bei who had taken Xiapi from Cao Cao who gave Lü Bu Xiaopei however later Yuan Shu defeated Liu Bei so Lü Bu decided to take over Xiapi and give Liu Bei Xiaopei so now in a stronger position he could stop the war with Shu ostensibly by winning an archery contest (obviously another folk story, more likely he just threatened to intervene) however Shu declared himself emperor and everyone declared war on him in a campaign led by Prime Minister Cao Cao "serving" the Han emperor which Lü Bu nearly didn't join because Shu offered to marry his son to Lü Bu's daughter however Lü Bu remembered Shu is treacherous and has a shifting sense of loyalty so he decided against it and joined Cao Cao but then Cao Cao proved to be equally treacherous and sided with Liu Bei to get Xiapi back while he was away fighting Shu so Lü Bu sided with Shu and went back to defend Xiapi where Cao defeated Lü Bu by breaking dams and flooding the city, so you see it wasn't quite as depicted in ROTK.

>most sagacious
Cao Cao or Sima Yi. I like Liu Bei, but he was carried by Kongming
>most fatuous
Yuan Shao. He was the most equipped to take on the imperial court during the reigns of Dong Zhuo and Cao Cao but completely failed on both fronts.

>>17780942
>liu bei was most equipped to conquer the southlands but failed
>cao cao was most equipped to wipe out sun liu alliance but failed
Everyone has their failures.

>>17780815
>219
>eve of collapse
Han already collapsed in 189. By 219 the chaos had mostly ended and order restored.

>>17780771 (OP)
What's the best way to learn this? It seems interesting and I have the books but I'm not sure if it's best, or if actual history books on the period are better. Or like..just playing dynasty warriors

>>17781177
Yuan Shao was one of the strongest warlord in the realm by the Dong Zhuo took power, and definitely the strongest warlord after the death of Dong Zhuo. However he failed to take out Dong Zhuo and basically allowed Cao Cao to capture the emperor and shorten the gap between the two. It's not as if he didn't have talent either but he was an incompetent man who was an incredibly poor judge of character which is why he allowed the son of a eunuch to completely destroy him

>>17781275
Watch the show (or play the vidya) so you know the general folk narrative, then you can read books or watch historical videos to better understand the actual history.

>>17780771 (OP)
>sagacious and fatuous
lol yeah, good book

>>17780851
The Yellow Turbans did nothing wrong
>He Man
hehe

>>17780851
He was a good guy who did not do anything wrong. Cao Cao was just a massive sperg.

Why did Dong Zhuo make everyone seethe?

>>17781275
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxJCPxmL7k&list=PLCldpz_Pc1FrGQLsaxaV0kVPqmXN_nanN
https://nyaa.si/view/914676

>>17781869
Cuz he was raping bitches and eating people

>>17782050
I don't think anyone disputed he was Han Chinese anon

>>17782050
>eating people
You mean Liu Bei?

>>17782587
He was tricked. Dong Zhuo eat them will full knowledge

>>17781869
He was ursurping the throne in all by name and people got mad that they werent the one doing it.

>>17782655
>get mad about Dong Zhuo usurping the throne
>revolt to overthrow him and seize the throne for yourself

>>17782659
yeah, they were angry that its not them on the throne

>>17780771 (OP)
Dong Zhuo was based and I'm tired of pretending he wasn't

>>17781869
Made it way, way too obvious the official political system had failed. There had been a long series of overly powerful regents for the past hundred years, but they all were politically savvy enough to keep up the fiction of the legal system working as intended by pretending their legitimacy came from the Emperor. Dong Zhuo made it way, way too damn obvious that the source of his "legitimacy" was not the Emperor but his command of the army occupying the capital city. Once you revert political power to military power, laws get thrown out and it becomes a free-for-all between anyone who can raise an army.

>>17782659
>>17783298
Society only works from the tacit agreement between everyone to talk things out and go through "official channels" and obey laws and shit. If an important enough guy breaks the agreement that you have to resort to violence, then violence because the decision maker, society collapses, and you get total chaos where 90% of your population either dies or disappears into the wilderness.

>>17780771 (OP)
Why did Mao like Cao Cao so much?

>>17780771 (OP)
Heaven just hated him. He was just a loyal servant, the best servant.

>>17784459
His main rival's descendants went on to found the single shittiest dynasty in Chinese history is the worst part.