Thread 17797375

>Israel is initially founded by a bunch of continental socialist Euro Jews who dream of communal living and labour politics and shit
>Israel today is a literal right wing ethnostate governed by religious radicals, nationalists, and techcapitalists
Unironically what the hell happened there?

>>17797375 (OP)
Zionism was always right-wing, Pissrael has been reactionary since its inception.

Ethnonationalist raison d'être, receiving US support while enemies received Soviet support, pro-right/religious birthrate discrepancy, harsh reality of political existence in the Middle East

>>17797388
hmmm yeah I guess that actually answers it

>>17797375 (OP)
The Israeli left had genuinely convinced the Israeli people in the 1990s that Palestinians weren't just bloodthirsty savages and the peace process would work. When presented with a very reasonable deal in the year 2000, the Palestinians stalled then started the worst insurgency Israel had ever faced to try and get more concessions. That sealed the deal on israel becoming a new Sparta that feels it is constantly under siege. I have a hard time seeing that change as well, since the Palestinians are incapable of not behaving like barbarians.

This completely killed the israeli left, paving the way for Netanyahu, and 25 years later it is basically nonexistent.

>>17797525
If the second intifada buried it, then the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza under Sharon pissed on it. That was in itself an experiment on how they would approach the West Bank, for Israel. A control group. It brought more terror. That is why there is such an aversion to anything other than the status-quo in Judea and Samaria. Israel wasn't even ready to go straight back to Likud after a failed Labor attempt at brokering peace. They went to Kadimah. And then Kadimah's olive branches rotted, and became poisonous to its constituents. In comes the 'Bibi-sitter'.

>>17797525
Genuinely what the fuck do they think will happen 50 or 70 years from now? Even if they outright annexed the West Bank they'd simply be making themselves into a South Africa type situation and inevitably have to deal with that as well

why do people call Israel "the only democracy in the middle east" when a right wing warmonger has been president for 25% of its existence?

>>17797375 (OP)
Massively decreased IQ.

>>17797375 (OP)
>literal rightwing
Most feminist/lgbt accepting country in the middle east btw

>>17797667
Propaganda

>>17797667
Well, he's a democratically elected right wing warmonger.
In all seriousness, Netanyahu has a 'mandate' in that he forms coalitions, he can't stay in power without collaborating with others who agree to work out a deal with him. At the moment he has to pander to the religious conservatives or else his government collapses. Since Israel uses a British-style Westminster system, the office of Prime Minister also has no fixed "terms" or term limits either.

>>17797667
Turkey exists and is arguably more democratic even despite recent history

Alot of the same reasons why Europe started turning right with the refugee and migrant crisis.

>>17797664
The same thinking that motivated Soith Africa and Rhodesia.
Sunk cost fallacy + fear of retribution.

>>17797996
His coalition would've broken ages ago had he not developed a habit of starting a new war every time a vote he'd lose is going on, that's not democratic. Not to mention the guy before him was assassinated by someone affiliated with likud.
>>17798162
Also Tunisia, which is by far the best European-styled democracy in the region.

>>17797525
Don't forget withdrawing from Gaza and immediately facing 100K rockets as a result and then Oct 7

Lebanon as well. Israeli left got destroyed because of the nature of Islamists and the complete betrayal, If not consciously malicious approach, of the so called international community.

>>17798198
I don't dispute that Bibi is an evil cunt, I'm just saying that Israeli society is also complicit in it all. They are a democracy (for Jews), this is the government they chose to elect. If Israelis are too dumb to see through Netanyahu's BS tactics, or if they simply don't care and support it, is another matter.

>>17797525
>When presented with a very reasonable deal
hello JIDF. how was your morning in tel aviv?

>>17797375 (OP)
Mizrahim migrants thought those socialist continentals were a bunch of pussy faggots, basically

>>17799141
Bibi does have a strong and loyal base even if it isn't a majority of the population. He's a lot like Trump in that regard (although also smarter than Trump). Political coalition maneuvering does the rest.

>>17799858
I think they might be at least half-wrong because the Israeli left decisively won wars. Otoh the division in Israeli society defining left and right as peace and hawk camps as it became doesn't really make sense in the 1960s.

>>17797375 (OP)
When they were founded they had the backing of Russia. They swapped Russia for America because they figured it would be a stronger ally, at least for the time being.
It's worth mentioning Jews don't believe in left wing or right wing. It's all just a game for them and they'll claim to believe in anything if they think it will cause them to come out on top.

>>17797664
South Africa was a colonial outpost with a metropole to return to if shit really got bleak. Israel is "the holy land." They cant go back where they came from.

>>17799141
>They are a democracy (for Jews)
Arab citizens have full voting rights.

>>17799183
Explain what was unreasonable about it as a starting point to fully normalized sovereignty?

>>17799970
Afrikaners aren't Dutch, only Anglo Saffers "went back", but the Afrikaans are tied down there and people often forget that many of them are genuinely poor and can't just pack up and leave willy nilly
>>17799974
Yeah but they're a token minority, let's be real here. It's like how the USA also always had some elected black Congressmen and government officials here and there pre-1960s but they were largely irrelevant in the overall national governance and policy decisions

>>17799995
>Yeah but they're a token minority, let's be real here. It's like how the USA also always had some elected black Congressmen and government officials here and there pre-1960s but they were largely irrelevant in the overall national governance and policy decisions
Youll notice i didnt trot out "there are even arab parties with seats in parliament!" (although there was an arab party in the ruling coalition briefly) the fact remains that they are franchised so do have a say in who governs them.

>>17799979
It was quite literally a Manchukuo style deal. You are not a soverign country when Israel annexes a fucktonne of your land and then controls your security, border and policies.

>>17797375 (OP)
Mizrahis ruined it, unironically. They're the bedrock of the right-wing and its more extreme variants today too. Just look

>>17797375 (OP)
Mizrahis ruined it, unironically. They're the bedrock of the right-wing and its more extreme variants today too. Just look at guys like Ben Gvir.

>>17797525
>european immigrants with a made up language and slavic lastnames flood your country and say God promised it to them 3000 years ago so you need to leave
I don’t know how there are people that think its an irrational decision to want to violently get these insane terrorists off your land

>>17800188
Ok, so they didn't have total sovereignty. It was a starting point, not something they needed to accept in perpetuity. The Israelis had a point when they said the deal they had in 1947 was absurd with indefensible borders, yet they accepted it instead of waiting for a perfect deal to be handed to them if they just kept killing british and arabs.

It was an opportunity for the palestinians to show they could be trusted as a good faith partner, and were willing to share the land instead of clinging to genocidal fantasies of driving the Jews into the sea. At which point things could have changed. Instead by literally blowing up the deal they ensured they would only get further and further marginalization. Turning down that deal has proved to be a disaster for the Palestinian people.

>>17797525
Israel was colonizing Palestine and kept doing it even after having offered their "deals".

>>17800202
>European immigrants with a made up language and slavic lastnames flood your country
>your country
What country was that? When Jewish immigrants started arriving in the future Israel they were settling in a Vilayet of the Ottoman Empire, then a British Mandate. It was not the state of the people living there, and those people did not even have a national identity. Palestinian nationalism is ironically younger than Jewish nationalism. (note, this is not a statement that Palestinian nationalism is invalid for that reason, only that your statement shows you are historically illiterate)

>>17800214
land swaps were an inherent part of those deals

>>17800215
>x country didn’t exist because x country was formally part of a bigger entity
Non-sensical zionist talking point that can apply to any country that was part of the Ottomans at the time

>both accomplished Generals who kicked Arabs' asses
>both went to become PMs of Israel
>Rabin led the Oslo Accords ceding lands and recognizing the PLO
>gets shot by fanatic
>"peace process" frozen
>Sharon the hardliner who designed the settlements
>December 2005: for "peace" sake, under the pressure of George Bush, evacuates every single Israeli settlement in Gaza forcibly removing his own people
>suffers a DEVASTATING stroke that leaves him in coma for a decade before dying
>2007, Hamas takes over Gaza
>future ramifications will be catastrophic (as seen now)
Really makes you fucking think

>>17800220
except there literally wasn't a palestinian identity at that time. The future palestinians were then no different from the sunni arabs living in Jordan.

>>17800223
Identity was tied to the land, Palestinians are those who lived in Palestine

>>17800226
that's not what a national identity is. If you asked the people living there if they were palestinian they wouldn't have any idea what you were talking about.

>>17800233
You can just read what people wrote about the region, the land was referred to as Palestine and the people living there Palestinians. There was no “israel”

>>17800247
ok then, what should I read?

>>17800251
Ask chatgpt

> the people living there Palestinians
xD

>>17800261
why even bother posting if you're just going to humiliate yourself by abdicating an argument like this?

>>17800285
I can’t remember what it was but i read a document written before the 20th century that called the inhabitants of the land palestinians.

>>17800302
was it written by the people living there referring to themselves as palestinians, or was it written by someone from western europe using that term to describe the region because they had a classical education and knew the ancient romans referred to that region as Palestine from the 2nd century onwards, and they didn't want to use the Ottoman name for it?

>>17800306
>and they didn't want to use the Ottoman name for it?
???
The Ottoman name for it is Falastin which is just Palestine in Arabic

Well that's not right, it was all part of Ottoman Syria. Jerusalem, Jaffa, and Hebron were in the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem. Haifa, Galilee, and Acre were in the Vilayet of Beirut, and the Jordan Valley, and eastern interior were in the Vilayet of Damascus. There was no "Falastin."

>>17800346
Those are administrative divisions, but the region was called Palestine. Your logic is fundamentally flawed however because whatever those people called themselves they are the ancestors of modern day Palestinians who cluster closer with the ancient israelites than the jews who larp as them do, which is a living testament that they have been living in the land longer than any jewish larper with a Russian last name speaking a made up language has.

>>17800202
>God promised it to them 3000 years ago so you need to leave
This is an autistic pet peeve of mine, but they never said God promised it to them, the first Zionists were secular nationalists who were essentially claiming the land for the same reasons that German nationalists wanted to claim every bit of Poland or Bohemia that had a German presence at some point. They saw the Levant as their "racial homeland", not as a Divine promise.

>>17800418
can you provide a single shred of evidence to back up this supposed "falestinian" identity?

>>17797375 (OP)
Mizrahi immigration happened.
Israel is not actually a neo-colonial white supremacist ethno state. It’s actually an extremely accelerated example of what low IQ Middle Eastern immigration will inevitably do to western countries.
At this point actual old blood Ashkenazis are a tiny elite aristocracy compared to the vast multitudes of Mizrahis, Arabs and random Slavic fake-Jews. This is why the state is happy to bend over and subsidise anti-Zionist Haredim, their practical function is to provide insular, genetically pure Ashkenazi breeding factories.

>>17800941
>At this point actual old blood Ashkenazis are a tiny elite aristocracy compared to the vast multitudes of Mizrahis, Arabs and random Slavic fake-Jews.
Yes this is actually-existing Israel:
https://youtu.be/fHt2A5JNY6E

>>17800210
>promised self determination if they fight the ottomans
>war ends
>the eternal anglo reneges on promise
>violent and absentee landowning settlers arrive with intentions from apartheid to genocide
>every superpower backs their war
>apartheid and genocide for half a century before
>"cede the majority of your land, give control the security, border and foreign policy, subjugate your domestic policy, economy, etc. and maybe we'll break the deal in 5 instead of 10 years"
>very reasonable
sar your computer has virus very good deal sar

>>17797525
0.1 shekels have been deposited to your account

>>17800233
that simply not true my grandparents and their parents called themselves Palestinian

>>17797375 (OP)
European leftism isn't really about communism, it was theorized to be the perfect way to consolidate Jewish power into a ruling class (dictatorship of the proletariat) that could ensure that the entire wealth of the nation was free to be used as they wished. You go into any country as a Bolshevik, get rid of all other power structures and place yourself at the top, no private ownership means you get a more direct way of manipulating industry without having to bother with finance. There was one issue, they always got subsumed by nativist elements and pogromed within 5 seconds of the revolution taking place. Stalin chased out much of the Jews in the revolutionary guard by accident because he was so paranoid, but Khrushchev and his successors completed the work and made the USSR a largely Russian institution. The Labor movement in Israel was largely made up of central and eastern European Jewish emigrees who knew among themselves what the purpose of communism was, they still gave it a fair shot with the kibbutzim, but that was more national socialist than leftist and when they became antiquated Israeli politics moved on from it.

>>17798162
Erdog is basically a dictator with a cult of personality surrounding him.
We will see what happens after he is gone.

>>17797375 (OP)
Jews are open borders leftists in goyim nations and rabid ethnonationalists when it comes to their own interests. Hope that helps.

>>17798177
Which tribe let them in?

>>17800941
My first impression: On top, the judges, the best of German Jewry. Below them, the prosecuting attorneys, Galicians, but still Europeans. Everything is organized by a police force that gives me the creeps, speaks only Hebrew, and looks Arabic. Some downright brutal types among them. They would obey any order. And outside the doors, the Oriental mob, as if one were in Istanbul or some other half-Asiatic country. In addition, and very visible in Jerusalem, the peies [sidelocks] and caftan Jews, who make life impossible for all reasonable people here.

>>17797381
directionbrained nonsense with 0 comprehension for nuance

>>17797525
>reasonable deal
the Israeli government itself didn't think it was reasonable lmao

>>17800941
the "Israel is white supremacist" take somehow manages to be even dumber than standard "ZOG" antisemitism