Thread 17816492

It turns out that the Levantine elite of Carthage had replaced their entire population with Greek and South Italic mercenaries and cheap labor. By the time of the Punic Wars the Carthaginian population was composed almost entirely of Punicized Greeks. It is entirely possible that even Hannibal himself was of largely Greco-Italic ancestry.

This begs the question, just how culturally Semitic was Carthage? One would expect that they would have massive Greek cultural infusion as well.

>>17816492 (OP)
>begs the question
might want to look that up. anyway, i think the phoenician burial practice was cremation but i could be wrong. then if inhumation was slaves, mercenaries, contractors that's skew result - perhaps "survivor bias". maybe there's teeth in some jars that'd better represent the "elite".

>>17816492 (OP)
Carthage and hannihal went african kangs to berber quadroons to semite araps to south euros. What is next? Finns.

>>17816605
They couldn't find samples before 600 BC and assume that they simply shifted away from cremation practices.

>The authors obtained genome-wide data for 196 individuals from 14 sites identified as Phoenician and Punic all across the Near East, North Africa, Iberia, Sicily and Sardinia, as well as an early Iron-Age individual from Algeria. These regions include both the Phoenician homeland, and the sweep of the western Mediterranean that would have been part of the Carthaginian Empire in the 4th through 3rd centuries BC. Unfortunately, the dataset only includes Punic individuals after 600 BC, since the universal preference prior was for cremation. The shift away from cremation began several centuries after the initial settlement from Phoenicia, which, as we’ve noted, likely dates to the 900’s at the latest. And yet still, with genome-wide coverage, these samples allow a detailed survey of the breadth of genealogies present across the Punic settlement zone from Carthage’s peak centuries of power, all the way into the early decades of Rome’s pan-Mediterranean domination.

I guess it's possible that the Levantines were there all along and that they were simply extremely studious about cremating all of their people at all levels of society until the end, but that seems unlikely. We have plenty of samples from Phoenicia itself. The paper itself is paywalled so I don't know their reasoning for assuming these were actual Carthaginians:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-08913-3

>>17816630
yes, anything is possible if there's no data. if there's labeled and named known "elites remains" we could use that as elite carthaginian dna. maybe if the graveyard was segregated as well. i'd be hesitant to base a paper on unknowns, the phoenicians did like enslaving their conquests.

>>17816492 (OP)
>important to history and culture
>wasn't negro
What a surprise.

>>17816492 (OP)
Yeah they did a bunch of samples on Kerkouane and found the exact same thing. a lot of the samples came from Siciliy and other parts of the European Mediterranean regions

>Our results suggest that the Punic demographic expansion was primarily driven by the spread of people with Aegean-like ancestry. We conclude this because the dominant ancestry observed in our Punic dataset matches the ancestry observed in Bronze Age Aegean and Sicilian populations, and Bronze and Iron Age Sicilians in turn derived a large proportion of their ancestry from Aegean populations due to expansions in the Middle to Late Bronze Age and Iron Age.

Keep in mind, the elite was probably even more european/med. hannibal definitely did not look like a nafri.
basically the punic wars were just a inter italian fight. the only role of berbers was to be slaves and mercenaries for their sicilian overlords.

>>17816492 (OP)
i remember copers claiming that kerkouane was an exception and the funniest thing is that carthage itself has turned out to be less nafri than kerkouane

>>17818555
Kerkouane was more european than Carthage so it was kind of an exception, it was a lot more "continental" mediterranean.
Kerkouane was intermediate between corsicans and west sicilians. Basically central italians. Carthage was maltese with extra nafri.

>>17818650
if you exclude the outliers, when all outliers are included carthage is more european

>>17818269
>Kerkouane
don't know much about the place, but unesco says "This Phoenician city was probably abandoned during the First Punic War (c. 250 B.C.) and as a result was not rebuilt by the Romans". and the place population was probably ~1200, mostly making purple dye from shellfish. the graves seem haphazard-ish, not much concern for order and as phoenicians were favoring of a cremation for themselves, i would treat those sequence results with some skepticism. burial seems placed as convenient for digging. could be mostly slaves in there.

>>17819192
See >>17819010, it was true for Carthage too

>>17819354
that's from a pile of data, the composition of which is unknown. it needs site analysis, stratification, cohort identification, curation. likely hard to do, perhaps it was done and we aren't provided that. but that looks like it's a bunch of their slaves. carthage apparently had a ~25% slave population. i think "they" would present more levant even if somewhat homogenized. but i sure wasn't there, in all cases - so i don't know what is what.

>>17816492 (OP)
Berbers and Semites are just mulatto animals. The elite were mostly Europeans, with some mixed outlier here and there.

>>17816492 (OP)
Lets just be honest, they were never semitic. They were a band of 150 Tyrians who fled with Queen Alissar and founded a village near a water source trading their royal treasures to put themselves on the map, rapidly they spent their wealth attractive hundreds perhaps thousands of Greeks, Romans, Iberians, Maurisians, and Sardinians, the chief stock of Carthage was always non-levantine. The counsel of ancient families were the ones able to trace their families back to the original however many fled Tyre (50-300). They would have contributed less than 1% of 1% to the genepool of a city that swelled to half a million.

>>17819554
>A bunch of slaves

Literally the only reason some Punics had Nafri dna is female sexual slavery. The only fully Nafris among Punics are all females and all the samples have non Nafri paternal linages. Your 20-30% African admixture simply makes you unable to create civilization.

>>17820292
Levantines were always 10% Negroid animals with low IQ. They never created anything.

The only smart Jews are the ones who mixed with Europeans. Palis are just bedouins mixed with Egyptian mulattos.

>>17820313
Sure

>>17816492 (OP)
>greek albanian bosnian sultan
dafuq

>>17816492 (OP)
Carthage was a stratified society, these Italian/Greek slaves were just that , Italian/Greek slaves, the Punic population itself was 100% Semitic.

>>17820313
"phoenicians" are not good people. they don't make, they take.
>>17820023
yes.

>>17820313
>Palis are just bedouins mixed with Egyptian mulattos.
Give the Palestinian Muslims some credit, they are indigenous and have more plausibly ancient Judean ancestry than any modern Jewish group other than Iraqi Jews. Were ancient Judeans known as cowardly effete pedophile money lenders or as insanely brave religious fanatics that suicidally fought foreign occupation regardless of the odds?

>>17816492 (OP)
>WE WUZ DA REEEL PHUNIZIANZ UND SCHEEEEEEEEEEEISSSSS

You cumskins are just bleached negroes it seems, no wonder your women love nigger dick so much

>>17816492 (OP)
A foe that was able to build a giant army, come up with competent strategies and swap fists with the strongest empire in the world, was actually white?
Wow, imagine my shock.

>>17820923
>100%
aye. and also you'll notice the phoenicians don't make, they take. infiltrate, undermine, seize a chokepoint, tax, divide, conquer, destroy, wipe from history seems to summarize the repeated approach.

>>17816492 (OP)
>This begs the question, just how culturally Semitic was Carthage?
I don't understand why this keeps coming up.
The Semites (if we go with the current meta that semite=jew) were never war-like people. Quite the contrary - they're scheemers, liars and merchants, but they will never take a shovel in their hand, nevermind a sword.

>>17816492 (OP)
When will those samples be avalible in Vahaduo/g25?

Daily reminder that archeologically we already knew this stuff and it isnt anything new. Haplofags are pathetic

>>17821875
already are
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0q39lrsynq7prjc7mm8gq/G25-Ancients.txt?rlkey=33i5tycf3nd6glv1w7z6dleco&e=1&st=tz5ppp6c&dl=0

>>17816492 (OP)
taleb btfo once again lmao

Taleb sisters...

>>17821956
check the carthage ones

>>17821884
wow thanks anon.

>>17816492 (OP)
I made a model for all Punic samples. I included all major genetic groups, so I believe it's quite accurate.

In short - it goes all over the place. There's 3 guys from northern Europe, many Iberians, some Grecco-Iberians, 4 guys who are majority African and 3 who are majority Palestinian.

>>17818269
They resemble very european according to your model, and i can see even some steppe ancestry, high enough to be noticed

>>17819010
>>17819010
Wait, carthage was european_like as Kerkouane was? They were basically southern Europeans? And what about me? Who i m?

>>17823074
Shitty model

>>17819554
You got btfo
another eurogod civilization

>>17823074
should use algeria Khenchela IA for berber admixture, not literal iberomaurusians

>>17824448
>And what about me? Who i m?
a proud nubian man?

>>17824471
>iberomaurusians
This sample aggregates everything African-related, and it being very old, makes it even better.

>>17821433
Only rednecks like jews

>>17824455
You can't be euro if you aren't in europe

>>17821865
Carthage was pagan so it deserved destruction anyway.
Anyone muslim who now lives in what was Carthage will never respect his ancestors because they were pagans. Every north african curses his ancestors for being pagan and hate Carthage.

So Carthage was white? North africans are happy about that, because they hate it.

did taleb say anyhting about this? Or does he keep larping as an italian?

>>17824452
shitty dataset, shitty processes. an agenda at work. it seems the phoenicians are among us. and decidedly un-european.

>>17824827
>an agenda at work.
Shut up kid.

>>17820628
Even within Aristotle's lifetime most of the Greeks would be reduced to subjection and slavery. He tutored one of the men responsible.

>>17824913
>responsible
involved. you may notice an uncanny mastery of logistics with each of the "great men".

>>17824959
And who exactly are the shadowy people you're implying to be truly behind the Macedonian pacification of Greece?