Muslims of /his/, what are you opinions on the Hadiths? Do you believe they are all verified or do you think they're all mostly faked for political reasonings?

Try asking Chinese people about Chinese. This is not the site to ask anything fiqh related. I would direct you to the book itself generally, and Wikipedia if you want details on sectarian practices.
Hi FBI

Some are real, some are fake. It's hard to really know. Sahih hadiths can be wrong, da'if hadiths could be true.
No hadith should be taken as absolute law. No hadith should be trusted blindly. Hadiths should be regarded as food for thought rather than absolute truth.

>>17850813 (OP)
isnad verification and grading is way better than just guesstimating the authenticity of a hadith as a 21st century random or worse, wholly rejecting all hadith

early muslims had a lively oral culture about the prophet, so they figured out a novel way to trace and evaluate oral sources

>>17850813 (OP)
I'm not a Muslim but Sahih are fake (the line of arrators was forged therefore it's so good) and Da'if are real (the line is genuine). The exact opposite of what the Muslims believe.

>>17851569
why's that?

>>17851573
Because as I said if you wanna make a Sahih hadith you gotta forge your sources. And Da'if ones are probably genuine in their origin (nobody would forge a "bad" chain of narrators).

>>17851555
Bruh, hadith literally got stories about magic and miracles in them
I'm super confident you'd be correct in guessing that they're made-up

Yeah, I don't get it

people making up stories > hadith scholars got some kind of method to verify the character of the people in the chain of transition, such that they wouldn't be liars + the actual stories they tell about walking rocks and whatnot are true

>>17851579
>probably genuine
And yet you phrased your earlier statement with such confidence.

Narrators back then knew each other. If you listened to A and B claimed to also listen to A, you can verify his narration from A, maybe he adds certain words, or maybe B never met A at all. This sort of situation is compounded as there are hundreds of thousands of narrators. So narrators who are in agreement to be meddling/misremembering their narrations, are classified as weak. Therefore any chain containing them are weak.

You are implying that a perfect well-known chain such as Yahya>Malik>ibn Shihab>Sa'id>Abu Hurayra is likely a forgery considering how perfect it is. You are essentially accusing the author of the compilation of forgery.

But you should know these compilations (Al-Adab Al-Mufrad, in this case) weren't written in a vacuum. Al-Bukhari(the author) had peers who would readily critique him if they(who we assume also heard from Yahya) never heard such a hadith. Al-Bukhari also heard the hadith from Ismail who heard from Malik, both well known scholars with many students. The hadith in question(Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 1317) also survives in Al-Muwatta(1647).

Considering all of this, how can you then say that a sahih hadith such as I've discussed is less authentic than a hadith transmitted by a known liar or a person with weak memory?

>>17851582
>Bruh, hadith literally got stories about magic and miracles in them
>I'm super confident you'd be correct in guessing that they're made-up
You weren't there, so how can you know for sure? Something being highly unlikely doesn't make it impossible

>>17851604
>Al-Bukhari(the author) had peers who would readily critique him
For some of the more famous compilations, there are works of mustakhraj which basically consist of contemporary or later hadith narrators offering alternative chains for hadith in such compilations to verify and support them

>>17851604
People just made up (forged) that the hadith was transmitted through like Abu Huraira or Aisha etc.. The "imperfect" narration chains suggest that it's based on real oral tradition that might go all the way to the person of Muhammad for example.

>>17851617
>People just made up (forged) that the hadith was transmitted through like Abu Huraira or Aisha etc
the word "People" here is very imprecise. Who is forging here?

>Al-Bukhari>Yahya>Malik>Ibn Shihab>Sa'id>Abu Hurayra
I've shown how Al-Bukhari probably heard the hadith from Yahya. Yahya, the well know student of Malik is also vindicated by Ismail, another famous student of Malik. Malik is the great Imam of the Maliki Madhhab, who also taught Al-Shafi'i among others, he was the author of Al-Muwatta which I believe has contemporaneous surviving manuscripts. It is well known that Malik studied from Ibn Shihab. Sa'id Ibn Al-Musayyib is the narrator who married Abu Hurayra's daughter to learn more hadith from him.

I'm pretty sure Juynbol casts doubt on Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri. He is what Juynbol calls a "common link". He is the source of many many hadith from countless narrators. He was also a court scholar of the Umayyads during the reign of 'Umar II. But why should this be any reason to doubt Ibn Shihab considering all *contemporary* muslim sources praised him? Why should we assume he forged the hadith?

Have you even considered what the text of this particular hadith is?
>The strong man is not he who throws his adversary to the ground, but it is he who controls himself when he is angry.

What reason would there be for Al-Zuhri, or Al-Bukhari or whoever to forged this? For the Umayyads? For clout? At what point does being critical turn into being needlessly skeptical?

>>17850813 (OP)
I'm on the same bandwagon as the Quranists

>>17850813 (OP)
Personally a Muslim should only follow the Quran and not the hadiths but saying that will get you ostracised from Muslim community

>Sunni Hadiths: Muhammad shat in this position so we must do it too!!!!
>Shia Hadiths: Ali said non-persians are subhuman scum

>>17850813 (OP)
>fanfiction becomes more popular than the established lore

>>17852022
I agree with you, only because the Hadiths have some of the most retarded shit written down on paper that has very little to do with the Quran itself

>>17850813 (OP)
They're heretical lies to be ignored at best

>namefag is a quranist
What an unexpected twist

>>17851527
why did allah permit the ummah to be flooded with fake hadith?

>>17851606
Good thing I'm not the one talking about things being impossible or not.
I don't know why you are whining about this, when I specifically use probabilistic terms.


I'm just not a gullible retard who believes in magic. Which is why I'm SUPER confident (but not 100% certain) that the stories with magic in them are made-up

They’re obviously fake stories. Anyone can say anything.

>Narrated by Qarqarah ibn Za‘zah,
>from Khushkhāsh ibn Mazqalah,
>from Abū ‘Ajalah ibn Kharbūsh,
>from Farfūr ibn Khanāfis,
>from Abū Nuqnūq ibn Bu‘būs,
>from Sa‘īd ibn Qurqūr,
>from the Messenger of Allah ﷺ, who said:

>If any of you urinates in the wind while wearing two sandals made of lizard hide, let him face the hill, for the devils flee from the smell of such urine as goats flee from a wolf. But whoever does the opposite upon him shall descend the madness of the tribe of Banū Su‘su‘ah

>>17852538
no person should be "super confident" of any history unless with well thought out reasons.

>>17853273
Any muhaddith or layman familiar with hadith would know that chain is made up, but that's today. if say Bukhari were to write this chain for a hadith in this book, his contemporaries would immediately question him on them never hearing of a companion called "Sa'id ibn Qurqur" or a fellow contemporary named "Qarqarah ibn Za'zah". They will ask where did they live, what year did they die, who else heard from them, so that they can verify the rest of the chain too.

It is well known in hadith methodology that unknown narrators weaken the chain. That is why the famous case of a hadith being narrated from a tabi'i straight from the Prophet(mursal) is considered weak. The Sahaba, who is the missing link, is unknown

>>17852058
Ahahahaha
>>17852187
Based Paki bro. Big fan of your works.

>>17854053
The ummah os his has to stand together always

Wasn’t there 2 different ages given to the marriage of aisha and fatima that we’re interchangeable on if it was a Sunni or Shia hadith, sunnis claiming aisha was married at 9 but Shias claiming 19 and the inverse for fatima to make them seem more pure

>>17853740
You're just changing the topic.
If someone tells a story about magic, that an excellent reason to asses them to be making stuff up.

What's most probable, a person with a good reputation making up stories, or, magic?

>>17852193
Because not allowing people to do evil would make their free will pointless.

>>17855886
It's not just one person though. There were 100,000 companions recorded, 4000 of them narrated hadith. Quite a large number testified to the miracles of the Prophet. Of course you could just dismiss all of these, I too dismiss the countless witnesses to the "Miracle of Fatima".

But there is an important distinction between Fatima and the Prophet. Fatima was a one off local event with no lasting consequences. The whole ordeal of the Prophet was many miracles spread out through 23 years. It resulted in the formation of a whole new ideology and empire, the extent of which was prophesized in hadith.

You could dismiss any of these through blanket judgements based on your heuristics. But a truly rational rejection of Islam either requires a systematic approach to disproving hadith methodology or a rigorous and demonstrable explanation for the 4000 companions all narrating such miraculous stories

>>17855862
i don't think there is a shia hadith saying A'isha was 19 during marriage. That's just modern shi'is saying that to score liberal points

>>17851582
so does the Quran itself tho
if you reject magic and miracles you might as well reject Islam as well.

>>17856518
>That's just modern shi'is saying that to score liberal points
They call her an evil witch whore. What kind of points are they scoring?

>>17856549
>They call her an evil witch whore
Not all shia do this

>>17852193
"And so We have made for every prophet enemies—devilish humans and jinn—whispering to one another with hadith of deception. Had it been your Lord’s Will, they would not have done such a thing. So leave them and their deceit" [6:112]

>>17851527
samefaggery against muzzies is hilarious lmao

>>17852022
Quranism is an heresy

When one sees the neatly laid out mosques and the devoted followers lined up praying, this is the Islam of the Koran, something larger than life influencing the world. But when they go back to their unkempt poverty home and underage cousin-wife, we see the Islam of the Hadiths, bereft of whatever higher meaning it may have once had and inspired so many long ago for forge empires, now reduced to a deranged cult putting a supernatural gloss on the OOGA BOOGA RAPE.

>>17850813 (OP)
They exist in a superposition of truth. They are entirely factual when discussed by fellow muslims but fake and gay when k*firs use them to make the prophet (pbuh) look like a spastic.

>>17856525
Yeah, sure. I think people should do that.

>>17857734
I mean I do too but you can't expect it to be disqualifying from a Muslim perspective

>>17857126
It's the only acceptable form of Islam, and the cure to Muslim nations.

>>17850813 (OP)
Did the world really need a final prophet to tell us to drink camel piss, make it legal to beat our wives, establish slavery as a universal legal institution and practice, and legalize having sex with prepubescent children?
Was all of this garbage really necessary?
REALLY
REALLY
REALLY
ABSOLUTELY
VITAL
AND
NECESSARY?
Would the world be worse if no one ever engaged in any of those actions/activities, let alone codified them into law for all humanity?

>>17858928
what's with these low iq nothingburger posts? dead internet theory? my effortposting itt is going to waste

>>17850813 (OP)
Hadith that make me feel good: True.

Hadith that portray Islam as a violent, disgusting, pedophilic and barbaric: false.

>>17857703
Did he ever explain the reason behind people painting those pictures receiving the severest of punishments?

>>17859737
>'Aishah reported: Messenger of Allah ﷺ returned once from a journey, and saw a curtain which I had hung along a platform with some pictures on it. The colour of his face changed. He tore it up and said, "O 'Aishah, the most tormented people on the Day of Resurrection are those who contend with Allah in terms of creation" (Riyadh as-Salihin 649)
Because it contends with God's creation

>>17859737
>>17859768
>It was narrated from `Abdullah ibn `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Those who make images will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them: `Bring to life that which you have created.’” (Narrated by Al-Bukhari, 5607 and Muslim, 2108)

>>17859694
All hadiths are lies

Majority of Muslims follow them and this is why Allah is punishing us

>>17859888
Look, Allah got a superpower to always get what he wants
You seriously think he would fail in his goals when sending us prophets?

>>17859737
Mohammed was an incredibly petty man so the answer is probably that a curtain salesman vaguely insulted him once

>>17861913
just making shit up now

>>17862305
Not too far fetched, its why he hated poetry after all.

>>17862397
>he hated poetry
Abu Huraira reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The most truthful word ever spoken by an Arab poet is the saying of Labid: Everything besides Allah is in vain.” Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2256

Shurayh said, "I ask 'A'isha, may Allah be pleased her with, 'Did the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, recite any poetry?' She said, 'He used to recite some of the poetry of 'Abdullah ibn Rawaha. (Adab Al-Mufrad 867)

Umar came over Hassan while reciting poetry inside the mosque and looked at him sternly, then he (Hassan) said: "I used to recite poetry inside it (the mosque) in the presence of one who is more pious than you [i.e. the Prophet (ﷺ)]". [Agreed upon] (Bukhari 3212)

Narrated 'Abdullah:
that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed in some poetry there is wisdom" (Tirmidhi 2844)

It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Al-Musayyab said: "Umar passed by Hassan bin Thabit while he was reciting poetry in the Masjid, and glared at him. He said: 'I recited poetry when there was someone better than you in the Masjid.' Then he turned to Abu Hurairah and said: 'Did you not hear the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) when he said: "Answer back on my behalf. O Allah, help him with the Holy Spirit!'" He said: 'Yes, by Allah.'" (An-Nasa'i 716)

>>17862567
Yeah and then poets started taking the piss out him and he ordered hits on them lol