Why is it today when the multi-ethnic heritage of the nation of Greece is brought up, droves of academics, hellenophiles, and Greeks themselves will do everything in their power to stifle it?

>>17852455 (OP)
How did he know this all the way back then?

>>17852511

The people that preserved any idea or history about Greece were in the west and upon arrival noticed different people speaking different things and it being not like what history says.

>>17852511
By the 1800s you had plenty of sources of slavic settlement everywhere, it only gets muddied by post Greek indepdence nationalism that wanted undo the slavic presence there.

I'm pretty sure macedonian greeks are identical genetically to Macedonians slavs.

>>17852455 (OP)
We used to uncritically accept retarded wignat cope that modern Greeks were le browned by Turks and ancient Greeks were le nordic.

Now we know for fact european blood made the Greeks retarded.

>>17852733
Modern Greeks inbred and mixed with near eastern populations.

The language bringers of the Greeks were nordic and took their civilization to the next steppe.

Minoans who (AREN'T GREEK") aren't even a fraction as significant as the Macedonians who were balkaners.

>>17852455 (OP)
Because if they admitted it they'd recognise that Albanians who said Greece is fake country created by the British and all "ancient greek" bs is actually ancient Albanian were correct and they are afraid to do so after authoritatively believing greece before 1820 existed for 200 years.

>>17852751
>Modern Greeks inbred and mixed with near eastern populations.
Modern Greeks have more European admixture than Near Eastern, retard.

>The language bringers of the Greeks were nordic
No, they weren't.

>Macedonians who were balkaners.
Macedonian samples cluster with modern Greeks and Italians, not Balkaners.

>>17853916
Ancient Greeks were black like black hole and sucked the light out of the atmosphere which is why they built buildings from marble. Only centuries of bleaching by albanians during the long reign of Albanian Empire(circa 1 AD to 1918) made them look like only slightly blacker turks.

>>17854041
Ancient Greek BBC fucked too many white women

>>17852680
They aren't exactly, Macedonian Slavs are more Slavic, but Macedonian Greeks are among the most Slavic of Greeks. Thracians are still more Slavic though and basically Bulgarians.

>>17852455 (OP)
>For not a singledrop of real pure Hellenic blood flows in the veins of theChristian population of modern Greece.
Ah yes, the "genetic replacement" fallacy again.
If foreign ethnicities are introduced, the local population doesn't disappear - it's diluted.

Modern Greeks are about a third Classical Greek - details in pic. rel.

>>17854104
>>17852455 (OP)
And here's how it was done in the past:

>>17854108
>G25
BA Anatolia and Levant are not that close on SmartPCA. This is a G25 problem.

>>17854104
You’re right about how admixing works but this model isn’t good and G25 isn’t trustworthy and especially so for Greece and West Asia. Levant related admixture much too high for one.

>>17854122
>BA Anatolia and Levant are not that close on SmartPCA. This is a G25 problem.

Maybe you confused the samples. Turkey went through a genetic shift as well, from the Levant, to being their own thing (likely due to Iranian admixture).

You also have to look at the scale of the PCA charts to evaluate the actual distance.

>G25 isn’t trustworthy and especially so for Greece and West Asia. Levant related admixture much too high for one.

Do you have other PCA models where south-eastern Greece is shown? Because you might be looking at Greek averages, or Thessaly.

>>17853916
Macedonians are close to North Italians, Albanians, and Northern Greeks all who are descendant from balkaners+higher steppe.


Not to mention the Cetina culture and how there’s a genetic continuity from Dalmatia to the North Aegean.

>>17852751
No, Greek language came with brown half churka Yamnaya, and historical Greeks were brown J2 ANF with minor yamnaya and iran_n admixture.

>>17854104
>>17854108
Here's the entire thread about the Greek genetic history:

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17717684

>>17854073
>Ancient Greek BBC fucked too many white women
More like the chad Greek fucked the local Pelasgian Farmer women, resulting in the Classical Period population.

Similar how in Spain 100% of the male lineage was replaced with the introduction of the Steppe people.

>>17855800
Bell Beaker pussy got fucked by chad Greeks. That's why Ancient Greeks are J2.

Iberian cucks got fucked by Bell Beakers (and many others). That's why Iberians aren't I2 anymore.

>>17852733
>We used to
Who's "we"? It's hard to imagine that anyone not already subscribing to nordicist theories would assume that a nation/culture originating at the southeasternmost part of Europe and expanding its influence around the Mediterranean and Black Sea were somehow Nordic, particularly when sources of that era seem to describe a mostly Mediterranean-looking population
>>17852751
Mixing with Near Eastern populations happened between Antiquity and the High Middle Ages, not in Modern times, and its significance is exaggerated. The proto-Greek language originated in the Southern Balkans, nowhere near the Nordic region.
>>17852553
Wrong all around, plus anyone expecting absolutely no change in over 2000 years is delusional
>>17852455 (OP)
I don't think you understand what ethnic composition of a country means. The actual composition of the population of Greece in the early modern era can be described as: vast majority Greek of various subgroups (often mixed with each other, especially in bigger cities, to the point of just "Greek" being the only applicable term), minorities of Turks (of various subgroups), Jews (mainly Sephardic and Romaniote), Gypsies, Bulgarians, Pomaks, Slavomacedonians, Albanians, Armenians and the occasional Westerner, Russian, Arab, etc. with most non-Greeks living near the borders.
Greeks having absorbed some Slavs in different amounts doesn't make them different ethnicities if there are no associated and statistically significant differences in national consciousness, culture, association and reproduction patterns with other groups, and so on. At most, you could make an argument that some of the most divergent subgroups of Greeks are actually "ethnic" groups with "Greeks" being a supra-ethnic nation, but I think such a distinction should only be made when the groups in question actually differ significantly, with the lines dividing them being fairly abrupt, which is certainly not the case here.

>>17854086
Historically, Thracian Greeks having more Slavic admixture than inland Macedonian Greeks doesn't make sense considering density of Slavic toponyms, number of Slavic-speaking locals in modern times, areas of Imperial Byzantine control vs. tribal Slavic and later Bulgarian, Serbian rule, migration patterns and so on. I think that the reason Thracian Greeks are more Slavic-like has to do with their basis (ancient population) being Thracian+Greek mix (thus more "Northern" than other Greeks) as well as later migrations from the North and perhaps Byzantine mercenaries. More recent mixing with Bulgarians is also a possibility (likewise might be part of the reason why eastern Bulgarians are more Mediterranean than their western compatriots) but I doubt it is the major reason
TL;DR I think that the models presented showcasing modern Greeks as a three-way mix between three very homogenous components (Ancient Greek, Anatolian/Near Eastern, Slavic) are reductive oversimplifications that can lead to conclusions that are faulty if not backed by other evidence

>>17852511
Pretty sure there were isolated Slavic-speaking villages in places like Epirus and Thessaly late into the ottoman period, wouldn't be hard to draw conclusions knowing that.

>>17852511
>know
It's a hypothesis based on historical sources from the Middle Ages, toponyms and linguistic elements in 19th-century Greece and some dubious associations of certain facial features (e.g. shape of eyelashes) with ceartain ethnic groups

>>17854086
>Thracians are still more Slavic though and basically Bulgarians.
Source for this? A lot of Greeks in Western Thrace are recent Anatolian refugees. Also, the Slavic invasions barely affected Thrace, Bulgarians only became demographically dominant there around the 14th to 17th centuries.
>>17855934
>More recent mixing with Bulgarians is also a possibility (likewise might be part of the reason why eastern Bulgarians are more Mediterranean than their western compatriots)
Yeah that's bullshit, the most genetically "med"-like Bulgarians are southwesterners (Macedonians).

>>17855832
>That's why Ancient Greeks are J2.
One, the J2 haplo has a J2b sub-group, which is native to Europe, and secondly - there's also E-V13 and R1b-Z2103, and those 3 were most likely the Ancient Greek haplos.

>>17855977
Natives of Southeastern Bulgaria are more "Med" than natives of Southwestern Bulgaria. The people of North Macedonia are a young nation of mixed origins, I don't count them as Bulgarians. Actual Bulgarians from Macedonia (traditionally and currently identifying as such) can also have some Greek admixture (and Greeks from those parts of Macedonia can have some Bulgarian)

>>17855977
This map seems to use "Pomak" too broadly/liberally, as "Muslim speaking a southeast Slavic language/dialect". Pomaks are from the Rhodope mountain chain and surroundings

>>17852733
TRVTH NUKE THAT /HIS/ WON'T LIKE!

>>17857474
>Natives of Southeastern Bulgaria are more "Med" than natives of Southwestern Bulgaria.
And your proof for that is? If you say "because uhhh I think they look that way" I will laugh in your face.
>The people of North Macedonia are a young nation of mixed origins, I don't count them as Bulgarians.
"Source: I made it the fuck up" aside, they're still a good proxy for southwestern Bulgarians because of physical proximity and historical migration trends to southwestern Bulgaria.

>There was a bunch of Slavs that didn't fall into Bulgarian or Serbian category (Pomaks, Macedonians etc,)
>These slavs settle in Greece during periods where it was depopulated and mixed with the locals (take on Macedonian identity)
>Centuries later when the West forges a new Greek identity for the hellenic rebirth they don't like that the actual descendants and owners of the region are majority slav
>ethnic cleansing of Aegean macedonia
>Replacement with Anatolian Greek population swaps

Bulgarians and Macedonians are about the same level of paleo balkan percentages, from which groups they descend it varies by their region. Macedonians also had a lot of mixture with proto- and modern Albanians that add to that.

Modern Greeks now are mixed to all hell with 6 different ethnic groups, to the point where balkan greeks on their ancestry will get middle eastern ass results.

>>17857884
>Source
Various results and studies I've seen, most recently this one: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.70037
Someone posted the converted G25 coordinates, I ran them, observed that (South)Eastern, as well as some Central, Bulgarians are more likely to score higher percentages of ANF and lower EuroHG and Steppe. The difference is minor, but it's there statistically, and in line with personal results I've seen posted here and there (yeah, yeah, anecdotal evidence and all that)
Unfortunately, SW Bulgaria is one of the most underrepresented regions, more samples would always be welcome

>>17858092
Rather:
Slavic tribes settle all over the Balkans except some isolated parts of Greece and maybe small strips of land of coastal Albania. These Slavs gradually mix with the natives (mainly Greek and/or Latin-speaking), especially after converting to Christianity. The mixed people living in areas where Greek is the dominant language become Greek-speaking, the ones in areas where Slavic language is dominant become Slavic-speaking. Most of Macedonia changes hands frequently, until it is conquered by the Ottomans. During the following centuries, religion is the main defining feature of various groups, with linguistic affinities being more fluid, and often dependent more on social context than ethnic identity. Come the 19th century, Bulgarians found their own branch of the Orthodox church and use the argument of language to bring Slavic-speaking (incl. bilingual) villagers closer to them, along with promises of freeing all Christians from Ottoman yoke to get broader support, and start sending agents to Macedonia aiming to that aim. Of course, this was really an intermediate stage before attempting to Bulgarize the region's Orthodox population as a whole. Greeks caught wind of that and started sending their own agents to remind local Christians (of all linguistic groups) of their regional history and prolonged loyalty to a cultural sphere most closely associated with Greece, also employing the help of priests who didn't want the Patriarchate of Constantinople to lose its influence in the region. Serbs also tried to convince the Slavic-speaking population of the region that they are Serbs, reminding them of the importance of Macedonia to Stefan Dusan and other medieval Serbian rulers. All this, in a region where multiple languages where spoken, led to part of the population changing national identities frequently, with some of them identifying regionally (Macedonian) rather than nationally (Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, ...).

>>17854108
When are you going to read 1 (one) paler?

>>17854108
Read 1 paper. It's annoying to me now.

>>17858182
Any paper you read would reflect the picture he posted

>>17854104
Are you retarded? How does being a third of something not imply muddying of the initial race?

>>17858261
That Classical Greeks looked like Macedonians? He cherry-picks and doesn't seem to look into what literally any other person is saying about it, including experts, including people running stats that are way more telling than cherrypicked PCAs. Which is based, I'm not going to lie. That is based.

>>17858315
He's focused on making pretty confirmation bias PCAs and not even remotely considering evidence that's readily and easily available to look at now. And completely confident and presenting it as gospel. Absolutely enraging. And based.

>>17854104
This model is in no way capable of determining the percentage of classical Greek ancestry. It doesn't even have a classical-era sample from Greece proper, it doesn't have any kind of NE European/Balto-Slavic source, it mixes together samples from various periods, some of which are unlikely to have any significant direct contribution and are rather indicative of tendencies/shifts in certain directions, plus I'm pretty sure some of those samples are on a continuum, with some of the analyzed populations getting more of the "extremes" and some more of the "intermediate". All of this makes it seem like modern Greeks are to a very large extent descended from Illyrians/Moesians (Serbia_LBA), with such a massive migration not having been recorded.

>>17858261
It would also reflect a fairly huge pull toward the eastern mediterranean, and it would show the continuation of Southern Greek ancestry well into the Classical Period, not this steady pull toward Macedonia and then Balkan populations. This is easily seen just using vahaduo with proper and relevant ancient samples. He doesn't understand what he's doing yet.

>>17858126
>Various results and studies I've seen, most recently this one: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.70037
I'm the one who posted that study on /his/.
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17790416/#q17792183
Central-Western Bulgarians (from around Kyustendil, Sofia, Tran, Osogovo, Blagoevgrad, etc...) are the "med"-shifted ones. These are the Bulgarians with the greatest linguistic affinity to the Struma Valley (SW Bulgaria) and the Macedonia region. It corroborates the pie chart indicating Macedonian Pomaks have smaller amounts of Slavic ancestry, no? There are also proto-Albanian toponyms in SC Bulgaria so again, linguists are in line with geneticists. SE (Thracian Valley) Bulgarians cluster closest to their Rhodope and Central (Balkan Mountain) counterparts, which makes sense considering that Rhodope and Balkan dialects extend into the Thracian Plain + Strandzha-Sakar range (SE Bulgaria). In fact, SE Bulgarians plot closer to NW Bulgarians than even SC Bulgarians do.
https://ibl.bas.bg/interaktivna-dialektna-karta-na-balgarskiya-ezik/

Also, you're vastly underestimating how endogamous Bulgarian communities in Thrace were to assume they have recent Greek ancestry. The Thracian hinterland was a depopulated wasteland during the late Middle Ages, most Bulgarians are late arrivals from the 15th to 17th centuries who hardly encountered a native population to assimilate. Today, the area is a patchwork of different dialects reflecting the migrants' places of origin because they rarely intermarried even with fellow Slavic-speakers. On that topic, a small area of SE Bulgaria (the western area of Strandzha) was settled by migrants from Kyustendil during the 1500's, which could explain "med"-shifted outliers. I could dig up my sources for most of this info but it would be a gigantic waste of my time to do that on the shittiest least serious board on all of 4chan. This is already much more of an effortpost than this place deserves.

>>17858126
>Various results and studies I've seen, most recently this one: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.70037
I'm the one who posted that study on /his/.
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17790416/#q17792183
Central-Western Bulgarians (from around Kyustendil, Sofia, Tran, Osogovo, Blagoevgrad, etc...) are the "med"-shifted ones. These are the Bulgarians with the greatest linguistic affinity to the Struma Valley (SW Bulgaria) and the Macedonia region. It corroborates the pie chart indicating Macedonian Pomaks have smaller amounts of Slavic ancestry, no? There are also proto-Albanian toponyms in CW Bulgaria so again, linguists are in line with geneticists. SE (Thracian Valley) Bulgarians cluster closest to their Rhodope and Central (Balkan Mountain) counterparts, which makes sense considering that Rhodope and Balkan dialects extend into the Thracian Plain + Strandzha-Sakar range. In fact, SE Bulgarians plot closer to NW Bulgarians than even CW Bulgarians do.
https://ibl.bas.bg/interaktivna-dialektna-karta-na-balgarskiya-ezik/

Also, you're vastly underestimating how endogamous Bulgarian communities in Thrace were to assume they have recent Greek ancestry. The Thracian hinterland was a depopulated wasteland during the late Middle Ages, most Bulgarians are late arrivals from the 15th to 17th centuries who hardly encountered a native population to assimilate. Today, the area is a patchwork of different dialects reflecting the migrants' places of origin because they rarely intermarried even with fellow Slavic-speakers. On that topic, a small area of SE Bulgaria (the western part of Strandzha) was settled by migrants from Kyustendil during the 1500's, which could explain "med"-shifted outliers. I could dig up my sources for most of this info but it would be a gigantic waste of my time to do that on the shittiest least serious board on all of 4chan. This is already much more of an effortpost than this place deserves.

>>17856946
Most ancient Greeks had J2a, not J2b.
Classical Greeks were literally just Pelasgians/Anatolians with minor IE admixture.