Thread 17858049

what does /his/ think about the indigenous critique theory?

In the Dawn of Everything, Wengrow and Graeber argue that the European Enlightenment was, in many ways, started by Native American philosophers criticizing European customs. They bring up the example of Kondiaronk, a Native Chief, who conducted a series of interviews in which he laid out his view on white customs and society. This apparently was widely read in Europe and inspired people like Rousseau.

like whats one example? did the meeting with the north american natives get Europeans to bathe more regularly ?

>>17858049 (OP)
The thinkers of the Enlightenment were inspired by ancient Greece and Rome, no doubt more than by Amerindian tribes.

>>17858054
Lahontan/Kondiaronk dialogues between a Frenchman and a Wendat. Cover issues of crime and punishment, money and, importantly, for the argument, freedom.

>Over and over I have set forth the qualities that we Wendat believe ought to define humanity – wisdom, reason, equity, etc. – and demonstrated that the existence of separate material interests knocks all these on the head. A man motivated by interest cannot be a man of reason

>All these would be rather trivial concerns had Lahontan’s books not been so successful; but they were to have an enormous impact on European sensibilities. Kandiaronk’s opinions were translated into German, English, Dutch and Italian, and continued in print, in multiple editions, for over a century. Any self-respecting intellectual of the eighteenth century would have been almost certain to have read them

>>17858049 (OP)
>Graeber
Why would I take seriously any theory or philosophy put forth by a fucking anarchist?

>>17858049 (OP)
>be me, a teen
>read Graeber's Debt: the first 5000 years
>think it's the coolest shit ever, explains everything
>actually start studying history
>realize how much of it is just him pushing his anarchy bullshit
I can see it being influenced by contact with the Natives, but *started*? That's a blatantly bullshit premise

>>17858075
>of the eighteenth century
Enlightenment began in the late 1500's under the cloak of theological debate though

>>17858157
>realize how much of it is just him pushing his anarchy bullshit

not an argument. Describing FACTS about human societies is not pushing anything. The state form is a historical form not a naturalised one, so why would you be against people studying societies that don't have states?

>actual thread on historical theory
>no one cares, just want to shitpost about atheists and christcucks

why is this board so midwitted compared to /sci/?

>>17859956
>religion threads
Zoomers from twitter arguing over their surrogate father figure YouTubers with 300 followers.
>atheism threads
Mexicans who recently got an iPhone with internet access and think it's still 2008 in the first world.

That pretty much covers it.

>>17858049 (OP)
it's true but not just Americans (as I think the Dawn of Everything mentions, but if not, plenty of other works will).
The big stimulus for the enlightenment was Euros traveling abroad and seeing other societies they were conquering andd how they worked, the ideal of meritocracy came directly from Confucian thought

>>17858049 (OP)
It's jews and feather indians we wuzzing despite enlightenment originating completely with anglos and french huguenots
>>17860003
Wrong
Medieval England was a meritocratic society
stop wewuzzing

>>17858569
>The state form is a historical form not a naturalised one, so why would you be against people studying societies that don't have states?
Why do anarcucks pretend stateless peoples are anarchists?
Why do anarcucks pretend the inhabitants of zomia are anarchists when they have hierarchy?

>>17858569
>Describing FACTS
Except that isn't what he does, faggot. He has a clear narrative that he's trying to shoehorn into these "facts" that he just so happens to present in a linear way to support said narrative.
Tell me you haven't even read the book in question without telling me

>>17859956
/sci/ has a higher standard by definition. If some retard makes a thread claiming the sky is blue because of the way neutrons react or something it would gain mo traction because everyone knows it's horseshit. On /his/ we have retards who say the most blatantly ahistorical shit you'll ever see and the other retards flock to it like flies to fresh shit out of a horses ass because discussing *actual history* requires effort that no one at /his/ is willing to put in. This board is also unironically the schizo holding pen for anyone who escapes /x/

>>17858049 (OP)
>indigenous critique
what is with this BS about brown savages being intelectuals? they were literally running around doing rape and murder, kidnapping whites whenever they could, and transmitting diseases everywhere while acting like some species of monkey in the wilderness

>>17860158
Go back the the res, spear chucker.

>>17860214
Move out of your parents house, NEET

>>17860229
Why did the "wise" natives trade their land and daughters for beads and whiskey?

>>17860232
because they couldn't have possibly predicted the future given their material conditions at the time, however snowtroons are doing the same right now for a line that goes up and they're doing nothing but seething impotently on internet forums

>>17860232
I'm not OP, retard. I just get a laugh out of you NEET chuds trying to larp

>>17858049 (OP)
>inspired people like Rousseau
Rousseau is literally the foundation of leftism with his belief we are all tabula rasa clean slates and went from innocent naturally good "noble savages" to malicious white devils due to civilization, which must be upturned to restore this utopia. Of course those evils were just at home among the Huron as among the white man, as evidenced by Kondiaronk's desire to raid and pillage the Iroquois.

>The great Lords, that you call Happy, lie expos'd to Disgrace from the King, to the detraction of a thousand sorts of Persons, to the loss of their Places, to the Contempt of their Fellow Courtiers; and in a word, their soft Life is thwarted by Ambition, Pride, Presumption and Envy. They are Slaves to their Passions, and to their King, who is the only French Man that can be call'd Happy, with respect to that adorable Liberty which he alone enjoys. There's a thousand of us in one Village, and you see that we love one another like Brethren; that whatever any one has is at his Neighbour's Service; that our Generals and Presidents of the Council have not more Power than any other Huron; that Detraction and Quarreling were never heard of among us; and in fine, that every one is his own Master, and do's what he pleases, without being accountable to another, or censur'd by his Neighbour. This, my dear Brother, is the difference between us and your Princes, Dukes, &c. And if those great Men are so Unhappy, by consequence, those of inferiour Stations must have a greater share of Trouble and perplexing Cares.

Kondiaronk therefore must have been a genius, more subversive than even the most kafkaesque pilpul of the most wily jews, sitting in his forest, 1000s of miles from Europe, he sowed the seeds of the white man's eventual descent into decadence, complacency and degeneracy. After all it was not rebellions that saw the end of colonialism, rather Europeans electing socialists and progressives and voluntarily granting them independence.

>>17860270
Nobody wants gorillions of brown and black thirdies to invade their nations. Nobody voted for that and nobody ever will.

>>17860277
What exactly do you get out of lying? I am personally wealthy, white, and highly educated.

>>17860303
Lying about what?
>I am... """highly educated"""
You've yet to show it

>>17860057
I think there is a sense of anarchism as the modern western concept which basically amounts to kids reading bakunin and arguing with leninists on leftypol.

But I've always though the 'anarchism' as described by Scott was more of a actually existing tendancy of societies to evade the state. I don't think he's saying they are implementing utopia, just that they are technically anarchists because they don't cling to the state form

>>17860320
Yeah, highly educated. I am probably the smartest person you will ever interact with, especially if you aren't white.

>>17860303
>highly educated.

proof it by responding intelligently to Graeber and Wenrow's indigenous critique then.

>>17860333
Already did >>17860232
The idea that non whites could have any meaningful critique of white civilization is pants-on-head retarded.

>17860332
>17860348
>muh Hwites
Brainrotted /pol/tranny alert. You have no individual achievements so you put everything on the genetic lottery of being born """white""" to cope with your failings as a person. You're literally we wuzzing, faggot.
Prove me wrong, I'll wait

>>17860370
>You have no individual achievements
? I am personally wealthy, white, and highly educated. Your sad attempt to imply people should not be proud of or identify with their people is highly rediculous, especially because you only ever try to stop whites from doing it.

>>17860378
>their people
Doesn't exist
>rediculous
kek
>wwwaaahhhh I've made it up in my head that I'm the only one being persecuted wwwaaaaaahhhh
You're right, anon, you are definitely white because only white people are this pathetically insecure.

>>17860396
I'm sorry brownoid, but you can't stop us whites from having an affinity for eachother over your foreign and deleterious kind.

>>17860402
>deleterious
Whites are their own harbingers of destruction.

>>17860441
I'd say that brown mixed race people are. Whenever a critical mass of them occurs, their host civilization always fails. Rome, egypt, etc., for examples.

>>17860445
>regurgitating memes
Yeah, you're """highly edcuated""" alright

>>17860450
Don't worry, we are about to witness the full collapse of several European nations due to a critical mass of brownoids. It's been long enough since the fall of Rome that you can laugh it off as rediculous, but there will be no denials once France and Britain collapse.

>>17860299
native americans fought and died for their land meanwhile snowtroons straight up worship blacks and don't do anything but bitch from their basements about mexican immigrants which are already like 50% of the newborns in the US, if you don't fight something you want it at that point

>>17860294
Absolute kinography.
I'm basically an American old west cavalry officer when you think about it.

>>17860541
nta but my thing is more jeets. I don't like what Mexicans have done to our labor market in some trades (brick masonry actually improved a bit lel) but no one is upset over spic berrypickers. All of that is propped up by political leverage especially in California where automation is prohibited, some states it's totally automated right now. It was the mass influx of jeets and like, random Africans and Haitians getting CDLs that rustled my jimmies. And also someone from Ecuador or something running over a kid.

>>17860541
That's some gay nigger bullshit. Whites are too nice and in denial about the problem but they won't be able to deny it soon enough.

>>17860593
>but they won't be able to deny it soon enough.
because they're old fucks unable to do jackshit about it anyways

>>17860635
Sorry but you're going in the oven on the day of judgement.

>>17860562
Due to our pathetic birth rates, if they are not our people, having a long-term familial origin in the United States, then they shouldn't be here. Full-stop.

>>17860641
not gonna happen faggot, and even jews are gonna outlive whites at this point lol pathetic

>>17860550
No, you`re not.

>>17858049 (OP)
>This apparently was widely read in Europe and inspired people like Rousseau.
Evidence?

>>17860232
It's patently absurd and always the result of exuberant 20th century fictionalizing.

>>17860721
Jews were already exterminated in the classical period. You're talking about neo rabbinic LARPers.

>>17860756
Source?

>>17860721
All non whites would starve to death in three months if their free gibs got shut off. I am unconcerned about your odds.

>>17860770
by that logic half of europe isn't white since medjeets are all african and arab rapebabies (and you'd be correct)

>>17860792
>All
retarded snowtranny fantasy, daily reminder that snowtroons all have below replacement fertility and are once again killing each other in the hundreds of thousands in ukraine as we speak

>>17860819
>fertility rates
Don't matter. The only threat to the existence of whites is non whites on their lands.

>>17860847
whites are pretty much the number 1 threat to the existence of whites because they're retarded snowniggers that love killing each other in pointless wars + they're cucks that submit to brown immigrants

>>17860348
So basically you ignore the evidence and just have your fingers in your ears saying la la la I can't hear you

>>17860757
It's literally in the book. Type in Dawn of Everything pdf and read it for yourself also here >>17858075

>>17860232
They were wise enough to not view their baby makers as equals

>>17860897
Well that was a load of nogroid homosexual bullshit. I don't know if it worth explaining any of why you're retarded since you probably wo t understand anyway. What you should know though, if anything, is that the only threat to the existence of whites is non whites on their lands. That's literally the only thing that can ever pose any long term threat to their existence.

>>17860923
Name one thing white people love more than shipping hordes of niggers into their nice white countries

>>17858049 (OP)
Started is a bit of a strong word, the intellectual tradition was going somewhere around there with or without outside input. Though I personally think saying it was influential is not beyond the pale.
He is over-exaggerating for political purposes, but I would not say he was wrong at it's core.

>>17860931
Who said they love that?

>>17860935
Why would they insist on doing it if they didn't love it?

>>17860923
>>17860935
white people quite literally and unironically worship blacks, they put them in sports, music, movies, video games, porn, fashion, they pimp white women to niggers, they love shipping boat loads of niggers into their countries, they adopt nigger culture, they sexually fetishize niggers and export nigger worship to the rest of the world, snowtroons are a niggerfied race of cucks

>>17860960
Who said they insisted on it?

>>17860967
You have to be retarded to think the propaganda media is an organic reprentation of typical preferences.

>>17860975
pathetic excuse, really hope the Israel shit escalates so white faggots from the US are sent to die once again

>>17860970
I did can you not read nigger

>>17861042
>>17860975
This Nigger is in dire need of a breaking

>>17860932
I think that's fair, but it is interesting how mainstream auto-narratives of the Enlightenment have downplayed the influence of native Americans, Arab and Indian worlds and instead exaggerated the Greeks and Romans to give the impression that this was a 'white' movement.

>>17860975
well, it works, nearly every zoomer speaks in african american vernacular now

I can believe that, even tribals are wiser than Abrahamics.

>>17859956
>redskin makes multiple threads bitching about white people and how much he personally hates thim
>"why is this board so simple minded?"
>doesn't know /his/ is botted to hell
dumb

>>17860770
so, by your "theory" actual jews were exterminated, then some unrelated group of people got up and said "you know what, we'll pretend to be the actual jews"?

>>17862820
If you dig deep into the study of comparative mythology you will come to one inescapable conclusion, what the jew mythological framework calls the chosen people is in fact the group that is what colloquially referred to as whites.

>>17862820
If you dig deep into the study of comparative mythology you will come to one inescapable conclusion, what the jew mythological framework calls the chosen people is in fact the group that is colloquially referred to as whites.

>>17862839
>if you dig into lunatic bullshit
answer my question: what are the logistical details of imposter jews replacing actual jews? how did this happen? some group decided that from tomorrow they'll keep kosher etc?

>>17860330
Anarchism does not mean stateless and anarcucks need to stop pretending stateless societies are anarchist ones
The people of zomia are hierarchical tribal societies that rape women, fight in tribal wars and engage in ritualistic headhunting, they are not le based egalitarian anarchists in any way

>>17862820
>>17862839
>>17861538
>>17861042
>>17861000
>>17860975
Can you take this off topic shitting somewhere else please? Why can't a mod

>>17862901
>le based egalitarian anarchists

who said they were and why is that the only definition of anarchism? It's been a while since I've read him, but if James Scott defined them as utopian, then he would be misled.

>>17862979
>anarchism
Stateless, egalitarian, socially progressive society. Which is what the people of Zomia are not.
If any stateless society is anarchistic then 90% of societies that ever existed were anarchists.
Imagine if i used the term "fascist society" not to mean societies that followed the nationalistic, third position ideologies that arose after ww1 but instead any nationalistic society and applied the term fascist to all nationalistic regimes on Earth
That's what scott did in his shitty book.
The people of zomia aren't anarchists. simple as

>>17858049 (OP)
I've never heard of this theory, sounds interesting. Any books on this topic?

Contemporary reinterpretations like The Dawn of Everything might be pushing a politically motivated revisionism that downplays European agency or oversimplifies complex historical interactions.

Leftists:
>and that’s why you should dismantle White civilization because of some literal who savage brown ape

>>17858049 (OP)
That sounds awfully bogus but I own the book so maybe ill read it just for this

>>17858569
Anarchism is a very unstable political system and as Elite theory explains will always revert to oligarchy. That's why men like Proudhon ended up embracing federalism later.

MODS=GODS. They actually deleted the polspam

>>17863895
The Dawn Of Everything

>>17864979
> a politically motivated revisionism

The authors themselves would likely not disagree with you. They would say that the mainstream view that the Enlightenment values was a hermetically sealed European project was also politically motivated in that it helped provide the justification for colonialism, and in modern times things like the Iraq war (under the guise of liberation)

>that downplays European agency

Not sure what you mean here. Wengrow and Graeber, if anything, are increasing European agency by showing how they intellectually engaged with, and took seriously the american intellectuals.

>or oversimplifies complex historical interactions.

Are they not making it more complex?

>>17865339
>They actually deleted the polspam
you mean your residential school thread? hypocrite