Thread 17858492

>We don’t worship Mary, we just venerat-ACK
There is no difference between veneration and worship. Just admit that you worship someone who is not Christ

>>17858492 (OP)
Who cares. Protestants don't worship God either. They worship white people.

>>17858492 (OP)
Holy shit... guess how I know you're an atheist. You can't even differentiate words.

because you only venerate god so veneration seems like worship

>>17858492 (OP)
They never will. It is their true religion.

>*throws coins at the feet of a giant statue surrounded by gold embroidery*
>dear saint guisseppe please perform this miracle for me-I mean uhh, please ask god to perform this miracle for me through you!
>no you don't get it, I'm not REALLY praying to a golden idol of a worldly person, its just making me REFLECT on how PERFECT they are!
>woah, a stain in the shape of the virgin mary! Mary must have created this to show her divinity! Oh uhh I mean Mary must have asked god to create this to show how divine mary-I mean uhh, how perfect-I mean...how close she is with god!
>>17858496
esl
>>17858589
esl
>>17858599
esl

Catholocism is not meant to be perverted into the worship of a jewish woman, that fall from the path is not representative of how it ought to be or how it was at first.

>>17858492 (OP)
>implying the woman that gave birth to Christ the Lord is and should be completely irrelevant to us

>>17859232
No, sorry, you think she was without sin and that she has special sway over Jesus. You put idols of here in your devil churches and pray for her as an mediator when there is but ONE mediatory between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus. Pro tip: If you're brown, don't try to pull the WOOL over the eyes of the WHITE man. Have fun burning.

Ave Maria, gratia plena,
Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Christians venerate Mary. If you don't believe that Mary can pray for you to God, then you do not believe in any Saint, which goes against Biblical traditions. End of the discussion.
>inb4 idols
one they are not idols, but foci; no one believes Mary inhabits the icons and statues dedicated to her, just like nobody believes Jesus inhabits the crucifix or the cross; this unlike the pagans, which literally had the notion of spirits and objects being one, like the Roman Numen. Second of all, Mary is still alive as a Saint on God's side, so it's no graven image, just like depictions of Jesus.

>>17858496
>They worship white people.
Seems quite reasonable

>>17860236
>can pray for you to God
God hears all prayers, why would asking someone else to do it for you mean anything? You're giving special divine power to a human woman, its heresy.
>they are not idols, but foci
Sure bro, you're not praying TO the big statue but AT it, huge difference

>>17860841
>God hears all prayers, why would asking someone else to do it for you mean anything?
Because I am a sinner and can always fall and not be known by Jesus despite saying His Name (Matthew 7). Mary and the Saints are already at Jesus' side and can - possibly - take pity on me as a sinner and pray for me as one of the saved.
Look, I'm not telling you to sin, and I'm not telling you to not pray to the Father, but there is nothing wrong doctrinally with asking for intercession out of a living brother or sister out of fear for your eternal soul, anon.
>Sure bro, you're not praying TO the big statue but AT it, huge difference
it is, iconoclast

>>17860365
>worshipping men is reasonable
No wonder materialist trannies like you always crash and burn in major wars started by your atheist "philosophy".

>>17858599
/thread

>>17860971
>no, I cant just accept christ into my heart like the bible says, someone HAS to do it for me!
You can see the centuries of church brainwashing here, so submissive and pathetic, go donate half your paycheck to buy some cardinal fancy new robes heretic

>>17859232
She’s not Christ, and thus is not worthy of veneration. End of discussion

>>17860980
White people made the internet and related technology you use every day to complain about "trannies".
If you don't like "materialism" go live in a Stone Age village, I guess

>>17861363
>whites created the worst invention in history (the internet)
>now reject Christ and grovel before men
Embarrassing post. I'd tell you to delete, but the big man probably already saw it.

>>17858492 (OP)
>There is no difference between veneration and worship.
Yes there is. Whether most practicing Catholics themselves can properly differentiate the two is a separate matter.

>>17861059
If you think you can't stumble after being shown the path, you're sure to fall.
Peter denied Him three times.

>>17859232
The fact you couldn't bring yourself to respond to >>17859334
speaks volumes. I win.

>>17861391
>If you think you can't stumble after being shown the path, you're sure to fall.
>Peter denied Him three times.
Completely irrelevant. You are unable to reason or follow a coherent line of thought. Please stop pretending otherwise. If you had any decency, you would cut off the oxygen to your worthless "brain" so that you don't suck up any more white resources. Or you could just believe in Jesus. Your pick.

>>17861371
>complains about the very existence of the internet while talking like a Very Online Person
Sounds about right for a tropical Catholic being

>>17861598
Bold statement from a retard who complains about the catholic church that he gets all of his traditions and historiography from while calling himself a Christian.

>>17858492 (OP)
Catholics worship Mary, Protestants Worship the Bible, the Orthodox Worship whoever the current strongman in their shithole is.

>>17861627
You're brown.

>>17861636
Conclusion: The only form of avoiding idolatry is conversion to Tenrikyo.

>>17861640
Worshipping the Bible isn't idolatry. The Bible is Jesus. Enjoy Hell.

>>17861637
>er...
>ummm.....
>*crash out to divert the discussion*
You lost this argument.

>>17861647
>Jesus is the bible
We all knew you were trolling already but come on buddy. You can do better than this.

>>17861650
I don't argue with browns, and I'm not the guy you were originally talking to. Just to be clear. Your skin is still the same color as poop, by the way.
>>17861654
Tick tock.

James D. G. Dunn, in "Christology in the Making" (1989, 2nd ed.), further explains that the Gospel of John's concept of the Logos (Word) does not necessarily imply personal preexistence. Instead, it represents a shift from an impersonal divine personification to a concrete human existence through Jesus' birth and life (p. 243). This aligns closely with the Qur'ānic depiction of Jesus as the embodiment of God's Word or Divine Plan, actualized through God's command "Be!" and brought into existence through the virginal conception in Mary's womb via the spirit transmitted by Gabriel. Hence, neither the New Testament nor the Qur'ān describes the Divine Word (Logos) as a distinct person separate from God; rather, it remains an impersonal, divine utterance or plan made manifest in human history through Jesus

I worship the God of Christ, Allah.
All Christians are idol-worshippers by definition.

>>17858492 (OP)
Jesus is a cool dude and God (obviously) so I'm not going to disrespect his mother on any account. I do believe she was physically buried in Ephesus unlike the Catholics at this time though.

>>17861583
>Completely irrelevant.
It's not. Enjoy hell.

>>17863026
>Enjoy hell.
Sorry, I'm never going.

Hyperdulia is a special veneration reserved for the Virgin Mary, distinct from worship but higher than the veneration given to other saints.

>>17858492 (OP)
>There is no difference between veneration and worship
You seem unable to distinguish between different words.

>>17864773
You seem unable to recognize synonyms.

Blasphemy

>>17858492 (OP)
1/2
Case #3947 of protestants viewing worship so low that they consider asking for prayers and chants to be worship.
The Bible clearly states that prayers of the righteous are more effective.
Job 42:8-10
>… my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.
>10 The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
God accepted Job’s friend because Job prayed for him, this shows that prayers of the righteous are more effective, so asking for them to pray for you and intercede for you is completely normal.
>Revelations 8:3-4
>And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
Prayers of saints are effective.
We see in James 5:16-18 that praying for each other is effective and so are prayers of saints.
>Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Again in Acts 19:11-12, we see Paul’s handkerchief interceding.
>And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them

>>17858492 (OP)

2/2
Same case in 2 Kings 2:13-14 with Elijah miraculous cloak
> And he took up the mantle of Elias, that fell from him: and going back, he stood upon the bank of the Jordan, 14 And he struck the waters with the mantle of Elias, that had fallen from him, and they were not divided. And he said: Where is now the God of Elias? And he struck the waters, and they were divided, hither and thither, and Eliseus passed over.
The Bible also teaches that dead saints can listen to you (unlike what many anons stated here before). Matthew 17:2-3
>And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.
1 Samuel 28:12-20, Samuel when dead is intervening in our world.
>And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice, and said to Saul: Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said to her: Fear not: what hast thou seen? And the woman said to Saul: I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said to her: What form is he of? And she said: An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground, and adored. And Samuel said to Saul: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, that I should be brought up?
Revelation is even clearer.
5:8
> And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:
In 6:9-10 you see dead saints communicated with God.
>And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

>>17864775
Except that they are not synonymous.

>>17864775
Did David worship the Ark in Psalm 99:5? Did Joshua worship the Ark in Joshua 7:6?

>>17858492 (OP)
>only christ is worthy of worship
>mary gave birth to christ
>mary is important to the life of christ
>mary is important
>mary is venerated
protestants understand this they just don't like
>OH NO NO NO NOT WOMEN IN MY IDOL HECKIN' WHITE ONLY RELIGION
please get over hs

>>17858492 (OP)
>I-Its not worship! It’s hyperdulia veneration. A totally different and not made up distinction.
It’s a good thing hairsplitting sophistry wont work before the eternal wrath of the judgement seat of God, no matter the digits added.

>>17865680
See this >>17865328

>>17865328
>>17865330
Nobody cares about your copypasta that's been debunked numerous times. You keep trying to snake it in these threads to make it seem like it hasn't been refuted point for point before.

>>17866049
None of you have ever refuted it. Please try to. I keep on posting it for any of you to actually answer it. Instead you jump to other topics unrelated.

>>17864775
anon, do you know what a synonym is?

>>17858599
I was trying to ask this to an orthodox friend because I feel like my protestant mind can't tell what 'true worship' looks like. What is worship that solely belongs to God? Because veneration seems to be bowing, kissing, prostrating, lighting candles, and prayer (asking for prayers). I'm used to kneeling for communion in Lutheran church, so bowing/prostrating just seems alien to me.

But yeah, if those activities are veneration, what is worship?

>>17866206
worship is define as sacrifice
in the old covenant jews would sacrifice lambs
in the new covenant christians sacrifice bread as a placeholder for Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross

>>17858492 (OP)

You don't know shit about Catholicism.

t. Roman Catholic

>>17866239
no you're not you heathen weeaboo fuck

>>17866237
That's it? Communion?

>>17866245

>heathen weeaboo fuck

Proof?

>>17866274
The sacrifice is an essential part of worship. We believe it to have metaphysical implications and not solely a ritual. In the old testament, prostration would be given near the Ark, to angels, and to kings. As the other anon mentioned sacrifice is a huge part of worship. But also as you can note, we only ask the saints for prayers, we don’t do the same for God. This is not all there is to it, it is just a small summary suitable for 4chan.

>>17866274
No. It is a common defense to their sophistry. Any spiritual invocation is worship like prayer which scripture and church fathers like St. Augustine support.

>>17858492 (OP)
That image is still one of the funniest things I've ever seen, please keep posting it. I'm Catholic and I've grown to love it. I've sent it to my trad friend, I've sent it to my Jewish friend, I've spammed the chat with it. I've gotten to the point where I instinctually smile when I see it because it's so fucking funny. Trads should have their very own miters and Vatican City flag t shirts

>>17865350
>Psalm 99:5
>Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
>Joshua 7:6
>And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
You can't read. Nice try, liar. Have fun burning.

>>17858492 (OP)
there is nothing wrong with worshipping Mary !
Ae you an heretic ?

>>17858496
Based. God didn't make White people to suckle on brown toes.

>>17866841
They are prostrating in front of the ark you retard, you would accuse them of worshipping it. Have fun burning.

>>17866049
>it was deboonked or something

>>17867777
Sorry, I don't engage with proven liars. Enjoy Hell.

>>17867777
They are prostrating to God. What's going on there *is* worship, and the object is God. Just like what's going on in this image is worship, and the object is an idol of Mary.

It's an ongoing trolling of Catholics probably because of mean things they did and religion gets pretty meta about what the beast is.

>>17869262
What did I lie about you fool? Debunk this if you can >>17865328

>>17869590
Is the Ark God himself?
>picrel
They are standing around a statue, the reason you believe this is worship is because the protestant view of worship is so low that standing around a statue is considered worship. You would have accused Hebrews in the OT of worshipping the cherubim of gold and the Ark of the Covenant. I’m also still waiting for you to debunk this >>17865328

>>17870227
>They are standing around a statue, the reason you believe this is worship is because the protestant view of worship is so low that standing around a statue is considered worship
It’s worship because they are outright praying to it.

>>17870935
They are not praying to it.
Council of Trent, Sess. 25, Decree on Sacred Images:
>“Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints are to be placed and retained especially in the churches, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them; not, however, that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them by reason of which they are to be venerated, or that something is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be placed in images, as was done of old by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by means of the images which we kiss and before which we uncover the head and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ and venerate the saints whose likeness they bear. That is what was defined by the decrees of the councils, especially of the Second Council of Nicaea, against the opponents of images.”

I’m going to pray a rosary for you and you can’t stop me OP

>>17870227
>I'm lying, and I know I'm lying.
>Now debate me in good faith.
God hates you, by the way. Tick tock.

>>17872208
I did not lie at all and that is a pathetic excuse not to refute my post.
If you loved God you would actually bother to refute me and show me and others the true faith.

>>17873241
Do you believe Jesus in this verse was implying that his mother was not blessed?
Jesus is the manna coming from heaven according to John 6:48, according to Hebrews 9:4, the manna was carried in the Ark of the Covenant in times before Christ. St. Mary carries Christ being the bread from heaven, she is the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark of the covenant contained the written work of God (Deuteronomy 10:5), St. Mary contained the word of God (John 1:14). The Ark was overshadowed by God (Exodus 40:34-35), St. Mary was overshadowed by God (Luke 1:35). David leaped before the Ark (2 Samuel 6:16), the infant of Elizabeth leaped before St. Mary (Luke 1:41-44). Was St. John practicing idolatry in Revelations 11:19 and 12:1? (We should tag >>17869590 as he would accuse St. John of idolatry). Jesus is the new Adam according to Romans 5:12-19, Adam was brought forth from the Earth. The state of the Earth after God had created it was pure and free from all guilt and sin (Genesis 1:31). Since Jesus (the new Adam) was brought forth from St. Mary, she must have also been pure and free from all sin and guilt. St. Mary is the ark of the new covenant and the second purest human after Jesus Christ.

>>17872013
>Oh thanks man I'm already saved.
Pulls Rosary out
>i'M a CaThOLiC MuAhAhahAHa.

>>17873021
Okay liar. Enjoy Hell.

>>17873840
You still haven’t answered my case for the intercession of saints. I accept your concession.
Protestants always go “faith alone” but when one asks for the intercession of saints he is dammed. So much for salvation through faith alone.

>>17873847
>You still haven’t answered my case for the intercession of saints
This isn't a debate, dorkazoid. Have fun burning.

There is a difference in concept but both the popular and official Catholic practice of veneration to Mary amounts to worship

>>17873850
We all know you live on this board so what else do you have to do? The real reason you will not engage anon's point is because you know Christians asking others to pray for them is explicitly encouraged by scripture. Like usual you got BTFO'd and resort to "Enjoy Hell" because you can't make a case for your own view. You've been doing this schizo routine on /his/ for awhile now but for some reason no one's given you a proper name yet. So I dub you hellfag. You are hellfag from now on.

>>17873885
>We all know you live on this board so what else do you have to do?
I don't live on this board. I just come here in my spare time. Good job slandering the elect, though. Those flames just got hotter.
>BTFO'd
No, nothing like that happened. Meds, now.
>you can't make a case
Except for the scores of times that I have. Go read the archive. I just don't feel like it right now, and I don't owe a rat like you anything.
>schizo
No, sorry, I have to take that away from you. I am the very picture of mental health.
>hellfag
https://www.enjoyhell.org

>>17873885
>We all know you live on this board so what else do you have to do?
I don't live on this board. I just come here in my spare time. Good job slandering the elect, though. Those flames just got hotter.
>BTFO'd
No, nothing like that happened. Meds, now.
>you can't make a case
Except for the scores of times that I have. Go read the archive. I just don't feel like it right now, and I don't owe a rat like you anything.
>schizo
No, sorry, I have to take that away from you. I am the very picture of mental health.
>hellfag
https://www.enjoyhell.com

>>17873892
lmao shut the fuck up hellfag

>>17873892
>No, nothing like that happened
Objectively false. It's your MO. You express your sadism fetish, get outwitted, and then meekly respond with something like...
>no..uh..you liar. enjoy hell

Come on, now that I've replied you're obligated to say the line. Say the line, hellfag!

>>17873897
>lmao
There it is. So predictable.
>>17873910
Tick tock.

>>17873917
Heh, that's our hellfag!

>>17873833
moral orel truly was excellent