Thread 17866836

>what if we banned all political parties except for ONE
>and what if this one political party controlled every aspect of government, and what if this government controlled all aspects of the economy
>And what if the head of this political party was the dictator of the whole operations with no term limits or separations of powers or breaks on his power
>Oh, and theres zero input from the people at large as to who this dictator is going to be, its basically just back room dealings by the oligarchy of the party elites
>But we have some sort of elections for local offices for the people
>they get once choice of a candidate that the all powerful party selects for them
>this is "real democracy"
How the fuck do people still defend this shit?

>>17866836 (OP)
You just described Feudalism, not Communism.

>>17866842
No, thats how communism works. You're clearly some retarded band dork who thinks "dude communism is when you share!"

>>17866836 (OP)
>How the fuck do people still defend this shit?
they imagine themselves as high ranking members of the politburo

>>17866846
Yes. You litterally described feudalism. You know words have meanings, yes? Reals before feels?

>>17866867
Nonsensical response. Are you a furry/trans too?

>>17866865
This

>>17866872
>encounters the slightest opposition
>immediately begins thinking about trannies

>>17866885
>e-commie gets called out
>immediatly starts shitposting nonsense
Communist nation states all do the above listed you fucking retard. The fact that you think this is feudalism should be a wake up call for you faggot.

>>17866887
>national states do feudalism
>this means it's communism

Reals before feels, remember?

>>17866888
This response makes no sense. AI bot response.

>>17866865
>>17866874
Real reason is that most e-commies have no actual clue what communism is. Its amazing how utterly clueless and illiterate they are.

>>17866836 (OP)
Thats what we have now, they are called ZOG and they use politicians like sockpuppets so no matter who gets elected the ZOG is always in control

>>17866894
If that doesn't make sense then you need to take a remedial English class.

>>17866904
That image is such a classic 2007ish Libertarian/conspiracy theoriest throwback lol

>>17866898
He says, in a "communism is when government do bad thing" thread.

>>17866909
>n a "communism is when government do bad thing" thread.
No one said this except you though. Thats a strawman argument. Try again retard.

>>17866913
So >>17866836 (OP) these are all good things?

>>17866921
>posting to the OP post which doesnt not include the phrase "communism is when government do bad thing"
Good job retard.
>these are all good things
Those are all things inherent to all communist nation-states. If you read all that and thought it was bad, then that means you're anti communist.

>>17866926
Do you think those things are bad?

>>17866929
You apparently do. Those were just presented as the facts of communist systems and your reaction was to claim that the OP post was saying its a bad thing. It never said if those things are good or bad, you just came to the conclusion yourself of being anti communist.

>>17866933
2nd time of asking, do you think those are bad things?

>>17866936
2nd time pointing out that you have already admitted that you think communism is bad. The factual realities of how communist nation states operates was presented, you read through, and responded that it was when the government is bad. I think its pretty obvious to even you that this is what happened, you realize you have no real counter argument, and are just doubling down on repeating the same thing over and over again.

Sorry you based your identity on online edgy politics and it just got shattered lol

>>17866945
3rd time asking, are those things bad?

>>17866948
Are you asking if I agree with you that communism is bad?

>>17866952
I am asking if those things you listed in the OP are bad.

>>17866955
You mean the list of characteristic of communism that you said were bad? Those?

>>17866958
The things listed in the OP, are they bad or no?

>>17866961
You mean the ones you said were bad?

>>17866965
Why can't you say if they're bad or not?

>>17866972
Why wont you admit that you said they were bad? lol

>China rejects international communism and sides with America
>They immediately see modernization, take out giant loans from the world bank, and the Soviet Union dies
lol

>>17866872
>heh, feels before reals tranny! science matters!
>btw green is blue if you disagree you're a heckin' troon or something
real valid brave etc.

>>17866836 (OP)
They never call it a democracy. It's a nation state.
Maybe there's a democratic process to voice greviances.
>Oh, and theres zero input from the people at large as to who this dictator is going to be, its basically just back room dealings by the oligarchy of the party elites
This just sounds like the US to be honest.

>>17866885
>>17866867
Alright, tankie furshitter

>>17868104
>litterally cannot formulate an argument without thinking about wierd sex

>>17866836 (OP)
Westernoids screech about "democracy" while their "choices" are two corporate-owned geriatrics who serve the same oligarchs. China lifted 800M from poverty, US drowns in debt and mass shootings. Your "freedom" is voting for which warmonger bombs brown kids next. Cope harder while your empire crumbles and the East rises.

>>17866842
>>17866867
>the system that was filled with people born in the Russian empire manifested itself similarly to the Russian empire
>Wtf how could this happen???
Why are commies so delusional?
Racial realists are ALWAYS right. Demographics are destiny. Ideology can not overcome genetics.

>>17868117
>MUH CHINA
China was a rotting backwards shithole up until the late 1970s. They only changed after Mao died, Deng trashed orthodox marxism, and then just started taking out huge loans from the world bank.

>>17868117
>muh debt
Chinas debt as a percentage of their GDP is about 88% and rising since Xi took power. I don't know why midwits always throw this around like it means anything. Debt is a necesarry thing for a countries development. I would rather be more like Japan than Russia, and I think most people would agree with me

>>17868254
You're right. Chinese understood this.
But instead of identitarian politics, Chinese decided to put their Han genetics over capital.

>>17866836 (OP)
>still had a flatter wealth distribution that capitalist societies
it wasn't perfect and needed more internal democracy, democratic centralism was a mistake
but what does it say about liberal "democracy" that even a one party state mogs it when it comes to treating people equally?

>>17866836 (OP)
>>this is "real democracy"
This is the only part that makes it a blatant farce. Authority is inevitable and the unknowing masses shouldn't even be given the illusion of participation.

>>17868254
The USSR's most infamous ruler was not a genetic Russian though? And most of the Tsars who gave Russia that reputation in the first place were genetically Germans or Scandinavians

Lenin did a gamble hoping that Germany would also have a revolution, and them work together to spread communism. Otherwise they were lost. Doing communism in a industrial rich society was absolutely necesarry - people who read Marx get this.

It was very irresponsible

>>17866842
Feudalism have massively more of republican process and rule by social consensus than communist Authoritarianism.

>>17866984
China has no communism since 1979 when Deng Xiaoping disbanded kolhozes (kolkhoz literally means communal farm) and introduced market pricing that is opposite to labor value pricing.

>>17869961
>if only we could rule Germany and not some trashy backwaters country

>>17866836 (OP)
woah there buddy slow down SLOW DOWN hold your horses

they get to pick whoever as their candidate,even from outside The Party because the it's rigged

>>17870094

by that point the stalinist way of doing communism has completely talen over and east germany had to build itself back up after everything was destroyed. Capitalism is something you should use to develop productive forces.

>>17866867
>litterally
you are literally an illiterate dork who just repeated the claim that there's one party in feudalism.

>>17866867
>political parties
>feudalism
Are you fucking retarded?

>>17869370
China can finance its own debt and finance foreign nations. That is why it has a positive balance of payments and positive NIIP. Muh debt argument is retarded in and on itself, and you are clearly clueless about what it means

>>17870326
You are too drunk to notice you are agreeing with him.

>>17869896
Wealth distribution means jack shit if everyone is poor, you fucking dingus. Malawi is more egualitarian than Silicon Valley

>>17869961
Marx was just an speculator and a theorists. All his predictiona have failed and become obsolete, nobody but a few retards take him seriously. Yoy are the equivalent of an scholastic in the XIX century

>>17870329
No I am not, if you take all of China's creditors and debtors it is still a net creditor country while the US is literally the modern version of the Spanish empire replacing silver with paper money

>>17868254
>openly admitting that the USSR wasn't communism but a hideous bastard of the Russian empire
Thanks for agreeing with me.

>>17870340
Debt is just a way to invest surplus capital. China just has such a massive capital surplus annually that it has to be invested somewhere. This is a different case from the US in which the economy grows much slower than debt issuance both in the private and public sector which is why living conditions have deteriorated so much in the US despite
>muh GDP
>muh salary

>>17870314
>feudalism
>parties
Loooooooooooool
>>17870321
Where did I mention parties?

>>17870343
>hmmm ashtually the USSR was not real communism
>hmmm ashtually Maoist China was not real communism
>hmmm ashtually Pol Pot was not a real communist
>hmmm ashtually Vietnam was not real communism
>hmmm ashtually the Romania was not real communism
This is just a true scottsman falacy

>>17870346
You said OP's description was feudalism and he talks about a 1 party system. Don't be fucking retarded and stop coping.

>>17870345
The prospects of the US economy are so bad that multinationals in the US preffer buying their own stock with profits to pump up the price rather than reinvest the capital into something productive. I don't know how long can the clown show of the US economy go on before imploding, the country is living way beyond its means and all of this is prompted by the EU and China to store money in dollars which is quickly losing its status as reserve currency

>>17866842
Socialism is just Feudalism but for the proletariat rather than bourgoisie.

>>17870369
You don't know what feudalism is. Holy shit you marxists are stupid

>>17866836 (OP)
>Oh, and theres zero input from the people at large as to who this dictator is going to be, its basically just back room dealings by the oligarchy of the party elites
You do realize that Communist parties largely operate on bottom up direct democracy right?
China literally is up there with Switzerland in Government responsiveness. Mass Line is quite literally direct democratic input that is far more effective than 99% of Western countries.

>>17870392
China is not the USSR or communist. It is basically a Francoist state with red paraphernalia. When it used to be communist it got ruled by a revolutionary elite that genocided all potential opposition

>>17870350
>>17870333

Democracy hasn't worked the first time either.

Historical materialism is the correct way to see the world.
We have tons of ideologies about post capitalism these days, it's all the same ideas as Marx did, maybe more enviromentally aware

>>17870400
>Democracy hasn't worked the first time either.
Democracy is not an economic model of production. Market capitalism is, and it worked well since its implementation

>>17870400
Marxists are like the scholastic theologians of the XIX century. This people discuss their doctrine as theology in closed circles while refusing to incorporate external ideas to their verbose garbage

>>17870350
Correct. Words mean things. Reals before feels, remember?

>>17870413
The real is that what you consider comunism is idealist garbage and its implementation has always failed spectacularly.
It is hilarious that marxists criticize capitalism for its real defects but refuse to take any fault in any implementation of their idealist garbage and compare utopian ideal communism with factual and real capitalism

>>17870397
China is 100% communist.
Under Mao it was even more direct democracy lmao. GLF and Cultural Revolution were literally as direct democracy as you get.

>>17870424
>China is 100% communist.
Yes, when Marx talked about communism he meant private property, usury and financial markets as we all know

>>17870430
What is Marxist Leninism dude. There is no functional difference between China and the USSR in it's ideology or goals.
China is in a socialist stage of development to move towards Communism. Go watch or read anything out of CPSU congresses and they are still quoting Marx, talking about Marxist theory still grounding policy in Socialist and Communist positions.
China is a Communist country who's goal is Communism.

>>17870418
Actually they see the faults and archivments of both capitalism and socialism.

I think they are too harsh on socialist reforms, it's just silly. Welfare capitalism (healthcare, social security etc.) is an absolute necesity and was a civilizationary advancement.
Planned economies like China also has advantages as we see today.
Most countries are exploited, only way to fight back is a planned economy.

>>17870432
>There is no functional difference between China and the USSR in it's ideology or goals.
Lol, you people will grasp at all the straws that you like. Current day China is closer to a place like Mussolini's Italy than the USSR
>socialist stage of development
>private means of production
>socialism
Fucking kek
>they are still quoting Marx,
And modern liberals quote Aristotles or the bible while defending democracy and allowing fags to marry each other
>China is a Communist country who's goal is Communism.
Sure thing buddy, that's why the CCP is making monuments to the Chinese imperial past instead of whipping it out as they used to do

>>17870438
>Planned economies like China
Are you fucking retarded? China is not a planned economy. They might give some economic incentives to some sectors (just like in the west) but most investment in the economy is done through a capitalist logic of P&L

>>17870440
>Lol, you people will grasp at all the straws that you like. Current day China is closer to a place like Mussolini's Italy than the USSR
No it isn't. Fascist Social Organism is completely different from Socialism and Communism.
>Fucking kek
Capitalists have almost no material power within the Chinese state. They are subservient to the power of the CPC and people.
>And modern liberals quote Aristotles or the bible while defending democracy and allowing fags to marry each other
There is a difference between quoting aristotle, and deep discussions on Marxist goals within developing policy.
>Sure thing buddy, that's why the CCP is making monuments to the Chinese imperial past instead of whipping it out as they used to do
What does Socialism have to do with self hatred? Nihlistic self hatred is a Western Left position, not inherent to Socialism.

Mind you that the CCP is a corporatist entity. There is a single union in all the country and the country changes policies and regulations to favor businesses
This corporativism (one party, one union and the business class working together) is literally the proposal of Italian fascism which the communist heavily criticized and demonized as poison to neutralize the proletariat revolution. The fact that hardcore Marxists are defending literal fascism will never stop baffling me

>>17870448
>Capitalists have almost no material power within the Chinese state
Holy shit the delusion. You can literally remove regulations in China to build a factory that they consider strategic
>There is a difference
No there is not. The CCP has literally dished most Marxist doctrine and they new ideological pivot is towards traditional Chinese values and confuncian values of long term planing, merit and burocracy
>What does Socialism have to do with self hatred?
Socialism and marxism literally see history as a videogame in which civilizations reach different stages of organization of production until they reach communism which is a stateless society. To change the model of production marxism defends that it can only be done through violent means and a restructure of society.
Defending people like Confucious that defends statism and burocratization or Lao Tse that defends that you should flow with life and that abrupt changes are bad literally opposes the very esence of Marxism

>Socialism and marxism literally see history as a videogame in which civilizations reach different stages of organization of production

Holy shit now I know why I like that shit

>>17870331
I'd rather live in an actual house in Malawi than be reduced to shitting on the streets of San Francisco,
the deep poverty and homelessness in California is a global disgrace
and the eastern bloc wasn't "everyone is equally poor", yeah they weren't the richest on Earth or as well-off as Western Europe but they lived better than a lot of the world.

>>17869901
Communism is inherently authoritarianism, but they never can admit this and have to LARP as "le real democracy"

It boils down to midwits taking absolute power to usher in a better world for hick retards in the country side and/or blue collar retards in the cities and the entire thing sits on the idea that these unwashed masses are so fucking stupid that when presented with any choice, they will vote against their own interest.

Maybe there is some famous communist that admits to this, but Im unaware of any

>>17869961
>Doing communism in a industrial rich society was absolutely necessary
Yeah, too bad people in developed countries dont want this and its instead an utopia dream by backwards third world shitholes instead.

>>17866836 (OP)
In what is forthcoming in one is withheld in another but assured all the same. All political systems are poisoned by short sighted men as "well intending" as they claim to be.

Bc most people that want communism think it's a utopian economic model where everything is free and life becomes easy. Only people that don't understand economics believe in socialism or communism.

>>17870571
t. never leaved the first world
Stop being retarded

>workers vote on matters and leadership to inform national decision making
>not real democracy
Enjoy your dictatorship of the bourgeoisie

>>17871328
>authoritarianism
Is meaningless. Do you believe that civilizations with more than, say, a few thousand people will require some kind of imposing Authority? If yes, you're an "authoritarian." It basically means you have a functioning nervous system, and every liberal or anarchic "philosophy" boils down to denying that the sky is blue.
>>17872980
Case in point.

>>17866842

Except feudal societies frequently did practice primitive and limited forms of democracy. The English Parliament traces its lineage back to the Magnum Concilium established by William the Conquerer in 1066. The lone exception in Western Europe at that time was really France where the Ancien Regime ruled with absolute despotism so extreme that it indirectly caused the English Civil War (the Parliamentarians were fucking terrified that Charles I's marriage to Henrietta Maria was going to lead to French-style absolute monarchism being exported to English shores) and even they still had the Estates-General, albeit it was borderline powerless.

If anything, Communism is more fucking backward than feudalism.

>>17870571
>I'd rather live in an actual house in Malawi
lmao, no you wouldn't, because if you did you'd be there right now instead of bitching like a retard. Land in Malawi is dirt cheap, nobody is stopping you
>the deep poverty and homelessness in California is a global disgrace
The United States as a whole has a homeless rate of 0.17% of the population
Compare this to the Communist Utopia known as China which...also has a homeless population of 0.17% of the population...so that argument is pretty fucking moot. China actually has more homelessness overall because it also has a higher overall population but that's besides the point

>>17873048
China is unequal as fuck, more than most of Europe. Commies don't even know what they defend, they are very fucking stupid

>>17872980
>workers vote
When has any communist government promised even that? And delivered it?

>>17873083
Incredibly ignorant question, what do you think the soviets were

>>17873107
Was it the workers who voted, or just representatives of the Party deciding whether or not to say "yes" to the guy who'd gulag them if they said "no"?

>>17866836 (OP)
>How the fuck do people still defend this shit?
They'll say it wasn't real communism because real communism provides unlimited free shit for everybody.

>>17873119
>i cant believe i was arrested for publicly campaigning in favour of pedophilia
I mean, a society sets a baseline of what is acceptable, so yes, some times people get shut down for trying to push something beyond those limits.

>>17873122
>campaigning in favour of pedophilia
>yes, that accurately describes everyone who was ever gulag'd for any reason ever

>>17873132
Capitalism is far worse than pedophilia, and I say that as someone who wants the death penalty as a minimum mandatory sentence for pedophilia.

>>17873046
>primitive
>limited

There's voting in communism as well dumb cunt.

>>17870476
Every single historian sees history as this as well anon. You know, the whole Bronze Age-Iron Age-Classical Age thing?

>>17873135
>Capitalism
And there it is. You can't process the facts about your retarded pet ideology without running it through a layer of "but capitalism tho." And to be clear, I'm all in favor of autarchy; yours is just retarded, because it pretends that it's not, just like every other so-called "Enlightenment" so-called "philosophy."

>>17873149
Holy shit morons popping out from everywhere. Autarchists, communists and pedos all just popped in this thread

>>17873149
>bitching about communism
>NO YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE ACTUAL DOMINANT IDEOLOGY IN PLACE YOU'RE SEEKING TO REPLACE REEEEEEEEEE
You're an idiot

>>17873156
You are more retarded than him. Only a sick retard would say that paedophilia is better than capitalism.

>>17873161
I never said that

>>17873161
Btw not even Marx would agree with a retard like you, Marx admitted capitalism was very successful and it could create the post scarcity conditions for communism. Only a tankie retard reading internet memes could have this wankie commical vision of capitalism as an absolute demonic economic system

>>17873162
It is literally the post he is replying to>>17873135
Please follow the thread and stop being an actual fucking retard. Thank you

>>17873151
Autarchy has existed for the majority of post-agricultural civilization, and it was called "the divine right to rule" for most of that.
>>17873156
>bitching about communism
>bitching
If you were trying to demonstrate its supposed merits, you failed. If pointing that out is "bitching" to you, then I don't know what to tell you, in the sense that I don't know what to tell a 40-year-old woman who still dyes her hair purple and believes in crystal healing.

>>17873166
Autarchy never existed, trade has always being a thing. The only thing that changed is the scale in which trade happened

>>17873169
>Autarchy never existed
See part about "the divine right to rule."
>trade has always being [sic] a thing
And was facilitated by the autarch for the majority of that history.
>The only thing that changed is the
Layers of distance between the autarch and what is being traded, yes.

>>17873173
Autarchy is not the same as authoritarianism. Autarchy means self subsistance