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Thread 17881684

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Anonymous No.17881684 >>17881705 >>17882636 >>17884570 >>17885964 >>17885979 >>17886680 >>17886865 >>17887506
>the english suppressed the irish language for over 700 years
>irish was still the language of the majority by 1845
>Ireland gets hit by one famine
>gets independence in 1922
>they just keep speaking english

Why did they abandon their language despite keeping it alive for over half a millennium? Why was there no revival? Speaking the language of your enemy instead of your native language means you have lost.
Anonymous No.17881698
it's ok, it's better this way
Anonymous No.17881705 >>17886680
>>17881684 (OP)
They’re not speaking the language of their enemy. Like everyone else on those isles, they’re British (English 2.0).
Anonymous No.17882490 >>17882558 >>17884858
One of the main reasons is the Catholic Church encouraged the use of English in a religious context.
Anonymous No.17882558 >>17882636
>>17882490
Between 1985 and 2006 church attendance rate in Ireland went from 85 to 40%, the young generations are reported to be as low as 2%. It's a non issue
Anonymous No.17882636 >>17883089 >>17884559 >>17884675
>>17881684 (OP)
So what actually happened is that in the decades leading up to the famine in the 1840s, political leaders such as Daniel O'Connell encoruaged people to ditch Irish and learn English to gain some sort of societal mobility.

Most of the island lived in horrendous poverty, so it was a no brainer for most to learn English to better avail of the Penal Laws finally coming to an end and society opening up. Then
>famine in the 1840s
The areas hit hardest by mass death or emigration were those in which mongolot Irish speakers were most prevelent, so an already rapidly declining language went terminal. By the end of the 1800s, it appeared to be on the way out.
>but they became independent in 1922, didn't they?
Sort of (British Dominion until the 1940s) so all of their institutions, politics, economics and so on were in English. Almost everyone on the island spoke English, and just like anywhere else in the world, if a language isn't *needed* for either political unity of a newly founded state or for economic mobility, nobody really gives a fuck.

Most people were more interested in bettering their situation, as opposed to spending the time and effort to learn a language which 100% of speakers would use as a secondary language to the one everyone on the island speaks.

This is probably speculative of me, but I think most people in Ireland would probably still speak English even if Ireland had been freed much sooner. Sandwiched between the UK and the US, it's hard to see a world where English is the lingua franca but Ireland doesn't speak it at least in the same manner that most Scandinavian/north Euro countries teach it.
>>17882558
Not at all a non issue. Remember; language already in decline BEFORE the famine, being egged on by basically everyone. The fact that anyone speaks it whatsoever is a miracle.
Anonymous No.17883089 >>17883100 >>17883200 >>17886221
>>17882636
Finland still speaks Finnish despite Sweden brutally oppressing their language for centuries, Estonia still speaks Estonian despite Russia brutally oppressing their language for centuries.
Anonymous No.17883100
>>17883089
suppressing language in pre industrial age don't matter much unless you go full Genghis
and finns have their language saved by ivans(always make me laugh), same for estonians who were mostly oppressed by baltic germans not russians
Anonymous No.17883200
>>17883089
Neither of those are very comparable examples. The nations and their languages have a completely different history to that of Ireland.
Anonymous No.17883801 >>17883863 >>17884832
The only reason the irish famine isn't considered a genocide is because it happened to whites. If this happened to blacks or asians historians would be calling it a genocide. In the past the Irish government has even paid black historians to to talks at schools and colleges and say the irish famine was not a genocide.
Anonymous No.17883863 >>17883946 >>17886223
>>17883801
It's more that there are two 'poles', the Irish Famine and the Holocaust. The definition of genocide was carefully made so that it includes every single element of the Holocaust while excluding every single element of the Irish Famine (and other colonizers famines as well). The idea here was to make sure the history books would say that the good guy countries never did a real genocide, but the bad guy countries did the comprehensive genocide.

Just lately (last 20 or so years) the colonizers famines are being defined as genocide in the mainstream, but there is no effort to include the Irish Famine. Far leftists of all kinds from anywhere, and far rightists from Ireland, have always defined it as genocide, but the far leftists kind of ignore it now.
Anonymous No.17883946 >>17886099
>>17883863
Leftists stopped being Irish glazers and for the first time consider Irish white people rather than their own special race as marx did or lumped in with other oppressed indigenes/global south type talk, probably because they stopped bombing innocents in English and thusly the Irish's long history as a race to be used as a cudgel against the English/British ceased.

Same reason if Tibet or the Uyghurs were independent from China and had no quarrel with the Chinese you would have never heard of those peoples neither.
Anonymous No.17884559 >>17886879
>>17882636
>This is probably speculative of me, but I think most people in Ireland would probably still speak English even if Ireland had been freed much sooner. Sandwiched between the UK and the US, it's hard to see a world where English is the lingua franca but Ireland doesn't speak it at least in the same manner that most Scandinavian/north Euro countries teach it.

Welsh is still spoken in Wales and Wales is right beside England
Anonymous No.17884570 >>17885018
>>17881684 (OP)
Why is that one part of Ulster called Tyrone?
Anonymous No.17884675 >>17884696 >>17884702 >>17884779
>>17882636
>if a language isn't *needed* for either political unity of a newly founded state or for economic mobility, nobody really gives a fuck.
Sure, but a language can still survive locally. Minority languages can easily entrench themselves as the language of rural communities and small towns within their region since the people who don't move to the city will spend most of their time around their local compatriots, there are countless examples of this in Europe alone, and it is honestly baffling that Irish failed so miserably despite receiving more government investment than most.
>The fact that anyone speaks it whatsoever is a miracle.
No it really isn't. Very few, if any, languages have gone from being spoken by millions to extinct in just 200 years.
Anonymous No.17884696 >>17884742
>>17884675
Irish is still spoken by 71,000 in the gaeltacht regions but these are areas are shrinking.
Anonymous No.17884702
>>17884675
The famine caused that. Irish was spoken by over 4 million people by 1840 despite the english suppressing it for hundreds of years. Then the famine hit in 1845 and affected the areas of the country where irish was spoken most. Less than a million people spoke irish in 1870. The famine was a genocide though.
Anonymous No.17884742 >>17884745 >>17884750
>>17884696
More than half a million spoke Irish in 1926, that steep of a decline despite having a government throwing money at the language throughout these 100 years is inexcusable.
Anonymous No.17884745 >>17884809
>>17884742
There was not more than half a million irish speakers in 1926 anon
Anonymous No.17884750 >>17884779 >>17887869 >>17887869
>>17884742
Since independence in 1922, Irish has been taught in schools via grammer and writing rather than oral communication. Irish is still spoken by 71,000 in the gaeltacht areas but the government keeps opening IPAS centers in the gaeltacht for asylum seekers.
Anonymous No.17884779 >>17884795 >>17884809
>>17884675
All that would be needed would be to teach primary school through Irish.

>>17884750
That's kind of why they failed to revive it. It's either taught as something you should already know (which you might depending on your family or community), or it's taught like a foreign language (for most people). You'd need to be fortunate to end up in a school or with a teacher who taught it like it was the first language.
Anonymous No.17884795 >>17884806 >>17884809 >>17884811 >>17886045 >>17886078 >>17887869
>>17884779
Do you think it's possible to revive the language at this point or is it too late?
Anonymous No.17884806 >>17884812 >>17884838
>>17884795
NTA but
yeah just make it the mandatory and the only language schools and colleges teach their shit in and aggressively ban english therein, they'll still pick english up from at home/internet etc but making it the majority language was stupidly easy at any point in time.
Anonymous No.17884809
>>17884745
There was, I posted that year in particular as that was the year of the first Irish census.
>>17884779
Yes, but that is only feasible in the Gaeltachts.
>>17884795
A slow revival that preserves and maybe even expands the Gaeltachts is possible, making Irish the majority language again across the island isn't.
Anonymous No.17884811 >>17884819
>>17884795
We have another generation to do it, but it's getting more difficult. The government could be spending money on training up teachers to teach other subjects through Irish, and then converting more schools to teach through Irish. That will be a lot more expensive in another ten years.
Anonymous No.17884812
>>17884806
>and aggressively ban english therein

That's impossible and the government would never do that anon
Anonymous No.17884819 >>17884838
>>17884811
The government has tried putting IPAS centers in the gaeltacht twice in the last five years. I genuinely believe they are trying to kill the last irish language strongholds

https://www.independentireland.ie/news/gaeltacht-ipas
bong No.17884832 >>17885936 >>17886078
>>17883801
I don't give a FUCK about the whining any more.
You should have done more to help the Anglo-Saxons during the norman takeover (and genocide) then maybe you wouldn't have had to live next door to a monster.
Anonymous No.17884838 >>17884845
>>17884806
Just start with primary schools, and allow secondary schools and universities to continue teaching through English. In fact there wouldn't ever be a need to require them to teach through Irish at these levels.

It's fine for Ireland to continue as an English speaking country, it would just be better if we had Irish as well. I'd hope that this would encourage us as a society to maintain our independence in various ways, but even if it's just creating a population that has some Irish that would still be a good thing.

>>17884819
I wonder why they haven't put every IPAS into a wealthy neighborhood, somewhere fancy in Dublin, somewhere that would have voted 'yes' on more refugees.
Anonymous No.17884839 >>17884843
Most Irish people are indifferent to the Irish language and don't care that it died. A lot of Irish people even hate the language. It's odds how irish people refused to let their language die despite hundreds of years of british oppression but once they got independence they just abandoned it. Irish people love it when american tourists speak a bit of irish to them and they are flattered but irish people have zero interest in trying to revive the language. It seems they'd rather keep it as this symbolic thing and the government keeps laying out these big plans for the language like how they said in 2010 they wanted 250,000 speakers by 2030.

I've always respected Wales for the fact that they actually put the effort into keeping their language alive. Over 500,000 people speak Welsh daily and the Welsh government has spent nearly a century doing all sorts of initiatives to keep the language alive.
Anonymous No.17884843 >>17884849
>>17884839
Irish people dislike it because of how it's taught. It's a 'humiliation ritual', if you try to progress from the most basic Irish to the actual fluent Irish, you're made to feel bad you don't already speak it.

Wales started to require primary schools to teach through Welsh. That's necessary and sufficient to give the language a chance.
Anonymous No.17884845
>>17884838
I've noticed irish people always get confused/weirded out when they see other europeans talk about their love for their native language. Irish people don't seem to see languages as anything more than a tool and can't understand that you can learn two languages like other european countries do.
Anonymous No.17884849 >>17884872
>>17884843
I've seen people say that fluent irish speakers from the gaeltacht are seen as upper class and tend to shit on people for not speaking irish perfectly and are gatekeeping the language. Not sure how true that is.
Anonymous No.17884855 >>17884872 >>17887869
Anonymous No.17884858 >>17886116
>>17882490
The Catholic Pope is the one who approved the Norman-British invasion id Ireland over 800 years ago.

It was Catholic British with approval from the Pope in Rome who violently conquered and subjugated Ireland.

Britain didn't become Protestant until after the 16th century.
Anonymous No.17884872
>>17884849
I haven't seen that from Gaeltacht speakers, but there is a certain kind of person who'd have gotten private lessons in Irish and they would definitely be gatekeepers.

>>17884855
lol fucking classic
Anonymous No.17884885 >>17884905
Why is Irish even a compulsory subject in school?
Anonymous No.17884905
>>17884885
SAAAAAAAAAAAR I COMES TO THE BRITISHER ISLES WHY THEY NO SPEAK ONLY ENGLAND SAAAAAAAAAAAR
Anonymous No.17885018 >>17885046
>>17884570
>Why is that one part of Ulster called Tyrone?
“Land of Owen” in Gaelic
Anonymous No.17885046 >>17885603
>>17885018
I see. Any connection to the black name?
Anonymous No.17885603
>>17885046
NTA but hilariously I've never come across any other origin of the term. "Tyrone" is the Anglicised version, aka what the English call it.

There was a very popular tank actor called Tyrone Power, maybe that's where it comes from.
Anonymous No.17885925
Why wasn't there any real effort in reviving the Irish language? Wales revived Welsh.
Anonymous No.17885936 >>17886078
>>17884832
Did the irish kingdoms even know it was going on before the normans basically won?
Anonymous No.17885964
>>17881684 (OP)
Are you saying England Chinad Ireland?
Anonymous No.17885979
>>17881684 (OP)
TV, radio.
Same happened in spain, local languages started fading away.
Anonymous No.17886045
>>17884795
>Do you think it's possible to revive the language at this point or is it too late?
Does anyone really think that Mbeke or Rakesh are going to be bothered with learning Gaelic?
Anonymous No.17886078 >>17886399
>>17885936
Yes.

In fact, the High King of Ireland at the time (Diarmait mac mael na mBo) was close friends and allies with Harold Godwinson. After Hastings, the sons of Harold fled straight to Dublin-where they were given ships+supplies to try go retake their home.

Harold Godwinson's Battle Standard shows up years later in the Irish Annals as being exchanged as a gift between two Kings.
>>17884832
See above.

In the 11th Century, Ireland was reeling from the Battle of Clontarf in 1016; a newly unified island with succession reform imploded following an enormous battle between the armies of High King Brian Boru and those loyal to his rivals+an invading Norse host.

The decades following were marked by attempts by various people to either restore the united realm that Brian had made, or seize it for themselves. "Norse Dublin" fell permanently into Gaelic hands in the 1040s.
>>17884795
Revival very possible, but we absolutely will not see it overtake English.

Irish will become more commonplace all over the island, but English will remain spoken by basically everyone. The revival movement knows this, which is why they're pragmatists about it.
Anonymous No.17886099
>>17883946
You come across as a genuinely mentally ill person. I've never read such utter shite.
Anonymous No.17886116 >>17886208 >>17886304
>>17884858
>It was Catholic British with approval from the Pope in Rome who violently conquered and subjugated Ireland.
>Britain didn't become Protestant until after the 16th century.

Ireland wasn't conquered until the early 1600s after the reformation when England was Protestant. It was only then that Ireland was completely under their control. The descendants of the Normans remained Catholics and fought against the Protestant English. The Pope sent aid to then in their fight against the English and the Catholic Church was heavily involved in the 11 years War in the mid 1600s on the Irish Catholic side.

The Pope who allegedly sanctioned the English crown to take Ireland hundreds of years before was an Englishman and the papal bull is thought to have been a forgery.
Anonymous No.17886208
>>17886116
To be fair while the Laudabiliter is considered to have been a load of shite, the Catholic Church in England were very keen to push for intervention in Ireland.

Irish churches worked differently to most Catholic Churches and want for both religious reform and religious taxes from Ireland was very present amongst fans of the Gregorian Reforms in England. Henry II was probably gonna invade eventually, regardless of Strongbow's autism.

However, given how well Ruaidri Ua Conchobar did in the counter-offensive against the Normans, one does wonder what would happen had Strongbow and his mates not already occupied key landing zones along the coast.
Anonymous No.17886221
>>17883089
>Finland still speaks Finnish despite Sweden brutally oppressing their language for centuries
Very few educated people in Finland spoke Finnish until like 1950s, probably because the educated ones were Swedes.
Anonymous No.17886223 >>17886260
>>17883863
Are you sure? Ton of leftists (on the web) call it a planned genocide
Anonymous No.17886260
>>17886223
Historians do not call it genocide because it doesn't fall within what is currently the defition of genocide.

It's in a funny spot because the death+displacement was completely undeniably the fault of Britain-but the administration *at the time* did have a mixed approach to aid-with some trying very hard to help, and others going from not caring to actively encouraging the situation as a means of easing reform for the future.

Sadly most people are retards, so they can only think in terms of
>it wasn't a genocide, shut up dumb woke micks
>it was a genocide, evil nazi brits
The famine categorically was not just some unfortuante incident, it was something that affected Ireland quite uniquely due to how uniquely dire things were in Ireland between thelate 1700s and the mid 1800s.
Anonymous No.17886304 >>17886319
>>17886116
>Ireland wasn't conquered until the early 1600s after the reformation when England was Protestant
based tudor bvlls blessing the bog trotters with the gift of shakespeare and spenser over papuerism and popery
Anonymous No.17886319 >>17886349
>>17886304
>BASED tudors
It wasn't the Tudors.

The Tudor conquest was an extremely mixed bag; they tried diplomacy, and used force where diplomacy was met with "no, I don't want to give you my lands." Some small initial successes, some mostly unsuccessful plantation efforts, and then the Nine Years War happened and they almost lost the entire island.

They were getting their shit pushed in from the 1590s right through until 1601. It was Cromwell's lot that finally *conquered* Ireland.
Anonymous No.17886349 >>17886382
>>17886319
Yeah the tudors didn't win against the irish which is why the irish "voluntarily" let planters settle in the choicest lands in ulster
lmao
tudors were based. simple as.
>Note.—I have shrunk somewhat from giving these and other sketches (true and accurate as I believe them to be) of Ireland during Elizabeth's reign, when the tyranny and lawlessness of the feudal chiefs had reduced the island to such a state of weakness and barbarism, that it was absolutely necessary for England either to crush the Norman-Irish nobility, and organize some sort of law and order, or to leave Ireland an easy prey to the Spaniards, or any other nation which should go to war with us. The work was done—clumsily rather than cruelly; but wrongs were inflicted, and avenged by fresh wrongs, and those by fresh again. May the memory of them perish forever! It has been reserved for this age, and for the liberal policy of this age, to see the last ebullitions of Celtic excitability die out harmless and ashamed of itself, and to find that the Irishman, when he is brought as a soldier under the regenerative influence of law, discipline, self-respect, and loyalty, can prove himself a worthy rival of the more stern Norse-Saxon warrior. God grant that the military brotherhood between Irish and English, which is the special glory of the present war, may be the germ of a brotherhood industrial, political, and hereafter, perhaps, religious also; and that not merely the corpses of heroes, but the feuds and wrongs which have parted them for centuries, may lie buried, once and forever, in the noble graves of Alma and Inkerman.
Anonymous No.17886382 >>17886417
>>17886349
I didn't say the Tudors weren't based, I am telling you that they aren't the guys who conquered Ireland.

Elizabeth Tudor reigned until 1603. In that time, the Tudors had a brief window of expansion across Ireland between the island-generally between the 1550s and the 1580s. There was a lot of sentiment about Irish troops being strong in the early 17th Century specifically because from 1593-1601, the newly modernised Gaelic armies in the Irish Alliance were regularly defeating larger English armies all over the island. Lands were taken back, garrisons burned, and most of the Tudor's possessions were lost-with their influence once again refuced to the Taple and some cities on the east coast.

However their "conquest" of Ireland continued into the Stuarts; it was only really the Flight of the Earls (1607) which saw a real final end to any other order than England's in Ireland, and even then the years 1610-140 were anything but stable. Plantations continued to be burned down, anti-Catholic reforms completely disconnected the still present and powerful nobility from the government, and the only real government in Ireland was
>fuck you, catholics
>also we're taking more of your land
>wtf, stop rebelling
So in 1641 the coup attempt happened, it failed, the Confederacy was founded, and then Cromwell came and burned it down. Hence why the "Tudor Conquest" isn't really seen as Ireland "being conquered" but rather one of many historical attempts to do so-the Norman invasion being the main previous one, along with the Bruce campaign.

The Tudors came closer than anyone else, but it was absolutely Cromwell's lot that actually conquered the land-aka, ensured there was no power in Ireland other than that of England and those loyal to it. In the wake of the death of Elizabeth Tudor there were still large swathes of land that were de-facto independent or at war, with little English authority across much of the island, and an entrenched hostile nobility.
Anonymous No.17886399 >>17886491
>>17886078
How much of a revival do you think is possible?
Anonymous No.17886417 >>17886481
>>17886382
>the tudors didn't conquer ireland because there were rappaerees living in the woods and raiding
????
by those standards the normans didn't conquer england because there were a few saxons hiding out in the woods and burning castles
Anonymous No.17886481 >>17886506
>>>>17886417
>because there were rappaerees living in the woods and raiding
No, because at the time of the last Tudor monarch's death most of Ulster was still very much contested.

Hugh O'Neill had his lands and title restored to him-but retained his Gaelic title of the O'Neill, meaning that Tyrone (and a lot of other patches of Ulster) were very much in the hands of a powerful and quite hostile Gaelic Irish nobility.

There was mass uproar in James I's court as a result, because these were Irish leaders who had brought English influence in Ireland to the briunk of complete collapse. It was the gradual imposition of anti-Catholic laws and mounting hostility from the slowly growing English authorities in Ulster that pushed O'Neill to finally cut ties and go into exile like the rest did.

It wasn't "not conquered" because there were large bands of raiders/guerillas, it wasn't conquered because the remnants of the Irish Alliance still had total authority in their lands in Ulster with powerful armies under them for years after the Tudors. Like I said-it's why the Tudor Conqest bleeds into the Stuart era, and is not considered the point where Ireland was fully "conquered." That came with Cromwell.
Anonymous No.17886491 >>17888397
>>17886399
I (and most would tend to agree, especially those outside of Northern Ireland within the revival movement) see it as a situation where most will be able to speak Irish semi-fluently (aka, "Holiday Fluent", where they can get vital info and not much else) and it'll be spoken in patches regularly.

You'll notice over the next few years an increasing focus on simply swapping out English words for Irish ones as a habit; you already see this with mongolot English speakers still slipping in a "GRMA" or "le do thoil" in conversations, or a "slan" instead of a goodbye/seeya. MAYBE someday everyone will speak it completely fluently, but in our lifetimes that probably won't happen.

Ironically it will probably have a HUGE boost in Northern Ireland which might outpace the rest of Ireland.
Anonymous No.17886506 >>17886691
>>17886481
>the maori weren't conquered by the british because maori lords still owned land and had armies which they had authority over
>the zulu weren't conquered by the british because zulu lords still owned land and had armies which they had authority over
>scottish jacobites weren't conquered by the british because highland lairds still owned land and had armies which they had authority over
????
Anonymous No.17886680 >>17886814
>>17881684 (OP)
>Londonderry

>>17881705
>Like everyone else on those isles, they’re British (English 2.0).
Anonymous No.17886691 >>17886781 >>17886796
>>17886506
Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying anon. None of your examples are the same.

During the time of Elizabeth Tudor, the Nine Years War was yet to be resolved and the Irish Alliance was very much still in force. Mountjoy's efforts to bring onside Hugh O'Neill to try prevent another immediate rebellion were still ongoing. The Tudor conquest "ended" without the island conquered. It bled into the Stuarts, and it was them who oversaw the actual dismantling of the old Gaelic Order.

You could in a sense suggest therefore that maybe it was *technically* the Stuarts who did the job, but most say Cromwell simply because when he was done there was no authority in Ireland other than that of England-nor any alternative waiting to be restored.
Anonymous No.17886781 >>17886796 >>17886799
>>17886691
literally every historian accepts the fact that the tudor conquest and subsequent plantation led to the death of gaelic ireland apart from you for some weird reason
Anonymous No.17886796 >>17886802
>>17886691
>>17886781

>yfw the Ulster Plantation began with a conflict that resulted in the deaths of 3/4 of all fighting age men
>this would be like the USA losing 50 million men during an invasion
Anonymous No.17886799 >>17886817
>>17886781
Actually every historian notes that the Tudor conquest was riddled with problems until the end.

The "death of Gaelic Ireland" is the Flight of the Earls, which happened years after the Tudors-thanks largely to the policies of the Stuarts. It's sort of semantics, but the original context is who conquered Ireland and when-most would agree that the moment Ireland went from "Gaelic Ireland, colonised by England" to "Directly governed by England" was the Cromwellian Conquest. The "subsequent plantation" you refer to happened several years after Elizabeth died.
Anonymous No.17886802 >>17886810
>>17886796
Tyrone's Rebellion was no joke. Most underrated conflict in Irish military history.
Anonymous No.17886810 >>17886818
>>17886802
You ain't wrong.

I think the modern westerner doesn't really get how vicious and deliberate deaths by famine can be. In many cases people were literally prevented from working the fields, or food stores were burned to deny them to enemy civilians.
Anonymous No.17886814 >>17886832 >>17886848
>>17886680
The city was burnt down by taigs and rebuilt by the london company
How is the term londonderry wrong in any way? Why do the irish seethe so much at it?
Anonymous No.17886817 >>17886841
>>17886799
>years after the tudors
Bess died in 1603
The flight of the earls happened in 1607
That isn't exactly "years"
Anonymous No.17886818 >>17886841
>>17886810
Thank god the english won and gave the irish shakespeare and spenser and freed them from their popery
Anonymous No.17886832
>>17886814
BASED
The chiefs whereof, the following Parties be:
From Antrim the Macdonnels num'rous race,
From Glenwoods, the Ohagans came apace,
The Lord Macquhire from Enniskilling came,
The great Ocanes came from the River Bane;
Captain Talbot, Tirconnels nat'ral Son,
Then all the great Oneals out of Tyrone;
And Capt. Macdonnel, Colkittagh's Son.
The Earl himself was hast'ning hither too,
Threat'ning to force the City thereunto:
But all the Countrey gath'red in apace,
Fearing the Irish might surprize the place.
Then Master Hindman, Captain of the Guard,
To strengthen whom the Neighbours all repair'd;
Attackt this Party, as the City fir'd,
Then in disorder they in haste retir'd:
But this retreat such consternation bred,
That some with Arms and some without them fled.
The Earl himself, and the brave Lord Macquhire,
In greatest haste to Antrim did retire.
Londee being gone to Dublin at that hour,
They chose Squire Philips for their Governour:
Who in his Wisdom to their great content,
Prescrib'd to them a form of Government.
These things alarm'd the Irish Government,
In which matter much time and pains were spent.
My Lord Mountjoy to mediate came down,
Who plac'd Londee Governour of the Town.
My Lord did likewise beg the Towns consent,
T'admit six Comp'nies of his Regiment;
To perform duty with the City foot,
With much ado the Town consented to't.
Upon their Solemn Oath for to stand by,
The right of England, 'gainst all Popery.
March foll'wing they proclaim'd his Majesty,
The Popish Members of the City fly,
And all the City join'd in Loyalty.
Anonymous No.17886841 >>17886875
>>17886817
Yeah. Tudor conquests were;
>Henry says fuck the lordship, it's a kingdom now
>oh god, the fitzgeralds
>oh god, plantations failing
>oh god, it's all gone pear shaped
>okay, surrender and regrant time
>ulster stop being faggots
>oh god, they've declared war on us
>oh god, we're losing
>oh god, spain are coming
>holy fuck we didn't lose
>how will we deal with the irish alliance
>bess dies
Then
>James I arrives
>"wow, I sure hate dealing with these fucking ulsterfags"
>pardons for all of you, but first you have to abandon your irish titles
>okay, now hand over your armies
>okay, now swear loyalty to the crown of england
>english authorities arrive in Ulster at long last, replacing Brehon Law with English law
>tanistry replaced with primogeniture
>all gaelic titles abolished
>powerful gaelic sects broken up
>Treaty of London, thank fuck Spain aren't coming anymore
>oh no, O'Neill and the others are still rich and influential
>gunpowder plot happens
>big uptick in implementation of anti-catholic policies and more aggressive legal reforms
>try to finally neuter O'Neill and reign in Tyrone
>fails
>a plot emerges that the war will be resumed with Tyrone and Spain
>finally send in the troops
>Flight of the Earls

it isn't that 1603-1607 is a very long time, but it was a very significant period.
>>17886818
>freed them from their popery
But they didn't, the population never stopped being Catholic until after independence.
Anonymous No.17886848 >>17886857 >>17887408
>>17886814
>how is the term londonderry wrong in any way?
Irish people don't like it because it's a colonial name, with "London" added during the plantations-as you said.

Nobody in Derry calls it Londonderry, even the Loyalists call it Derry. The "Derry/Londonderry" debate is just for Belfastfags. Everyone here knows this-it's why all the businesses in Derry use "Foyle" to avoid offending non-Derry folk.
Anonymous No.17886857 >>17886887 >>17886894
>>17886848
If the irish don't like using the term londonderry they shouldn't have burnt down the original derry thus causing the name to be changed.
Anonymous No.17886865 >>17892363
>>17881684 (OP)
People were less literate back then. Once they realized how much bullshit Irish grammar is they ran the fuck away.
Anonymous No.17886875
>>17886841
The english freed them from popery and allowed the most open minded irish to convert to protestantism
THese joyful Stores the Irish army awe,
Then in the Night they silently withdraw;
In greatest haste to Dublin they return,
And all along our strongest Buildings burn.
They gather'd all the Papists from our coast,
And made them march along with th' Irish Host.
Then Kirk with th'English Troops his march commenc'd
From Inch, and to our ruin'd town advanc'd.
Sir Matthew Bridges House and Gardens all,
Were quite destroy'd by the En'my at Brookhall.
The large and spacious suburbs were burnt down,
Which was a great Detriment to the Town:
Their Houses and their Goods destroy'd were,
Both by the Booms and Cannon in the War.
Their fruitful Parks and Suburb-Gardens fell,
Them to the Ground the Enemy Levell.
Their Debitors were slain, and Debts were lost,
A hundred thousand pounds scarce quit the cost.
The rich Inhabitants were turn'd to poor,
Which liv'd like Princes on their wealth before.

In this Condition Kirk did see the T•••,
The truth whereof is to the world known.
Mitchelburn Governour he did Decree,
And sent great Walker to His Majesty;
Whose benign Stars did influence our heart,
And wa•mth and vigour to our Souls impart
His infant reign produc'd this noble act,
And yearly greater Trophies did contract:
Witness the Boyne, Athlone and dire Aghrim,
Lim'rick and all the Kingdom gain'd by him,
May fav'ring Heaven preserve his precious breath,
And lasting Lawrels round his Temples wreath?
THe Work is done, Apollo does presage
The Success of it, in the future Age.
Zoilus himself dare not the Actions blame:
The Author values not a Poets Fame.
He wrote it for the sober Men of Sense;
Not for the Beau's or Wits Intelligence.
If Jove and they approve the former Words:
His Hero's will defend it with their Swords.
Anonymous No.17886879
>>17884559
Their schools are entirely Welsh in the mornings and entirely English in the afternoons apparently, seems like a good system to keep everyone there bilingual. The south is content as an English annex though, I don't think they bother with Welsh, only north Wales (best Wales) does.
Anonymous No.17886887 >>17886898
>>17886857
Do you think the English invaders would have given up and gone home if Derry wasn't burned?
Anonymous No.17886894 >>17886898
>>17886857
Derry comes from Doire, meaning oak wood. London Oak Wood is a bit silly, since it's nowhere near London.
>shouldn't have burnt down the original derry
The guy who burnt it down had sided with the Crown during the Nine Years War. He had aided England's campaigns against the Irish alliance and was suggested for a knighthood.

The guy in question (Cahir O'Doherty) was then arrested and tried for treason with zero evidence. He was abused by the English nobility and his reputation ruined, despite not being charged in the end. English leaders continued to mock and undermine him until he became so disillusioned with England that he rebelled-and burned down Derry.

So perhaps, as ever, England shouldn't have been a bunch of retards.
Anonymous No.17886898
>>17886887
>>17886894
The english would have never changed the name if it hadn't been burnt down
>england shouldn't have been a bunch of retards
the english were giving the world shakespeare and spenser while you were crying for the spanish and italians to help you from them
Anonymous No.17887408 >>17888397
>>17886848
nah fuck you I love colonialism, I’ll call it londonderry
Anonymous No.17887506
>>17881684 (OP)
>>the english suppressed the irish language for over 700 years
cope
Anonymous No.17887869 >>17888349 >>17888397 >>17891615
>>17884750
>>17884750
>>17884795
>>17884855

Gaelic is effectively dead, the modern language has no L1 speakers and it uses English's extremely distinctive stress timing and devoicing systems. Ancient/Medieval Gaelic speakers wouldn't understand the modern accent or they would just interpret it as English.
Anonymous No.17888349 >>17888397
>>17887869
Why is it a subject in schools?
Anonymous No.17888397 >>17889522
>>17887869
>Gaelic
*Gaeilge, as Irish people know it is called, is indeed unrecogniseable to what Ancient/Medieval speakers would have understood. Just like speakers in the 1300s wouldn't have made much sense to those in the 9th Century, and those in the 1700s wouldn't have made much sense of those speaking it in the 16th century.
>>17888349
Because despite the state's complete apathy towards it, the idea is that as long as most kids at least recognise very basic phrases/terms then it will never truly die.

Most signs are bilingual (Irish/English) already. This is why my belief (and again, the beliefs of most of those trying to revive it) is that the best case scenario is >>17886491. There'll never be a mongolot Irish speaking Ireland again-but the prevelance of Irish will inevitably go on the rise as little bits of it are worked into everyday language.

Most likely it'll be like one of those post-colonial places where everyone speaks English but phrases like yes/no/please/thanks/hello/goodbye etc are often in Irish.
>>17887408
If English colonial history in Ireland interests you I would highly recommend the following;
>Colonial Ulster: The Settlement of East Ulster (Gillespie)
>Cambridge History of Ireland (specifically Volume 2)
Anonymous No.17888426
They should call London Londondelhi instead
Anonymous No.17889519
How can they revive gaeilge?
Anonymous No.17889522 >>17890588
>>17888397
Do you think a bilingual ireland would be possible like how 20% of wales primarily speaks welsh?
Anonymous No.17890588
>>17889522
Maybe someday? I don't see a situation arriving in our lifetimes where everyone in Ireland is fluent in Irish, nor even a majority.

I think it's far more likely that the whole "Hiberno-English" thing will shift slightly to include more Irish in common phrases. It's already common for mongolot English speaking Irish parents to communicate with their kids in mostly English, but throwing in Irish for stuff like "please" or "thank you" etc.

ie; "Would you come upstairs, le do thoil?" I think most likely that's where we're headed. It'd be from that point that a truly bilingual Ireland would grow.
Anonymous No.17891615 >>17891675
>>17887869
It would still be a good thing to revive it. Knowing two languages is good for you, and it makes it easier to learn a third or subsequent language. And like I said in an earlier post, it would help Ireland be more independent of the Anglosphere, the Eurosphere, and the western world in general, which would be a good thing by itself as well.

Of course any modern Irish revival would be full of English-isms, as well as American-isms and internet-isms. That's fine, it's a language that is being remade in the modern age, so it's going to reflect the world around it.

The Irish accent and way of speaking 'Hibernian English' has brought a lot of Irish-isms with it anyway.
Anonymous No.17891675 >>17891739
>>17891615
Sure it would be a good thing to revive it, but a revival is not realistic, at all.
Anonymous No.17891739 >>17891862
>>17891675
I'm not too optimistic about it actually happening, but I think it's still fairly achievable, might be expensive but would be worth it.

The window of opportunity is fading fast though, a revival in fifty years would no longer be possible. At that time it would essentially be a 'conlang' (constructed language) almost entirely.

The tragedy is that there was a such an oral tradition in Irish that has already been lost. That's not all there is to a language but it sucks that we lost it.
Anonymous No.17891862
>>17891739
It would be ridiculously expensive. If you're going to make Gaelic the language of education across Ireland, the only way to revive it that could theoretically work as far as I'm aware, you would need to increase every teachers salary by like 1000% just to ensure that there are still enough people who want to be teachers.
Anonymous No.17892363 >>17892377
>Why did they abandon their language despite keeping it alive for over half a millennium?
Urban Immigration

>Why was there no revival?
Because they had no authoritarian founding father after independence, who cultivated his people in his image. IIRC the few potential candidates for that role were all killed. Instead Catholicism became their default identity and the moment Catholicism lost it's cultural influence, they instantly became globalists shit-libs, who pushed for low Corporate taxes, abortion and gay marriage, because that ideology simply overwhelmed them.

>Speaking the language of your enemy instead of your native language means you have lost.
It doomed Irish Nationalism to be forever a left-wing phenomenon. People like Keith Woods are too fringe. He has no electoral power.

>>17886865
Then just reform the language. You can just do things.
Anonymous No.17892377
>>17892363
>Because they had no authoritarian founding father after independence, who cultivated his people in his image
Anonymous No.17892383
They did a shit job at reutilizing Gaelic after independence