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Thread 17896179

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Anonymous No.17896179 >>17896332 >>17896374 >>17897030 >>17897040 >>17897518 >>17898089
Modern physics has revealed, with increasing precision, that material reality is very different from how we commonly perceive it. What we call "matter", objects, bodies, the world around us, is actually composed of atoms that are almost entirely empty space. The nucleus of the atom, tiny relative to its total volume, is formed by particles called protons and neutrons, which, in turn, are composed of quarks. These particles are not "solid things," but patterns of energy sustained by invisible forces, such as gluons. Furthermore, particles like quarks and electrons are, as far as we know, indivisible and structureless, not solid blocks, but probabilistic entities that only fully "exist" in relation to others.

Some theories, such as string theory, suggest that these fundamental particles are not actual "points" but rather tiny vibrating strings of energy, whose vibration determines the type of particle. Even without this theory, the Standard Model of physics already shows that matter, at its most fundamental level, is composed of elements that lack solid substance and are relational, energetic phenomena that only exist in interaction with others. Thus, the solidity of reality reveals itself to be an illusion of perception: what we see as "things" are merely transient groupings of particles empty of essence.

This panorama of contemporary physics resonates deeply with the Buddhist doctrine of Pratītyasamutpāda, or dependent origination, which asserts that nothing exists by itself, independently. Everything that appears is the result of interconnected causes and conditions. Just as a flower depends on the earth, water, light, and the observer, so too the "self," objects, and events are composite and, therefore, empty of their own essence (niḥsvabhāva). This absence of intrinsic nature is what Mahāyāna Buddhism calls śūnyatā, "emptiness."
Anonymous No.17896183 >>17896332
Nāgārjuna, the great Mahāyāna philosopher and founder of the Madhyamaka school, demonstrated that because all phenomena are dependently originated (pratītyasamutpāda), they have no fixed or substantial existence. And precisely for this reason, they are "empty." Nāgārjuna states with radical clarity: "Samsara is not different from Nirvana. Nirvana is not different from Samsara." The duality between the conditioned world (samsara) and liberation (nirvana) arises only from ignorance. When the mind sees things as having essence, it wanders in samsara; when it recognizes the emptiness of all dharmas, it realizes nirvana, which is, in truth, the same reality, only seen with wisdom.

Physics, by revealing that matter is made of entities without solid substance, whose existence depends on fields, interactions, and relationships, and that even space and time are not absolute but relative and emergent, approaches the Buddhist view that the world is a network of interdependencies empty of their own essence. The illusion of separation, solidity, and permanence is the fruit of conditioned perception, not ultimate reality.

In Vajrayana, this is furthered in practice: techniques such as dzogchen, mahamudra, and phowa train the practitioner to directly recognize that the nature of the mind is empty and luminous, and that samsara itself, with all its sufferings and forms, is the inseparable manifestation of this dynamic emptiness. Thus, liberation is not escaping the world, but recognizing its true nature: the freedom of emptiness that has never been bound.

Thus, both modern physics and Madhyamaka philosophy point, in different ways, to the same conclusion: what we see as solid, separate, and substantial is ultimately interdependent, impermanent, and empty. And recognizing this, in Buddhism, is not just an intellectual exercise; it is awakening.
Anonymous No.17896332 >>17896369 >>17897040 >>17897518
>>17896179 (OP)
>>17896183
Nice try, buddhism has alot of right intuitions about reality but you cant see through illusions

You can know that the solid table in front of you is a 99.9% empty space of probabilities but it still appears as a solid table before you. In much the same vein, you can never remove the experience of separation, suffering and permanence through enlightenment alone

Unity of all things in the goal to end suffering but the methods to achieve it require a fundamental change in reality, not mere neuron structures
Anonymous No.17896369 >>17896484
>>17896332
You say enlightenment can’t dissolve suffering because the world still appears solid, yet you trust that very appearance to define what is real. You cling to the illusion of separation while claiming to see through it. But all that arises does so dependently, without essence and because of that, samsara and nirvana are not two. They are the same empty display, seen through different eyes. You start from the right place, knowing the table is 99.9% empty, but then cling to the illusion it casts as your final truth. That 0.1% is not the particle itself, it’s your point of view clinging to form. The particle has no awareness of itself, no boundary, no separation; it exists only through relation, through dependent arising.

That is your inversion. You use emptiness to argue for permanence and interdependence to justify essence. You call unity a dream because you still believe the separation was ever real.
Anonymous No.17896374 >>17896474
>>17896179 (OP)
What is the snake Buddha reference to?
t. moron
Anonymous No.17896453 >>17896604
If Nirvana and Samsara are one, then both existence and emptiness are one.

While we can affirm the ultimate reality of emptiness, we still have to affirm that while occupying our human consciousness we are bound by material existence.

If you're truly enlightened then you should have just phased out of existence by now. Why are you still posting on 4chan?
Anonymous No.17896474
>>17896374
that is nagarjuna
he's often portrayed with snake or naga (indian snake spirit) iconography

his name comes from sanskrit roots that means something like "snake standing straight up" or "snake king" and in chinese is written 龍樹 "dragon tree" or "serpent tree"
Anonymous No.17896484 >>17896604
>>17896369
Appearances may not define whats real but appearances themselves are real. It may not have an essence just like the colour red depends on the apple to appear but its very much real. Trying to remove that which is real is crazy talk

Even ignoring that, your goal is absurd to begin with, you know theres no essence in anything but think theres an essence of yourself that can cease to exist
Anonymous No.17896604 >>17896612 >>17896645
>>17896453
You’re confusing emptiness with self-annihilation (vibhava-tanhā/ucchedavāda) and nirvana with a
eternalist escapism (bhava-tanhā/sassatavāda). Emptiness doesn’t mean disappearing from material appearance, it means seeing that appearance was never truly material to begin with. You're still trapped in dualistic thinking: Either you're "bound by form" or you've "phased out of existence." That’s the very illusion enlightenment dispels. The enlightened don't vanish, they stop mistaking the movie for the screen.

Even the Buddha, after his awakening under the Bodhi tree, continued to walk, eat, speak, teach and eventually die. He didn’t float into some abstract void; he lived within the world, but not bound by it. His death came through food poisoning, not transcendental disappearance, because enlightenment isn’t an escape from form, it’s the direct realization that form is already empty. If you’re waiting for awakened beings to evaporate before you take them seriously, you’re still worshiping illusion.

>>17896484
To say that "appearances are real" is merely to change the name of reification. You admit that they have no essence, but still insist on treating them as possessing some kind of independent reality, this is the error Nāgārjuna points out. In Madhyamaka, appearance is not denied, but is empty of intrinsic existence (svabhāva). The color blue and red does not exist by itself; it depends on causes, conditions, perception, and linguistic conventions.
Anonymous No.17896612 >>17896714
>>17896604
Vajrayāna goes further: It shows that appearances themselves are expressions of emptiness, like a rainbow, visible but inappropriable, without substance. And as for the "I" that wants to cease to exist, this is a misunderstanding I already explained above: there is no substantial self to be extinguished, only the attachment to an illusory self. Liberation is not the end of a "something," but the direct recognition that this "something" never existed as previously thought. It is precisely about stopping clinging to the false solidity of appearances, not denying them, but freeing them.

The name of this doctrine is Śūnyatā-prabhāsvara (emptiness-luminosity), a central tenet of Vajrayana. It asserts that since śūnyatā (emptiness) is the absence of existence inherent in all phenomena, prabhāsvara (luminosity) is the clear, bright, and cognitive nature of the mind. Together, they reveal that all appearances, sounds, forms, and thoughts, are dynamic manifestations of lucid emptiness.

In Vajrayana, this is the basis of practice with mandalas, mantras, and visualizations of deities, which are not illusions to be denied, but pure forms of emptiness in sacred expression. This vision transcends the dualism between "real" and "unreal." Everything is real as dependent and empty appearance, and at the same time, nothing is real in the sense of fixed existence.
Anonymous No.17896645 >>17896767
>>17896604
And you're still just talking in particular human turns assigned by the specific religion you are following.

You too are living in both duality and non-duality. Christian tradition professes both dualism (our existince is separate from God) and monism (God permeates and exists within everything).

In the Christian mystical tradition, God is ultimately unknowable and Non-existent. The material world is just a reflection of the spiritual world, and the spiritual world is ultimately formless. "God" as the ultimate reality in Christianity is emptiness to put it in your terminology. Whether you see emptiness in Buddhism, or you see God in Christianity, we're talking about the same things ultimately.
Anonymous No.17896714 >>17896767
>>17896612
If the essence of the self does not exist then what has attachment to the illusory self. Desire? Doesnt really make sense since attachment itself is desire. Knowledge? Knowledge itself has no desires. The world? Its the only thing i know that fits

A tiny part of the world that makes up the structure of you. Regardless of what it achieves, the rest of the world does not change and there is no divide from between that small part of the world and the rest. Not to mention that small part is going to reshaped again in due time.

Functionally, (you) which is (i) achieve nothing through your efforts unless the whole world achieves that result. A meaningless struggle
Anonymous No.17896767 >>17896811 >>17896816 >>17897155
>>17896645
You're conflating two fundamentally distinct ontologies. In Christian theology, Genesis 1 makes it crystal clear: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and void". This void, the Hebrew tohu va vohu, is not God. It's what God creates. The text then says, "Let there be light," and separates light from darkness. That means what was just “created” is still undifferentiated, without structure, form, or identity, including the heavens. There’s no sky yet, no firmament; the “earth” is not ground, and the “heavens” are not above. Both are part of the same tohu vavohu, chaotic potential, not actuality. It is into this formless substrate that God speaks: “Let there be light.” And here’s the key, God separates the light from the darkness. That act of separation is the beginning of ordered reality. So God is not the void, the darkness and even light, God is the source of all these things that transcends both and brings distinction where none existed separated.

>>17896714
Attachment doesn’t arise from a self with essence, but from habitual pattern, conditioned processes without inherent ground. Desire doesn’t need a self to possess it, it functions through the echo of grasping habits, looping in absence. The illusion persists not because someone is trapped, but because ignorance keeps mistaking reflections for reality, that’s the wheel of samsara.

Saying that "you don't change anything unless the world changes" stems from an illusory dualism between "you" and "the world". This separation is precisely the illusion. Transforming your mind is transforming the world, because the two were never separate. Ultimately, thinking that something is only valuable if it affects the whole is a mistake. Liberation does not depend on scale, but on lucidity.
Anonymous No.17896811 >>17896941
>>17896767
Ive had enough with you, foul demon. Every single time you say ive said something, its the exact opposite of what i said. Not even a regular strawman like normal ass people do, quite literally the exact opposite
I could say the weather was hot and you would say "despite your insistence on the weather being cold blah blah blah"

Prepare to die to death
Anonymous No.17896816 >>17896941
>>17896767
Ontology is a illusion constructed by us and is steeped in our own particulars. If you cannot see past ontology into the one essence (or emptiness if you prefer) of different religions, then you are simply not enlightened.
Anonymous No.17896941 >>17897004
>>17896811
Hmpf... Pathetic. You dare raise your voice against me, believing that words shape destiny? You dare announce my death, as if the winds of karma did not carry their own sealed fate. Die? Me? Who took the Bodhisattva Vow, has mastered the Phowa and projects consciousness like a flaming bolt through the crown? Who rides the central channel like lightning, cutting through the veil of illusion? You speak of killing a Ngakpa Bonpo who is one step away from becoming a Gyalpo Preta like Dorje Shugden, the one who converses with the lords of the six realms, who sits with the preta at impure banquets, who debates dharma with devas to the sound of cosmic flutes and faces the asura without a flicker of an eyelid. When men dissolve in fear, I remain. When worlds collapse, I pass through. You cannot kill what has transcended birth. You cannot bury what was never made of earth. Now come, you icchantika. Bring your hatred, your sword, your inverted rhetoric. But know this: While you debate the weather, I manipulate the winds of samsara. So, if you want war, let it be war of the worlds. But don't forget. I already saw your end, even before you began to speak.

>>17896816
Ontology is a clear and luminous manifestation of the essential emptiness of reality, the form that the absence of fixed existence assumes when things appear but are not. Especially because we can create an ontology of ontology itself, that is, a system that explains and organizes the very concepts we use to understand reality. For example, metaphilosophy is an ontology of philosophy, it investigates the categories, concepts, and structures that philosophy itself uses to describe the world.

The true illusion lies in the attachment to these forms as if they were fixed and independent, not in the manifestation itself, which is empty and full of life at the same time. Saying it is "beyond ontology" sounds nice, but in practice it simply creates another ontology disguised as negation, midwit.
Anonymous No.17897004
>>17896941
You really are embarrassing lmao.
Anonymous No.17897030 >>17897047 >>17897488
>>17896179 (OP)
>matter is energy and empty space so my made up magic bullshit is real
Kek. I will never not love seething faggot idiots like this that take not knowing shit about science and smashing in their theology desperately trying to make it fit.
Anonymous No.17897040
>>17896179 (OP)
>>17896332
I am not sure what you mean by solidity being an illusion. I get that we might intuitively assume that matter is different from how it actually is in some ways, e.g. we might assume it's a lot more dense. But ultimately even if a table is mostly empty space, it is still solid because it retains its shape, you can put things on it and they don't fall through and so on.
Anonymous No.17897047 >>17897051
>>17897030
Anon, I...

>Murray Gell-Mann (/ˈmʌri ˈɡɛl ˈmæn/; September 15, 1929 – May 24, 2019) was a US theoretical physicist who played a preeminent role in the development of the theory of elementary particles. Gell-Mann introduced the concept of quarks as the fundamental building blocks of the strongly interacting particles, and the renormalization group as a foundational element of quantum field theory and statistical mechanics. Murray Gell-Mann received the 1969 Nobel Prize in Physics for his contributions and discoveries concerning the classification of elementary particles and their interactions

>Gell-Mann was born in Lower Manhattan to a family of Jewish immigrants from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, specifically from Czernowitz in present-day Ukraine

>Murray Gell-Mann's fortunate encounter with mathematician Richard Earl Block at Caltech, in the fall of 1960, "enlightened" him to introduce a novel classification scheme, in 1961, for hadrons. A similar scheme had been independently proposed by Yuval Ne'eman, and has come to be explained by the quark model. Gell-Mann referred to the scheme as the eightfold way, because of the octets of particles in the classification (the term is a reference to the Eightfold Path of Buddhism)
Anonymous No.17897051 >>17897059
>>17897047
>In 1991, Epstein was one of four donors who pledged to raise US$2 million for a Hillel student building Rosovsky Hall at Harvard University. In the 1990s Epstein donated $10,000 to the White House Historical Association. In 2000, Epstein established the Jeffrey Epstein VI Foundation, which funds science research and education. Prior to 2003, the foundation funded Martin Nowak's research at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey. In May 2003, Epstein pledged a series of donations totaling US$30 million to create a mathematical biology and evolutionary dynamics program at Harvard which was run by Martin Nowak. According to The Boston Globe, the actual amount received from Epstein was US$6.5 million. In 2019, Forbes deleted a 2013 article that called Epstein "one of the largest backers of cutting edge science" after The New York Times revealed its author, Drew Hendricks, had been paid $600 to submit it falsely as his own

>According to attorney Gerald B. Lefcourt, Epstein was "part of the original group that conceived of the Clinton Global Initiative" and in 2006 he donated $25,000 to the Clinton Foundation. Epstein co-organized a science event with illusionist and skeptic Al Seckel called the Mindshift Conference. The conference took place in 2010 on Epstein's private island Little Saint James

>In attendance were scientists Murray Gell-Mann, Leonard Mlodinow, and Gerald Jay Sussman. The true extent of Epstein's donations is unknown. The Jeffrey Epstein VI Foundation fails to disclose information which other charities routinely disclose. Concerns have been raised over this lack of transparency. In 2015, the Attorney General of the state of New York was reported to be trying to gain information but was refused since the charities were based outside of the state and did not solicit in New York State
Anonymous No.17897059
>>17897051
The Gyalwang Drukpa, leader of one of the schools of Vajrayana Buddhism, with Ghislaine Maxwell.
Anonymous No.17897090
Brazilanon, you are far and away the best poster on all of 4chan.
Anonymous No.17897155 >>17897400 >>17897489
>>17896767
God doesnt exist and even if God existed, he'd know that free will and choice doesn't exist. The human brains of all individuals on this planet are made of the very same matter that obeys either classical (determinate) or quantum (random) physics. Therefore, all decisions made by you and me are not a product of "free will" but just a biological system responding to stimuli + its own internal entropy. If there is a God, really, the he'd know this. Therefore he cannot "punish" me. Consciousness isn't free will, it is the act of experiencing the effect of a decision once its already been made. The self isnt real, try smashing your frontal lobe and see what part of you is retained.
Anonymous No.17897298
I thought you were dead
glad to see you are still posting
Anonymous No.17897400 >>17897599
>>17897155
>The self isnt real, try smashing your frontal lobe and see what part of you is retained

The brain is still a physical organ made up of empty atoms, electrical impulses, fluids and it only functions within a living body, supported by a nervous, hormonal, and cardiac system. The brain alone is useless. It is not transplantable. Unlike the heart, the first organ to form in a fetus, which can be donated and continues beating outside the body, the brain only functions in synchronicity with the whole. This already dismantles the idea that the mind/self is limited to the brain. Consciousness is broader, more integrated, and directly dependent on other parts of the body that express and mediate our senses, the eyes for sight, the nose for smell, the mouth for taste, the skin for touch, and the ears for hearing. Without these channels, the brain doesn't "know" what to process. In other words, conscious experience emerges from the complex interaction between body and mind and, by all indications, is not limited to deterministic brain function.

Furthermore, consciousness is not evenly distributed throughout the brain. We know that experiences such as self-awareness, intuition, aesthetic emotion, compassion, etc., involve specific and highly integrated areas. Behavioural psychology is actually scientific and proven to work, look up Skinner and Pavlov.

Near-death experiences challenge the thesis that consciousness depends exclusively on brain activity. There are documented cases in which patients have lucid, structured experiences while clinically dead, with no measurable electrical activity in the brain. And even scientifically speaking, we don't use 100% of our brain's capacity. This isn't a myth: even if it is "active," we don't fully access the neural potential for altered states, deep intuition, spiritual cognition, etc. In other words, not even the ultimate material reality you idolize is fully accessed.
Anonymous No.17897488
>>17897030
>it's magic because I'm an anti-intellectual jew
good to know
Anonymous No.17897489
>>17897155
>muh free will
>le entropy
Lol, midwit.
Anonymous No.17897510 >>17898429 >>17899004
So, where do I get started on this buddhism thing
Anonymous No.17897518 >>17898061 >>17898079
>>17896332
>>17896179 (OP)
It’s not empty space with a probability of a particle existing in it, it’s a field with a probability of a particle existing but other particles are excluded from said field due to Pauli exclusion principle.
Calling it empty space is retarded intentionally trippy misstated science.
If it’s so empty put another fucking electron in it more than two. It’s hand waving “we r all stardust” horseshit science and I’m sick of people fucking saying this.
Anonymous No.17897599
>>17897400
>There are documented cases in which patients have lucid, structured experiences while clinically dead, with no measurable electrical activity in the brain.
No one has ever explained to me how you can verify that such an experience happened while there was no brain activity, as opposed to before or after, while the patient is unconscious but with brain activity.
Anonymous No.17898061
>>17897518
This is clearly wrong to anyone who knows about neutron stars. If the materials we see in day to day life werent mostly made of empty space, how could neutron stars possibly be trillions of times denser than earth if there was no empty space to squeeze matter together?
Anonymous No.17898079 >>17898093
>>17897518
>we r all stardust

This is just correct, retard. The only difference between Earth and everything on it, the Sun, and a black hole is mass and gravitational pressure. You've huffed so much contrarianism you think Neil deGrasse Tyson saying water exists is pop science.
Anonymous No.17898089
>>17896179 (OP)
Didn't Schopenhauer basically say this in World As Will?
Anonymous No.17898093
>>17898079
> You've huffed so much contrarianism you think Neil deGrasse Tyson saying water exists is pop science.
I think a lot of people are just afraid to call a spade a spade because they think it'll just trivialize their own existence into "just a bunch of elementary particles", which is a really stupid way to think to be clear, there's no reason you have to let the facts of reality trivialize it for you.
Anonymous No.17898429
>>17897510
If you seek a Buddhist path of self-knowledge, self-discipline, and contemplative solitude, without necessarily being bound by formal masters, rituals, or schools, the path of Pratyekabuddha is your raft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna

https://archive.org/details/BhanteWalpolaRahulaWhatTheBuddhaTaught

Read the writings of olfactoryanon in 4plebs for a solid basis on the fundamentals of meditation. The path of rigor is the surest path to success.
Anonymous No.17899004
>>17897510
https://www.reddit.com/r/HillsideHermitage/wiki/virtue/
Anonymous No.17900181 >>17901273
>The world isn't real trust me bro
>It's all a magic spell that you can dispel if you just don't think really really hard
>If you don't you'll be reincarnated (because the human soul is actually real except for the times when I say it isn't)
>You need to stop existing because being alive means that at some point you might possibly be even slightly unhappy for some reason and death is a preferable alternative to maybe crying every once in a while
>No I don't have any evidence for this and worked backwards from a pre-assumed position, why do you ask?
Anonymous No.17900771 >>17901273
>They assume, also, that the reader s sole interest in the Pali Suttas is a concern for his own welfare. The reader is presumed to be subjectively engaged with an anxious problem, the problem of his existence, which is also the problem of his suffering. There is therefore nothing in these pages to interest the professional scholar, for whom the question of personal existence does not arise; for the scholar s whole concern is to eliminate or ignore the individual point of view in an effort to establish the objective truth a would-be impersonal synthesis of public facts. The scholar s essentially horizontal view of things, seeking connexions in space and time, and his historical approach to the texts, disqualify him from any possibility of understanding a Dhamma that the Buddha himself has called akalika, timeless . Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha s Teaching. But human kind, it seems, cannot bear very much reality: men, for the most part, draw back in alarm and dismay from this vertiginous direct view of being and seek refuge in distractions.
Ven. Ñanavira

You might find this video discussing right view interesting:
>https://youtu.be/9LLOSZsOIt0
Anonymous No.17901273 >>17901347
>>17900181
>>17900771
Theravada tradition was entirely created within the last 200 years by a Thai king that was strongly influenced by Protestant Christianity.

https://vividness.live/the-king-of-siam-invents-western-buddhism

For over a thousand years the "Theravada" tradition was referred by the Mahayana sect as "Shravaka" which means "hearer" because they had entirely lost both the ability to read the language of Pali and the ability to meditate. All they did was chant small portions of their holy texts in a language they couldn't understand, in the hopes that this would grant them salvation.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/how-early-buddhism-differs-from-theravada-a-checklist/23019

Mahayana Buddhism on the other hand is entirely apocryphal and largely Chinese in origin. The Maha Prajnaparamita Sutra for example was written in bad Sanskrit by a Chinaman many centuries after the Buddha died.

https://jayarava.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-heart-sutra-and-crisis-in-buddhist.html?m=1
Anonymous No.17901347
>>17901273
>Theravada tradition was entirely created within the last 200 years
From what I understand the Theravada tradition is the one that compiled and made sure to comserve the Pali Canon.

I'm not sure what you are pointing at with your post. The suttas are there, the gradual training is explained and there are people I believe concisely & accurately disclose how to go about it based on the suttas.


https://www.hillsidehermitage.org/sila-is-samadhi/


I'm not a Noble One and as one sutta says: one that is still stuck in the mud can't help another get out of the mud before first getting oneself out, but I think this is the best explanation of the suttas and the one that makes sense the most.