Thread 17905789

Islam view on destiny and free will is better than the christian view, it make more sense
Everything is predetermined fate but your free will can decide which of that predetermined fate you get

Terrible bait
try again next time

>>17905792
>bait
I'm serious though

>>17905798
even worse

>>17905789 (OP)
Free will isn't real

>>17906021
What is wrong with the idea though?
You eat something unhealthy, you get sick, you decide to go to doctor and take medicine, you decide not to do so, your condition get worse and you die
You decide to avoid eating the unhealthy food, you avoided the entire bad string of fate
It fits well with action and consequence, everything is predetermined and your free will decide what you will get
>>17906025
It is very real anon

>posts Lutheranism
Calvinism is better. (fact) People don't save themselves God does and He decides.

>>17905789 (OP)
>but your free will can decide which of that predetermined fate you get
That's not true according to Islam. According to the hadith, Allah MAKES people do evil so that he can send them to Hell:

"Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing evil deeds characteristic of the people of the Hell Fire." - https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3208

And:
"Allah has written for the son of Adam his inevitable share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not". - https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6612

Islam is completely deterministic and explicitly says that whether you go to Hell or not was decided before your birth.

>>17906305
The Hadith culture in Islam is full of garbage, many hadiths were made up to justify the bad behaviors of rulers and clergymen and make excuses for them
Let go to the Quran
https://quran.com/57/22
Alhaded 57:22
The Iron (57:22)
مَآ أَصَابَ مِن مُّصِيبَةٍۢ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ وَلَا فِىٓ أَنفُسِكُمْ إِلَّا فِى كِتَـٰبٍۢ مِّن قَبْلِ أَن نَّبْرَأَهَآ ۚ إِنَّ ذَٰلِكَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ يَسِيرٌۭ ٢٢
No calamity ˹or blessing˺ occurs on earth or in yourselves without being ˹written˺ in a Record before We bring it into being. This is certainly easy for Allah.
Fate is predetermined

https://quran.com/7/28
Alaaraf 7:28
The Heights (7:28)
وَإِذَا فَعَلُوا۟ فَـٰحِشَةًۭ قَالُوا۟ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَآ ءَابَآءَنَا وَٱللَّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يَأْمُرُ بِٱلْفَحْشَآءِ ۖ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ ٢٨
Whenever they commit a shameful deed,they say, “We found our forefathers doing it and Allah has commanded us to do it.” Say, “No! Allah never commands what is shameful. How can you attribute to Allah what you do not know?”
Allah doesn't force anyone to do vice or bad behaviors

>>17906232
>It is very real anon
I am skeptical about the existence of free will in an atheistic world but I'm fucking certain that free will does not exist in an Abrahamic worldview.
Free will is defined as the ability to act without the constraints of necessity or fate. If there's a fucking all knowing deity who formed you in your mother's womb and knows every fucking decision you will ever make and places stimuli in your path to guide you down that path, that is fucking fate. There is literally no way to have free will unless you can somehow surprise God, in which case he's not omniscient, which directly goes against every scripture. It is literally impossible to believe you have free will if you truly believe there's a god who is in control over everything. The Calvinists are the only people who make a convincing argument in regards to the notion of man's ability to have any control over his ultimate destination.

>>17905789 (OP)
islam is a pile of shit

>>17906575
Free will in Islam means Gods doesn't force you to think and decide in the way he want, you question his existence or decisions because he gave you the freedom to do so

>>17906730
This directly contradicts the book itself because it outright says that Allah enlightens those who he chooses to enlighten and everyone else was selected for damnation.

Determinism isn't real

>>17906540
In Islam there's a difference between Allah commanding something - which is explicitly ordering you to do something through a messenger - and Allah having decreed that you will do something.

It's a self-contradictory mess but that's how they make sense of it.

>>17905789 (OP)
Is she doing puzzles? I don't see any opening on that board

>>17906232
>It is very real anon
Prove it then

>>17907071
Cirno is dumb, that's the joke. She probably thinks playing go is making a fun silly line

>>17906841
>This directly contradicts the book itself because it outright says that Allah enlightens those who he chooses to enlighten and everyone else was selected for damnation
How ? He aids those who want his aid

>>17906964
>>17907087
Not an argument

>>17907170
If you don't believe me read this incomprehensible attempt at an answer:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/264354/reconciling-the-divine-decree-and-free-will

"You make free choices but Allah makes you make those free choices the way you do" is the summary. Like I said: self-contradictory and incomprehensible.

>>17907359
I already posted the Quran parts that proves the point I'm trying to make and like the second part just answer and disprove your argument

Allah is not forcing anyone in anyway to commit sins, he doesn't make decrees or commands to commit sins

The interpretation in the article is a very bad attempt to defend what I explained in my post, "The Hadith culture in Islam is full of garbage, many hadiths were made up to justify the bad behaviors of rulers and clergymen and make excuses for them", it is a bad interpretation that contradict the Quran
Almodather (74:18-20)
إِنَّهُ فَكَّرَ وَ قَدَّرَ فَقُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ ثُمَّ قُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّر
He thought and planned, so he was killed. How did he plan? Then he was killed. How did he plan?

The Quran explicitly state the you have the ability to think independently and freely, "Allah making you think the way he want and tricking you into thinking it is your free will when is it not" is a bad argument and an excuse for people who want to say they did bad things because Allah wanted them to do it and we returned back to the second square of my post >>17906540
Everything is predetermined fate but your choices decide what fate are you going to get

>>17907700
>I already posted the Quran parts that proves the point I'm trying to make
And sahih hadith completely disagree with you. Completely. If your interpretation is at odds with the sunnah, then Islam disregards your interpretation.

>Allah is not forcing anyone in anyway to commit sins, he doesn't make decrees or commands to commit sins
Muhammad himself says that Allah very much does in the hadith we examined: >>17906305

>it is a bad interpretation that contradict the Quran
Are you trying to advocate for Koran-only Islam? Won't work. There's a reason the actual practice of Islam comes far more from the sunnah than from the Koran. Tell me anon, without using the hadith: how are you supposed to pray?

>He thought and planned, so he was killed. How did he plan? Then he was killed. How did he plan?
Per the hadith whatever a person plans, Allah already wrote for them to plan. Allah, himself, personally, decided what everyone would do and where they would end up down to the slightest detail.

>Everything is predetermined fate but your choices decide what fate are you going to get
Your choices are predetermined. The hadith makes this extremely clear. Absolutely everything, even what you do, is determined from the beginning by Allah.

>>17907722
>And sahih hadith completely disagree with you. Completely. If your interpretation is at odds with the sunnah, then Islam disregards your interpretation.
I'm sorry but you seem to have a clear and profound misunderstanding here...
sahih hadith = Sunnah, is just too wrong these books were written like 2 centuries after the prophet they are not the "unquestionable truth" without talking about them being rejected by other Muslim groups like shia and ofc any Hadith that contradict the Quran should be discarded not the other way around
And we returned to the same square, "not an argument"

>>17907745
You didn't answer my question. Without using a hadith, tell me: how are you supposed to pray?

>>17905789 (OP)
>Everything is predetermined fate but your free will can decide which of that predetermined fate you get
logically incoherent

No unified field theory means anyone who claims to know the answer to "is there free will" is entirely full of shit.

>>17907817
>No unified field theory
we will be vindicated in the future.

>>17907976
until then, you got nothin'

>>17907754
Let me ask you a better question why are you treating these books like unquestionable truth yet they are full of stories and hadiths that contradict the Quran, I never said hadiths are null but any Hadith that contradict the Quran is null

>>17908361
>Let me ask you a better question
I think you're seeing the problem. Without the hadith you can't provide an answer on something extremely basic to your religion. If you can't get the basics from the Koran, you can't fet the immensely more complex matters like how God's will, the records of the angels, man's will, and random chance all relate together.

>why are you treating these books like unquestionable truth
Because Sunni Islam does. I'm not a Muslim.

>>17908441
>Because Sunni Islam does
Most of them don't but ok you have a point

>>17905789 (OP)
the fuck is that opening?

>>17907164
No, he aids those who he selected for enlightenment. If they don't believe, it's because he chose that for them. It's inherently deterministic.