Thread 17906544

>Emperor Kōkaku had 16 children, 1 of them reached adulthood.
>Emperor Ninkō had 15 children, 2 of them reached adulthood.
>Emperor Kōmei had 6 children, 1 of them reached adulthood.
>Emperor Meiji had 15 children, 5 of them reached adulthood.
What the fuck were the Japanese doing to their children as late as the 19th century that even their royal family had such a shocking infant mortality rate? Queen Victoria had 9 children, and they all survived to adulthood, her grandfather George III had 15 children, 13 reached adulthood. Or were the Japanese royal family even more dysgenic than their European counterparts?

Japs didn't eat shit that had legs for over a thousand years.

>>17906544 (OP)
They were waiting for White men to civilize them.

>>17906544 (OP)
* Kato K. Lead Meningitis in Infants: Résumé of Japanese Contributions on the Diagnosis of Lead Poisoning in Nurslings. *Am J Dis Child*. 1932;44(3):569–591.
* Fukase Y, Premature Death Problems of the Meiji Emperor’s Infants, According to the Two Submissions of 1883 and 1888, *Nihon Ishigaku Zasshi*. 2015 Jun;61(2):163-78.
* Fukase Y, The Cause of Death of the Emperor Meiji’s Infants, *Nihon Ishigaku Zasshi*. 2015 Sep;61(3):255-66.
* Ikeda K, Murakami K, Historical Overview of Meningitis Deaths in Japan, *Ann. Rep. Tokyo Metr. Inst. Pub. Health*.
* Horiguchi S, Teramoto K, Nishio H, Hayashi C, The Studies of Lead Encephalopathy in Infants in *Acta Paediatrica Japonica* (1923-1926) after the Confirmation of the Cause of the Meningitis by Ikutaro Hirai (the first part), *J.Science of Labour.* 2011;87(5):186-200.
* Horiguchi S, Teramoto K, Nishio H, Hayashi C, Ikutaro Hirai's Articles on So-called Meningitis (Lead Encephalopathy) in Infants Published in *Acta Paediatrica Japonica*. *J.Science of Labour*. 2009;85(4):178-190.
* Paireau J, Chen A, Broutin H, Grenfell B, Basta NE. Seasonal dynamics of bacterial meningitis: a time-series analysis. *Lancet Glob Health*. 2016 Jun;4(6):e370-7.
* Bonté L, Bonté F, (trans.) Takikawa M. Misono, the First Lead-free Japanese Cosmetics: Analysis of a Successful Creation. *Rev. Hist. Pharm*. 2020;68(408):469-477. Reproduced in *J. Hist. Pharmacy*. 2022;57(2):144-149(2022).
* Burnham JC. Biomedical communication and the reaction to the Queensland childhood lead poisoning cases elsewhere in the world. *Med Hist*. 1999 Apr;43(2):155-72.

Did a paper on this in college. Basically mass lead poisoning that was mistaken for Meningitis.

>>17906820
Bonus document.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440310002682

This wasn't just royals, the entire samurai class had this problem and it likely contributed to the population declines of the samurai class.

>>17906544 (OP)
there can be only one

>>17906820
>>17906825
So did same thing happened to non samuria kids?

>>17906959
Court nobles loved putting on face powder full of lead.

It was likely just dysgenics. Pretty sure the Imperial Family today is limited to the agnatic descendents of Emperor Meiji.

>>17906990
Oh I thought it was from well or something. Lead from cosmetics makes more sense and explains more.

>>17906959
Poster you're replying to, no. Nearly all samurai adults had lead poisoning, but it was especially strong in adult women, and then 50x worse in children (0-3 most strongly) than it was in women.

As the other poster suggested, lead paint and makeup that was common in samurai homes and makeup was the most likely culprit, and the young children's close contact with their mothers made the lead concentrate in their small, weak bodies. Some of the young had strips of lead formed in their bones from the monumental overexposure.

You'll notice that as medicine progressed, western beauty became more standardized, and lead paint became more rare from the 1920s onward, these deaths mostly ceased.

>>17906959
As an additional note, this wasn't just denial of the obvious on the samurai's part, bacterial meningitis WAS very common in the Edo period and a pretty common killer of children.

>>17906992
>>17906544 (OP)
"Dysgenics" is nonsense, even in the most infamous cases like Charles II of Spain inbreeding likely had nothing to do with his ailments. It's nearly impossible to be so inbred that you get a 90% infant mortality rate.

>>17906544 (OP)

Because they were Shinto, and Paganfags don't believe in medicine.

>>17906581
The time period he's referring to had all of the meats that are available now. Unless you're implying that eating what is generally considered a healthier diet curses your bloodline for centuries and gives you a massive infant mortality rate.

>>17907449
Rangaku had been the policy since the 17th century retard.

>>17907455

Okay but Shintoism believes science and technology is evil.

>>17907463
It literally doesn't. Unless you're implying that japan was Christian by the 1600s, because they were on par with western medicine and technology from that point on.

This isn't debated, it's just true. Rangaku.

>>17907466

Science requires you to interact with nature, which disturbs the kami.

>>17907468

This is why Shintoism can't account for discoverability. Related:

>>17905593

>>17906820
I was going to say it was lead poisoning without knowing anything about the subject. My intuition is godlike as usual.

>>17907431
>>17907442
How come numbers are so different in comprasion to UK? Did UK not used lead or their childbearing was different or did their make up practices were different? They also used stuff like paris green/Scheele's green

>>17907468
Wrong again. Not only do shintoists interact with nature (many shrines are built in natural locations, and as a civilization they have farmed for nearly their entire existence) science also doesn't require you to interact with nature. You're thinking of natural philosophy.

Kami are incorporeal in the shinto faith, and so are quite difficult to disturb. Their places are usually quite small in their himorogi (神籬 - a fenced off area where kami are worshipped) or shinboku (神木 - a roped off tree where a kami resides). They can also reside in rocks and things at times.

>>17907485

Isn't dissecting a cadaver disturbing spirits? How can you find out anything about the human body then?

>>17907484
I don't know. I'm a historian, not a doctor. You'd have to find a paper on European child mortality.

>>17907488

And what about building architectural marvels like St. Peter's Basilica or the Sagrada Familia? Wouldn't that disturb the kami?

>>17907488
Dissecting a cadaver is unclean (blood is given special significance in shinto, you should not contact it) but no spirits reside in a corpse. You can avoid upsetting kami by washing the blood off before your next shrine visit.

You know very little about shinto for someone who whines about it daily.

>>17907491

Shintoism also thinks physical beauty is bad, and that hideousness is a virtue, so....

>>17907491
No, why would it? Japan currently has buildings larger than those.

>>17907493
Wrong again. Japanese shinto and Zen Buddhism often had conflicts, but anesthetics were not a part of them. Shrines are often in beautiful locales where kami prefer to dwell.

>>17907491
Also, as a note, the Meiji Shrine is over 30x larger than the st Peter's basilica in land coverage. Obviously disturbing the ground wasn't an issue.

>>17907498

You lie like a Jew.

>Usagi Kamishara, Shinto priest, English edition of his "Meditations on the Gods"

>"The kami created this world to be a place of suffering and ugliness, [...] thus beauty is not to be expected nor achieved."

>>17907489
"Samurai-class women in Edo Japan faced far higher lead exposure from oshiroi(japanese make up that is spread in thick wet layer) than British women did from lead-based cosmetics because it was worn daily from adolescence, applied thickly over the entire face and neck, and often flaked into airborne dust in poorly ventilated rooms, leading to inhalation, ingestion during removal, and constant skin contact. This chronic, multi-route exposure meant high year-round blood lead levels, which readily crossed the placenta and harmed fetal development. In contrast, British use of lead cosmetics was lighter, more occasional, and covered smaller areas, so average exposure was far lower and reproductive effects less severe." this what shitgpt said. Interesting wanted to share not sure how correct.

>>17907506
"Shrine worship is closely associated with a keen sense of the beautiful— a mystic sense of nature which plays a part in leading the mind of man from the mundane to the higher and deeper world of the divine and in transforming his life into an experience of living with the kami."
— Sokyo Ono, national professor on shinto shrines for the national association of shinto shrines

>>17907514
Simon is actually a Shinto. He's said it on multiple occasions.

>>17907493
>hideousness is a virtue
bru if you had any abnormaility even like slight scar on your face you would be considered unmariable. They painted their teeth black to make their face look whiter and purer. Hideousness is virtue my ass, maybe for guys.

>>17907519
I know. I'm an Euroasian history and theology major and come here daily. I'm keenly aware of salva.

>>17907519

NO THE FUCK I'M NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU RETARDED GANGSTALKER I HAVE NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT

YOU ARE A GODLESS HEATHEN AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY FOR LYING ABOUT MEN OF CHRIST

FUCK OFF EAT SHIT AND DIE YOU RETARD

>>17907506
>>17907514
For anyone following this argument, I can't find any sign of this priest or this book Salva is referring to existing. Google either.

He has created a fake shinto priest before (Liao hao? He gave him a Chinese name) so I think Salva probably invented this.

>>17907528

Who the fuck are you and why are you profiling me? You know I'm a fucking TI, right? Oh, wait...You're "keenly aware" of that, fed..

>>17907528
Kinda based ngl.

>Makes up random shit to prove his point
>encourages anons to do their own research by posting random shit
>lives in post truth world where his ideas are the only ones that matter
Truly diogenes of our times

I am a devout Roman Catholic. I have been a Roman Catholic since birth, for all 25 of my years of life.

I WILL NEVER STRAY FROM THE PATH THE LORD HAS ORDhttps://www.pixiv.net/en/AINED FOR ME.

NOW FUCK OFF ANTICHRIST.

>>17907541

>>17907506

"The gods hold contradictory wants and are capricious. Thus, a world without gods is fit for science."

From the same book.

>>17906820
So was it just the cosmetic procedures of the wives and concubines that caused this level of fatalities? Why was lead so important to them and how did this effect infants, I would have thought they would been with their nursemaids rather than with the mothers?

>>17907533
Very true.

>>17907531
You're a tripfag on an obscure shinto ritual forum, retard. As the only person with a name obviously you get profiled.

>>17907566
Can you show the ISBN of this book? Or a picture of the cover? This book isn't real.

>>17907571
Nursemaids, as adults in an upper-class household, would also be caked on white lead. It was severe on adults too, but in children the effects are more profound. Studies on the bones saw the level of lead taper off as they aged. Adults are more resistant to lead, babies nuzzled up and nursing from women coated in white lead really hurt them. There's also the usual "lead chip" stuff from household items as well.

>>17907571
Lead passes through placenta, lead levels of mothers were similiar to babies. Mother might be okey because she is adult but babbies are already in weakened states which meant they died more. Also they used lead based pottery.

You can also check out how lead levels in gasoline effected people/infants lots of studies on that.

>>17907598
>lead levels of mothers were similiar to babies
This does not seem to be the case in the studies I cited. Some go as far as saying it was 50x worse in babies, which caused the infamous lead banding on bones.

>>17907594
Wet nurses were most likely commoners though. Pre natal lead was the most likely the cause. Though i think in very high level families wet nurses were considered higher rank. Average samurai family probably had commoner wet nurse who didnt used make up that much.
>>17907608
Bone levels and blood levels are different things but I am not expert.

>>17907588

Cope.

>>17907594
>>17907598
>>17907617
I wonder what the royal family and courtiers thought of this very high infant mortality? Surely it must have been noticeably higher than that of normal Japanese peasant families.

>>17906992
>>17907511
>>17908338

>It was likely just dysgenics. Pretty sure the Imperial Family today is limited to the agnatic descendents of Emperor Meiji.

ALL branches of the Japanese imperial family including the official cadet branches that MacArthur dismissed, had a shockingly low number of people for a family that reigned for 1,500 years.

the official cadet branches designed to succeed the throne (before MacArthur dismissed them) only numbered a few hundred people, those branches split some 600 years ago.

All those branches descend from the Northern Court emperors, who split from the Southern Court some 700 years ago.

That was before the Edo era.

By contrast, Han Chinese imperial families like the Zhu of the Ming dynasty reached 200,000 agnatic (patrilineal) members by the time of the Ming collapse, in just two centuries.

Manchus Aisin Gioro on the other hand, suffered from low fertility (but not as bad as the Japanese).

Aisin Gioro only had 26,000 members at the end of the Qing dynasty, a fraction of the size of the Ming dynasty Zhu family.

Aisin Gioro barely had the same rate of production as the average Han, Aisin Gioro didn't have many children.

The Han Chinese Kong (Confucius) family has several million people.

>>17908357
Ottomans also have a tiny amount of people for a family that ruled centuries, but that's explained by Ottoman Sultans regularly killing their brothers, so its not due to other factors.

Arab royal families are small for families that reigned for centuries and practiced polygamy.

Al Saud (descendants of Saud including Muhammad ibn Saud's brothers) only has 5,000 members despite it being three centuries.

The Omani Al Bu Said family has even less members despite ruling for three centuries, only a few hundred.

The Ming dynasty has the world record for biggest number of registered descendants within the shortest amount of time.

>>17908357
>The Han Chinese Kong (Confucius) family has several million people.
I trust the family sizes of emperors(given the amount of concubines and most likely infanticide of daughters their patrilineal offspring must have been extensive) but let's be honest that sounds like "every European is descended from Charlemagne".

>>17908357
The descendants of an emperor were typically kicked out of the Imperial house to start up their own branch clans, which themselves split up once again once they got too large. The Ashikaga, Shimazu, Hosokawa, Takeda, and Imagawa just to count a few were all direct descendants of the Imperial house.

>>17907463
..and this is why you can get blessings for cars and computers at Shinto shrines.
It's apparent that you have ZERO knowledge about the things you rant about.

>>17907485
Anon, he's an unrepentant troll and shitposter. Pity him, but do not take him seriously.

>>17908883
A fukkin fag too.
>>>/bant/23080158

>>17907519
>Simon is actually a Shinto
And i am King Arthur.

>>17907533
Would you kindly not compare based Diogenes with this creep?

>>17908357
Ming dynasty for the majority of its reign actually paid for all the living expenses of imperial family members. It was why there were so many of them, they ate the fucking Chinese treasury because old man Zhu was an ignorant peasant who loved his family.

>>17908110

Yes, you wish?

>>17908896

Bullshit.

>>17908883

I'm not a fucking troll, though you are able to debate the quality of my posts.

>>17908907

What?

>>17908860
>
The descendants of an emperor were typically kicked out of the Imperial house to start up their own branch clans, which themselves split up once again once they got too large. The Ashikaga, Shimazu, Hosokawa, Takeda, and Imagawa just to count a few were all direct descendants of the Imperial house.

These are all pre-Northern Court and Southern Court split, some from unverifiable claims from over 1000 years ago.

I mentioned only Northern Court for a reason (those are verifiable claims within the past 700 years)

Tokugawa shoguns themselves claim descent from the Japanese imperial family from a branch pre-Northern-Southern Court schism, and their genealogy is fabricated

Even counting the legendary claims from over 1000 years ago, the Japanese imperial family is still small.

If you add Tokugawa. Ashikaga, Shimazu, Hosokawa, Takeda, and Imagawa and the others to the Japanese Imperial family, it's STILL smaller than the Ming dynasty Zhu Imperial family which grew faster in 200 years than they did in over 1000 years.

>>17908904
>the majority of its reign actually paid for all the living expenses of imperial family members. It was why there were so many of them, they ate the fucking Chinese treasury because old man Zhu was an ignorant peasant who loved his family.

Thats a lie, that wasn't why they became parasites on the treasury.

The first Ming emperor Zhu Yuanzhang fully intended for all of them to work in the military full time.

The Ming cadet branches were originally given their own private armies and stationed at border fiefs.

That's why the sub-sub cadet branches of the princely branches had military titles defender general, bulwark general, supporter general

Zhu Quan, Prince of Ning was stationed at Daning in Chifeng in Inner Mongolia itself (beyond the area of the later Great wall)

Other Ming princes were also stationed in the border provinces like Prince of Dai in Datong, Prince of Jin in Taiyuan, Prince of Qin in Xi'an, Prince of Yan in Beijing

They fully commanded their own military staff and armies, the Prince of Qin Zhu Shuang repeatedly raided Tibetans in Qinghai and seized Tibetan girls and castrated Tibetan boys (and was condemned by Zhu Yuanzhang)

The Prince of Ning and Prince of Yan repeatedly fought against the Mongols.

After the Yongle Emperor Zhu Di (Prince of Yan) overthrew his nephew, the Yongle Emperor's then stripped his brothers of most of their military powers abd even relocated them from the borders, he moved the Prince of Ning all the way from Inner Mongolia to Nanchang, Jiangxi in southern China.

The Yongle emperor forced the Imperial family to become parasites since they no longer fought and commanded military positions

Zhu Gaoxu, Prince of Gaoyang revolted against his nephew the Xuande emperor but was defeated, and the princes were stripped of even more power.

Prince of Ning rebellion and Prince of Anhua rebellion also resulted in even more power being striped.

The Ming princes after that only had honorary guards of a few hundred.

>>17908904
>>17910149
Zhu Yuanzhang was fully literate and he fully intended for all his family to work in the Ming military ar the borders and hold real military power in campaigns against the Mongols and others.

They were given salaries since they were all supposed to fight.

Zhu Yuanzhang barred them from any civilian political posts (like governor, magistrate) but he intended them to serve as solely military commanders on the battlefield.

He knew they would grow exponentially but thought they would all be fighting.

The Yongle Emperor stripped them of military power but kept their salaries (to prevent them from doing what he did to his nephew) so they turned into parasites who didn't work and only received salaries as they grew exponentially.

The Ming princes were replaced by ordinary generals at the borders who received salaries for their military work while the Ming princes received salaries for doing nothing and drained the treasury.

>>17908904
>>17910149
>>17910153
That's why at the end of the Ming dynasty during Southern Ming, none of the Southern Ming emperors commanded their own armies and they were forced to rely on warlords who controlled the armies.

The Zheng family controlled the army at the court of the Longwu emperor in Fuzhou, while Li Dingguo controlled the army guarding the Yongli emperor.

Other Ming princes like Zhu Shichuan relied on warlords Mi Layin and Ding Guodong and Prince of Lu Zhu Yihai relied on Zhang Mingzhen.

The entite Southern Ming armies were private armies of different warlord families and none of them had a command chain to the emperors and princes themselves.

Zhu Yuanzhang thought that if the central government of the Ming dynasty fell, his descendants commanding their own private armies in the border provinces like Yunnan would rise up and re-establish the Ming.

He never intended for them to become freeloaders and parasites on the state treasury.

>>17908396
> "every European is descended from Charlemagne".

This counts non-agnatic maternal ancestry

All families in China are counted by paternal ancestry only. Maternal ancestry from Confucius is never included.

There were two main branches of the Kong family holding hereditary noble titles at Qufu in Shandong and Quzhou in Zhejiang.

They also had official cadet branches designated to succeed the main line if it went extinct and an official genealogy (many people claiming to be part if the family were excluded from the official genealogy).

>>17908896
This nigga needs to touch grass holy shit. They even ignored his thread. Simon, you need professional help.

>>17908904
>>17910149
>>17910153
>>17910165
Aisin Gioro also all received salaries from the Qing (like other Bannermen)

Some Aisin Gioro members were allowed to work in limited official positions as officers or officials, and the rest were officially just bannermen in the Eight Banners in the capital.

Aisin Gioro were not scattered all over China, unlike the Ming which scattered its cadet branches in cities across China.

Aisin Gioro by law were commanded to only to live in the banner garrisons in Beijing and Shenyang (Mukden).

Beijing Bannermen were used as soldiers like in the Second Opium war and Boxer rebellion, Aisin Gioro members were expected to fight the British-French army and Eight Nation Alliance like other bannermen.

Eight Nation Alliance raped many Aisin Gioro women and other Manchu women in the Manchu majority inner Banner city of Beijing

>>17910178

Are you talking to me? Whose thread did who ignore? What are you accusing me of?

What in the sweet Kentucky fried fuck are you talking about?

>>17908396
>>17910175
Also the Kong family continuously held the hereditary noble title at the northern branch at Qufu for the last 2,200 years

The Southern branch at Quzhou split from them 900 years ago and held their title since then. (Both are hereditary for 2,200 years, they just split into two 900 years ago and shared the same lineage before that)

Japanese imperial family has 1,500 verifiable years of rule.

>>17908920
>What?
You wanted Cope.
You were given Cope.
Edward D. Cope.

>>17910841

"Cope", as in "Cope with how much of a retarded faggot one is". A word, not a surname.

>>17910849
Stop posting, Mr. Marsh

It's a funny thread because we get both chink spammer and simon schizo in it.

>>17910194
>Eight Nation Alliance raped many Aisin Gioro women and other Manchu women in the Manchu majority inner Banner city of Beijing
So they were the whitest dynasty?

>>17910879

>simon schizo

Who?