Thread 17909322

Not sure if I should put this here or /a/, but I think /his/ would do a much better job explaining.

How come Americans haven’t come up with anime and manga despite being the originators of almost every other global pop culture? Aside from Disney and DC/Marvel which highly influenced early Japanese anime, the only other cartoons they make are either for children or edgy teens, and they usually lack the aesthetics or complexity that anime offers (though I still enjoy some American cartoons).

How come Europeans haven’t come up with anime/manga despite their rich and beautiful history with literature, art, and music from eras like classical antiquity and romantic (Shakespeare and Homer in particular)? France in particular already had a very rich comic culture, yet theirs aren’t as nearly globally influential and they still mainly consume Japanese anime/manga. European paintings and sculptures had a lot of beautiful, often nude, women, yet it’s only the Japanese that stuck with them in visual art these days.

How come not even the Chinese came up with the idea of anime/manga despite being the originators of East Asian civilization? You’d think they’d develop their own cartooning culture like Japan did, but they mostly imitate like South Korea.

What is it that allowed Japan to come up and dominate anime/manga as their and only their thing? Could it have been possible for anime/manga to originate elsewhere, or at least be seen as equally global instead of something specifically gatekept or restricted to Japanese culture?

>>17909322 (OP)
>the only other cartoons they make are either for children or edgy teens, and they usually lack the aesthetics or complexity that anime offers (though I still enjoy some American cartoons).
After watching a lot of anime, I can affirm it's often the other way around

>>17909322 (OP)
americans are still operating under the idea that cartoons = kids show with the odd exception for irreverent adult cartoons like family guy and simpsons

the medium is simply not respected in the US

>>17909322 (OP)
Arcane is definitely a top contender for best animated tv show ever created and it's french.

>>17909360
one show in recent years compared to all the other thousands japan produced in decades
a lot of the “good” animation these days have some heavy japanese influence

>>17909360
no it isn’t

>>17909322 (OP)
>how come not even the chinese
they were busy getting a train run over them by the west, warlords, japs, and communists, the last of which is still holding them back

America probably didn't come up with it because American animation has always been more varied and experimental in terms of art style. All Anime looks the same and the anime art style is extremely formulaic.

>>17909322 (OP)
Europe doesn't have a unified national market with one official language, which is why it doesn't have a big commercial animation industry, much like how it doesn't have a big commercial film industry. Even something like the european Disney licence comics are fragmented into local publications with their own editorial departments, despite publishing the same stories. Before the internet these national markets were even more isolated from each other and developed into different directions in terms of popular stories and aesthetics.

It's largely a question of scale and volume. Nowhere in Europe has the concentration and output to drown out everything else, which is why american film/tv and japanese anime and manga were the ones to do that instead.

>>17909322 (OP)
how about this scenario: anime/manga still originated from japan, yet it’s not as restricted or gatekept to solely there. how different would anime/manga have been globally? would it still incorporate those Japanese tropes, or would they fit more to local tastes? would it influence global animation as a whole?

>>17909322 (OP)
The west is culturally too scared to narrate interesting edgy stories to young people via comics or animation. It's either dumb funny stuff targeting kids or boring adult stories.

>>17909390
You can also argue that the reason for this divergence is because early American animation was heavily inspired by early European animation, which in turn was heavily inspired by late 19th and early 20th century expressionism.
In Japan, anime is extremely formulaic in terms of art style because anime ultimately comes from Manga, which in the beginning were basically just mass produced Sunday comic strips.

Nobody in America actually thinks cartoons are exclusively for children. And nobody in Japan will ever produce animation that looks anywhere near as interesting in terms of visual style as some of Ralph Bakshi's work on movies like American Pop. Japan will never have their own Bakshi, or Don Bluth. Most people can only name a single notable Japanese animator, and that's Miyazaki, meanwhile I can name at least half a dozen notable American animators

>>17909322 (OP)
>>17909368
>>17909400
You're exaggerating about how different "anime" is from western animation. Japan makes more cartoons than america but the "western cartoon" aesthetic is very iconic and familiar. There isn't even that much difference between western cartoons and japanese anime to the extent that it would be difficult to clearly, specifically explain what the difference is. Compare kim possible to sailor moon. DC/marvel/disney/pixar has been churning out a lot of content very consistently for decades and there's an abundance of "modern" western animation like love, death, and robots, secret level, oats studios, etc.

>>17909418
Ralph Bakshi is a Zionist Jew

>>17909445
Correct, and he's also a more interesting animator than anything Japan has ever produced outside of Miyazaki

>>17909390
I just wanted to add also that apparently in Japan, all work made under a given studio is made under the same art director. In America, each individual work under a given studio will usually have its own art director, and artists have a bit more creative freedom with things regarding character design so long as the finished product can be made within realistic production constraints. But take that with a grain of salt

>>17909322 (OP)
Animation in Japan is treated as much as a legitimate art form as film or literature are. In the west its largely seen as for children.

>>17909495
>In the west its largely seen as for children.
Demonstrably false

>>17909322 (OP)
Europe had a massive post-WW2 comic book industry, but apart from exceptions like Asterix and Tintin, it did not really interest non-Europeans that much.
USA hobbled it's own comic and cartoon industries for decades with Comics Code Authority, which also made sure that superhero comics became and remained the dominant American comics in the US. It is tragic because you can see that there was potential for so much more when you read pre-code comics made before 1954, but legislators decided that you just can't be allowed to succeed in that medium unless it is lame and milquetoast enough.

Anime is extremely childish, stupid and either sexualized or just edgy
Thats what makes it fun though
But the writing is horrible

>>17909504
OP is talking about artstyle, not so much writing. The reason animation in the US was so lame in the 50s-early 70s was because this was right when television was becoming mainstream but nobody took television seriously because of its lower visual fidelity compared to proper film, but it was a new market with opportunities for cheap studios to take advantage of to appeal to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to increase what was already thin profit margins for the burgeoning media. I think by the 80s things started normalizing

>>17909418
You're just ignorant.
Japan has Mamoru Oshii, Makoto Shinkai, Katushiro Otomo and the late Satoshi Kon.
Go watch any Masaaki Yuasa anime for an example of an out there and distinct visual style.

>>17909499
In America at least it absolutely is.

>>17909531
Demonstrably false

>>17909533
See >>17909523
America has very few equivalences to those directors. Nowhere near as diverse

>>17909536
see
>>17909533

>>17909538
Are you going to make a refutation or are you going to still say "no" without going into detail?

>>17909542
Don't have to, you're really dumb dude, no sane person actually thinks Disney represents Americas entire entertainment industry like no sane person thinks Nintendo represents Japans entire entertainment industry. You reek of autistic generalization fallacy

>>17909547
>represents Americas entire entertainment industry
Where did I say this? And even non-Disney stuff has too much focus on children material. Outside of comedies you will barely ever see dramas, action, romance ect animation targeted to adults.

>>17909550
Define "targeted towards adults" because most genres you listed in Japan save for ones with juvenile sexual content can also be marketed to children in the same way. In America I don't even think most animation has any particular demographic

>>17909553
Japan has seperate markets catering to different age groups (kodomo, shonen, seinen, josei) and yes nearly all genres are present so its not really an age thing. But in America you will hardly see action orientated shows or dramas targeted for adults. A good example from Japan beinfg Berserk or Ghost in the Shell.

>>17909322 (OP)
how come despite its global appeal anime and manga still remains produced in japan and only japan? how come other countries haven't mass ported anime manga to some degree?
korean manhwa doesn't help as it's seen as a Japanese imitation than something distinctively korean

>>17909793
anime and manga is just cartoons and comics idiot there isn't a significant difference between "anime and manga" and western comics and cartoons.

>>17909360
kill yourself tranny

The visual storytelling tradition in Japan goes way back to emakimono scrolls, ukiyo-e woodblock prints, and satirical illustrations in Edo-period books. By the late 19th century, Japan had already fused Western cartooning styles (introduced by foreigners like Charles Wirgman) with its own visual art sensibilities.

>>17909345
>After watching a lot of anime, I can affirm it's often the other way around
/co/pe & seethe
/co/cksucker

>>17909390
>"art style"

>>17909418
>notable amerimutt animators

>>17909322 (OP)
>how come x hasn't come up with the "idea of anime"

you really dont care about animation at all if you think this, loads of amazing adult movies came out in the west, much better than 99 per cent of anime

literally the only difference is that maybe the japanese were more accepting of animation as an art form, so productions were succesful and thus more productions in the same style could be done

but its seriously not about the artist themselves, there are loads of amazing american and western animators who do much better work than most anime, its more so about the people themselves

>>17909322 (OP)
A lot of anime tropes come from Western media that you never heard of.
>Weird anime = pulp fiction shit.
>Fantasy anime = dungeons and Dragons.
>Sci-fi anime = Star treck, Star Wars, and the like
>Slice of life erotic = porno comics

>>17909427
>DC/marvel/disney/pixar has been churning out a lot of content very consistently for decades and there's an abundance of "modern" western animation like love, death, and robots, secret level, oats studios, etc.
>All 3d animation slop from soulless companies who have abandoned the art of 2d animation unlike japan's anime
Retard

>>17910317
Star Wars already have manga and anime

>>17909322 (OP)
The bombs made them retarded I guess. 1960s is when art gets to shit.

>>17910303
Anime is so shit and overdone, there is no greater mogging than Disney.

>>17911169
>>17911165
Reddit right down two block away

>>17909322 (OP)
>How come Americans haven’t come up with anime and manga despite being the originators of almost every other global pop culture?
What a stupid fucking question. Just try asking this on /co/ and you shall be revealed to be a tera-retard.

mokuhanga was an extremely popular form of literature and art among the common people during the edo period. The introduction of western printing styles saw this adapted into comic books. Even today manga is far more popular in Japan than comic books in the west. Anime is actually far less popular than manga and plenty of people read manga but don't watch anime.

It's a product of the closed environment meaning modern printing styles weren't introduced until relatively late, so the woodblock style which involved more imagery and focus on artistry flourished. Likewise, literacy was higher among commoners in Japan than many other comparably developed countries, adding to the interest in the medium.

>>17909322 (OP)
america:
>animation is seen as "for children"
>capeshit monopolized the comics industry

europe:
>division between fine arts and pop arts
>overshadowed by Brits and Americans in pop culture (hence why so many European musicians sing in English)

>>17909322 (OP)
Japanese animation developed in a different way to Disney, mainly due to economic factors.
Japan thought it was impossible to beat Disney and other American animation in terms of animation quality, so it pursued story, worldview and the detail of the drawings.