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Thread 17916453

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Anonymous No.17916453 >>17916633 >>17918634 >>17918638 >>17918644 >>17920326 >>17920533 >>17921801 >>17921838
>God created the Universe because the Universe must need an intelligent creator
>Nothing needed to create God because God is the uncaused cause
Why do theists think that this is a good argument?
If nothing needed to create God, that means ultimately nothing needed to create the universe either, you're just adding extra unnecessary steps
Anonymous No.17916617 >>17916642 >>17916884 >>17916887 >>17917452 >>17917947 >>17918218 >>17918945 >>17921935
God must exist, he is nonphysical, timeless, and changeless. The universe is contingent. Without God, nothing has cause for existence.
Anonymous No.17916633
>>17916453 (OP)
>we are jew worshippers stupid?
If they were smart they wouldnt be jew worshippers
Anonymous No.17916642 >>17916874 >>17918206 >>17919368
>>17916617
But if nothing created God
and God created the Universe
How is that not the same thing as simply saying that nothing created the universe?
Anonymous No.17916874 >>17917452 >>17917955
>>17916642
God exits outside the chain of cause and effect.
Anonymous No.17916876
God created the Book of Mormon to save as many as would hear it truly in the latter days.
Anonymous No.17916884 >>17918211
>>17916617
>God must exist
>he is nonphysical, timeless, and changeless

those are the properties of something that doesn't exist lol
Anonymous No.17916887 >>17919368
>>17916617
>changeless

he "changed" if he had to create the universe from the void

a self sufficient god would have no need or desire for humanity or this creation
Anonymous No.17917452 >>17919368 >>17920317 >>17921838
>>17916874
>>17916617
Let's say we concede that the universe was created by something. What makes it so that it must be God who made it? Is it impossible for something other than God to make the universe?
Anonymous No.17917947 >>17918676
>>17916617
daodejing/10
Anonymous No.17917955 >>17918642 >>17919368
>>17916874
Right, so the ultimate creator of the universe was outside of cause and effect. Ie. nothing created the universe, nothing needed to create the universe in this scenario. You're just adding an extra step for no reason
Nothing -> God -> Universe
Can be simplified and reduced down to just
Nothing -> Universe
Any other arguments are just semantic (and semitic) games
Anonymous No.17918206
>>17916642
correct, for God is no thing
Anonymous No.17918211
>>17916884
correct
God is not some thing with existence
Anonymous No.17918218
>>17916617
>If I repeat the same retarded argument he just debunked, he'll concede
No.
Anonymous No.17918574
>Zeus was born from Chronos
>He live in Mound Olympus
>He is the God of Lightning
>He looks like an old man in between his 40' and 50' and is very muscular
>His temper is like thunderstorm
>He's the king of Olympus, but he can be defy

We know his name, father, home, title, behavior, we know everything about him

Let's compared this with God
>His name is Yahweh (I am), it's not a name perse
>God is the God of everything, since he created everything
>God always existed, even before existence itself
>God can be found both everywhere and nowhere
>God reveled to us a things of him, how much? We don't know, maybe a lot or maybe a little
>God can take any appearance because he can do everything

God, Yahweh, is literally everything and anything, you can deny nor affirm his existence because he has all sides of all arguments

He can be anything you want to and it will be okay

How can anyone take seriously this nonsense called Christianity?
Anonymous No.17918634
>>17916453 (OP)
>If nothing needed to create God, that means ultimately nothing needed to create the universe either, you're just adding extra unnecessary steps
It's not an unnecessary step, retard. How does a universe without consciousness or intention CREATE ITSELF?

Atheists/materialists literally have to erase consciousness for their metaphysics to make sense.
Anonymous No.17918638
>>17916453 (OP)
Why are atheists so obsessed with God if he doesn't exist. We live win a secular society. Go live your super cool enlightened athiest life brah
Anonymous No.17918642 >>17918871
>>17917955
God is eternal.
Anonymous No.17918644
>>17916453 (OP)
There isn't a contradiction, read Meister Eckhart.
Anonymous No.17918676
>>17917947
A quick google suggests that this anon has a point. Wherever theists posit God as a necessary precursor or foundation for reality, it seems like it might be possible to instead just substitute "the Tao."
Anonymous No.17918871 >>17919147
>>17918642
The Universe as we know it is also effectively eternal
Anonymous No.17918945 >>17920320
>>17916617
>changeless
He is literally described as executing actions, how do you do anything without being able to change states?
Anonymous No.17918946
Reminder that "the universe" isn't a physical object and it has no characteristics such as time. Time is a physical property that individual quantum systems possess in relation to one another. The "age of the universe" is really just the apparent age of the CMB, used for convenience.
Anonymous No.17919147 >>17919318
>>17918871
Well no, entropy puts a damper on that. A mechanism for cosmological cycles is very tenable, but we don't actually know the rules behind it.
Anonymous No.17919318 >>17921807
>>17919147
Most cosmologists accept that the Big Bang was simply the earliest expansion event we can measure and may not actually represent the true beginning of reality itself but rather just the beginning of this current iteration of reality we're living in.
There are mechanisms that allow for another big bang in the post heat death universe driven by quantum and spacetime fluctuations after an inconceivably long time, like trillions upon trillions of years, but technically not finite.
Anonymous No.17919368 >>17919549 >>17920474 >>17921939
>>17916642
The universe, sometimes called nature or the cosmos, consists of that which follows the laws of physics. That which is supernatural does not have to follow the conservation of energy for example, but the universe does follow it. In other words, the universe is dependent on some cause external to itself imposing physical laws on itself. There is something causally prior to the universe, i.e. whatever is forcing it to follow those laws. The same is not true of the uncaused God, and God is not forced to follow physical laws.

>>17916887
>a self sufficient god would have no need or desire for humanity or this creation
According to the Bible, the Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand (John 3:35). It makes sense for the triune God specifically to create the universe if the purpose of creating that universe is to give all of it to the possession of God the Son.

>>17917452
>Let's say we concede that the universe was created by something. What makes it so that it must be God who made it? Is it impossible for something other than God to make the universe?
God could have made it indirectly through a chain of efficient causes, but the ultimate cause behind it has to be uncaused. That which is uncaused, i.e. the uncaused omnipotent cause that ultimately explains why caused things exist and could ever come into existence in the first place, is what we call God.

>>17917955
>Nothing -> God -> Universe
If God truly has no cause, you can't write any word as being prior to God. You could say Nothing -> Universe insofar as materially, God created the Universe from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). But that is speaking of material causes, not efficient causes. For efficient causes, you have God as the first cause (there is no right-pointing arrow to the left of God or else you now have a cause and it isn't God anymore), and the universe is something created by God. God could have also created other things besides the Universe that we are not aware of.
Anonymous No.17919549 >>17920885
>>17919368
>God could have made it indirectly through a chain of efficient causes, but the ultimate cause behind it has to be uncaused. That which is uncaused, i.e. the uncaused omnipotent cause that ultimately explains why caused things exist and could ever come into existence in the first place, is what we call God.
That really doesn't answer my question. All you did was define God. Why must the uncaused cause of the universe be omnipotent and possess a will (i.e. Why must it be God)? Is it impossible for something that doesn't possess a will nor omnipotence to have caused the start of the universe? Why or why not?
Anonymous No.17920317
>>17917452
If you can create a universe, you are literally a God.
Anonymous No.17920320 >>17921957
>>17918945
God's will is eternally actualized. He has executed one single ongoing action.
Anonymous No.17920326 >>17920465 >>17920609
>>17916453 (OP)
>If nothing needed to create God, that means ultimately nothing needed to create the universe either
That sadly does not follow whatsoever. That alone really solves this entire thread, but if you're still not convinced by your central point being exposed as a fallacy, please consider the empirical approach too - we know the Universe is finite because if it had been eternal, then entropy would have been absolute. Seeing that entropy is finite, so is the past. The Universe is also contingent, seeing that every single aspect of it seems to be suceptible to change, sometimes even by things we ourselves do, such as very slight spacetime manipulation.
Anonymous No.17920465 >>17920489
>>17920326
>That sadly does not follow whatsoever. That alone really solves this entire thread, but if you're still not convinced by your central point being exposed as a fallacy
You're not as smart as you think you are anon
> we know the Universe is finite because if it had been eternal, then entropy would have been absolute. Seeing that entropy is finite, so is the past.
But that isn't even true, you can have entropy in the context of a cyclic universe anon
Anonymous No.17920474 >>17920496 >>17920908
>>17919368
>If God truly has no cause, you can't write any word as being prior to God. You could say Nothing -> Universe insofar as materially, God created the Universe from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). But that is speaking of material causes, not efficient causes.
You're completely missing the point of this mental exercise, the nonmaterial cause of the universe doesn't have to be God, God is simply not necessary, and you're reducing him down to just some impersonal prime mover anyways
Anonymous No.17920489 >>17920498
>>17920465
I don't think I'm particularly smart, but I do think "if God can do it, so can the universe" is beneath most people. Hopefully beneath you too.
>cyclic universe
Some (!) models of cyclical universe could deal with the entropy problem. But if you have to commit to a special case of a special cosmology just to escape one very apparent objection against your idea, you're already moving from the realm of the scientific method into the realm of holding on to bias. I'm not saying these models aren't true and I'm not even necessarily saying that thermodynamics ought to be applied to the universe the way we do now, but the most direct conclusion is not remotely the one you brought up.
Anonymous No.17920496
>>17920474
>Source of all being
>Creating freely
>Setting all laws and divisions
>Single
>Outside time and space
Idk, sounds like pretty much the exact definition of God. I mean, you're right in general... maybe the bright disk in the sky at noon doesn't "have to" be the Sun. But that's just kinda the term and concept we use for the disk in the sky. That's the word for it.

>impersonal prime mover
Personal vs impersonal is a dichotomy that does not apply to the prime mover. However, since when people say "impersonal" they mostly mean "below the level of personhood", it is not appropriate for the prime mover.
Anonymous No.17920498 >>17920509
>>17920489
>But if you have to commit to a special case of a special cosmology just to escape one very apparent objection against your idea, you're already moving from the realm of the scientific method into the realm of holding on to bias.
Fair, although anything about the Universe both prior to the Big Bang and after Heat Death are by necessity speculative, which means any arguments both for and against God are equally valid. According to Occam's Razor, a simple explanation will always be preferred over a more complicated one however, so we tend to avoid using God with regards to special pleading over speculation using inductive reasoning. If God is an uncaused cause, then the universe itself can also just be an uncaused cause, and there is more reason to believe this than God based on what we can observe.
Anonymous No.17920509 >>17920516
>>17920498
Occam's Razor says entities in a model should not be multiplied beyond necessity. Prime mover prevents precisely this multiplication, which is why Occam (a world-class theologian) kept this concept while chugging out other concepts in scholasticism by the buckets.
>If God is an uncaused cause, then the universe itself can also just be an uncaused cause
Again, this simply does not follow. It would be incredibly convenient for everyone involved if it did, but it's simply invalid inference. Akin to saying "if a cat can give birth, so can a hairball".
Anonymous No.17920516 >>17920525
>>17920509
>Again, this simply does not follow.
I disagree
God (Uncaused) -> Universe
Universe (Uncaused)
Again, there's something you're fundamentally misunderstanding with this argument, you're really trying to argue in favor of Gods necessity but you're not doing a good job at it. and you're just repeating tired apologist talking points now.
Anonymous No.17920525 >>17920535 >>17920541
>>17920516
An invalid inference doesn't become valid by formatting it as:
>Cat (give birth) -> cat
>Hairball (give birth)
It still does not follow.

>you're really trying to argue in favor of Gods necessity
I would be if I believed you have a solid grasp on the prime mover argument. This must sound very condescending and I apologize, but I don't think I've ever met an atheist who has read the argument in its entirety. OP beautifully demonstrates one of the most common misreadings and your reference to Occam demonstrates like the top 3rd or 4th.

I am completely fine if you walk away not believing in God. I just think we can agree which inference is valid and which is "hairball can give birth because a cat can".
Anonymous No.17920533
>>17916453 (OP)
you see
back in the day.
the church held a monopoly on publishing.
so you had to justify god in all your philosophies.
they stopped at god becuase their publishers would have burned them at the stake.
Anonymous No.17920535 >>17920543
>>17920525
>It still does not follow.
Of course it doesn't because you're now just playing semantic games and you're still trying to argue in favor of Gods necessity for no valid reason. By your same logic I can also argue that God is a hairball. You're not very good at this
Anonymous No.17920541 >>17920549
>>17920525
>I would be if I believed you have a solid grasp on the prime mover argument.
Atheists are aware of the Prime Mover Argument, but where you seem to be confused is that you somehow believe said Prime Mover must have some level of agency, otherwise you're not even arguing in favor of the Christian God anymore, you're playing standard apologist tricks that involve temporarily converting to Deism whenever it's convenient for you. I'm not falling for it. Yes you are condescending.
Anonymous No.17920543 >>17920545
>>17920535
>God can ------> the universe can do the same
>Prime mover argument -----> God could be argued to be a hairball
I must be actually atrocious at this because the replies I'm triggering are borderline incoherent.

Are you going to try to justify why "God can therefore the univrse can" is valid inference or did the "you're now just playing semantic games" mean to serve as a general get-out-of-jail free card against all objections? Even the ones that didn't bring up semantics...?
Anonymous No.17920545 >>17920549
>>17920543
How about this
Why can't the Universe be its own Prime Mover?
Does your apologist playbook have any answers to this question?
Anonymous No.17920549 >>17920554 >>17920557 >>17920609
>>17920541
>you somehow believe said Prime Mover must have some level of agency
The prime mover acting freely and so-to-speak "on its own behalf" is one of the most immediate implications of the concepts. Again, these are not tricks, that's just one of the basic parts of the argument's conclusion which for some reason didn't make it to New Atheism subreddit.
>Yes you are condescending.
Genuinely sorry, maybe I just don't have the patience, it's always the same starwmen...


>>17920545
Because the universe is contingent as per every single observation made in the past 3000 years.
Anonymous No.17920554 >>17920556
>>17920549
>Because the universe is contingent as per every single observation made in the past 3000 years.
Why is naturalist speculation regarding events before the Big Bang and after Heat Death less valid than Special Pleading regarding a Prime Mover?
Anonymous No.17920556 >>17920559
>>17920554
Show me the special pleading and I'll be able to answer exactly.
Anonymous No.17920557 >>17920561
>>17920549
>The prime mover acting freely and so-to-speak "on its own behalf" is one of the most immediate implications of the concepts.
If God is necessary for the universe to exist
And God creating the Universe is also necessary
Then said Prime Mover either has limited agency or no agency.
Anonymous No.17920559 >>17920561
>>17920556
>Show me the special pleading and I'll be able to answer exactly.
Why is the Prime Mover Argument not an example of Special Pleading? You are using empiricism to argue against the Universe being its own uncaused cause, yet we have no observable evidence of a Prime Mover. You're really bad at this.
Anonymous No.17920561 >>17920567
>>17920557
I don't know that God creating the universe is necessary. Necessity would typically imply that he was compelled, which is a contingency.

>>17920559
>Why not?
Sorry, you'll have to do better.
Anonymous No.17920567 >>17920573
>>17920561
>Sorry, you'll have to do better.
Sorry, you'll have to come up with a valid argument
Let me repeat myself because your apologist programming seems to be short circuiting
Why is the Prime Mover Argument not an example of Special Pleading?
You are using empiricism to argue against the Universe being its own uncaused cause, yet we have no observable evidence of a Prime Mover.

You. Are. Really. Bad. At. This.
Anonymous No.17920573 >>17920576 >>17920582
>>17920567
> you'll have to come up with a valid argument
I don't think I'll have to do that, no lol. If you just wonder why an argument isn't a fallacy then wonder away. It's not an argument and doesn't require a counter-argument.
Anonymous No.17920576 >>17920587
>>17920573
Sorry. I believe I made an argument as to why the Prime Mover is indeed special pleading. Let me repeat myself once more
You are using empiricism to argue against the Universe being its own uncaused cause


yet we have no observable evidence of a Prime Mover.

You. Are. Really. Bad. At. This.
Anonymous No.17920579 >>17920586
the thing is that god is such an "amibgious" ominious placeholder you can replace god with anything.
how does prime move equate to god?
well you use the problem of evil.
which would mean god is not benevolent or he is not all powerful.
if people believe in agod prime mover then they must conceed that god is not good or not as powerful as they think he is.
Anonymous No.17920582 >>17920591 >>17920599
>>17920573
>If you just wonder why an argument isn't a fallacy then wonder away.
>It's not an argument and doesn't require a counter-argument.
You don't actually have an answer for this do you?
Anonymous No.17920586
>>17920579
>if people believe in agod prime mover then they must conceed that god is not good or not as powerful as they think he is.
That's what's so baffling to me about the prime mover argument is that it's not necessary or a good argument in favor of God anyways
the Universe itself could be its own prime mover, there's no reason to believe otherwise
Anonymous No.17920587 >>17920595
>>17920576
I'm fully aware of what confuses you. I just sadly cannot read the argument (or the definition of special pleading fallacy) for you.
Again, this is a "cat can therefore hairball can" situation, except it's "if hairball can't why cat can".
Anonymous No.17920591
>>17920582
The answer is painfully obivous. It's not a special pleading fallacy because it doesn't fit the definition of a special pleading fallacy. But to all readers who know the prime mover argument and who know their fallacies this has been clear from the start. For the others I'm afraid I'm not the correct person to educate them. I am really. bad. at. teaching. anons. logic 101. lol
Anonymous No.17920595 >>17920601
>>17920587
Nope
You used empiricism to argue why the Universe must need be contingent (Observable evidence of Big Bang and Heat Death)
But your standards for empiricism collapse when trying to argue in favor of a prime mover
This is special pleading
Evidence of a universe being contingent is not proof of a prime mover, this is a Proof by Example Fallacy.

You are REALLY bad at this
Anonymous No.17920599
>>17920582
Of course he doesn't, he's just going to mindlessly repeat about how we don't understand logic instead of addressing any points anyone has made. He doesn't even seem interested in discussing anything anymore and has already come to a conclusion. It's all so tiresome.
Anonymous No.17920601 >>17920603
>>17920595
Correct. The prime mover is not inferred empirically. He is inferred logically. If you think this is what people call "special pleading" then I genuinely recommend you to take some time and go through logic 101 with a LLM. I actually mean this.
>Evidence of a universe being contingent is not proof of a prime mover
No idea what this is supposed to mean. The universe being contingent is one step in a fairly long argument that you have never read.
Anonymous No.17920603 >>17920609
>>17920601
>He is inferred logically.
Right, and the logical conclusion to this is that the universe is its own prime mover, and you still haven't done a good job at explaining why it couldn't be outside of really badly constructed analogies involving cats and hairballs.
Anonymous No.17920609 >>17920614 >>17920617
>>17920603
>you still haven't done a good job at explaining why it couldn't be
See >>17920326 and >>17920549. If you don't understand the discrepancy between "visibly contingent" and "prime mover", again, this thread is not the place for you. Take a 30 minute lap with an LLM about logic and then another 20 for emotional self-regulation.
Anonymous No.17920614 >>17920618
>>17920609
>If you don't understand the discrepancy between "visibly contingent" and "prime mover", again, this thread is not the place for you.
So we agree
Logically God (Uncaused) -> Universe
Can be simplified down to just
Universe (Uncaused)
I know what the prime mover argument is anon, and I've been deconstructing it to showcase why it's a poor argument for God in and of itself
Anonymous No.17920617 >>17920620
>>17920609
>If you don't understand the discrepancy between "visibly contingent" and "prime mover"
NTA but I don't think you even understand what the discrepancy actually is
Anonymous No.17920618 >>17920625
>>17920614
>Logically God (Uncaused) -> Universe
>Can be simplified down to just
>Universe (Uncaused)
Exactly, just like we can simplify
>>> Cat (birth), hairball
>>> to hairball (birth)
We just take an attribute from one concept and paste it onto another concept where we empirically know it does not fit.

You are really good at this.
Anonymous No.17920620
>>17920617
The discrepancy between being prime mover and being contingent is a direct opposition. They are literally opposites. Where have I been uncertain about that?
Anonymous No.17920625 >>17920629
>>17920618
>Exactly, just like we can simplify
>>> to hairball (birth)
Actually yes, yes we can. Following the same logic we literally come to the same conclusion and despite your absolute strawman of an analogy it will logically fit
God (Uncaused) -> Universe -> Earth -> Wildcats -> Domestic Cats -> Hairball
Can indeed be simplified down to Hairballs having no necessary cause
Anonymous No.17920629 >>17920631
>>17920625
Notice how God is the uncaused one in the chain? Not hairball?
Anonymous No.17920631 >>17920635 >>17920659
>>17920629
Again, you're missing the point
If God had no necessary cause, ultimately neither did anything he created
Anonymous No.17920635 >>17920636 >>17920638
>>17920631
Right, well luckily I think we have found the source of your confusion. You're not sure what "caused" means. This explains many questions I had and raises many others. Good luck, brother!
Anonymous No.17920636 >>17920643
>>17920635
Shame you're not even sure what "cause" means either, or even whether or not said prime mover should be an agent with its own free
Anonymous No.17920638 >>17920643 >>17921809
>>17920635
>God is necessary because he is the uncaused cause
>why?
>because God is the uncaused cause
Anonymous No.17920643
>>17920636
I'm pretty sure on both but thanks, looking forward to see those LLM gains.

>>17920638
No idea who you're quoting. The prime mover argument isn't even remotely starting out with this premise. It would be extremely helpful if you read the argument you're addressing and the words you use.
Anonymous No.17920645
All this argument does is to correctly point out that determinism makes no sense if you try to explain everything through it. But we already know that reality is fundamentally not deterministic anyway so it's a debate about nothing.
Anonymous No.17920656 >>17920675
"From an inconceivable beginning come questionable arguments for the necessity of God's existence. A beginning point is not discernable, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving go arguing on. Long have you thus experienced perplexity, experienced frustration, experienced loss of valuable time, swelling the internet chat forums β€” enough to become disenchanted with all arguments with strangers on the internet, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." β€” The Buddha, speaking presciently from around 500 BCE.
Anonymous No.17920659
>>17920631
Uncaused cause except not a cause? Genius. Not quite on the money, but creatively genius.
Anonymous No.17920675 >>17920687
>>17920656
Pretty sure the Buddha also said "metaphysical debates are for faggots; fuck that noise, escape from Samsara."
Anonymous No.17920687
>>17920675
I aspire to one day be smart enough to take his sage advice.
Anonymous No.17920747 >>17921092
>1. Assume god exists.
>2. Assume that anything deduced from axiomatic reasoning exists in reality and not just as an abstraction.
>3. Therefore, god is real.
Atheists, your refutation?
Anonymous No.17920885
>>17919549
>Is it impossible for something that doesn't possess a will nor omnipotence to have caused the start of the universe?
I'd say yes to both. For will, it's obvious because every action taken by an uncaused entity must come from within, as nothing can be imposed on the First Cause. So every action performed is a pure act of will and expression of the First Cause, and 0% of actions made by the First Cause are imposed or forced by external impositions. Whereas with caused and finite entities, some things are forced upon them without them being able to choose.

A created thing has at least some properties and attributes that were decided by its cause and that it had no choice over. The universe itself (comprising all physical energy and matter), has been forced to conform to physical laws, as an example. Those laws were imposed upon it and it had no choice but to obey, just as physical objects cannot disobey gravity for example. This is in contrast to what we call God, because nothing was ever imposed on God and God was never forced to take any action. 100% of God's actions are the product of God's own will.

As for omnipotence, obviously having the ability to do anything follows from the fact that any action that could theoretically be taken is possible for the ultimate efficient cause of the universe. Basically, there isn't something that can be named that the creator of the universe can't do. Of course, there are plenty of actions that God has the "potential" to do (hence, omnipotent), but never does, simply because of the way God is, since we find that God is also all-good, perfectly just, and so forth.
Anonymous No.17920908
>>17920474
>and you're reducing him down to just some impersonal prime mover anyways
Impersonal hasn't been defined. Do you mean like something robotic or mindless that just does things? If that's what you're referring to, that can't be uncaused because there is some kind of pattern determining the entity's actions, and that pattern was imposed from somewhere else, so something impersonal in that sense, i.e. robotic or mindless, isn't the First Cause. There are robotic and mindless things out there, sure; but they are created and their behavior has been determined for them by some prior cause.
Anonymous No.17921092
>>17920747
>Assume that anything deduced from axiomatic reasoning exists in reality and not just as an abstraction.
I think this is more of less Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis
Anonymous No.17921801
>>17916453 (OP)
Nothing did not create God. We believe nothing cannot exist, which is why being is necessary.
Anonymous No.17921807
>>17919318
This would still imply that there was an initial post heat death universe that was driven by quantum and spacetime fluctuations.
Anonymous No.17921809 >>17921815
>>17920638
Preposition 1: Things are in motion
Preposition 2: Things moved are moved by another
1. Whatever is in motion is moved by another.
2. Infinite regress per se subordinated series is impossible.
Whatever moves is moved by another, to be moved is to go from potency (moved) to an act (mobile) by a mover. (Definition of motion).
Potency and act cannot be attributed to the same thing in the same sense because it is contradicting.
Therefore, the thing which is moved (potential) does not move (act) itself.
Now for infinite regress, a) each moved mover is an instrumental mover; it communicates movement. b) That which communicates movement has it from another.
c) Thus, none of the instrumental movers have movement in of themselves.
d) Finally, the multiplication of those who lack movement of themselves will not result in one which does.
Anonymous No.17921815 >>17921830 >>17921873
>>17921809
First, those aren't prepositions. Second, as someone who didn't fail high school physics, I reject 1.
Anonymous No.17921830
>>17921815
High school physics teaches you motion as a physical movement. An example, here is you reading this, you going from not-reading to reading, a cup of coffee going from warm to cold.
Anonymous No.17921838
>>17916453 (OP)
There's nothing wrong with the argument, it is just something to consider that if God did exist it would be in line with what we'd expect from our material observations.
>>17917452
it doesnt have to be made by God, but there is nothing precluding its creation by God.
Anonymous No.17921873 >>17921883
>>17921815
Did you even bother reading it all?
Anonymous No.17921883 >>17922082
>>17921873
No need. This claims to be a formal proof. That means if I reject one premise, it's not sound. "People" who claim to lay out formal proofs for exceptional claims yet demand that *every single* point be refuted or else the proof is intact are the most pathetic kind of pseuds. Or do you have a formal proof that everything that's in motion is moved by another?
Anonymous No.17921935 >>17924167
>>17916617
>God is changeless
>At one point changed his mind and decided to make the universe
If God always existed and never changes the universe should have always existed since God never would have decided to make the universe X number of years ago, it would have always been his will.
Anonymous No.17921939 >>17923175
>>17919368
>supernatural
This word means imagination, but the imagination is not nothing, because it rises in deed. When we were cold, we use to hide behind trees when the wind would blow, until we imagined clothes, and started wearing our imaginations like a dream coat.
Anonymous No.17921957 >>17921968
>>17920320
Okay, but to execute any action means to move or change, if you cannot move or change you cannot actualise, you cannot perform an action
Anonymous No.17921968 >>17922060
>>17921957
I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, β€˜Go,’ and he goes; and that one, β€˜Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, β€˜Do this,’ and he does it.”
Anonymous No.17922060 >>17922087 >>17922129
>>17921968
That's a great example, as none of that would be possible as an unmoved being. To be in command such as that is to be explicitly within the causal link, you're affected by the men under you as much as they are by you - your existence as a man with authority with soldiers under you is dependent on those soldiers, your ability to bark orders is dependent on their senses pricking up and taking in what you say, to attain the objective you have in mind, whichever that is, relies on those servants and soldiers obeying you and without them doing so you have no authority and can complete no action. Thus, just as they would depend on you for their livelihoods and what to do, you equally rely on them to hold authority, to be a man with soldiers under you, to have servants under you. You are affected by them and they are affected by you, you are changed by them and they by you.

Thus an unmoved mover is not a coherent concept.
Anonymous No.17922073 >>17922129 >>17923185
(that is to say, to be an unmoved mover or uncaused cause, you would have to be outside of the causal link.. even if you existed you would be incapable of action or of any intervention in the universe.. you would simply be and simply exist while influencing nothing)
Anonymous No.17922082
>>17921883
First to define motion, it is to go from potency to act. We are not talking about a ball rolling or a car moving. For example, boiled water has the potential to become cold, it becomes cold because the cold air actualized its potential, the air’s potential to be cold is already actualized. This is what is meant by motion, arguing that something can move itself is contradictory because the thing would have to actualize its potential alone, but for this to happen it already needs to have its potential actualized. So for example, a cup of coffee needs the cold air to cool down. The cup of coffee cannot cool itself down without an agent that already actualized its potential to be cold.
Anonymous No.17922087 >>17922164 >>17922167
>>17922060
The problem with the way the anon you replied to explained it is that he put the unmoved mover equal to the ones he has to move. Would you say what is in motion is moved by an unmoved mover or by a moved mover?
Anonymous No.17922129 >>17922167 >>17923199
>>17922060
>>17922073
This is smelling a lot like the usual dualism problem of interaction. When you insert shit that's not physical but which nevertheless has the ability to influence what's physical, you run into a massive fucking issue of having to explain how the two meet.
Anonymous No.17922164 >>17922167 >>17923216 >>17923868
>>17922087
My issue is more like this, the unmoved mover being a personal god is not a coherent concept, it as usually explained is not coherent.

There isn't an original point where things were set in motion like a domino board or something like that, but instead something that exists outside of time and acts in this way must be acting at every moment of time. One single action done at once is one action being done at all points in time at once, it isn't ongoing because it is acting at every single point thus in a sense the actualised potentialities of the future are already actualised.

Even something simple like a tree isn't just branches and leaves and a root (all of which themselves changing and altering with cells dying and being replaced, growth, etc), but also the water taken into it, the sunlight taken into it, which all become part of the tree and without which it couldn't exist, if you removed any part of the tree you would not find a tree as a thing inside it, if you removed any part of it you wouldn't be able to find the fullness of what we would describe as a tree - if you remove the sunlight the tree could never live, if you remove the water, it would never grow, if you remove its cells there would be no body absorbing the sunlight and water and growing, and etc. This is a very crude explanation.. but what I mean is it is the same as this with everything. There are, ultimately, no independent causes, no independent objects, no unchanging essence including no unchanging soul. Even we are constantly changing and arise in this manner and when we believe we depart what was of us becomes many other things. There aren't separate things being actualised and actualising as the complete removal and elimination of one thing would mean the same for all.
Anonymous No.17922167 >>17923868
>>17922087
>>17922129
>>17922164
The idea of the unmoved mover having a substance to begin with is silly, as it is the fundamental nature of existence, of being, thus it cannot have a substance because it is not separate from anything you could name, it is the ultimate reality. It also cannot have a will, as a will implies a desire for something, to seek something one does not have or for something that on a conventional level is separate from the self, but the unmoved mover has no will because it abides in everything thus contains everything - there is nothing for it to gain, to seek out, to desire. A person according to Aquinas is an individual substance of a rational nature. Jesus thus is two wills and two natures, divine and human, united in a single individual substance of a rational nature. But as we can see, there is nothing, nothing in the universe, with an independent and separate substance, if there were nothing would change and thus nothing could exist. Thus if Jesus is simultaenously the unmoved mover existing at all points as the fundamental nature of reality and by nature impossible to be acted on, and a human with a human will being acted upon... his existence is impossible, so would our existences be. The hypostatic union is special pleading. You cannot on one hand argue that God is an independent entity separate from all, that is he is the ultimate reality in which all things abide, and that he also became a being capable of being acted upon, changed, and that desires something thus lacks something.

As the second anon points out, dualism and the problem of interaction also applies, so if you try to make the unmoved mover its own separate state of being then you make it separate from the fundamental nature of the universe, thus incapable of action in the universe and therefore not the unmoved mover. Christians are anthropomorphising the impersonal nature of everything, and by doing so becoming ignorant.
(ran out of chars may be slightly incoherent)
Anonymous No.17922174
I dislike religious brainwashing where only your god(s) made everything and all others need to be disproven or even attacked. Religionfags will Allah u ackbar everything for no logical reason just to be louder about pressing their baseless assertions. There isn't divinity, you can't creat something from nothing, and matter/energy exists because it is more stable than pure void. Stop sucking a skydaddy's cock and learn to think for yourselves. Hunanity will be better off.
Anonymous No.17923175
>>17921939
>supernatural
>This word means imagination
No, it means beyond nature or outside of nature, literally super-natural.
Anonymous No.17923185
>>17922073
It is completely coherent for some actions to be actively performed by the initiator while having no passive effect on the initiator. The possibility of moving or causing without being moved or caused shows that this argument doesn't hold.
Anonymous No.17923199 >>17923528
>>17922129
>you run into a massive fucking issue of having to explain how the two meet.
It is entirely possible to aware that one thing causes another, without having complete knowledge of the mechanism behind how it causes it. It is moving the goalposts to claim that you have to explain how something happens to be able to say that something happens. I can know that B has a cause and call that cause A, without knowing the exact mechanics of how A causes B.

Likewise, the universe is being compelled or forced to follow laws that give rise to the physical behavior we observe. It is possible to be aware of that without necessarily knowing every aspect of how it is happening.
Anonymous No.17923216
>>17922164
Pure materialism fails on its face to explain why anything exists in the first place, that's the problem there.

Further, I would point out that if that view is taken to its logical endpoint, you would have no reason to argue for or against anything at all (nothing is actually "better" than anything else or more correct), and would actually have no reason to even use langauge in the first place, since everything is actually meaningless according to materialism.

Since you apparently haven't gone that far, you must not really be a pure materialist, or at least you're only part of the way to becoming one.
Anonymous No.17923528 >>17923631
>>17923199
>It is entirely possible to aware that one thing causes another, without having complete knowledge of the mechanism behind how it causes it
John Bell was unhappy with the implications of quantum mechanics. He formulated a mathematical theorem to try to prove that quantum systems respect local realism even without being able to explain how it happens; it's a simple mathematical formula that accounts for hidden variables of any kind, even if we don't know how they work. His math allows scientists to run experiments to see if there are local hidden variables at play. A claim that "it exists, we just don't know how it works" is essentially a claim that there are hidden variables involved , and it must be able to put forth some formulation of how we could test them, even without being able to understand their inner mechanics.
>the universe is being compelled or forced to follow laws that give rise to the physical behavior we observe
"Laws of physics" are a construct, it's not actually possible to prove that they exist and work in certain ways, only that, if they do, then our experimental data can possibly be explained by them. There's also not really a clear distinction between what is a physical object and what is a law or force, matter isn't little chunks of stuff building legos, it's a set of relations of effects that make some things possible and some things impossible.
Anonymous No.17923631 >>17924302
>>17923528
>"Laws of physics" are a construct,
The laws of physics are an abstraction to reflect the reality about how physical objects, composed of what we characterize as matter and energy, behave. The universe is caused to behave a certain way, which is consistently observed by empirical means.

That observed phenomenon, which is being modeled by physical laws, is essentially an imposition on the universe by something causally prior to it. The phenomenon is imposed, causing a certain order to emerge in the universe that wouldn't otherwise be there. The order observed in the physical universe could not exist without that imposition; in fact the physical universe as we know it could not arise in the first place without that imposition. This has nothing to do with how well-understood the imposition is by us.

We can refer to the actual imposition by way of abstractions (i.e. so-called forces or laws) that are based on observations, and the forces or laws are as good as they can be shown to conform to reality. But if such an abstraction is imperfect, that doesn't mean the underlying imposition that it was meant to explain doesn't exist. All it means is that the observed phenomenon could be explained better, not that it doesn't exist simply because it was imperfectly explained.

For example you could argue that matter and energy are really just part of some universal wavefunction, but that does not change the fact that the phenomena they refer to are observed. The underlying reality has always been the same. A truly better scientific theory simply implies that the phenomena which have always been referred to, could be explained in more general terms.

>There's also not really a clear distinction between what is a physical object and what is a law or force
If someone had the wrong idea about the substrate on which the universe exists – e.g., the false idea that atoms (as we call them) are fundamental – that doesn't disprove the general idea of a substrate.
Anonymous No.17923868
>>17922164
>no independent causes or objects
But this is not possible, because that would mean not a single object has existence in itself. Multiplying objects without existence in themselves infinitely will not result in an object that has existence in itself.
>>17922167
The substance is what makes the unmoved mover what it is.
>it is not separate from anything you could name
How? If it is like anything I can name than he is longer the unmoved mover.
>two natures
Think of you. In theory, you have a nature of flesh and a nature of soul. They each have their own will. Your flesh wants to eat, your soul wants to think. In theory, they work out as one person, you are not two separate persons, one soul and one human.
>he can be acted upon
>his existence is impossible
I would say that you are mixing the divine and human natures claiming that his human body is divine.
>incapable of action in the universe
Why? If he is part of the universe than how could he be unmoved? He would be affected by it. It is possible that the immaterial interacts with the material, when you have immaterial thoughts that affect the physical world around you.
Anonymous No.17924167
>>17921935
The universe existing from pre-eternity is compatible with God's existence. Just because it isn't chronologically later to God doesn't mean it's not ontologically dependent on him. Neoplatonism has this position.
Anonymous No.17924302
>>17923631
>The universe is caused to behave a certain way, which is consistently observed by empirical means.
It might actually not quite be that way. We know that some things cannot be (0% probability), but there's no clear indicator that what does happen has to be a certain way. The universe may very well be indeterministic but constrained with some limitations.
>doesn't disprove the general idea of a substrate
Just to be clear, what is the "substrate" here? Because it seems to me that an electron for example isn't really a little object that follows some rules; it's more like an excitation in a quantum field in spacetime where there's a diffuse area within which there's a range of probabilities about where and when you may most likely produce a particle-like effect.