Thread 17927910

Is it normal to do a surprise attack on your own ally to sink their navy

>>17927910 (OP)
>ally

>>17927910 (OP)
The Germans pulled the same trick on Italy, Hungary and Finland when these sued for peace.

Britains attack shocked the world tho, as it was intended. Britain wanted to signal especially to USA that she would fight on.

>>17927910 (OP)
I dont understand what about this event is confusing to you
The RN didnt want the Italian ships falling into German hands
What ifs and historical revision is fun and easy to do
Theres a reason phrases like "in the heat of battle" exist to illustrate what decision making is like when metal is flying around in the air
But the UK Admiralty was convinced that waiting around with their thumbs up their asses wasnt a good idea so they made a decision to sink these ships
Again, I dont understand what about this so perplexing to people
Also
>ally

>normal
Ironically, WW2 was in many ways a war without precedent.

>>17928016
You made a major mistake literally in your first point, France not Italy. You really expect anyone to read the rest of a lecture from you?

>>17928033
Yes

>>17927910 (OP)
I mean I surprise leg sweep my friends to take their shoes so I guess

No, it wasn't normal, and France was understandably pissed about it.

France capitulating made them no longer an ally

>>17927910 (OP)
>France breaks their alliance with UK and seeks a separate peace with Germany
>successor state set up by Germany immediately starts collaborating
>darlan thinks his word is good enough to assure UK that the French fleet won't be seized
>spends the rest of his miserable life trying to get control of the remains of the fleet to become a private against the British
>wow dood why didnt you trust us

>>17928695
privateer*

>>17927910 (OP)
By the point of Mers el Kebir the French government had publicly announced their betrayal of Britain and intention to submit to their status as German Cobelligerents and allies. The naval forces at MeK were given the chance to reject and oppose Paris's decision there, and chose to support it. They were Axis assets and perfectly valid, noncontroversial, targets. Only deranged frogeaters and 13 year old nazi fanboys disagree.

>>17928016
>falling into German hands
Oh yeah, the French navy in Algeria is going to "fall into German hands".
They chose to attack the French fleet in Mers-el-Kebir and not the much larger one Toulon because the first could be bullied into submission or sunk and the latter could not.

>>17927910 (OP)
When younger I went from thinking this was probably the Eternal Anglo’s most despicable act of sheer naked betrayal in history to thinking this was one of the very few impressive solo things they did in the entirety of the the Second World War. This I thought showed their determination to win even more than even the Battle of Britain. Needless to state that by then the French were not allies and a sneak attack would obviously be the way to do it if you weren’t a moron

>>17928864
>Royal Navy: Your government is collaborating with the Nazis, are you going to join them? Or the Free French forces that have already sided with us?
>French Navy: We're sticking with the Nazi Collaboration Government
>You: It WoUlD nOt FaLl InTo GeRmAn HaNdS!!!!!!!!!

>>17927920
>>17928016
yes Ally retards, Churchill dedicated an entire page of his book The Hinge of Fate to fellating Darlan, the Admiral of said fleet and defacto head of state of Vichy France

>>17929179
Vichy France wasn't legitimate, it was a simple rump puppet of the Nazis

>>17929179
>having respect for your enemy means you are actually a turncoat and support your enemy
Retard

>>17929179
I am impressed you are even capable of reading if you think vichy france was a UK ally.

>>17929179
If they were an ally then why did they stop fighting the war? Having such a big fleet sitting in port and a global colonial empire

>>17928864
>you can’t attack the enemy’s weak point and sink their ships, you have to attack their strongest forces

>>17928864
They literally allowed the germs to flood into tunisia during torch

>>17927910 (OP)
What causes this behavior?
Cowardice induced by regular tea consumption?

>Noble French sailors, we re going to continue to fight against the Nazis and hopefully we will win. Are you going to join us to liberate France from our common enemy and defeat those who have their boots on your people's throats? Or at least sail to a neutral port so your ships cannot be used against us?
>Non.

>>17928849
>the French government had publicly announced their betrayal of Britain and intention to submit to their status as German Cobelligerents and allies.

Wtf are you talking about?
Vichy never actively took part in the Axis war effort
They were technically neutral and only ever fought when their territory was attacked by the Allies

>>17929408
Hindsight is 10/10
In July 1940, the war was basically over and Germany had won.
Britain was a pathethic cuck nation that had about zero chance of ever defeating Germany on its own, the USSR was allied to Germany and the US were neutral.

Asking some French sailor in July 1940 to defect from his country's navy to go join Britain in a nonsensical unwinnable struggle was simply ridiculous.
Normies who just known about WW2 tend to forget this, but losing wars happen.
In 1870, France lost a war and the army didn't fuck over to Algeria to ""continue the war".
In 1918 Germany lost a war and the army didn't fuck over to Indonesia or Tanzania to continue the war.

Losing a war had never meant leaving your entire population at the hands of the enemy to go fuck around on another continent.

>>17929421
Free France existed, why didn't they join them?

>>17929421
>asking Frenchmen to actually fight for France is nonsensical

>>17929294
>enemy’s weak point
You mean a neutral power's.
>>17929310
And they also scuttled their fleet at Toulon when Germany actually tried to seize it. Mers-el-Kebir was a completely pointless, unprovoked war crime.

Imagine your country chooses to make peace but then your "ally" shows up and forces you to join them or they'll kill you.
What kind of "ally" is that?

>>17929501
But enough about Operation Todt kidnapping French Frenchmen to be slaves in Germany.

>>17929465
The Free French were just a bunch of mercenaries in the service of Britain (de Gaulle admitted it himself), they were armed, supplied and completely dependent on Britain. Vichy France was the legitimate successor government.
It made complete sense that French sailors didn't want to throw their lives away in the service of another country.

>>17927988
no they didnt, the Germans actively preserved and protected the friendly elements among the Italians, Hungarians, and Finns, the British just straight up attacked their allies.
The British did the same in Greece.
>b-but the Heckin nazis
the Nazis werent even bad, Britain was a legitimately bad actor.
>>17928016
>what is perplexing
that all of the cynical realpolitik the nazis and soviets are accused of is much more common among the British
>that means youre a nazi
no, it doesnt, but we should stop idolizing Britan and we should stop letting seething second world retards like slavs and jews (jews are second world btw, israel was founded by socialists as a socialist state and had laws precluding non-socialists) tell White people what to think about themselves.

>>17929310
>>17928886
>>17928695
>peace is collaboration
hmmm. I guess the Low Countries really did deserve to be invaded, they were afterall, collaborators.

>>17929501
> your country chooses to make peace
only traitors make peace with foreign conquerors, they had it coming

>>17929564
>Britain has decided to fight until the last Frenchman!
>On our way boys! For Britain!!!
complete cuck logic

>>17928695
>>17928886
Why do fags like this guy come on here and brazenly lie? Vichy France wasn’t set uo by Germany, it was set up by French people entirely independently. It wasn’t set up for the purpose of collaborating with anyone, it was literally just them trying to out somebody back into power after their president illegally fled the country and quit his post.

Lying about countries to justify attacking them is sick. You’re the only nazi here.

>>17929186
>>17929280
This guy is a massive fag
>you have to fight wars for us or else we’re allowed to steal your colonial empire! You’re the aggressor not us! You’re a nazi not us!
You’re definitely the nazi.

>>17929469
>>17929465
They’re not your slaves, kike, and you’re a fucking murderer.

>>17929607
>he says in screeching defence of the regime that snatched Frenchmen off the streets to use as slaves

>>17929404
anglos are subhuman. even 2k years ago the romans understood britons were barely above the animals

>>17929610
>says this while allied with the bolsheveiks
Yikes!

>>17927910 (OP)
>surprise
It what way was it a surprise attack? Britain gave the French navy and ultimatum, the French refused to respond, and hours later after the deadline had passed Britain did exactly what they said they would and attacked.

>>17929675
>doesn't understand how geopolitics works
Retard.

>>17929733
>crying about forced labor
>while you’re stealing the peoples’ taxes and giving it to bolsheveiks
Kike.

>>17929675
But enough about Nazi Germany.

>>17929754
Yes or no? Do you deny the fact Germany forcibly consecrated French men forcing them into aiding the German army? Don't answer with a question of whataboutism. Yes or no? Very simple.

>>17929775
Are you ethnically jewish yes or no? Post your nose for immediate reviewal. Time for a KIKE AUDIT!

>>17929808
Why can't you answer the question? No I am not Jewish by the way.

>>17929485
>You mean a neutral power's
The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. The surprise attack on the Danish fleet during the Napoleonic Wars was justified too. Cry more.

>>17929825
>when Germany invades neutral countries it's evil
>but when we attack them then might makes right

>>17929511
Ironic since they were forced to serve the Germans.

>>17929511
Free France was Outer Heaven?

>>17930443
Stop trying to fill my mouth with words I never spoke, loser.

>>17929536
>the Nazis werent even bad
Thank you. I say this every single day

Vichy France collaborated with the Japanese in Indochina during the war.

How FUBAR would the Alli(es) have been if this escalated into a full on war between Vichy France and the UK?

>>17932015
Balance would have been restored

>>17929650
SAAAAR

>>17927910 (OP)
The British offered the French the opportunity to either join the British navy, or sail to the French Caribbean, or sail to America. The French fleet in British Egypt accepted their terms. The French fleet in Algiers did not because the French admiral was pissed that the British officer sent over to negotiate was only a captain.

>>17929756
Where's the alliance?

>>17929536
Why did Anne Frank murder Heinz Bock anon?

>>17929808
Still cannot answer the question. Do you deny that Nazi Germany forcibly Co scripted French men into the German army? Yes or no?

>>17929294
The point is that the claim and the justification that Britain was worried the French fleet might fall into German hand is complete bullshit.
The fleet at Toulon was in jeopardy of being seized and they did nothing against it.
They just went after the French fleets in the colonies because they were an weak target that could be coerced or destroyed.

>>17932198
Germany received from the Soviet Union:
>one million tons of cereals
>half-a-million tons of wheat
>900,000 tons of oil
>100,000 tons of cotton
>500,000 tons of phosphates

>>17929536
Funny you shound mention Finns when Germany sold them out to Russia in 1939

>>17929501
>What kind of "ally" is that
Germany

>>17932792
Why exactly should Finland be Germany's problem?

>>17932855
The Nazis' self-proclaimed goal of protecting Evropa from Judeo-Bolshevism.

>>17933442
Just like when they took Ukraine and Belarus

>>17932776
And the fleet in Toulon was, indeed, sabotaged when germany tried to seize it in 1943. Despite everything, France kept his word.

>>17933608
That is the biggest takeaway from this

>>17933522
Except chuds repeatedly claim that Barbarossa was merely reactionary and not pre-planned.
In other words, Hitler were perfectly fine with selling out countries like Finland indefinetly to the communists which also caused tens of thousands of Finnish casualties.
Yet we constantly hear the nazi argument that Britain had no business getting involved with Poland in 1939, so what right did Germany have to just sign off several states by the stroke of a pen?

>>17933683
They didn't sign off anything, they just didn't try to bring countries under their influence when they didn't have the ability to do so.

>>17928458
/thread

>>17929539
When did the Netherlands let their population be enslaved to the British? Like how France lost half their country and had French citizens forcibly conscripted into the German army.

>>17929511
When did De Gaulle admit this?

>>17927910 (OP)
>TFW the frogs sailed an entire Aircraft carrier full of gold to the Caribbean to keep it out of German hands.
>We never got to see a Graf Zepplin and Bearn carrier strike group
>We never got to see these ships operating alongside the Bismarck
>We never got a Midway esq Atlantic Ocean carrier battle
>We never got to see the USS Texas battle a captured frog battleship on the high seas

We were robbed kriegsmarine bros

Bump

Bump

>>17933968
So why cry of "Soviets invading Europe" when they were just expanding into their influence?

ok

>>17929511
>In early 1945, men from the 2th free french armored division (2ème DB) captured a bunch of Waffen SS from the Charlemagne Division, made from french volunteers.
>The free french commander called them traitors, fighting under german uniform
>"Well, you do wear an american uniform" said a SS, calmly.
>"I do not wish to see this men anymore ! " erupted the free french
>The french SS prisonners were executed.
The free french commander later explained he just wanted to get them out of his sight. This is yet unclear if this statement is a cope or if his order was wrongly interpreted as a condamnation by his subordonate. For what he cared.

>>17932183
Could'nt they just act as men of etiquette and send a fucking admiral, instead of dealing a huge negociation through some random grunt, then blazing everything on sight. Bongs are fucking hooligans.

>>17929465
They did'nt exist yet.More precisely, did'nt exist as a serious entity. It needed picrel nigger (Felix Eboué, governor of Tchad) making his colony secede from Vichy, thus giving free french a territory for the Free France to start becoming some real shit

>>17928018
>WW2 was in many ways a war without precedent.
and in all other ways WWI was the precedent, WWII being simply round two.