Thread 17929244

Without much fanfare, many of you reading this are aware of and recognize the "Dorian invasion hypothesis," supported primarily by changes in the dispersion of the Dorian dialect very local to the Aegean. I won't focus specifically on whether there was a military invasion or population overlap, just on Dorian identity. What's interesting here is how in some sources the Dorians aren't actually treated as "foreigners," but rather as "barbarians" from the north.
And, even more interesting, there was a people of transhumant herders native to Greece, with a smaller presence in neighboring Bulgaria, southern Albania, and North Macedonia, called the "Sarakatsani." Some scholars posit that they are a Greek people, descended from indigenous pre-classical herders, with linguistic and cultural evidence. A popular theory suggests that the Sarakatsani are descendants of the Dorians, isolated for centuries in the mountains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarakatsani
thoughts?

>>17929244 (OP)
be steppe nomad uebermensch
build yourself a chariot and a speer, drive to distant lands
find farmers
single-handedly slaughter thousands of them
enslave the remaining ones
they built you a palace
chill in the palace and tell everyone what to do
wtf I'm no longer a steppe nomad

>>17929244 (OP)
OP again
Another interesting piece of information I found, this time etymologically, is that according to the Austrian linguist Julius Pokorny, "Dorian" is derived from "dōris," meaning "woods" or "highland." The "dōri-" part comes from the "o" form of the Proto-Indo-European "*deru-," meaning "tree." Therefore, "Dorian" or "Doric" could be translated as "the people of the woods," "the people of the mountains," or "the people of the interior," reflecting their rural or unsettled origins.

>>17929244 (OP)
The Dorians were a species of Pandavas, the same aristocratic tribe that conquered India for a while, as told in the Mahabharata. They originated in the highlands, then moved hundreds of kilometers into Greece and became feared seafarers on the same day.

>>17929260
low quality post

>>17929244 (OP)
The Dorians were the Heracleidae, the descendants of Heracles. Nothing more, nothing less

>>17929275
That's just what the ancient Aryans were like, there's not much more to elaborate on it. They would roam around half-naked in little squads of 12 or so super-heroes, body perfectly vigorous, fighting wild beasts, savage aborigenes, climb mountain peaks, randomly build themselves chariots or grab horses and ride around the land causing horror and chaos everywhere they went. When they got bored of this lifestyle they would then conquer a city and establish themselves as the royal class among the local population. Most ancient states were founded this way.

>>17929249
plausible, where can I find this dictionary?

>>17929297
It's in German, but you can use this
https://archive.org/details/pokorny-indogermanisches-etymologisches-worterbuch-band-i-1959
and try using a Google app to translate it into English.
>>17929291
besides being too vague, it is focused solely on mythological factors, which is not only unsatisfactory

>>17929249
a good etymology in my opinion, derivation has the advantage of naming the people after their wooded and mountainous country, and very similar to these guys, who in Ottoman times, would take refuge in the Greek mountains and woods

>>17929249
Looking at the clothes of these guys, especially the roasted ones, gives me a kind of steppe feeling. Clothes not usually very well preserved and continuous over the years and generations, of course, but it seems to be different from the others. The Dorians lived in the mountains.

>>17929260
There’s definitely a connection between the Dorian and the Sea Peoples as well as the conquerors of the Indus Valley

>>17929244 (OP)
The Dorians are literally descendants of Dorus, who was the father of Tectamus, father of Asterion, father of Minos, who gave his name to the Minoan civilization. They were not even ancestors of Dyēus Phter (Zeus), but the Titan Prometheus, father of Deucalion, father of Hellen. Helllen had 3 children: Dorus, Xuthus, Aeolus, and 6 grandchildren: Tectamus, Aegimius, Achaeus , Ion, Makednos and Magnes. Each of them created a lineage or named an area. Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans, Ionias, etc...

The Achaeus call themselves Danaeans, which is a synonym for Argives and Achaeans, what the Mycenean Greeks called themselves. Daneans are based on the Libyan King Danus who moved to Greece, Argos in particular (which is also in the sources interchangeable with Mycenae, as Agamemnon is sometimes called the King of Argos) and became King of the Argives. The Mycenaeans were just Minoans plus Steppe and their civilization was destroyed by the same Bronze Age Collapse that destroyed most civilizations of the ancient world.

The Spartans didn't save Europe. The Achaemenids ruled 75% of the Hellenes for ~30 years and when the Greeks revolted the Persians actually gave them back their Democracies and removed the unpopular Satraps. Do you know what happened when the Macedonians revolted under Rome? The entire 300,000 Macedonian population was deported to Italia as slaves and they were wiped out forever as a people. Only the name of the location Macedon remains.

Sparta was used as a proxy war against the rest of the Hellenes by the Persians. Immediately after the Greco-Persian Wars, the Spartans were financially backed by the Persians to win the The Peloponnesian War. The whole reason Sparta won was because Persia built them a navy, otherwise they were trapped. They are a meme lionized by Herodotus and later historians to give a perception of common European identity, but they and the Romans were far more destructive to Europeans than anyone was.

>>17929244 (OP)
The Dorians are literally descendants of Dorus, who was the father of Tectamus, father of Asterion, father of Minos, who gave his name to the Minoan civilization. They were not even descendants of Dyēus Phter (Zeus), but the Titan Prometheus, father of Deucalion, father of Hellen. Helllen had 3 children: Dorus, Xuthus, Aeolus, and 6 grandchildren: Tectamus, Aegimius, Achaeus , Ion, Makednos and Magnes. Each of them created a lineage or named an area. Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans, Ionias, etc...

The Achaeus call themselves Danaeans, which is a synonym for Argives and Achaeans, what the Mycenean Greeks called themselves. Daneans are based on the Libyan King Danus who moved to Greece, Argos in particular (which is also in the sources interchangeable with Mycenae, as Agamemnon is sometimes called the King of Argos) and became King of the Argives. The Mycenaeans were just Minoans plus Steppe and their civilization was destroyed by the same Bronze Age Collapse that destroyed most civilizations of the ancient world.

The Spartans didn't save Europe. The Achaemenids ruled 75% of the Hellenes for ~30 years and when the Greeks revolted the Persians actually gave them back their Democracies and removed the unpopular Satraps. Do you know what happened when the Macedonians revolted under Rome? The entire 300,000 Macedonian population was deported to Italia as slaves and they were wiped out forever as a people. Only the name of the location Macedon remains.

Sparta was used as a proxy war against the rest of the Hellenes by the Persians. Immediately after the Greco-Persian Wars, the Spartans were financially backed by the Persians to win the The Peloponnesian War. The whole reason Sparta won was because Persia built them a navy, otherwise they were trapped. They are a meme lionized by Herodotus and later historians to give a perception of common European identity, but they and the Romans were far more destructive to Europeans than anyone was.

>>17929924
Persia already controlled a lot of the Hellenes for 30 years by the time of the Battle of Plateau and had already returned a lot of the city-states Democracies. Sparta got involved to give freedom to the Ionian Greeks supposably, but they were already returned to autonomous Democracies under the Achaemenid Empire. If Persians had won the Greco-Persian Wars, it wasn't going to erase the Hellenes.

In fact the Classical Age of Greece, the famous period of scientific growth and wealth, happened because Hellenes was introduced into the Persian trade sphere which gave the Greeks access to Babylonian and Egyptian science. When all the Greek writers talk about Chaldean texts in their references they're talking about Babylonians. The Greek city states learned systems of administration under Achaemenid rule which allowed them to get their first professional armies - which the Macedonians would eventually use to conquer Persia generations later after Persia descends into a 100 year civil war rotting it from the inside out. The idea that the Persians were going to eradicate the Hellenes or Democracy is a modern one because some people wanted to turn this war into a story about defense of Europe.

>>17929249
>Julius Pokorny (12 June 1887 – 8 April 1970) was an Austrian-Czech linguist and scholar of the Celtic languages and of Celtic studies, particularly of the Irish language, and a supporter of Irish nationalism. He held academic posts in Austrian and German universities

>In 1920, he succeeded Kuno Meyer as Chair of Celtic Philology at Friedrich Wilhelm University in Berlin. Although baptised Catholic at birth and being sympathetic to German nationalism, he was suspended in 1933 under the Nazi Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service, because of his Jewish ancestry. He was reinstated later that year under the exemption for those who had worn the uniform of Germany or its allies in World War I, which had been insisted on by Weimar Republic President Paul von Hindenburg as a precondition before he signed the bill into law. In 1935, he was dismissed once again under the provisions of the racist Nuremberg Laws; which led to his replacement as the Berlin Chair for Celtic Studies by Ludwig Mühlhausen

>Pokorny was a dedicated supporter of the Pan-Illyrian theory and located the Illyrian civilisation's Urheimat between the Weser and the Vistula and east from that region where migration began around 2400 BC. Pokorny suggested that Illyrian elements were to be found in much of continental Europe and also in Britain and Ireland. His "Illyromania" derived in part from archaeological "Germanomania" and was supported by contemporary place-names specialists such as Max Vasmer (1928, 1929) and Hans Krahe (1929, 1935, 1940)

>>17929688
No, different peoples

>>17929984
>Pan-Illyrian hypotheses or pan-Illyrian theories were proposed in the first half the twentieth century by philologists who thought that traces of Illyrian languages could be found in several parts of Europe, outside the Balkan area. Such ideas have been collectively termed pan-Illyrianism or pan-Illyrism

>The Pan-Illyrian hypothesis received much criticism, and one of the many critiques was that of Antonio Tovar, who demonstrated that the majority of hydronyms in the north of Europe had a non-Indo-European origin – an idea that Krahe dismissed, but was later reiterated by Theo Vennemann in his Vasconic substrate hypothesis

>The Pan-Illyrian hypothesis began with archaeological findings also its end coincided with it. As Radoslav Katičić linguistically restricted what is to be considered Illyrian, newer archeological investigations made by Alojz Benac and B. Čović, archaeologists from Sarajevo, demonstrated that there was unbroken continuation of cultural development between Bronze and Iron Age archeological material, therefore ethnical continuation, too. This created the "autochthonous Illyrian" hypothesis, by which Illyrian culture was formed in the same place (Western Balkans) from older Bronze Age cultures

>According to Benac, the Urnfield culture bearers and proto-Illyrians were different people. Moreover, he claimed that the Urnfield culture migration might have caused several other population movements (e.g. Dorian migration). This hypothesis was supported by Albanian archaeologists and Aleksandar Stipčević, who says that the most convincing hypothesis for the genesis of the Illyrians was the one given by Benac; but pointing to Liburnians and their pre-Indo-European and Mediterranean phases in development, Stipčević claims that there was no equal processing[vague] of Illyrian origin in the different areas of the Western Balkans

>>17929249
deru-, "tree", which also gives the Homeric Δούρειος Ἵππος (Doureios Hippos, "Wooden Horse" reliable etymologies

>>17929996
Correct

>>17929244 (OP)
Iron Age Greek Protogeometric style originated in twelfth-century BC Macedonia and ancient people believed the Dorians came from the mountains of Macedon

>>17930016
What do you think of the idea that Greek came from Cetina groups and spread from the Peloponnese mostly into the rest of Greece?

>>17929984
>Pokorny suggested that Illyrian elements were to be found in much of continental Europe and also in Britain and Ireland. His "Illyromania" derived in part from archaeological "Germanomania" and was supported by contemporary place-names specialists such as Max Vasmer (1928, 1929) and Hans Krahe (1929, 1935, 1940)

>Swastikas were widespread among the Illyrians, symbolising the Sun and the fire. The Sun cult was the main Illyrian cult; a swastika in clockwise motion is interpreted in particular as a representation of the movement of the Sun

>The swastika has been preserved by the Albanians since Illyrian times as a pagan symbol commonly found in a variety of contexts of Albanian folk art, including traditional tattooing, grave art, jewellery, clothes, and house carvings. The swastika (Albanian: kryqi grepç or kryqi i thyer, "hooked cross") and other crosses in Albanian tradition represent the Sun (Dielli) and the fire (zjarri, evidently called with the theonym Enji). In Albanian paganism fire is regarded as the offspring of the Sun and fire calendar rituals are practiced in order to give strength to the Sun and to ward off evil

The Swastikamania came to Europe in 1871 by way of Heinrich Schliemann, a German archaeologist who had found thousands of variations of the swastika in a dig in the Hisarlik Mound, which archaeologists now believe to be the ancient site of Troy (A study in 1977 concluded that the area was underwater when the Trojan war would have taken place though). He linked these findings to a proto-Indo-European migration, asserting that the Swastika was an important symbol for European ancestors.

>>17930075
When Heinrich Schliemann discovered swastika motifs, he wrote to the German Indologist Max Müller, the translator of the RigVeda, who, quoting Burnouf, confirmed this distinction, adding that "the svastika was originally a symbol of the sun, perhaps of the vernal sun as opposed to the autumnal sun, the sauvastika, and, therefore, a natural symbol of light, life, health, peace and wealth". The letter was published in Schliemann's book Ilios (1880).

Their work later found purchase within the German Volkish movement, an ethnic and nationalist organisation that believed in the myth of an “original nation” comprised of people of a singular racial essence. Both Hitler and Goebbels were deeply influenced by Volkish ideology and, in the 1920s, began using the swastika as the symbol of an eternal German Aryan master race.

Funny thing is, there's not a single photo or artifact from Pseudo-Troy showing these swastikas outside of Schliemann's drawings. I wouldn't be surprised if the bastard just lied. But the history of this shitty symbol is pretty confusing. Oldest swastika is from Ukraine, next swastikas are also from Ukraine and the Balkans, but they are produced by completely different peoples. Early steppe cultures do not use swastikas, no swastikas in Yamnaya, Sredni Stog or Corded Ware. Then swastikas reappear in Sintashta and Andronovo.

>>17930049
Well, the OP is talking about Dorians, who were no longer Proto-Greeks or anything, but a perhaps archaic branch, not necessarily the oldest, who in turn lived in the territory inhabited by Proto-Greeks. But I don't think it's Cetina, we already have a consensus on how Proto-Greek entered Greece and it was via Thessaly. There is also linguistic support.

>>17930085
Among the most ancient (relatively) art from the Greek peninsula shows Swastikas. It stands to reason Ionia would have had them as well. Giving their shared religious beliefs. What about Erasmian Greek? Seems it could very well be pronounced in a strikingly Old Norse like manner. Is there any relation there?

>>17930272
take my advice
don't pay attention to him

>>17930276
What's wrong with talking about Dorians? The Doric architectual are was the first notable architectual era of ancient Greece you know. Crete has been said to have been a Dorian settlement, perhaps from an earlier migration even. There are peculiarities with Norse culture related to another region close to Greece as well...
Might even mention it if i thought anyone here would genuinely address it.

>>17930306
Genius, I'm talking about this specific poster, not about reasons for it to have a place to speak.

>>17930326
Question still stands for other posters as well.

>>17930272
The Minoans already had swastikas seals.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/251991
>Steatite seal with bridge handle, Minoan, ca. 2900–2200 BCE

>>17930362
They used it more in the Triskelion-style like the Basques, which probably symbolized the palace/labyrinth, snake goddess or the serpent itself.

>The term labyrinth derives from 'labrys', which was a double-sided axe used by Cretan priestesses for ceremonial purposes. The primary goddess worshipped in Knossos was Potnia, an earth mother goddess archetype at the top of the Minoan pantheon. A Linear B tablet discovered in Knossos associates the labyrinth with the goddess Potnia, through the line, 'Mistress of the Labyrinth’, Potnia meaning Mistress, or 'Potnia of the Labyrinth'. Thus the Minotaur could be taken to be Potnia's bull, as it would seemingly be her labyrinth

The snake/labyrinth goddess's Minoan name may be related with A-sa-sa-ra, a possible interpretation of inscriptions found in Linear A texts. Although Linear A is not yet deciphered, Palmer relates tentatively the inscription a-sa-sa-ra-me which seems to have accompanied goddesses, with the Hittite išhaššara, which means "mistress". The term labyrinth derives from 'labrys', which was a double-sided axe used by Cretan priestesses for ceremonial purposes. The primary goddess worshipped in Knossos was Potnia, an earth mother goddess

>Pelasgian creation myth involving Ophion as a serpent created by a supreme goddess called Eurynome dancing on the waves. She is fertilized by the serpent and in the form of a dove lays an egg on the waters about which Ophion entwines until it hatches and the world issues forth. Then Ophion and Eurynome dwell on Mt. Olympus until Ophion boasts that he made the world alone. Eurynome, as punishment, kicked out his teeth and banished him to the underworld. From Ophion's teeth sprang Pelasgus who taught man all the arts and crafts

>>17930362
They used it more in the Triskelion-style like the Basques, which probably symbolized the palace/labyrinth, snake goddess or the serpent itself.

>The term labyrinth derives from 'labrys', which was a double-sided axe used by Cretan priestesses for ceremonial purposes. The primary goddess worshipped in Knossos was Potnia, an earth mother goddess archetype at the top of the Minoan pantheon. A Linear B tablet discovered in Knossos associates the labyrinth with the goddess Potnia, through the line, 'Mistress of the Labyrinth’, Potnia meaning Mistress, or 'Potnia of the Labyrinth'. Thus the Minotaur could be taken to be Potnia's bull, as it would seemingly be her labyrinth

>The snake/labyrinth goddess's Minoan name may be related with A-sa-sa-ra, a possible interpretation of inscriptions found in Linear A texts. Although Linear A is not yet deciphered, Palmer relates tentatively the inscription a-sa-sa-ra-me which seems to have accompanied goddesses, with the Hittite išhaššara, which means "mistress". The term labyrinth derives from 'labrys', which was a double-sided axe used by Cretan priestesses for ceremonial purposes. The primary goddess worshipped in Knossos was Potnia, an earth mother goddess

>Pelasgian creation myth involving Ophion as a serpent created by a supreme goddess called Eurynome dancing on the waves. She is fertilized by the serpent and in the form of a dove lays an egg on the waters about which Ophion entwines until it hatches and the world issues forth. Then Ophion and Eurynome dwell on Mt. Olympus until Ophion boasts that he made the world alone. Eurynome, as punishment, kicked out his teeth and banished him to the underworld. From Ophion's teeth sprang Pelasgus who taught man all the arts and crafts

>>17930362
They used it more in the Triskelion-style like the Basques, which probably symbolized the palace/labyrinth, snake goddess or the serpent itself.

>The term labyrinth derives from 'labrys', which was a double-sided axe used by Cretan priestesses for ceremonial purposes. The primary goddess worshipped in Knossos was Potnia, an earth mother goddess archetype at the top of the Minoan pantheon. A Linear B tablet discovered in Knossos associates the labyrinth with the goddess Potnia, through the line, 'Mistress of the Labyrinth’, Potnia meaning Mistress, or 'Potnia of the Labyrinth'. Thus the Minotaur could be taken to be Potnia's bull, as it would seemingly be her labyrinth

>The snake/labyrinth goddess's Minoan name may be related with A-sa-sa-ra, a possible interpretation of inscriptions found in Linear A texts. Although Linear A is not yet deciphered, Palmer relates tentatively the inscription a-sa-sa-ra-me which seems to have accompanied goddesses, with the Hittite išhaššara, which means "mistress". The term labyrinth derives from 'labrys', which was a double-sided axe used by Cretan priestesses for ceremonial purposes. The primary goddess worshipped in Knossos was Potnia, an earth mother goddess

>Pelasgian creation myth involving Ophion as a serpent created by a supreme goddess called Eurynome dancing on the waves. She is fertilized by the serpent and in the form of a dove lays an egg on the waters about which Ophion entwines until it hatches and the world issues forth. Then Ophion and Eurynome dwell on Mt. Olympus until Ophion boasts that he made the world alone. Eurynome, as punishment, kicked out his teeth and banished him to the underworld. From Ophion's teeth sprang Pelasgus who taught man all the arts and crafts

>>17930419
>In Basque mythology, Sugaar (also Sugar, Sugoi, Suarra, Maju) is the male half of a pre-Christian Basque deity associated with storms and thunder. He is normally imagined as a dragon or serpent. Unlike his female consort, Mari, there are very few remaining legends about Sugaar. The basic purpose of his existence is to periodically join with Mari in the mountains to generate the storms

>In one myth Sugaar seduces a Scottish princess in the village of Mundaka to father the mythical first Lord of Biscay, Jaun Zuria. This legend is believed to be a fabrication made to legitimize the Lordship of Biscay as a separate state from Navarre, because there is no historical account of such a lord. Only the fact that the delegates of Mundaka were attributed with the formal privilege of being the first to vote in the Biltzar (Parliament) of the province may look as unlikely indication of the partial veracity of this legend

>The name Suga(a)r is derived from suge (serpent) and -ar (male), thus "male serpent". The suggestions of a formation based on su (fire) and gar (flame), thus yielding "flame of fire" are considered folk etymology

>Sugoi, another name of the same deity, has two possible interpretations, either a suge + o[h]i (former, "old serpent") or su + goi ("high fire"). There is no likely etymology for the third name of this god, Maju

>>17930337
Off topic

>>17930306
You just ruins his thread

>>17929244 (OP)
You do know that the Mycenean civilization had collapsed centuries before Homer right? You do know that Pylos and Mycenae were attested to be seen by Pausanias in the second century? How about Mycenae, which predates the Nordic Bronze Age, and Tiryns and Argos around it, which is described accurately? Or do we just have to pretend that mighty walled Tiryns, with huge walls, was just imitated and made up because some mediterranean traders heard the story of nords ooga boogaing in the north with wooden walls and decided to build massive stone fortifications?

The Lion gate, Mycenae, all that was named and inspired after the fact by some poems heard in the north? You do know that names in a myth aren't necessarily indicative of overall fact right? The mask of Agamemnon found by Schliemann pisn't actually Agamemnon's mask, but predates the supposed events of the Trojan war. Likewise, a Bronze Age Greek palace center complete with frescoes which match the Homeric descriptions of warriors at the time (boar tusk helmets and chariots), royal burials, which was burned down which have tablets in proto Greek, located around the area the epic describes, is probably going to be called the Palace of Nestor, not because a sign was found saying 'THIS IS HOMERIC NESTOR'S PALACE'.

Another example, a giant, labyrinth like structure with bull worship being a central tenet was found in Crete, which the myths describe as being a 'labyrinth'. Oh, it doesn't say 'THIS IS THE MINOTAUR'S LABYRINTH WHERE THE KING OF CRETE LIVES'? Oh, no evidence then . ACKSHUALLY Crete is in northern Europe. You have to be borderline retarded to believe that. Not even mentally ill schizos like the paki or Illya make these ridiculous claims. Pic related, Mycenean Pylian frescoes. Oh yeah, these must be fake because Pylos is really in bumfuck finland or some shit.

>>17930189
Yeah, I shortened my post and deleted the point linking Dorians and early Greek questions. Linguists seem to think that Doric split off from proto-Greek/Greek or whatever it is before Mycenaean/Arcado-Cypriot and Ionic diverged, so that seems to imply that Greek was spoken in northern Greece before making its way to the Peloponnese and Attica. That seems to make the most sense overall but there are some people who seem to think Cetina is the better fit for proto-Greek and that Greek spread in Greece from the south north (Cetina entered via the sea). Also, unrelated to specific arguments, it's looking like there's no signal post-BA of any northern group entering the core Greek post-Mycenaean zone. Fun puzzle.

>>17929244 (OP)
The whole "Macedonians are not Greeks" meme comes from Demosthenes, the Athenian orator who was afraid that Philip II would conquer Athens, so he went on great extremes to paint them as Northern barbarians to make other Greeks rise up against him. However he was told to fuck off, mostly due to how Athens behaved with the Delian League and their general demeanour towards other Greeks. The same Demosthenes according to Aeschines, another Athenian orator who did a speech against Philip of Macedon, was a Scythian mutt and he hated Philip for political reasons.

>His father was Demosthenes of Paeania, a free man, for there is no need of lying. But how the case stands as to his inheritance from his mother and his maternal grandfather, I will tell you. There was a certain Gylon of Cerameis. This man betrayed Nymphaeum in the Pontus to the enemy, for the place at that time belonged to our city. He was impeached and became an exile from the city, not awaiting trial. He came to Bosporus and there received as a present from the tyrants of the land a place called “the Gardens.”

>Here he married a woman who was rich, I grant you, and brought him a big dowry, but a Scythian by blood. This wife bore him two daughters, whom he sent hither with plenty of money. One he married to a man whom I will not name—for I do not care to incur the enmity of many persons,—the other, in contempt of the laws of the city, Demosthenes of Paeania took to wife. She it was who bore your busy-body and informer. From his grandfather, therefore, he would inherit enmity toward the people, for you condemned his ancestors to death and by his mother's blood he would be a Scythian, a Greek-tongued barbarian—so that his knavery, too, is no product of our soil

>>17930740
>>17930805
1000% irrelevant to the statement
Disregarded

>>17930923
I'm trans btw.

>>17930693
Look, I'm open to theories, but the Cetina hypothesis doesn't have much support compared to the Thessaly hypothesis. We have the Logkas samples, for example, and some material evidence of ceramic continuity from north to south. Besides, the Greek dialects are absent in northern Macedonia, unless we went into more archaic branches, such as Greco-Phrygian. But overall, it's a pretty fun puzzle. The Dorians were just one of the branches that remained closest to the Proto-Greek area and therefore had less Minoan influence, like the Mycenaeans or Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians, possibly being semi-nomadic and rural, according to some scholars.