Thread 17933138

Much is made, in particular, of "the failure" of the Indo-Europeans in Greece, given their low steppe. But it wasn't exactly a "defeat.", Quite the contrary, it was evidence of how influential these "useless barbarians" were compared to the "civilized and superior" agricultural peoples. Yes, it's true that we don't have much genetic overlap beyond 24% with the Mycenaeans, but even with this initially insignificant gentile heritage, they adopted the language of the steppe, the gods of the steppe, and cultural and funerary elements of the steppe peoples. This is not a defeat, but a victory, even greater than war, because they didn't need to invade the area in significant numbers or cause population overlap as in the British Isles. Even with an "agricultural" population of 60% or more, they assimilated significantly into the steppe cultures. Even the word "support" has Northern Irish origins, from the word "wanax" and, consequently, from its Helladic origin, with these Indo-European influences being transferred to the elite military, we can talk about the introduction and worldview that the horse was for the early Greeks, to the point of having a patron deity to represent this, aka Poseidon.

>>17933138 (OP)
>gentile
genetic*

The problem is that they keep modeling it with a purely Yamnaya source when it might've not been that. The Balkans are poorly studied in general.

>>17933138 (OP)
Indo-European = Horses and Chariots.

Greece sucks for both much below "Macedon" and "Thrace". They loved horses and wore horse hair crests, etc....,but the Peloponnese has never been "Cowboy Country". They're sailors and faggots at heart. Not chevaliers and archers.

Interestingly enough though, Athens always used Scythians as their police. They were mounted, big, scary and blonde. Physically whipping the "Democratic" mobs into order from horseback was a common occurrence, just like riot police today.

>>17933199
What?
>>17933300
Cope
>>17933138 (OP)
Greek culture is considered minoan

>>17933395
Why exactly is Greek culture reduced to Minoan aspects? Could you explain your arguments? It's very vague. It's known that "Greek culture" has Indo-European influence, and what you consider Greek was formed only by the advent of Indo-European.
>>17933199
Catacomb Yamnaya is a good proxy, in addition to having archaeological support
>>17933300
No one is saying that the Greeks were cowboys, but the horse did have its cultural and mythological relevance

>>17933138 (OP)
Yamnaya blended out everywhere below the frostline due to relatively massive sedentary farming populations. Northwestern Europeans are only high steppe because there were mostly hunter gatherers and relatively few farmers. China, India, Anatolia, the Med, all of that was just pissing into an ocean of low quality human biomass.

If you read Thucydides he mentions the Doric invasions and ancient city state Greeks of his time not being native to Greece but from the north; the dispossessed inhabitants he refers to as Pelasgians, a non-Greek peripheral tribal people salty over their lots in life.

To me it looks like Hellenes were briefly high steppe but bled out into the east Med rapidly during the Bronze Age.

>>17933707
The ''low quality human biomass'' were the ones with actual civilizations while nordoids were illiterate mudhut savages for thousands of years after that

>>17933707
and this is irrelevant to the core of the statement

>>17933138 (OP)
The day northern europeans stop coping about ancient greece is the day they will committ mass suicide.
Listen: you were NEVER non feminist.
Northern europeans are and will always be, pussy whipped cucks.
When you read about the woman treatment in greece you should've immediately concluded "yeah, these guys are not us..."
You picked more subsaharian paternal lines in the brief period of modern migration than SPANIARDS, that got conquered by 1/4 SSA almoravids.
You will NEVER be greeks.
You will always be small time vikings, feminist, merchants, but the greatness of the mycenaean, the athenian, the dorian is alien to you.
The highest steppe sample found in the balkans cluster with like Emilians. This is the most "northern" indo europeans were ever in the balkans. Everyone else, Thracians, Illyrians, Mycenaeans, all cluster with italians from different regions, meaning they were most of the time closer to lebanese people than you.
Stop coping, I beg you. It's only gonna hurt more in the future.

>>17933707
OP literally said how useless this was for their cultural conquest and in fact the agricultural populations were not "massive", the Balkans were not that populous Aegean and Balkans are different things

>>17933738
I will not read this entire text, for the simple fact that we have a clear lack of hysterical interpretation here by you, go back and read my statement calmly this time, and thank you for visiting, see>>17933732
>>17933745
So not everyone here dropped out of school in elementary school?

>>17933720
"Actual civilization" here being the ancient equivalent of high density equatorial states where everyone lies, cheats and steals constantly and everything smells like piss and shit, miss me with that garbage.

Staying above the frostline and developing interpersonal dependability and a sense of smell was crucial to actual advanced civilization that thebHellenes kickstarted.

>>17933738
Why do you have to write like someone from an Amazonian beast, you idiot? Stop attacking a scarecrow and remove your Nordic guests from your head, living non-stop on rent. Otherwise, it's a low-quality post and based solely on ad hominem. We have Indo-European beyond the southern Balkans, like the Logkas samples with 45% steppe to begin with.

>>17933758
Modern northern europeans cheat on each other more than any other people in history. They also get screwed up by their governments pretty hard, not dissimilar to many absolute monarchies in history. The difference between a mesopotamian paesant and a northern euro is that the latter lives more.

>>17933761
The logkas sample clusters with emilians, which are, for your information, the swarthiest northern italians, and it's a woman in a cave. Of course you will ignore that she is a fucking sex slave and pretend it's a conqueror.

>>17933767
Fuck who they cluster or not, you clown, you lost the argument and and keep bringing irrelevant things into the conversation
The point here is "high steppe," and 45% versus 20% is a stark difference. Dilate and cry.
>Of course you will ignore that she is a fucking sex slave and pretend it's a conqueror
There is no evidence of this and you will have to present the description of the tombs where archaeologists make such statements and explain what connection these remains were in life, the burden is on you.

>>17933780
>connection
Context*

>>17933748
He can't read and he has Nordic people living in his head without paying rent.

>>17933138 (OP)
Indo europeans kinda lost in the balkans. I think it's because the ANF there were really advanced metallurgist (look at mycenaean armors, they are incredible) and so they couldn't bully them like they always did. It's the only place where the steppe nomads had to concede a large part of their women to ANF. Really high % of haplos from pre-IE. Everyone else got raped hard.

>>17933790
>lost
How do you define "losing"? The Spanish were transferred to places like Bolivia or Peru? Quite the opposite, we have the prevalence of the Indo-European language and culture, not the "ANF" (who didn't even exist in the Balkans; you can't even differentiate cultures properly).
>look at mycenaean armors, they are incredible
Aegean armor, daggers, and swords are derived from versions of the Aegean swords. Naue II swords were exported from Europe to the Aegean and as far away as Ugarit, and the "oldest" Anatolian swords are actually daggers. Their perceived role varied, at various times, from ritual objects, but not warlike ones. It's worth noting that the PIE had a word for "dagger" in their vocabulary, copper, gold, and silver. The earliest use of an iron object was in the Bronze Age, and was made by Indo-Europeans of the Catacomb culture. So using all this as an argument for material inferiority wasn't a good move. Unfortunately for you, urnfield armor penetrated the Aegean as well.

>>17933790
>Really high % of haplos from pre-IE. Everyone else got raped hard.
This has been explained a million times and only amateurs who would know how to explain how haplogroup clades work would say something like this. Haplogroup "J", which is dominant in the Balkans and Greece, is of Indo-European origin, because in case you don't know, R1a and R1a were not the only clades adjacent to Indo-Europeans. So try again.

>>17933826
Only j2b is. There are tons of other J clades other than that.
Stop being a smug bastard when you don't know anything you fucking retard.

>>17933786
Probably
he didn't even try to read my statement without having a nervous breakdown

>>17933828
name the "others".
the little bitch lost her cool? but I'm glad she backtracked, and at least I assumed that J has IE origin as well, but name me the "other" clades

>>17933836
>at least I
You*

>>17933836
Are you serious? You're calling me a little bitch too after being a smug bastard? Fuck you.
J2b isn't even close to being the only J sample in the balkans, there is even J1, J2a, and a shit ton of others. Leaving aside EV-13 that is extremely present in all of southern europe and came 99% from ANF in the balkans. (Prob spread by Imperial Romans).

>>17933842
>eupedia
disregarded.
You didn't answer me, I asked you to tell me which clades of the Balkan populations are not of Indo-European origin, you probably know more than me, so we are waiting. Show us and try not to stray from the main statement, I want to know about the specific clades of the Balkans

>>17933842
You are the dumbest one here, congratulations, the European E is of EEF origin

>>17933851
What

>>17933849
I'm still waiting for an answer as to which classes other than J2b are not of Indo-European origin in the Balkan populations

>>17933826
Every haplo is indo-euro saar. in fact everything is saar

>>17933892
I accept your concession

>>17933138 (OP)
>Even the word "support" has Northern Irish origins
What the fuck? How does "Wanax" originate from Ulster Irish? Or what the fuck are you even saying?

Friends, the theories are on the table and the most logical, supported and accepted are all about the origin of the Greeks, now it's up to you
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0092867421003706-mmc1.pdf

>>17933972
It was my mistake, I meant Indo-European, not Irish*

>>17934040
In short? These hypotheses are pure garbage and no one knows anything, because it's better to say
>it's complicated
>we don't know
>in fact, it was all factors at the same time
nothing is done objectively here, so no one knows

>>17934040
All hypotheses are terrible and illogical, garbage. The only most logical and accepted theory is that the Proto-Greek arrived with Helladic III, although the archaeological evidence is weak. When the study came out, and I went to the supplementary materials, I sensed a certain preconceived idea among the authors. They cite several and several hypotheses, but always emphasize how the invasion theory is currently denied by the "consensus," and that this is nothing more than erroneous "migrationism" (yes, they used that word). And they give credit to several hypotheses and don't always show their problems, such as theories that in fact were all possible factors that led to the Proto-Greek, such as drought, disease, trade, etc., and they claim it is consensus, but authors who talk about new emerging peoples are considered refutable and "rejected." Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone is "hiding something," but there is a clear bias. just read this supplement that didn't help at all.

There are numerous places in Europe where 'steppe' (R1a/R1b) is not very dominant. Scandinavia, Baltics, Finland, Balkans, Central/South Italy, etc. And also pic related. Bell Beakers were matriarchal cuckolds.

>>17933138 (OP)
>gods of the steppe
Name one definitive Aegean deity aside from Zeus from the Greek pantheon. Not some proto Indo European reconstructed cope, I mean real evidence.

>Poseidon
Mostly attested to deity with most sacrifices in Mycenaean Greece. Pre Greek neolithic, defined as being black haired.
Apollo:
Pre Greek Pelasgian deity of pestilence and music. Syncretized later with sun deities.
>Artemis
Pre Greek Pelasgian deity of animals, sister to Apollo, fertility and nature- no steppe influence, bear animal like deity
>Athena
Pre Greek fertility warrior goddess similar to "potnia" a Minoan goddess known to have Poseidon as consort. Multiple female deities draw parallels and origins with her: Hera, Persephone, Demeter. Syncretized with neolithic war traditions later

The list is longer. Ares, pre Greek, Hera, pregreek, Dionysus, Aphrodite all pre Greek. You could argue that Zeus being dyeus pater was the supreme union between yamnaya and neolithic cultures giving them a definitive Mycenaean/post Mycenaean identity, but Greeks did NOT inherit their gods deities and stories exclusively from proto Indo European yamnaya.

>>17933738
TRVTH NVKE

>>17935545
>gods of the steppe
>Not some proto Indo European reconstructed cope, I mean real evidence.
You just said you don't accept real evidence. There's no point in debating an unreasonable anti-intellectual who thinks others will entertain him just because he thinks linguistics is invalid if he doesn't personally understand it.

Ares is Indo-European, lmao. What makes these people so over confident when they don't even bother to research the topics they are so passionate about?
https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/if-2014-0011/html

>>17935571
Because it's shit evidence and the other evidence is far more grounded and compelling than some nordicist copium. Coward.

>>17933765
This is in large part due to the outcome of World War II, Jews consider white Europeans to be a blood enemy and have redirected uncountable fortunes into trying to destroy this population through subterfuge.

>>17933720
looks comfy to me

>>17936349
saar where are the shitting streets where are the parasites saar

>>17936350
Greece is literally seen as the India of Europe.

>>17936355
Realistically albania kosovo serbia macedonia etc...
Are the india of europe.
There was a period where every eastern euro migrant that wasn't from greece was called gypsie.

>>17935545
There's also Sumerian and Semitic gods worshipped by the Ancient Greeks.

>>17936359
imagine the sheer delusion of thinking some illiterate greek peasant crossing himself fervently to protect himself from the evil eye was the cultural superior of the typical balkanoid kek

>>17933138 (OP)
Sure smells like some balkanoid larper thinking he is white in here

>>17936365
Many of the Ancient 'Greeks' were originally in fact Semitic as proven by the accounts of the Sea People speaking of circumcised nations to the north. The later 'Greeks' were the descendents of their agricultural slaves.

>>17933780
>the absolute state of this coping snowtranny
Logkas is just something they use as a proxy. They are not even confirmed to be Greeks.

>>17933738
/thread

>>17933767
>Of course you will ignore that she is a fucking sex slave and pretend it's a conqueror.
kek
>>17935580
Is this like the Jews equating Apollo as Apollyon and saying its the same as Abaddon out of spite to make their "god" look better by comparison?

>>17936552
there is confirmation, it is a steppe proxy even for the Mycenaean Greeks, now shut up

>>17935545
>Poseidon
Indo-European not only etymologically, but also mythologically in every sense, since he was originally the patron horse god of the Indo-Europeans who arrived in Greece and later gained their aquatic attributes, although they were already present. Poseidon literally transformed into a horse, for example, and has very specific mythological similarities with Varuna. Try again. Ares has Indo-European etymology, and Athena was Indo-Europeanized. Apollo has Indo-European etymology and comes from Anatolia, but from Anatolia with the IE language.
>Dionysus
is literally Indo-European, dios+nusos (son of zeus)

>>17936632
See how the monkey keep projecting muh hair color

>>17936626
hey retard, don't start larpagan discussion here, nobody even mentioned "abrahamic" here, besides the comparison is garbage

>>17936632
>Varuna
He was originally a sky god, who ruled over divine law, and was partnered with Mitra. You would have equated him with Uranus instead.
Only centuries later did he become connected to the waters.

To me personally I connect it to the way entities like Dimmuzi and Baldr go from being associated to light and end up in the abyss.

>>17936645
It always irks your people to get called out, doesnt it?