Thread 17933984

Why do people still glorify Ceasar and Augustus even though they were a threat to democracy?
>it was a long time ago so it doesn't count

>>17933984 (OP)
No one glorifies them besides normies who learnt about Rome from video games and movies.

>>17933984 (OP)
Nobody glorifies Augustus, not even in the past. He is seen as largely evil but a highly competent ruler.

which democracy? Rome wasn't democratic, Karl Popper wasn't born yet to invent it.

The "democracy" at that point was a few dozen wealthy families making policy, while caesar was extremely popular with the common people of rome. There was a reason why people often preferred to live in monarchies instead of republics in the ancient world

>>17933984 (OP)
When the system became to unwieldy, the politicians to entrenched for the system to work as intended, these guys were a breath of fresh air. It only worked for a time before things were worse than before though.
Hope for Ceasar, get Nero. Which brings yesterday's thought. Eventually people ruined the next prospective Emperor before they even had a chance to rule. In their vain pursuit of power.

You reckon Brutus and the rest killed Caesar because he was a threat to democracy?

>>17934147
Likely Republic was the thing on their mind.
And yeah, probably.

Late Republic Rome was an oligarchy that Augustus changed into an autocracy

Was it ever anything approaching a true democracy even at the height of the Republic? I don't think so

>>17934250
This is OP's fault but did Roman's ever act like they cared about Democoracy at all? Even if their Republic was partially Democratic in effect. Don't believe they did.

>>17933984 (OP)
Rome was never a democracy
>Oy vey, I meant republic
Last generations of the Republic were constant civil wars and no one living could remember the times when the system was stable. They were grateful for finally bringing peace
>Okay, goym, but they did end the Republic. What about the poor people that now were exploited by evil cesarian regime.
Life of common people was better and safer during Augustus. No wars meant no raiding armies, grow of trade and commerce. Spending money on art instead of armaments. In the old times, the senators often used to farm taxes on poor peasants but now there was someone higher than them, protecting interests of his every subject.
>B-But muh Romans swore to never let be ruled by a mercha.. I mean a king!
Yes, and theoritically they were still a Republic, with one person serving as the princeps - the first citizen. Some of them were pro-republican, like Nerva, some of them pro-absolutism, like Domitian. They never had at their hand the enforcement methods of modern "democratic" politicians and they always needed to appease the major forces within the empire - the Senate, the People, the Army, and the Pretorians.

>>17934271
As time progressed, the senate mattered less and less and the praetorians more and more as far as appeasement was concerned

because the political regime they set up endured so well the empire of city states morphed into a territorial state and provincial governors became the precedent of feudalism
the main clusters of medieval city states in italy and flanders ironically built on the ruins of the justinianic wars and middle francia respectively. The first a distant successor and the second part of a deliberate attempt to recreate it.

>>17934154
The Republic that was not a democracy?

>>17933984 (OP)
Democracy is fucking gay

>>17933984 (OP)
Pop it like it's hard

>>17933984 (OP)
>implying democracy is a good thing
it evidently isn't

>>17934271
>and the Pretorians.
Holy pop-history
>>17934274
The Praetorian guard at best acted as an aid the the politics of the elite. In the 2nd century they were a near non-entity and only briefly played on the political stage in the 3rd. After Maxentius they were dissolved entirely. Which even by Diocletian's reign they were just no longer even important in any way, Galerius didn't even bother with them.

The Roman Senate be like

>>17934317
You're right. But from the time of Tiberius to at least the time of Diocletian they were bonafide kingmakers. That's a long stretch and a very significant stretch of history.

>>17934318
Then about a hundred years later an Emperor married his horse and stabbed twinks in their but cheek. Where are those men now, when we need them the most?

>>17934034
This. The king's job is to keep nobles off of the people's backs.

>>17933984 (OP)
>implying democracy is good thing
Just look at vax event, the masses are legit cattle, they are not human beings

>>17933984 (OP)
Trump is a threat to the freedom of democracy and the republic,

because democracy is cringe and Roma Invicta or something

>>17934570
>country collapses

Caesar is a budget Alexander the Great. The most overrated historical person of all time. Just like anything Romans had done and made, it’s just a downgrade copycat of far more superior Hellenic civilization. His Latin prose is also laughably simple and uninspiring.

>>17933984 (OP)
People respect power and competence over democracy (oligarchy).

Caesar also wrote much of his own story so we have few alternatives to his propaganda.

>>17934583
stabbed in the back

>>17934815
By who? They were at war with the entire world basically in WWI and all fronts were collapsing.

>>17934023
We are so fortunate to have historian Mary Beard posting on /his/

>>17933984 (OP)
Numerous opposed the implementation of Cura Annonae and rightfully so.
>Clodius' grain law increased the number of beneficiaries to include every male citizen, approximately 320,000, regardless of status or wealth. This proved an unsustainable extravagance.
Financially there were people who prospered greatly.

>>17933984 (OP)
I'd say Trajan was more glorified historically speaking.

>>17934671
The beauty is in the simplicity. Not that I totally disagree with you.

>>17934034
this

>>17933984 (OP)
>>17934010
Maybe the chuds should start looking into their shared adopted son instead.

>>17933984 (OP)
because rome was falling apart and they prolonged it's falling-aprtness for a couple more centuries

>>17937234
>Rome will fall soon. Just two hundred more years

>>17934023
>not even in the past
???
They did glorify him back then

>>17936148
Great book. Even non-romeaboos downplay how evil and corrupt the republic/empire was

>>17933984 (OP)
It's not about democracy. Some people simply have an admiration for power

>>17933984 (OP)
What democracy?

>>it was a long time ago so it doesn't count
This is like scolding Abraham Lincoln or FDR because they didn't support trans rights.

They were born into a world that was a terrible place full of slavery and tyranny and they left it a little more united, a little less ignorant, they did not solve every problem in the world, but they certainly improved it. Imperivm Romanvm was a light of civilization to the world and it is because of them that we finally did see democracy and an end to slavery, because the rule of law and spread of civilization, literate society and new technology is the first step on a long journey towards these things.

>>17937645
Caesar was described as dark-eyed

>>17937645
The parthians (and most contemporary people) didn't have institutionalized boy rape

>>17937617
it was funny read, especially considering the author
well sourced and well written too

>>17933984 (OP)
Hype and aura moments.

>>17934123
Cicero’s quote about hushing up and being quiet around jews in the Roman Senate is starting to make hella sense.

>>17934815
By the military, yes.

>>17933984 (OP)
Rome wasn't ever a democracy

>>17934034
>The "democracy" at that point was a few dozen wealthy families making policy
>at that point

>>17939766
Our government (burgerland) was partially based off of rome's, but we're still definitely more democratic than them, esp. with the past few centuries of reforms

>>17933984 (OP)
Probably because the republic was broken for the average person with no jobs and people having a lot of issues

Cause he won. Winners may not write history but historians think they make excellent page turners
>>17934023
Hi Historia Civilis! Any news on the next episode?

>>17935022
At least he reads, this is more than most on this board

>>17940151
We are considerably less democratic than Rome, at least functionally speaking. Not that more democracy would necessarily solve our problems, but our republic is not democratic.

>>17940370
Almost every permanent us resident is a citizen, every citizen can vote for officials, and all of those votes are counted equally (besides presidential elections.)
That alone makes modern america far more democratic than it was at its founding, which was itself much more democratic than the roman republic when caesar lived

>>17940424
Do you well and truly believe that the votes you cast mean literally anything? It's why I said functionally and not legally. In Rome the voting was weighted but it at least actually meant something.

>>17940491
Do you have any idea wtf you're talking about?
>In Rome
That's the key word. The average iberian would've been ruled by a governor who was appointed by, and exclusively accountable to rome.
To put this in modern terms, imagine if your state was ruled despotically by a random guy from washington dc that they chose for you. Now imagine that he's trying to squeeze as much tax revenue from your state as possible (governorships were a common path to wealth.)
>voting was weighted
Forget even voting if you were a slave, which was a large chunk of the populace in the city of rome
>least actually meant something
When it truly did mean something the senate usually killed them, like with the gracchus brothers

>>17934671
alex is more overrated
i think if phillip had survived to invade himself he would have won just as much and wouldnt had let it go to his head so much so he gets poisoned

>>17933984 (OP)
They gave us the alphabet AND the calendar stfu and be greatful for christmas and a good typface

>>17941403
The calendar was better when people could arbitrarily add days to certain points in the year for political gain

He's pretty much a mythical character at this point.

>>17940521
>like with the gracchus brothers

Gracchii brothers*

>>17933984 (OP)
The Rome of the last century before Ceasar before was a barely functioning shithole with constant civil wars. The modern equivalent to it would be somewhere like the DRC, Central Africa or Myanmar mixed with Russia or the UK. Rome's heckin democracy was a cancer for everyone involved and Rome only survived as long as it did because of Caesar and Augustus