Thread 17947731

Why wasn't it a good defense?

I'm not sure of the specifics but I remember that this was in reference to actions outside of the holocaust. Like executing special forces

>>17947731 (OP)
There is no good defense in a kangaroo court, if you're in globohomo's hands nothing you say will convince them to spare you.

>>17947734
I'll have to look it up, but there were a lot of other things they were on trial for and the holocaust was the last like 5%. It was largely a shitshow though

>>17947731 (OP)
Probably because they were usually giving out said orders

>>17947731 (OP)
You were not "only following orders". You were putting a plan in motion knowing full well what they led to.

The most famous use of this defense was Wilhelm Keitel and the main charge against him was that he passed an order to essentially execute any suspected traitors. This is pretty common with Germans. The Einsatzgruppen carried this out. The US did the same thing to its own civilians during the Civil War.

It is interesting that the most well documented atrocities were committed by Keitel yet he's in nobody's vocabulary. I wonder if it's because all the evidence of the "communist executions" was documented by the Germans with photographs while the Holocaust doesn't even have a lever puller

Because their guilt was decided in advance, duh.

>>17947731 (OP)
Those were show trials meant to humiliate the Germans and destroy nationalism.

Guilty of being a Chud

>>17947731 (OP)
Because the Allies didn't capture Hitler.

If Hitler has been on trial, it's quite likely that "just following orders" would have worked fine for the lesser Nazis, and Hitler would have been forced to take the blame for everything. But since he was already dead, accepting the following orders defense would have meant that there was nobody to punish.

>>17947743
This isn't about the holocaust. It's just hard for me to grasp disobeying your superiors when you're a soldier or officer as if that's normal and acceptable.

It actually did work for most of the rank and file soldiers

>>17947874
Well that's the only reason anybody remembers these trials

Jews spread ill will of themselves by killing gaza browns and having the most rabid aipac shabbos goys sniffing their butt holes threatening to punishing anyone not agreeing or supporting their end of times christcuck armageddon rapture cargo cult.

>>17947887
An interesting consequence to be sure, that the only thing anybody remembers about WWII is jews

>>17947874
Executing prisoners of war is wrong and if you followed an order you were complicit in the murder.

>>17947731 (OP)
>why
because history is written by the winners thats why

>>17947731 (OP)
Because they were the ones giving the orders, retard.

>>17947731 (OP)
Murder is murder, no matter the orders

>>17947739
>>17947809
Nazis didn't even give anyone a trial. Who cares.

It was well documented that no one was physically punished for refusing an order that involved killing someone unarmed. If a soldier refused an execution etc, he would simply be allowed to sit it out.
If an officer refused an order, at worst he would be sacked (and many did and thus were).

Hitler did not shoot his generals. He even did not outright sack them. He merely put them on "sick leave" indefinetly.

Nuremberg was a farce tho, for the very fact that the Soviets were among the judges. Anyone who doesnt see this is a moron.
It's quite absurd how the Soviets could sit there and pass judgement on the Germans for aggressive war and crimes against peace.

Also, some of the Germans were sentenced for no reason other than simply being too nazi to be allowed back into German public life. Dönitz being a good example.

>>17947731 (OP)
It would’ve been a solid defense, but the problem is the trial found plenty of examples of these guys disobeying orders when convenient, so it was obviously just an excuse.

>>17947731 (OP)
a lot of those guys got away with it because the prosecution read the facts of the case thinking the nazis would succumb to the list of their crimes. instead it gave the defense the opportunity to ask for sympathy. they would go on long winded rants pointing the blame on the guys who killed themselves since they were all dead. “lol it was hitler’s idea”. makes you wonder if they went through all of that why didn’t they take pride in their accomplishments? why were they more preoccupied trying to save their own asses instead of dying with pride? if they weren’t willing to die for their beliefs then why the fuck did they do it?

>>17948006

>history is wrong because we didn't win

>>17947739

krauts got away with it though, why are you complaining?

>>17948163

in a just world the US and UK would've just handed Germany over to the Soviets.

>>17947797

because America more or less covered up as much as it could regarding Germany post-The Great Patriotic War

>The US did the same thing to its own civilians during the Civil War.

which is also why the US saw this war as parallel to its own conflict not even 100 years ago from 1945.

and like that conflict, America favored rehabilitation over revenge and cruelty upon their defeated enemy no matter how evil a cause they fought for.

what mind breaks europoors, ESLs, thirdies, is that America wins wars with such uncontested technological and numerical superiority and when the enemy surrenders/is defeated/launches an insurgency, America doesn't simply kill them all + enslave the women + annex the land... which was the norm until less than 200 years ago

>yet he's in nobody's vocabulary

christianity is barely mentioned at all when covering nazi germany because it would mean the german people waged war not for the nazi party, but for the lawless one, anti-christ, satan, etc...

during the coldwar keeping America was hellbent in preventing demoralization of west germany + american support for germany

after the cold war nothing changed because priorities changed + the people in charge of german denazification were all dead.

it's also best to remember the conflict with somber reverence when you do learn about The Great Patriotic War beyond highschool/college, not a means to instill mean spirited thinking into the otherwise eager to forgive american public

>>17948150
this, neonazis love to cope and say they had to do it or get executed for insubordination, but when German soldiers DID start refusing orders to commit atrocities en masse, they stopped even trying to order regular soldiers to do it and moved to relying entirely on German volunteers and Ukrainian PoWs who were let out of the camps in exchange for doing the dirty work

>>17948351
It was american PoW who carried out executions. Get your facts straight

>>17948328
>in a just world the US and UK would've just handed Germany over to the Soviets.
>The Great Patriotic War

>>17948388

>a movie about ww2 made of witty dialogue and a marvel disney ending of killing hitler in a movie theater

in a just world world there would still be 2 Germanys

>>17947731 (OP)
for starters, it was a political trial

>>17947874
you're supposed to disobey illegal orders and be a human being before you're a soldier
mindless obedience is how atrocities happen

>>17947731 (OP)
Mindless NPCs in shambles, lmao.

Just think for youself.

>>17947731 (OP)
>Waffen-SS lieutenant-colonel Otto Skorzeny's defence at the Dachau trials argued his alleged violations of the laws of war during the Battle of the Bulge were permitted by the military code of his opponent, the United States Army.

it worked btw

>>17947731 (OP)
because they lost

>>17948421
most people are not capable of that. They really are NPCs. Which is why it's a bit unfair to punish them for their NPCness. They can't go against their nature

>>17948146
there is no universal definition for murder, let alone universal punishment for it. That goes for all other 'crimes' too. Which is why the whole Nuremberg Trial was a series of asspulls thrown from both sides. In the end the trial was indeed the victors of the war making the decisions based on their own subjective viewpoint

>>17948328
I don't think the German offing communists made the US think of themselves. I think it made the US think of how much they hated communists. Yet here they were allied with them. The US was more than willing to let the Russians make up what ever they wanted at Nuremberg. I'm of the opinion that in actuality the only reason we helped Russia was twofold, they showed us kindness during the US civil war and the US wanted to keep a strong geopolitical power in the area in order to essentially "dump off" the recovery efforts in the east onto. Rather than being ideological keeping Russia around was probably financial. And when Russia "turned" on the US all the US had to do was turn off the money and watch them starve

>>17947731 (OP)

what about this dude?

>>17948475
this, following orders is much safer choice than not following them. kikes know that and should stop gaslighting everybody

>>17947749
That is why you use the defense of following orders.
They’re not saying “I didn’t know I was only following orders” they’re saying “I had no choice I was a soldier I had to follow orders”.

>>17948148
The Nazis weren’t at peace and allowed to hold a massive months long trial.

>>17948351
>Neo Nazis
Are they with us now, Pidor?
>>17948406
Why do anti German?

>>17947731 (OP)
They weren't even allowed to question the veracity of the charges. It was presupposes that they murdered 6 million jews. There is no proof that the crime was committed and those "trials" never proved that one was.

>>17948577
But nobody of them denied the abuse and genocide of Jewish people and other crimes, they said they either didn't know, dind't do anything to help it or they been forced to carry it out

>>17948586
>But nobody of them denied the abuse and genocide
They weren't allowed to. Questioning if it happened wasn't permitted.

>>17948586
Goring called the footage of the labor camps a lie

>>17948643
oh sorry they were still death camps back then

>>17948635
>They weren't allowed to
What do you mean they weren't allowed to? What was stopping them from telling that it didn't happen?
>Goring called the footage of the labor camps a lie
He also acknowladge that the genocide was happening and said it was Himmler fault

>>17948660
>What do you mean they weren't allowed to?
Reasons

>>17948668
>ai
anyway, why nobody said that it didn't happen? why not even the most fanatical nazis who to the end stayed on Hitler side and knew that they were going to get hanged, didn't question the genocide of jews?

>>17948148
>ummm obfuscating cynical violence is actually much better than being honest about it!!

>>17948676
You see the little paperclips in the picture? Those are the links yo the sources for the information.

Next time do better.

>>17948443
This. It was basically a roman triumph I modern uniform.

>>17948792
are you going to answer why no nazi denied the holocaust or no?

>>17948854
As it was explained to you here >>17948577 they weren't allowed to.

>>17948858
So the allies said
>ok, you can't say that holocaust didn't happen!
and all of those nazis just obeyed without question?

>>17948676
>>17948660
They did but they did so off the record. Everything they said at the trial was struck from the record if it didn’t accord with pre-written statements from the US.

>>17948854
They did you fucking retard.
“Why not at the trial” it was struck from the record. Off the record EVERYONE said it didn’t happen.
How many Nazi Memoirs have you read?
The commander of the 12th SS said it was a lie.
One of the brigade officers of the 1st SS said it was lie even saying Malmedy was a lie and he saw the Americans trading shots with the Germans after being captured.

>>17948882
>how come they couldn't do whatever they wanted
You don't know how court works.

>>17949026
They couldn't form words? What stopped them from saying
>it didn't happen
?

>>17949029 as this anon said
>>17949013

>>17949045
so on record they say it happen but off record (source: random neonazi on 4chan) say it didn't? why would they contradict themselves like that?

>>17949029
kikes in charge

>>17949049
No retard. As this anon said >>17949011

>>17949051
how did kikes in charge control their tonuges and vocal cords?
>>17949053
but all of them acknowledged genocide of jews

>>17949060
>all of them acknowledged genocide of jews
No, retard. They were not allowed, in court, to challenge that presupposition.

>>17949062
why they didn't disobey it then?

>>17949071
That option was not allowed. Court is not a free for all, do as you will, affair. You speak when allowed, and only about what is allowed.

>>17949079
>That option was not allowed.
So the nazis didn't uncover the biggest lie and conspiracy on earth before that ruined their reputation forever as the good guys on the cameras because... they werent' allowed to say that?

>>17949117
You either don't know or pretend not to know how court works. Tiresome

>>17948148
There are 10 million non-Europeans in Germany.

>>17949245
court robs you of your ablity to speak?

>>17949263
Yes. They will physically gag you if you insist on speaking out of turn about subjects that aren't permitted. In court you do not do what you want.

>>17949263
It's not a trial if there's no cross examination. Everybody knew it was fubar because executing irregular partisans (guerillas) is allowed under international law

Now if you'd like you could try an make an argument that the people they killed weren't communist partisans

>>17949316
Why they didn't gag the nazis then?

>>17949327
Is razing an entire village with women and small children allowed under international law?

>>17949336
Were the women involved in assisting communist terrorists?

>>17949341
maybe they were, maybe they weren't, maybe the partistans just stole from them
not like nazis cared about gathering evidence when they locked men, women and few year old children into the barn and burn them alive while dancing to their screams

>>17949346
>maybe
So it's possible the women executed that you just complained about were partisans?

>>17949348
just asit is possible that you are helping ISIS terrorist and your entire family no matter the age deserves to be raped and burned alive for this

>>17949354
So then it's not even a settled topic and there's seemingly nobody (that you know of) making inferences into the people killed that people use as the definitive evidence of German atrocities

>>17949358
>So then it's not even a settled topic
Yeah, germans mostly used collective punishment when raping murdering men women and small children
here you have.
Here you have a public announcement by Nazi Germany in occupied Serbia on 21 October 1941, stating that the killing of 2,300 people in the Kragujevac massacre was carried out in retaliation for the killing of 10 German soldiers by the Yugoslav Partisans, and warning that punishments of the "same severity" (100 people for each killed soldier and 50 people for each wounded soldier) will take place for future incidents.

>>17947731 (OP)
>implying
no defence was good defence for that kangaroo court

>>17949364
Yes Keitel told them specifically to kill communist partisans brutally to scare communists terrorists into not becoming partisans

So were they partisans?

>>17949377
>So were they partisans?
No, they were hostages aka innocent people seized as a leverage to stop partistant attacks

>>17949384
Are you sure they weren't the people helping the partisans?

>>17949393
Germans seized them as a leverage hostages and not for helping paristans so yes

>>17949400
that's odd why woudl partisans care about random people are you sure they didn't seize people the partisans knew? perhaps people helping them from within the ghetto system?

>>17949410
nope, germans seized them as leverage hostages, i'm sorry if this fact hurts your feelings but such is the reality

>>17949415
okay and you have a single document or study that definitively proves this?

>>17949421
proves what? no germans no anybody else accused or suspect them of helping partistans, they were took as leverage hostages

It was obviously just a shallow and pathetic attempt to escape justice, nothing they said was actually genuine.

>>17949429
source?

>>17949439
>>17949364

>>17949445
No a source that they were random executions, you know the entire claim that these were war crimes?

It would be really easy to actually prove the germans did war crimes but you guys are either too stupid to do it yourself or it didn't happen

>>17949449
murdering hostages (not partistans) is not a war crime?

>>17949455
Source that they weren't partisans? Just saying that people weren't illegal partisans isn't proof. You retard

>>17949461
>>17949364

>>17949462
That doesn't say they weren't partisans retard

>>17949463
Does it say they were?

>>17949466
So you admit you're retarded and you don't know and are making assumptions based on your preconceived bias?

>>17949471
I gave you a source about german murdering over 2000 hostages they kidnap, cope or embrace it, your choice

>>17949474
Okay and executing irregular unmarked enemy combatants isn't a war crime

>>17949477
what about hostages that weren't acused of being partistans by germans? are they ok to kill?

>>17949479
>hostages that weren't acused of being partistan
Source?

>>17949482
>>17949364

>>17948148
You'd say the Nazis were right on this one?

>>17949487
So I'm just going to assume you're a bad actor until you can post something definitive to explain your bias

>>17949492
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

>>17949496
So you're saying you can't find institutional proof of Germans executing innocent people. But anecdotally you think you found a single instance where innocent's were killed? But you don't actually know if they were innocent or not and are proudly ignorant of this?

>>17949501
>>17949364

>>17949505
Okay so you're a mindbroken biased bad actor

>>17949507
just kind sad about nazis murdering hostages

>>17949508
Are you going to cry about your little fantasy tranny?

>>17949330
Nobody likes to be physically abused and if the option is sit down and shut up or get your jaw busted that isn't a real choice.

You don't talk in court and when you're allowed to talk you don't talk about what you aren't allowed to talk about.

>>17947731 (OP)
Because the entire point of the trials were to punish anyone they could, not to convict on logical and just reasoning.

Same reason why nuking Japan was seen as 'good', because the victors punish the losers to destroy any hope. Same reason EU was invented, to punish Russia

>>17949516
what would you say to the murdered children? germans said that it was because some people on the other side of the country attacked german soldiers and they are being punished for that

>>17949518
So top nazis were scared of the gag and this is why nobody quesiton holocaust?

>>17949523
>I don't know if the people murdered were partisans
>I'm just going to assume they weren't
That makes you a liar
>Think of the children!
A Jewish liar

Remember you're not trying to prove you don't personally like Germans, you're trying to prove the committed war crimes

>>17949536
germans didn't accuse them of being partisans and they still killed them, why?

>>17949540
You don't have a source for that you're just making that up. Literal pilpul

>>17949542
>>17949364
why germans didn't say that they are shooting partisants?

>>17949049
>Neo Nazi is when you explain reality to incredulous /his/trionics
>>17949060
>>17949071
>why didn’t they disobey
What do you mean? They tried. The Nuremberg records would not include their objections to the evidence. They made them, but the prosecution struck it from the record.

What should they have done?
>they should have said
They did, they said it both during the trial and after. It wasn’t recorded at Nuremberg because objections were not recorded. The Germans had zero control over what the official legal transcripts kept and struck.

>>17949546
Semantics, pilpul, lies. You have nothing. You're completely uneducated on the subject and admittedly proudly ignorant of the victim's status with terrorism

>>17949550
>>17949551
why germans didn't say that they were shooting partisants?

>>17949263
Yes, it robs you of your ability to speak to the future. You can say whatever you want in court. But it will be struck from the record if it doesn’t align with the pre-written statements given by the prosecution to the defendants.

Like this
>someone slanders you
>you protest
>they ignore you can keep publishing the slander
What are the Germans supposed to do?

>>17949552
English please

>>17949540
>>17949546
>>17949552
They did. It wasn’t recorded because it didn’t align with the pre-written statements.

>>17949554
But they weren't gaged, which means they didn't even try to quesiton holocaust
>>17949557
>they did just trust me
lol

>>17949560
>They didn't, trust me
Were the people killed Jews?

>>17947731 (OP)
Because having morality and a conscious is the basis for all law codes. Otherwise why have laws against anything if anything is permissible under certain circumstances?

>>17949565
not this time, they murdered 2000 serb hostages

>>17948328
>and like that conflict, America favored rehabilitation over revenge and cruelty upon their defeated enemy no matter how evil a cause they fought fo
Reconstruction period contradicts it.

>>17949560
>I haven’t looked into Nuremberg at all
we know.
You believe the holocaust happened? Why are you here? Why does it matter to you if people disagree? Why are protecting the orthodoxy? What do you gain from this? You personally I mean.
>gaged
Learn English.
Their objections were taken down off the record but not submitted into the official proceedings. You obviously haven’t read the accounts of the doctors, MPs, and clerks.
Start with what the people who worked at Nuremberg said about Nuremberg.

But you won’t because you’re a seething second worlder who is just elated their perceived racial enemy is being attacked.
I will personally donate money to Putin in the event Russia invades Poland. I would enlist to fight Russia only to punish Slavs.
America already liberalizing on anti-hate laws.
Your time is up. You should have engaged in good faith.

>>17949568
Serbian nationalists?

>>17949574
who are you quoting
>>17949576
The official German reason was that they were nationalists and democrats
is killing nationalists and democrats a war crime?

>>17949579
I dont agree with killing nationalists no. But if they were operating without uniforms and their families were assisting them then their families are assisting illegal guerillas, no?

>>17948328
In a just world America would have acted on behalf of its own people.
>America
No, White people.
White people show mercy. White people show clemency. When Whites hold trials they never have Nuremberg tier corruption.
Judge a tree by its fruits.
America today punishes the core American people on behalf of slaves and foreigners.
America would not exist without White people. What the pretenders in the American State Dept do to Americans and Whites in general is undeniable proof we live in a fallen world ruled by the devil.

When WHITES ran everything we spared the Amerindian. Gave them special rights over Whites because we felt bad for defeating them.
Whites have charity for other races. Whites have clemency and mercy in their hearts.
True Liberals are a White phenomenon.

Nuremberg was jewish. In a just world we’d have dropped those atomic bombs on Moscow and Haifa.

>>17949592
but they were killing as hostages, killed for other people's crime, do you understand?

>>17949579
>>17949592
He’s got you there. We know for a fact vast numbers of uninformed fighters of all ages and both genders partook in the war.

>>17949596
Oh I understand. But if they were using the villages to resupply the village is now complicit in helping guerillas

>>17949596
>killing hostages
Is there any hard evidence of this? Evidence that would hold up in an American court today?
Written statements aren’t evidence.
Eye witnesses are not evidence.
Actual hard evidence to convict of murder?
No. There’s the problem.

>>17949597
but germans didn't kill them for that, they were killed as hostages for other people's crime
>>17949599
they didn't wanted to cut partistans supply or at least didn't stay that, that was a collective death punishement on hostages for other partisants

>>17949601
>is there an evidence
>other than the normal evidence
sad thing is that i can't even tell if you are trolling

>>17949603
In the US during the civil war if you were a farmer and had your crops/cattle requisitioned by the Confederacy you could basically be summarily executed even if you were forced

>>17949609
Also I'm pretty sure Germans lied about how many people they executed for propaganda purposes

>>17947731 (OP)
The just following orders excuse proves you are an npc and deserve to be executed. Sorry, that you found not being evil too inconvenient.

>>17947731 (OP)
so what if you're conscripted against your will, forced to commit war crimes by a general, and if refused, you are threatened with torture? you refuse at first, experiencing torture of such great distress, but you give. are you still subject to being charge of war crimrd?

>>17950249
Yes. Just don't be a weak, lil bro.

>>17949838
I agree but isn’t that a little uncharitable to Churchill and Tommy?

>>17949606
>the normal evidence
Do you understand what jurisprudence is?
I am asking for evidence that would convict in an American court TODAY.
You are defending a sham trial because if it was exposed for the fraud it is the Nazis would be re-evaluated and these people who most likely are the antithesis of everything you are might get a fair shake from the court of public opinion and you can’t have that because a spiteful mutant.

>>17950780
holy incoherent melty

Nuremberg wasn't a trial though, it was a clown show meant to send political enemies to their deaths while masking it as legitimate to retarded braindead npc normies because the word 'trial' was used.
>The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence ... and shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value

>>17947731 (OP)
because they outlawed that defense

>>17950954
dance germie, dance