Thread 17953334

Would the Pacific War have happened regardless of what was going on in Europe.

>>17953334 (OP)
Yes , japan invaded china already in 1937

>>17953341
It's sort of hard to imagine Japan attacking the Dutch, British, and Americans at the same time if two of them weren't already occupied(literally and figuratively).

>>17953334 (OP)
Japan was happy to trade for the oil and rubber its growing empire needed.

The war would never have occured without the sanctions.

>>17953334 (OP)
Japan's war of conquest in Asia began well before Germany's war in Europe, but they avoided attacking European holdings in the Pacific until 1940, by which point Europe was preoccupied with Germany, and Japan had formed an alliance with the Nazis giving them the confidence to aggressively expand through southeast Asia, and eventually attack the United States.

Without German aggression in Europe, and no alliance with Germany, Japan likely would've been a lot more conservative in who it attacked, because Europeans would've been able to divert more resources to fighting them.

I think they still would've moved into southeast Asia, because the US and other countries would still have embargoed Japan for its conquests in mainland Asia, resulting in an energy crisis for Japan, and the only way they could really resolve this would be invading Indonesia and taking control of its vast energy reserves.

>>17953349
>The war would never have occured without the sanctions.
The sanctions happened because the war.

>>17953341
How does a war between Japan and China have to do with the US?

>>17953996
China was a valuable market for US trade, and many European countries had interests there as well. Not to mention Britain, who extensively operated out of many large Chinese cities and outright owned the island of Hong Kong.

Basically, Japan was causing chaos in a region that the west was trying to exploit economically, and so they punished Japan with reciprocal economic sanctions.

>>17953363
> Japan's war of conquest in Asia began well before Germany's war in Europe
Japan was liberating Asia, not waging a war of conquest. The wars in Europe and Asia were completely different.
> they avoided attacking European holdings in the Pacific until 1940
Japan only sent troops into French Indochina in order to gain a strategic advantage in the Second Sino-Japanese War. Japan had no intention of going to war against the Anglo-American powers.
> Japan had formed an alliance with the Nazis giving them the confidence to aggressively expand through southeast Asia
Japan entered the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy as a defensive measure against US aggression. America had was putting economic sanctions onto Japan and militarily aiding the Chiang Kai Shek regime. Japan believed that by forming an alliance with Germany and Italy it would deter US aggression and strengthen their position in US-Japan negotiations. Basically, Japan joined the Tripartite Pact to try and avoid war with the US. And again, Japan only sent troops into French Indochina. That’s hardly “aggressively expanding through SEA.”
> eventually attack the United States.
The US forced the war with its economic sanctions, aiding of the Chiang Kai Shek regime and the Hull Note ultimatum which made war inevitable. Japan didn’t want war with America (they were already fighting China after all), war with America is something they were forced into. Also it’s worth noting that the US was attacking the Japanese military with the Flying Tigers months before the Pearl Harbor attack.

>>17953363
> the US and other countries would still have embargoed Japan for its conquests in mainland Asia
The US and it’s allies embargoed Japan because:
1. FDR wanted to drag America into WW2 and the only way he could do this was through provoking Japan into war.
2. The Anglo-American powers feared that the rise of Japan as a major Imperial power would bring an end to western colonial dominance in SEA.
3. FDR was close to both the Soviets and KMT, both of whom were enemies of Japan.
It had nothing to do with Japan’s war in China.

>>17953990
The sanctions came before the war.

Yes, the Japanese would have struck and expanded into Manchuria no matter what.

>>17953334 (OP)
Had there not been a European war, Japan would have been slapped down by a small Bong-Frog expeditionary force in China, Japan was a massive paper tiger when it came to its ground armed forces.

>>17954006
China didn't even exist as a country at the time

>>17953996
The US had realigned with Britain after the Great Rapproachment in 1915 and the US wanted the British Empire to exist to farm payments from WWI over.
The US ended up just taking over the British Empire anyway.
The US had turned against Japan which was pushing out The Europeans, the British specifically, and was friendly to the US but did not owe the US a debt.
The Japanese were also arresting and seizing the assets of the British East India Company which had lobbyists in the US advocating for sanctions against Japan.

>>17953349
>The war never would have occurred if they just let Japan take over East Asia and genocide China with no consequences

>>17954866
*surrenders Singapore*

>>17954999
>The United States didn't exist in the early 1860s
>England didn't exist in the 1640s
etc

Teddy felt it was inevitable.

>>17954059
no they fame during the other war.

>>17955410
*came

>>17954692
The Manchuria incident didn’t cause the Pacific War.

>>17954866
>Japan was a massive paper tiger when it came to its ground armed forces.
They btfo’d the Americans, British and Dutch within the first few months of the war despite being outnumbered.

>>17954999
There was the Republic of China, although it didn’t control all the territory we now consider to be “China.”

>>17955581
>within the first few months of the war
Yes, because they were on the offensive, and Western Allies hadn't mustered defense in the region yet.

>>17955008
>The US had turned against Japan which was pushing out The Europeans
How was Japan pushing the Europeans out of Asia? This only happened during the war, not before it.

>>17955020
>just let Japan take over East Asia
Being at war with China isn’t “taking over East Asia.”
>genocide China
CCP propaganda.

>>17955410
what other war?

>>17955590
I am not falling for your rageb8 today sir

>>17955585
>Western Allies hadn't mustered defense in the region yet.
Singapore was considered to be a fortress. The western colonial powers had controlled SEA decades. Saying that the Allied powers hadn’t mustered defence in the region is cope.

>>17955594
Not rage bait, it’s the truth.

>>17955595
>Saying that the Allied powers hadn’t mustered defence in the region is cope.
Call it whatever you want but the fact of the matter is that we're talking about globe spanning empires thousands of miles away from their respective capitals in what Japan believed was their own backyard, no matter how you try and spin this, it's clear Japan was fighting an uphill battle since day one despite some early success catching colonial powers off guard.,

>>17955598
>You: "Japan wasn't trying to build a trans-pacific empire and saw no strategic advantage in controlling costal China"
see
>>17955594

>>17954041
>executes asian POW's
>sells asian women into sex slavery
>burns down asian cities
>sends millions of asians to forced labour camps
>sends food from other asian countries to Japan, causing famine in the other countries
WE WUZ LIBERATING DESU

>>17954999
Fact.
>>17955028
False

>>17955931
It's crazy how Japan independently developed fascism at the same time as it was being developed in Europe. It's as if chuds around the world all decided to chud out in the same way.

>>17956904
Japan was doing old fashioned eastern Imperialism, unlike the krauts who were defying hundreds of years of civilized western conduct, Japan and their enemies in Asia saw it as the norm and all did the same to the Jap settlers and POW's the first chance they got. Even Soviet soldiers hungry for blood blushed at what the Chinese were doing in Manchuria to collaborators and settlers.

>>17955601
He's gonna seethe at what every non-sneak offensive looked like for Japan, even the bongs began thrashing them with Indian troops when they started to actually arm them

>>17955605
> >You: "Japan wasn't trying to build a trans-pacific empire and saw no strategic advantage in controlling costal China"
When did I say this?

>>17956904
Imperialist Japan was NEVER Fascist. Fascism requires actually leveraging industry to consolidate power to some kind of ideological ideal. The Nazis were Fascist, the Italians were Fascist (although their respective interpretation of fascism differ considerably), but Japan was not fascist, they were simply an Imperialist Monarchy that was attempting to emulate 19th Century Europe but they were a century too late.

>>17955931
> >executes asian POW's
Only those found guilty by a tribunal of being criminals, or enemies disguised as civilians who weren’t protected by international conventions.
> >sells asian women into sex slavery
Comfort women were paid prostitutes, not sex slaves. There are documents that prove this.
> >burns down asian cities
Such as? Be more specific.
> >sends millions of asians to forced labour camps
Only POW’s.
> >sends food from other asian countries to Japan, causing famine in the other countries
A result of the Allies starving Japan by deliberately targeting non-military ships (which is a war crime).
> WE WUZ LIBERATING DESU
Yes, SEA countries owe their freedom today to Japan.

>>17956904
Japan was never Fascist.

>>17956924
Japan was the most moral country during the war.

>>17956957
> The Nazis were Fascist
The Nazis were Socialists (National Socialist German Workers Party) and were closer to Communism than Fascism (leftists will try and deny this but it’s true).

>>17953334 (OP)
Yes. Protestant Extremists are very present on all levels of government and they were pissed that the Japanese were killing those chinks before Jesus could claim their immortal souls.

>>17953334 (OP)
No

>>17953341
>Yes , japan invaded china already in 1937
And the West did nothing and intended to do nothing aside from token support to KMT. Everyone knew Japan would get bogged down and fail. What precipitated the Pacific War was Japan's seizure of Indochina and attacks on Western colonies.

>>17955592
Chinese posters on /his/ shill the idea that the US imposed sanctions on Japan because of the China war.

>>17956989
The west was leveeing sanctions immediately, crippling the jap war effort to the point it couldnt conduct any more offensives against the Chinese, that's nothing?lmao if the Japs were confident in being able to win, they wouldnt have gambled on attacking the west, but they knew at the time that if they didn't, the Chinese would eventually win on their own

>>17956978
>The Nazis were Socialists (National Socialist German Workers Party)
Correct, and they were also Fascist. You just don't understand what fascism actually is
>and were closer to Communism than Fascism
Well you're wrong for multiple reasons, but the whole "leveraging industry" thing is partially why fascism and communism superficially resemble eachother, but for Fascists it's more like "Real Monarchy hasn't been tried" while for Communists it was more like "Real Liberalism hasn't been tried"

>>17956997
>but for Fascists it's more like "Real Monarchy hasn't been tried" while for Communists it was more like "Real Liberalism hasn't been tried"
Damn you're retarded, both are, "Real Socialism hasn't been tried", and that's the most apt way to put their respective end goals.

>>17956996
>The west was leveeing sanctions immediately,
There were no sanctions until 1940, when the US placed a scrap metals embargo in response to Japan signing the Tripartite Pact and the oil embargo in 1941 in response to Japan taking Indochina.

>>17957003
>The west

>>17954055
>>17954041
>>17956992
>>17956996
The US sanctioned Japan after Japan invaded French Indochina in 1940 retards.

The US believed Japan's invasion of French Indochina meant Japan activated its plan to conquer all of SEA including the US held Philippines

Japan was also defeated by China at Kunlun pass in 1940 when it tried to cut off China's border with French Indochina from the Chinese side

So they invaded the French side.

The US is the one that supported Japan taking over Taiwan and Korea.

US army officers in the Hokkaido colonisation office helped Japan attacked Paiwan Aboriginals in Taiwan in 1874 and scouted land for Japanese settlements

US signed the Taft Katsuura agreement with Japan agreeing with Japan to take over Korea as a protectorate in 1905 while Japan would recognise US control in the Philippines

American Jews like Jacob Schiff gave emergency loans to Japan against Russia in 1904-1905

>>17957000
Hardly. Hitler had the Socialist faction of the Nazi Party killed off in the Long Knives Massacre, leaving just the Nationalist faction, and the whole "Socialist" part of the Nazi Party just became an orphaned term by the mid 1930s

>>17957011
You don't understand Fascism and it shows.

>>17957013
>You: "Communists and Fascists are le same actually"
Everyone laugh at this retard

>>17957019
No one said that, if they were they wouldn't have different names now would they? lol But they are both Socialist and left wing