Thread 17953584

Why were Indo-European religions so epic, while Abrahamic religions feel kind of dull in comparison?

>>17953584 (OP)
Because all Abrahamic religions stem from Judaism which makes them just as retarded as Judaism

I really hate how all this mythological diversity got squished for the most cookie cutter mythology imaginable

>>17953584 (OP)
Abrahamic religion literally has this trope
>On that day the Lord with his cruel and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.

>Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pitanda great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is thedevilandSatan,andbound him for a thousand yearsandthrew him into the pitandlockedandsealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended.

reminds me of this

>>17953610
>turns out all religions are connected

>>17953584 (OP)
>Baal vs Yam
>YHWH vs Leviathan
>Marduk vs Tiamat
>Ra vs Apep
IE-sissies... are we FRAUDS? Why did we copy Middle Eastern myths???

>>17953615
It's the other way around. All those descend from ANE myths.
YHWH vs Leviathan itself is very late anyway. Russell Gmirkin has shown that the writers of the Hebrew Bible were just copying Hellenistic culture.

The Levant received ANE haplogroups. It also received ANE autosomal from the Caucasus and Iran. There was a distinct flow of genes and culture which can only be properly explained as going from north to south.

Only Pajeets say "Abrahamic." Nice try, Ranjeesh.

>>17953694
>Only Pajeets say "Abrahamic."
This is simply a lie

>>17953584 (OP)
Retarded, you've already created this bait thread again.
And we have a magical entity that casts magic rays at a magical creature in various mythologies, from Japan to Sumerian. Were they IE? It seems like a disease.
>>17953684
Stop this bullshit based solely on vague similarities with some Amerindians and Europeans, you idiot.
We don't know how the "ANE" mythology works, and each Amerindian belief was so different from one another that there wasn't even an "Amerindian religion."
>>17953684
It turns out your shitty source doesn't mention that this story was present in Egypt and the Middle East before Christian contact with Hellenism, insetc, you have two possibilities:
1. Either the Europeans copied their religion from the Semites.
2. Or assume that this story of a deity defeating an evil serpent is more common than you might think and isn't limited to a specific people.

>>17953615
The "PIE" mythology is a fraud because it is based on generic precepts like the one the OP is spamming, which is found outside the so-called "PIE religion", the same with the supposed "PIE social division", which is so common everywhere, that without irony, it even exists among the Canaanites. A "father god" is not unique, a founding myth of a warrior character is also not restricted to the "PIE", if the names of the gods and their characteristics were the same, we could even think, but they are not.

>>17953589
the Romans already did that before the Christian era in fact they imposed a uniform culture and the Roman state gods across the empire. arguably the move towards uniform world religions was inevitable as the Western world got more interconnected.

>>17953732
Correct, the Gaulish "sky father" is so different from the Greco-Roman ones that he actually held characteristics of death, like Hades, he was a deity more related to the underworld than anything else.

There is no "PIE mythology" or "variations" of this mythology, and the parallels are too vague.
Imagine being so dumb, lol.

and do you know the deyeus pater that they masturbate? the name is etymologically related, without irony, to a global baby babble hahahahaha

>>17953737
there is an idiot on /his/ who mentions, without irony, that the Eskimo and IE languages are related via "ANE"

>>17953737
it doesn't matter whether gaulish sky father has many differences to the other pantheons since they are still part of the same language family therfore we can assume a shared original indo european mythology too.

>>17953746
it matters, because if they don't have the slightest similarity, they are not archetypes. Thanks for the concession
>still part of the same language family
which does not necessarily imply anything, and in this context of mythology, it is useless. There is the Utho-Aztec family, and the mythologies are strangely different.
>we can assume a shared original indo european mythology too
No, words that can be traced back to a root? Yes. Mythology? No. You said that yourself, OP, seriously, you're not fooling anyone.

>>17953746
>>17953737
Even Worse, I literally have several PDFs of Celtic mythology, whether Irish or Gaulish mainly, and in Ireland at least, there isn't even an etymologically related deyeus pater, and what's more is a deity who is "the father of the other gods," but that's all the similarities. Basically, Africans, Semites, Amerindians, and Asians had their main "father god."
And even with Scottish mythology, with the little we have, there's no father in heaven.

>>17953760
>Basically, Africans, Semites, Amerindians, and Asians had their main "father god."
You know, it's not like it's enough to postulate that they were necessarily related, because it's a very basic and abstract pagan concept, so this father figure in Ireland can't even be related, because it's very different etymologically it's more similar to Hermes than anything else

>>17953725
>you have two possibilities:
>1. Either the Europeans copied their religion from the Semites.
>2. Or assume that this story of a deity defeating an evil serpent is more common than you might think and isn't limited to a specific people.
Characterizing the only two choices this way is just a display of ignorance.
It's a fact that the Levant experienced gene flow from the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Iran. Here's that famous study you've probably seen before:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180820104204.htm
Not an Indo-European migration though of course.

If you check ancient Egyptian samples for admixture you'll find ANE admix along with Iran and Caucasus.

>>17953725
Sumerians aren't even Semites so we reject your false dichotomy completely.


Indo-Europeans travelled all over the world and spread their myths anyway, other races didn't really.

>>17953778
There's literally also a steppe signal in the Levant and Egypt. It's younger than the ANE signal though so the chronological dependencies for culture transfer are different

>>17953778
>post an irrelevant study on the outdated topic
Retard, what do you mean by that? Who talked about blue eyes? And how and why are they relevant?
>Characterizing the only two choices this way is just a display of ignorance
You are the height of ignorance and do not deserve the slightest consideration, as it is not possible to maintain a serious dialogue beyond false information, you were the idiot who used Russell Gmirkin, not me.
>It's a fact that the Levant experienced gene flow from the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Iran
Irrelevant, one thing doesn't connect to the other in any way, but since your thread is garbage, and this is your best argument, the peoples of the Middle East and North Africa are half basal Eurasians. They are geographically West Eurasians, but genetically, only half that. In the case of the peoples of the Middle East and North Africa, CHG is half proto-WHG and half ANE.
It is not Oriental, being clearly distinct from the Arabs, Iranians, Levantines, and, in general, the MENA, of Natufian origin.

>>17953786
They could have been the ones who fuck your mother, it doesn't matter, the point is;
unfortunately for you, they are *NOT* parallel. Disgust and cry or prove otherwise.
>>17953790
There is no adjacent ancestry in Egypt, and even if there is, their culture, language are not IEs, your retarded attempt to use basal populations as evidence of mythology connection is weak. Try again
that r1b comes from a fake source, leaked samples with "bell beakers" ancestry do not exceed 10% etc etc

>>17953786
>Indo-Europeans travelled all over the world and spread their myths anyway, other races didn't really.
not in Japan, not in Mesopotamia, not in the Americas, not in the interior of China and not in Egypt, otherwise show us the archaeological, genetic or linguistic evidence.

>>17953778
>If you check ancient Egyptian samples for admixture you'll find ANE admix along with Iran and Caucasus.
Your stupidity is in tune with your knowledge, that is, 0%
Imbec, there's no way they had "ANE" and at the same time CHG, that the latter was already a mulatto population half ANE and half some Western phantom population, unless you lie and say that Tarim migrated to Egypt? And where is this ANE in the Egyptians? ANE is irrelevant because no one is a direct descendant.

>>17953802
he posted a trash from 2018
>>17953786
Monkey, by your logic, Semitic bulls taught the IE sisters because PS has 5000~4500 BC and PIe according to Lazaridis at most 3200 BC eae? Why these similarities if PIE didn't even exist when PS was around? KYS semeflag lunatic

Save for Castor and Pollux there really aren't that many Indo-European aspects of Greek myth, or atleast nothing that I have found convincing.

Not even their Sky Daddy was Indo-European, IE sisters?¿

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_mythology_and_religion

>>17953802
>>17953810
For most of prehistory the Levant has just been a sink for gene and culture flow from the north. People would go in but they didn't go back north because of mountain barriers. You cannot sit here and tell me a myth that was clearly present on the steppe because of its distribution came from the south when south to north is not the general trend for the flow of people.

The Levant and Egypt are just extensions of West Eurasia with SSA admix. Their cultural origins are from the north. Their languages are ultimately from the north. That's why so many linguists are obsessed with the connections they see. The Levant didn't get to impose much culture on Europe until Phoenician traders interacted with the Mediterranean. The steppes were out of reach for them. You are only looking at absurdly ancient mythology that is far older than Indo-Europeans and you are coping if you don't believe the Levant and Egypt received significant cultural input from the Caucasus, Anatolian, and Iran.

>>17953812
>not in Japan,
Japan was heavily influenced by the continent earlier in its history, in turn influenced by Steppe tribes like Xiongnu etc. spreading there. [1, 2]
>not in Mesopotami
Plently of evidence for earlier gene flow (already posted by another Anon ITT) and literally Iran: the land of the Aryans, spread from European CWC --> Sintisha influenced it. [3]
>not in the Americas,
Leif Erikson's expidition, centuries before historical record began there. [4]
> not in the interior of China
Xiongnu [1-2] --> Han --> Lesser Chinese peoples
>and not in Egypt, otherwise
The oldest Pharaoh DNA we have is all Aryan. [5]
> show us the archaeological, genetic or linguistic evidence.
Reciepts:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Genetics
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Huns#Archaeological_evidence
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture#Genetics
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Egypt#2020_study_of_Tutankhamun_and_other_mummies_of_the_18th_Dynasty

>>17953834
>For most of prehistory the Levant has just been a sink for gene and culture flow from the north.
The premise is already wrong, so the rest of the argument is necessarily false.
You tried and tried and couldn't prove anything, you lost
Since we're talking about the "Levant," unlike your garbage 2018 study, there is genetic continuity in the Levant, evidenced by studies:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420304876
or
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929717302768
Both shows continuity, even pos-BA

>>17953834
>The Levant and Egypt are just extensions of West Eurasia with SSA admix.
Exactly this.

>>17953840
"Continuity" does not imply purity. Picrel Ancient Levantines had 0% SSA admix and only a very small % of Aryan admix, but then over the course of the Islamic slave trade they got mutted and brown by SSA admix which you find 0-10% in modern Levantines.

While you can show autosomal continuity you can also show introgression, in particular black introgression which introduced many genes not previously found in basal Western Eurasian, leading to the modern dysgenic low IQ MENA populations.


Between rapes by Greco-Romans, Arabs, Mongols, Turks, Timur, Horn of Africa reverse rape etc. the only thing that's for damn sure is that none of these people look like fucking Natufians.

>>17953837
>Xiongnu
were not Indo-European, as evidenced by genetics and linguistics, the same with Turks and Mongols
Xiongnu = ~75% Proto-Turkic Peoples (Slab Grave Culture) + ~25% Siberian Saka (Chandman Culture)
refuted
>Mesopotamia
>Sintashta
Your links proved absolutely nothing. There are no samples with Sintashta ancestry in Mesopotamia or IE instructions in these regions that could teach anything. By the way, it's cool that you mentioned the Iranians... which ones exactly? The last study of the Persians showed literally less than 20% Steppe_MLBA LOL
Refuted, nonsense. No mythological evidence.
>Leif Erikson's
retard, tell me... do you really think he traveled to Mesoamerica? LOL LOL
comically refuted lol
>Xiongnu
>again
See above
>The oldest Pharaoh DNA we have is all Aryan.
No, it doesn't
What do you prove with exactly one paternal language around several others? It's not like r1b was common to begin with, and we have the Egyptian genome, they didn't have steppe haplogroups that don't even represent 10% of the base genome. Good try, but refuted.

>>17953849
>purity
amateur term, you assume that there was continuity, therefore, there is no continuity, there was no influx or genetic overlap whatsoever, much less from the "north", concession accepted, as proved by studies>>17953840
>suggesting that the destruction at the end of the Bronze Age in the region did not necessarily lead to genetic discontinuity in each and every site. Notably, both Abel Beth Maacah and Megiddo are inland cities, and their genetic continuity throughout the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age might not be representative of other sites in the region
>The overlap between the Bronze Age and present-day Levantines suggests a degree of genetic continuity in the region

>These results support population continuity in the region and suggest that several present-day genetic disorders might stem from risk alleles that were already present in the Bronze Age population.

>Our results support genetic continuity since the Bronze Age and thus our large dataset of present-day Lebanese provided an opportunity to explore the admixture time using admixture-induced linkage disequilibrium (LD) decay

BTFO'd

>>17953849
your photo proved that this anon is correct you retard there was no overlap and there is no northern ancestry or any nonsense like that

>>17953849
>only a very small % of Aryan admix
Wrong

>>17953610
don't post low res

>>17953889
>>17953872
OP obliterated

>>17953584 (OP)
>why I like this and I don't like that?
Are you mentally retarded?

>>17953840
>there is genetic continuity in the Levant
When? In what sense does that claim make sense?
More importantly, how does claiming continuity help you when they have significant West Eurasian gene input? They are continuous with their West Eurasian ancestry from the north?
Continuity is a fable anyway. There were migrations of people from the Caucasus, Anatolian, and Iran.

I'll post a few pictures. I bet you didn't even know there was a steppe signal in the Levant. The earlier gene flow from the Caucasus and Iran implies ANE admixture too. Caucasus and Iran admix hides ANE.

>>17953964
Any time you see Iran/Caucasus admix in the Levant and Egypt that's carrying along ANE admix with it. A model where the myth is carried from north to south is totally plausible.

You may not like it but this is the result of ANE gene flow.
>But it's just a haplogroup!
That's all it takes for cultural transmission.

This is all very mainstream and well known stuff. You'd have to be a crank to think there's zero chance ANE culture reached the Levant.

>>17954015
Here's what seals the deal for me:
The Native American Thunderbird vs. Horned/Water-Serpent myths have parallels with the Indo-European myths.

You cannot explain this phenomenon by appealing to Levantines influencing Indo-Europeans or anything like that. A distribution that includes North America and the Pontic-Caspian steppe necessarily entails the involvement of ANEs.

More gods = more fun, I guess
Also Abrahamic religions valued peace, where Celtic and Norse religions were all about chaos.

>>17953584 (OP)
Because you worship Satan

>>17953584 (OP)
Revelations is more epic and awe-inspiring than any indoeuropean myth

>>17953584 (OP)
Familiarity breeds contempt.
YHWH slayed Leviathan too, plus he nuked a city and will fight a cosmic battle against fallen angels. You see Christianity differently because it's common to you and most your interactions with it are rather boring, as is the case for every common thing in your environment. If you lived in a hellenic pagan society you'd also consider the cults' daily lives to be mundane as hell and you'd take interest in who is this dude who supposedly died on a cross and then came back three days later, defeating death itself?

>>17954766
Christians have always had a tendency to be hostile to the more mythological-flavored aspects of their religion, such as God fighting Leviathan, the Watchers, etc. This is a tendency they inherited from the Jews and later Greek pagans, who were also distancing themselves from that stuff because they saw it as backwards and embarrassing.

>>17953584 (OP)
Because most ancient Indo-European cultures viewed life as a struggle and framed it vibrantly within their mythology. Jews viewed life as essentially one big shit test set by an all-powerful and jealous god and thus their mythology is just an extended series of nonsensical shit tests. Christianity and Islam add a little more drama to the mix but still can't cover up that every chapter in their holy books is just one more way of saying "bow down to god" and it quickly grows stale.

>>17953584 (OP)
Eh? Abrahamics have the most over the top fights and entities, from the evangelion angels to Yahweh (cosmic order) soloing Leviathan (primordial chaos).
He basically goes "the universe exists because I say so".

>>17954937
Yahweh wins effortlessly every time, it's a total snoozefest. The only people who are remotely entertained are Christian spergs who get a surge of second-hand validation from feeling like they've got the biggest bully in the universe in their corner.

>>17953684
There are no ANE myths and Native Americans don't show any parallels to the Middle Eastern source of IE religion.

>>17953691
Iran is to the east of Anatolia and the Levant, not north. Not to mention Caucasus and Iran are some of the places where ANE got cucked.

>>17955044
>There are no ANE myths
Retard take

>Middle Eastern source of IE religion
Down syndrome take

>Iran is to the east
Thanks for the geography lesson but if you read again I didn't say anything about the location of Iran. ANEs came from the north. Iran and the Caucasus received ANE gene flow. Don't act like the transmission of ANE culture is absurd.

Briefly, in North America there is a Thunderbird vs. Horned/Water-Serpent motif which parallels IE myths:
>Upper-world being who controls storms/lightning (Thunderbird in N.A.; Indra/Perkʷunos/Thor in IE).
>A large serpentine/dragon being associated with water, chaos, hoarding or blocking rivers/wells (Horned Serpent / Mishipeshu / Uktena in N.A.; Vṛtrá, Typhon, Illuyanka, etc. in IE).
>A conflict in which the thunder/sky figure defeats the serpent, often releasing or protecting waters, restoring fertility/order, or guarding human communities.

The premise of ANE culture reaching the Levant is definitely a possibility. Just look: >>17954015
Technically we can't even rule out that this was a much later transmission of culture from IEs to the Levant because there is steppe cline involving the Levant, Iran, and Egypt so chronologically there's more than one option. And yes the steppe admixture can be very low but for all we know there is an unsampled population which is the source of the steppe admix. There isn't much certainty when the number of samples is so low.

Hail Odin.

The US is acting out IE myth.

Which ones? Proto indo europeans and their decendents created zorostranism and Buddhism and Norse paganism. Maybe greek and roman pantheon too.

Paganism: Chad God man kills snake
Christianity: Snake tempts humans so god curses them forever

Comparitive mythology falls apart when you try to compare actual gods. Beyond the most basic aspects, you get too much interference.
Just look at how the the Roman pantheon changed from the early republican period to the later empire.
Look at religious institutions instead:
> kingship as a religious position
> lack of any dedicated priesthood outside of the king
> *koryos, an armed body of young free men associated with wolves or the "dogs of war"
> sacrifice as a religious rite
> kurgan burial mound and grave goods
None of these things are uniquely IE on their own, but taken together they are. They're also much more resistant to change over time than the gods themselves.