Thread 17965680

The Münster Anabaptist Dominion, whatever happened there.

>>17965680 (OP)
proto-Waco

>>17965680 (OP)
What's with the sudden surge in references to The Sopranos? Has the algorithm decided that the flavor of the month to show on YouTube with sheeee knoooooows sheeeee knooowwwwws dubbed over it?

THAT'S RIGHT COCKSUCKA! GO BACK TO HOLLAND!

Literally the logical end point of Protestantism.

>>17966047
Literal Martin Luther denounced it

>>17965680 (OP)
Great Hardcore History episode. Pure Carlin audiokino.

>>17966061
It's like Darth Vader having a boxing match with Spiderman indeed.

>>17966103
"It is hard to relate to people who lived hundreds of years ago, who worked the fields all day, went barefoot to the market in the city once a month and religion is not just something you debate on reddit.
The best way to connect to history is through universal human experiences. So imagine... the smell."

>>17965707
if those are the same cages from 500 years ago why aren't they rusted to shit?

>>17966119
they fell down in 1944/1945 (no reason) and were restored

>>17966136
>no reason
there was a reason, it was a sign that Nazi Germany had lost the mandate of heaven

>>17966140
>mandate of heaven
interesting way to refer to air superiority

>>17966052
fake friends

>>17965680 (OP)
Many people probably don't realise how ununified the protestant cause was in the HRE. There were broadly speaking two teams: the Lutherans (and later on Calvinists) and the Reformed (Ana-/baptists, earlier on the Calvinists). In the Confessio Augustana of 1530 "lutherans", lead by Melanchthon, tried to ingratiate themselves with the imperial authority in order to gain legitimacy. Simultaneously they distanced themselves from the more radical reformed protestants. With the Peace of Augsburg in 1555 only recognized the lutherans (later the calvinists as well) and thus protected them from persecution. And this protection wasn't expanded towards the reformed protestants.
>whatever happened there.
In the 1520s the patricians, craftsmen's guilds and catholic catholic clergy vied for influence over the city of Münster, which was the seat of the Bishop of Münster who in turn was a prince-bishop. The guilds converted to baptism and Bernd Rothmann, a famous anabaptist preacher, often frequented the city. Despite being forbidden from entering the city and preaching therein, many of the bourgeois of Münster were friendly towards the anabaptists and covered him. By the early 1530s the anabaptists were in most ruling positions of the city and entrenchend themselves, exploiting the fact that the position of the bishop changed three times in a short series of time. The third bishop, Franz von Waldeck (himself being sympathetic to the protestant cause and later trying to transform his prince-bishopship into a secular, thus hereditary protestant state) acted against the Münster Anabaptists by prohibiting trade with the city and confiscating their livestock. In turn they took hostages and Waldeck was forced to a compromise: the anabaptists were allowed to stay in the city but all churches therein were to remain catholic.
1/2
Pic rel: the siege of Münster depicted by Erhard Schön
>>17966712
See above. Lutherans and Anabaptists didn't mix well.

By 1534 the anabaptists radicalised and soon after catholics and lutherans were expelled from the city. Two more anabaptist preachers Jan Matthys and Jan van Leiden travelled to the city and prohibited infant-baptisms within the city. Iconoclasms destroyed much ecclesiastical art and based on the "Early Christian Community of Goods" private property was prohibited and collective ownership instated. Additionally this whole development was heavily influenced by apocalyptic notions of the supposedly nearing Judgement Day. This gave Bishop Waldeck more than enough political ammunition to act with militaty force against Münster .In the same year he and his allies (amongst them the lutheran prince of Hesse) laid siege to the city. Come easter 1534 Matthys claimed that Jesus would visit the city and travelled unarmed to the besieging army - where he was immediately killed by the Landsknechte. Jan van Leiden now took over the ruling position in the city and further radicalised the anabaptists. Execution and violent surpression against critics followed. The siege continued and the impressive fortifications of the city held firm. But in the night of june of 1535 two defector let the forces of the bishop and his allies into the city. A bloodbath followed and Münster was taken. Summary executions took place against all less important anabaptists. Van Leiden and his cronies were severely tortured and interrogated for two yeary. In 1537 van Leiden was tortured to death - with hot red iron tongs their bodies were ripped apart and their remains put on display in iron cages which hang from the St. Lamberti church.
(2/2)
Pic rel: the individual sheet of the fortifications of Münster

>>17966978
>>17966983

There had also been some proto-Anabaptist work done in the Peasant Wars in Germany. Pic related is a pretty good recent book on him, it also goes in detail on his theology, one that would later be expanded on by Rothmann

>>17967114
Yeah, it's really interesting how the emerging new religious ideas merged and repelled with each other.The Twelve Articles are another good example: independently from any explicitly stated reformed influence it advicated for the reinsatement of the commons andthe abolition of the small tithe on grounds of the bible.

Bernhard Knipperdolling and other schizo fucks convince a bunch of Mennonites that polygamy is OK.

>>17966978
Interesting.
What's the largest piece of land the Annababtists ever got a hold of? And umm, what's thier ethnick background?

>>17966978
>Many people probably don't realise how ununified the protestant cause was
I think everyone is aware of that, considering there's 700 million different Prot sects today

>>17968300
Area wise it would be the Netherlands, parts of the upper and lower Rhine and Switzerland. But nowhere did they have lasting success and were persecuted wholesale. They still exist today if course but aren't the majority - the amish and mennomites hail from the same lineage as well.
>>17968362
Whenever I see discussions on the reformation here in 4Chan it is often depicted as Team Luther vs Team Catholic Church, with both sides being reduced to monoliths.

>>17965680 (OP)
Christian ISIS.

>>17966978
Conflating the Anabaptists and Reformed is completely inappropriate because of the enormous theological differences between them, most relevant to this thread being the former's anti-government (then violent) millenarianism vs. the latter's two kingdom theology. Given that by this point the Anabaptists practically to a man openly rejected every principle of the Reformation and decried Luther and Zwingli as just as false as Rome, and on the other side the reformers were increasingly defensive of infant baptism and the just authority of the state, it is not even meaningful to include the Anabaptists in the category of Protestant, since the only thing they really have in common is being western Christians opposed to the church of Rome in the 16th century.

Your account in portraying the Reformed as 'radical' also ignores the Tetrapolitan Confession (they were doing the exact same thing as the Lutherans at Augsburg) or the 1540 Augsburg Confession variata which was a deliberate attempt by Melancthon to accommodate Reformed doctrine (through which the Reformed informally enjoyed the peace of Augsburg from the beginning).

>>17968632
>Whenever I see discussions on the reformation here in 4Chan it is often depicted as Team Luther vs Team Catholic Church, with both sides being reduced to monoliths.
The papists would love to continue pretending they are a monolith, they just want to pretend there's 700 bajillion Protestant denominations too.

>>17968632
>Whenever I see discussions on the reformation here in 4Chan it is often depicted as Team Luther vs Team Catholic Church, with both sides being reduced to monoliths.
lol no it's amusing seeing prots forced to team up with the catholic church to take down fellow prots

funny how this “weird sect” that was forcibly murdered out of existence centuries ago became the de facto baseline christian community in the USA

>>17969250
United Statians are weirdo freaks.

>>17969250
>>17969268
In whose schizoid head canon do anabaptists make up a significant portion of American protestants?

>>17968300
>What's the largest piece of land the Annababtists ever got a hold of?
I guess the Swabian territories Müntzers and Geyers boys got ahold of during the German Peasants War, although it would be more accurate to call them proto-Anabaptists.
>And umm, what's thier ethnick background?
Dutch and German.

>>17969283
Baptists think Anabaptists wuz them

>>17969323
I've attended Baptist churches many many times and was part of a Baptist congregation. No one ever expressed any notion of kinship with the Amish lol.

>>17969337
you think americans understand history?

>>17969337
Landmarkists believe they wuz Anabaptists.

>>17969158
>Conflating the Anabaptists and Reformed is completely inappropriate [...]
At first the Lutheran position excluded the Reformed as well. The Confessio Augustana (1530) and the Peace of Augsburg (1555) didn't mention them. Johannes Calvin acknowledged the Confessio Augustana in 1540 only because Melanchthon included stipulations that were favorable for the Reformed in a mid 1530s version of the Confessio Augustana. And Calvin advised the Reformed within the HRE to acknowledge this version of the Confessio Augustana so that they would fall under the legal protection it offered. This wasn't necesarry for the Reformed outside of the HRE. In the end, the "teams" were much more about political recognition and legitimacy than about theological debate.
>or the 1540 Augsburg Confession variata which was a deliberate attempt by Melancthon to accommodate Reformed doctrine
Because by the time of the Anabaptist Kingdom of Münster this step hasn't occured yet. My post was soley about this event and what led up to it.
>>17969247
>seeing prots forced to team up with the catholic church to take down fellow prots
Where were they forced?
>>17969250
Anabaptists exist to this very day, Anon. And the rebels of Münster were just a small part of this movement - albeit prominent anabaptist preachers found their death there.

>>17969383
I'm American and I routinely shit on Europeans and their infantile understandings of history and sociology.
>>17969386
Sure but they're a small minority

>>17969443
>At first the Lutheran position excluded the Reformed as well
This, and everything which follows it is wholly irrelevant to the supposition that the Anabaptists and Reformed should in any case be conflated with each other.
>Johannes Calvin acknowledged the Confessio Augustana in 1540 only because Melanchthon included stipulations that were favorable for the Reformed
This fact was stately directly in my post, so I can't fathom why you would bring it up against me.
>In the end, the "teams" were much more about political recognition and legitimacy than about theological debate.
This conclusion is unrelated to everything you said before it, and does not justify the conflation of Reformed and Anabaptist since 1. the groups were defined by their theological differences, especially which directly concerned politics, and 2. the Reformed and Anabaptists themselves certainly did not consider each other on the same "team", as they not only at length condemned each other polemically but politically the former was no more tolerant toward the latter than anyone else, and the latter was no less violent and revolutionary toward the former than anyone else. If you remove the word "western" from my previous definition it would be fair to say they had no more in common with each other than they did with the Greek church, which should highlight how absurd this conflation is.
>Because by the time of the Anabaptist Kingdom of Münster this step hasn't occured yet. My post was soley about this event and what led up to it.
This is manifestly false since you talked about the Peace of Augsburg in 1555.

>>17965691
>That patron saint I saw you wit?
>she had a mustache like a fireman!

>>17965680 (OP)
When Gooners are given power bad things happen