Thread 17967653

Please discuss Persian-Mesopotamian religions like Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, Mandaeism, Mazdakism, Zurvanism, Yazidism, Yasranism, Shabakism, and others.

>>17967653 (OP)
Jesus's role in Manichaeism is really cool
>As Jesus the Luminous has his cosmic seat on the moon, at least in popular belief, the moon itself is identified with Jesus the Luminous. A Sogdian text contains the phrase "at night when Jesus [the moon] rose."

>>17967690
>Jesus as the Moon
LIES!!! Jesus is clearly the planet Mercury, you absolute lying Manichaen cretin, you ridiculous babbling buffoon
>In Right Ginza 2.1 (Book 2, Part 1), Jesus is associated with Nbu (the planet Mercury) and Orpheus (Mandaic: aurus). In Right Ginza 5.3, Jesus is also portrayed as one of the matarta guards, as he plays the role of a shepherd leading a congregation of souls resembling a flock of sheep.[5][4]

I believe in the one true God, Time, called Zurvan. Before the world existed, he alone existed with matter, eternal.

From Time sprang forth two spirits, the Holy Spirit, called Spenta Mainyu or Ahura Mazda, and the Evil Spirit, called Angra Mainyu or Ahriman. By their generation the unformed, eternal matter, was formed into a cosmos and the created order began to exist. For Time and matter is all that really exists, and there are no immaterial spirits as some of the foolish say.

Ahrua Mazda created heaven, while Ahriman created hell. Zurvan, father Time, allotted Ahrima 9000 years to rule over the cosmos, and then everything would be given into the hands of Ahurah Mazda for eternity. Those who follow the path of righteousness, of good thoughts and good words and good deed, will dwell with Ahurah Mazda and his Saoshyant for eternity, while the wicked will be cast into hell for eternity with Ahriman. The righteous will be resurrected to life everlasting, the wicked to a life of destruction.

The fools say Zurvanism is a Zoroastrian heresy, but the truth is that Mazdaism is the true departure from the original teachings of the prophet Zoroaster. Zurvanism is the only way to correctly interpret the twin spirits doctrine.

>>17967723
I'm not Manichaeism. And Jesus is identified with six identities in Manichaeism, one of them being the moon

>>17967978
>presses the post button with his swarthy jeetspanic finger and attaches his weird dickgirl photo as a reply

>>17967918
What are the other identities?

>>17968025
>Jesus the Luminous is the pre-existent aspect of Jesus in Manichaeism, comparable to the eternal Logos in Christianity. As Jesus the Luminous his primary role was as a revealer and guide; accordingly, it was Jesus the Luminous who awoke Adam revealed to him the divine origins of his soul and its painful captivity by the body and mixture with matter. It is also Jesus who frees Adam and advises him to eat from the Tree of knowledge to escape the prison of the Prince of Darkness

>This aspect of Jesus is the saviour who redeems the light imprisoned in man; the redemptive Intelligence, the Great Nous, is the emanation of him. Jesus the Luminous is one of the redeeming deities of the "third evocation" (a series of deities evoked by the Father of Greatness for the purpose of salvation) and is regarded as an emanation of the Third Messenger, the first member of the third evocation, but, due to its great importance and multiple functions, its position in the divine hierarchy is sometimes represented differently, for example, as Son of Greatness (that is, of the Father of Greatness) or Son of the first man (second member of the "first evocation").

>He is the Great Wisdom, who is responsible for saving the light molecules imprisoned in the human body. He is the third messenger summoned by the supreme deity of Manichaeism to save the world. The Third Messenger's act of salvation made the demons anxious and fearful of losing control of the light element, so they created Adam and Eve, the original human ancestors, and imprisoned the light in the human body as a soul. The Light was able to convey to Adam the spiritual knowledge of salvation in order to awaken the sunken souls of humans. But Adam was tempted by Eve to give birth to Cain, Abel and Seth, resulting in the failure of salvation. As mankind continues to reproduce, the soul is subjected to the flesh, and the light element cannot escape from the confinement of the Prince of Darkness.

>>17968025
>>17968142
>Jesus the Child is described as an emanation of Jesus the Luminous with a close relationship to the Suffering Jesus, identified with the embodiment of the soul's will to redemption.[

>>17968025
>The Risen Jesus, or eschatological Jesus, is prophesied to rule over humanity for 120 years after his final judgment and before the great conflagration purifies the remaining redeemable light. From the Coptic sermon on the Great War, in which Jesus the Luminous is depicted as rendering the Last Judgment, it is clear that the aspect of the Risen Jesus was closely related to that of Jesus the Luminous.

>>17968025
>Jesus the Messiah was the historical Jesus of Nazareth who was identified as the prophet of the Jews and the forerunner of Mani who proclaimed the truth and performed miracles. The Manichaeans upheld a monophysite, docetic Christology, believing that he was wholly divine only, having only a spiritual body and not a material one, although appearing on earth as an apostle of light with a human appearance. Consequently, he never experienced human birth, but was truly born only at his baptism, as it was on that occasion that the Father openly acknowledged his sonship. Christ's changing form and appearance was identified as a "mystery", recalling Augustine's description of Christ's mystica passio. The suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah was in appearance only, exemplary of the suffering and eventual deliverance of the human soul but of no salvific value in itself, although it prefigured Mani's own martyrdom.

>>17968025
>Suffering Jesus (Jesus patibilis) is identical to the World Soul and the Living Self, which is the light that is imprisoned in matter; like the historical Jesus, he is depicted crucified in the world. The pain suffered by the imprisoned light was understood to be real and imminent, not merely metaphorical. This constant and universal suffering of the captive soul is expressed in the crucifixion of the Suffering Jesus, who was the "life and salvation of Man", on the cross of light on which he was suspended. This mystica cruxificio was present not only in every tree, herb, fruit, and vegetable, but even in the stones and the soil of the Earth, as described in the Coptic Manichaean psalms.

>>17968142
>>17968146
>>17968150
>>17968155
>>17968158
How did you convert to Manichaeism?

>>17968167
I'm not a Manichaean, I just like to study it. But unironically reddit has a discord for actual practitioners.
https://www.reddit.com/r/manichaeism/s/Nx8BFwBnkt

>>17968184
How do you convert???

>>17969313
Online conversion isn't really a thing. You'd have to find an actual church IRL, and they don't exist outside of China

>>17967653 (OP)

The more you read about them, the more you realize the Persians really were the cool kids in Antiquity. Alexander became a "Medizer", the Magi confirmed the birth of Christ, Zoro "the gay" Aster was the wisest person/prophet ever by all accounts and their art/architecture is beautiful, Cyrus seems to have been genuinely "Great", Medea was crazy but "cool", they kept the Pajeets at arms length for ages, etc.....etc.....


Then, the fucking Muslims.........they always ruin everything always. Fuck, even the Jews loved the Persians, but the Muslims have to fuck up every cool thing they every touch.

Thankfully, the youth of Iran are awakening. They're sick of the "Boomer"/Islamists too. They've already won in terms of demographics and I'm sure America will come along to help institute "Democracy" for Persia sooner, rather than later. We'll let then take care of Israel for us too ;)

>>17967723
No, Jesus is the "Morningstar"/"Evenstar"/"Lightbringer" and even the Sun itself.

Odin is Mercury/Hermes/Wisdom Seeker/Chthonic messenger, etc.....

>>17967653 (OP)
>Persian-Mesopotamian
No such connection exists.

>>17969760
Yes it does faggot.

>>17970164
Mesopotamia went through the following religions.
Mespotamian Paganism -> Chrisitianity -> Islam
Zoroastrianism lifted iconography from Assyria. That's it. There's no such thing as Persian-Mesopotamian religion

>>17969725
I hope Iran becomes Zoroastrian, decorates Cyrus' tomb with the carcasses of you know who, and then becomes even more radical as a way to piss off cunts like you. Bring back scaphism with chants from the Avesta.
Iran was NEVER your ally even before Islam. Kys. Cyrus made a mistake. Iran has chosen China over hypocritical golem slaves like you.
>We'll let then take care of Israel for us too ;)
Lol no, btw, you and Jews are psychologically the same thing, even more than Iranians and Arabs are.

>>17970185
Yes there is, faggot. Yazidism, for example, syncretizes Mesopotamian paganism with Islam and Zoroastrianism. Mandaeism syncretizes aspects of Mesopotamian paganism with Gnosticism.

>>17970252
>Yazidism
Post islam religion with no connection to ancient mesopotamia. That ship sailed away long before anyone conceived of this
>mandaeism
Just another abrahamic religion.

Stop deluding yourself.

>>17967653 (OP)
>Persian-Mesopotamian


Aryan-Semite.........Yeah, no.

>>17970272
Retard
Also, there is no such thing as a supra Aryan identity. Why is there so much variation among Aryan beliefs like Vedanta, Zoroastrianism, Baltic-Slavic paganism, Hellenism, etc.? It's like saying there is such a thing like Afroasiatic identity that ties Ancient Egypt to modern Arabs... There is no such thing.
If by Aryan you mean original savage steppe dwellers like Sintashta, Sarmatians, and Scythians, then Zoroastrianism was anti-Aryan. It didn't have anything positive to say about them. It viewed them as cursed people who engaged in endless cattle raids, wars, etc.
Even if Zoroaster may have originally been of largely Aryan/steppe ancestry, the steppe warrior aristocracies rejected him, and he was exiled most likely to BMAC. Zoroaster's teachings grew more among the Iran_N derived peoples after all.
In much the same manner Christcucks see Jews as a cursed people for rejecting Christ, so too did ancient Zoroastrians see Scythians and other steppe savages as cursed for rejecting Zoroaster.
Calling Zoroastrianism Aryan is the same as calling Christianity Jewish, which is highly disputable.

>>17967653 (OP)
>Persian-Mesopotamian religion
The only religion where this descriptor makes any sense is shia islam and that is only because the main pilgrimage sites are located in iraq and iran.

>>17967761
Illiterate LARPing trash.

>>17970297
Buddhism was the Iran_N Kshatriya reaction against steppe Brahmin casteism degeneracy.

>>17967761
>>17970242
>>17970297
>>17970390

What would a Buddhist Zoroastrian syncretic religion look like?

>>17970405
Retarded. It's not good to mix disparate traditions too much.

The form of Buddhism that was big in ancient Iran and Central Asia was Sarvastivada. Back then peoples' brains weren't rotted by idpol. Sarvastivada died out with Nagarjuna's Shunyata/emptiness discourse. Sarvastivadins saw dharmas as existing in past, present, and future whereas Nagarjuna effectively argues dharmas only provisionally exist as a skillful means. I am simplifying a lot.

Regardless, that leads to philosophical dispute, not idpol garbage with meme diagrams the way dysgenic cretins on here and X endlessly go on about.

>>17970405
Literally Manichaeism. Literally.

>>17970411

Didn't the Sogdians and other Central Asians syncretize both of them? It happened historically. Just tell me what parts you would keep from both if you were a Sassanid king enacting religious reform.

>>17970443
You should kys, illiterate retard. I just got done talking about that. You are either a bot or low class druggie with shit for brains.

Also, why should I explain all of this to you? If you're not ancestrally Iranian and you're not sincerely interested in philosophy outside of LARPing, then I have no reason to explain shit to you.

>>17970450

You rambled like a meth addict about Sarvastivada vs Nagarjuna. You never mentioned Zoroastrianism or the syncretism with Buddhism.

>>17970464
No, you are the meth addict.
>You never mentioned Zoroastrianism or the syncretism with Buddhism.
Why syncretize incompatible systems? There could be minor influence, but who cares? The core philosophies are incompatible. Zoroastrianism was a Messianic tradition with a powerful God and ressurection. Buddhism was about seeking enlightenment and breaking out of the cycle of rebirth.

Regardless, I demand to know your ethnic and racial background. I don't like talking about Iranian heritage with Euros, Arabs, or Jews.

>>17970411
They are not disparate. It is a misconception of brainlets such as yourself. In fact, Zoroaster strongly influenced Gautama.

>these beings who behaved well by body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right view, and undertook action based on right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world

>>17970508
I highly recommend you neck yourself. Unlike you, I've read way more Zoroastrian scriptures and the Pali canon + Mahayana sutras.

They are incompatible, and you will suffer for countless kotis of kalpas. Neck yourself, and I hope Iran does become Zoroastrian and more brutal towards Aneran, including Euroshit golem like you. Stop fucking with my cultural legacy with your shit revisionist takes.

>>17970475

If you will not give your design of a syncretic Buddhist Zoroastrian religion and which parts would be kept then I will not share my ethnic or racial background.

>>17970519
Idiot. They have much in common. Syncretism is done with incompatible religions all the time so screeching that they're incompatible is pointless. You will be sent to Naraka.

>>17970577
That's fine.
>>17970580
They are incompatible. It's obvious you haven't read the Gathas, Bundashihn, Zend-Avesta, Vendidad (lots of gross stuff there), and more. I doubt you have read the Pali canon or Mahayana sutras also, etc., let alone even know the older Abidhamma system.

They are incompatible in their overall soteriological objectives.

>>17970615
I combined Christianity with Zoroastrianism, and Islam and Buddhism, and Hinduism and Norse Paganism

>>17970580
I have read the Gathas and Pali Canon. There were similarities everywhere.

>Ahriman tempting Zoroaster after his awakening
>Mara tempting Gautama after his awakening

Completely incompatible religions do syncretize with each other. It wouldn't stop a syncretic religion from forming.

>>17970411
I'll save my main complaints with your argument for below, but you should have been clearer that Sarvastivadins believed that dharmas specifically possessed tangible attributes as this really doesn't make sense otherwise

>>17970443
They did syncretise especially in Central Asia, I have no idea what he's talking about. If you look at the Sogdian religious paintings in Tajikistan I think, you can clearly see Iranian goddesses such as Anahita paying homage to a Buddha. Zoroastrianism was never the sole Iranian religion in the first place as is evident from the OP alone, so the entire conception that it could not coexist with Buddhism is faulty.

>>17970615
>They are incompatible in their overall soteriological objectives.
That only matters today when Zoroastrians are a small community whose faith heavily informs their lives, but in the historical context there was no codification of the Iranian religions compared to the universal acceptance of the Vedas in Hinduism meaning the region was especially ripe for syncretism

>>17970657
>>17970668

You seem to know a lot. What do you think a syncretic Buddhist Zoroastrian religion would look like?

>>17970677

Let's say before either was codified, so before the 1st century BC, perhaps around the Achaemenid period.

>>17970677
It would be functionally identical to Chinese or Japanese Buddhism viz. the retention of local deities and mythical creatures as worshippers of the Buddha. Keeping Zarathustra and the theistic structure is a bit more complicated, likely Ahuramazda and Ahriman would simply be viewed as superior gods whose scope is limited to a single world like Brahma in Buddhism. Zarathustra would most likely be adapted to a Bodhisattva whose teachings really corresponded to Buddhism. It's a bit more favourable to Buddhism but there's a historical precedent for such syncretism so I'm just following that

Sassanids literally had apostasy laws and slaughtered Buddhists, dumb cunts.

I'm Buddhist due to honest assessment. I would be executed in the Sassanian empire.

Anyways, most of you are Jews. A zoroastrian Iran would not be your allies either. Neither would be a Buddhist Iran. The conflict has to do with economic competition.

>>17970708
>Sassanids literally had apostasy laws and slaughtered Buddhists, dumb cunts
Sassanids are not representative of Iranian religion, their reforms of Zoroastrianism as a state religion were a reaction to Christianity and we don't know how widely they were enforced

>>17970712
Are you even Iranian? Stfu. I'm getting sick and tired of autistic cunts nit-picking everything for their shit revisionist takes. I demand to know your ethnic, racial background.

>>17970703

That is probably too Buddhism-centric. They would incorporate some parts of Buddhism into Zoroastrianism, not the other way around. The eightfold path as an extension of existing Zoroastrian concept. Buddhist-style meditation. Gautama as the successor to Zoroaster, but his teachings are seen through the perspective of the Avestas, taking metaphorically much of what Gautama said. Monastic orders, especially with warrior monks like in Japan.

>>17970721
I'm not who you were arguing with earlier, and providing necessary historical background on a history board isn't nit-picking

>>17970728
Your idea is indeed fairer, but historically speaking something like what I described in the first part of my post is what happened in Central Asia, where Buddhism provided the theological basis for continued worship of Iranian deities

>>17970738

I think the biggest difference would be a long history of Persian statehood and Persian religious tolerance. That differentiates them from the Chinese, Japanese, and Sogdians. If it had been the Achaemenids that found Buddhism, and not the Sassanids, then there would've been a lot more syncretization with Zoroastrianism, of course with a more dominant Zoroastrian component. What do you think that would look like?

>>17970738
Why don't you tell me your racial or ethnic background, faggot?

>>17970747
Now that's an interesting counterfactual, if syncretism received sustained support then I suppose they would follow a bizarre mix of Abhidharma and Mahayanist dialectic, with emphasis on good deeds manifesting at its highest level in the pursuit of the Bodhisattva vow. Zarathustra and Gautama Buddha would be viewed as two supreme prophets promoting the liberation of all beings from evil through wisdom and compassion. The ultimate goal would be liberation from both good and evil as the supreme truth of being, but only after all beings are liberated. Religious rites would continue, with Zoroastrianism customs dominating the religion's organisation while adopting aspects such as Bodhisattvas and anatman but for the sake of understanding perceived in a dualist way

All fanfiction of course, but a fun idea

>>17970754
Why don't you address my points?

You people are so fishy. Zoroshit and Pisslam have so many commonalities, and I find your revisionist takes suspicious like FEDs.

>>17970758
Because you won't answer my simple question.

>>17970756

>Now that's an interesting counterfactual, if syncretism received sustained support then I suppose they would follow a bizarre mix of Abhidharma and Mahayanist dialectic, with emphasis on good deeds manifesting at its highest level in the pursuit of the Bodhisattva vow.
This is a logical conclusion to Zoroastrian concepts like "good thoughts, good words, and good deeds" fusing with either Abhidharma or Mahayana concepts.

>Zarathustra and Gautama Buddha would be viewed as two supreme prophets promoting the liberation of all beings from evil through wisdom and compassion.
Yes, my thoughts exactly.

>The ultimate goal would be liberation from both good and evil as the supreme truth of being, but only after all beings are liberated.
I am going to disagree here. The victory of good led by Ahura Mazda would be the ultimate goal. Dukkha only exists because of Ahriman so humans seek enlightenment to stop the cycle of birth and death in a corrupted universe, until the victory of Ahura Mazda and the resurrection of all including those who reached enlightenment. This somewhat changes anatman and samsara to fit into the Zoroastrian eschatology, since Zoroastrianism is the more dominant of the two.

>Religious rites would continue, with Zoroastrianism customs dominating the religion's organisation while adopting aspects such as Bodhisattvas and anatman but for the sake of understanding perceived in a dualist way
Yes, my thoughts exactly.

>>17970792
Your revision makes sense, in that case the dialectic and soteriology of Buddhism is used to reinforce the theology of Zoroastriasm, allowing for the gathas to remain fully relevant as the basis for the faith. As might be obvious I'm better acquaintanced with the Buddhist perspective so your additions really helped make this syncretic religion somewhat believable

>>17970792
>>17970803
You are icchantikas AND darvands. Most likely hasbara too.

>>17967653 (OP)
Why do you call them Persian-Mesopotamian when they drip with Vedic influence?
There's nothing mesopotamian about them. Zero, literally zero.

>>17970854
Btw Mandaeism is a gnostic sect of semitic origin. And Yazidism, Yasranism, Shabakism, etc are post Islamic microscopic sincretisms in the style of the Shia ethno-religions like the Alawites or the Alevis.
Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, Mazdakism (barely even a religion, imo, Kavad just implemented all their reforms anyway), and Zurvanism are legitimately Iranic, though.

>>17970868
They are more "Zagrosian", coper trash.

>>17969725
>even the Jews loved the Persians
I find this hard to believe.

>>17967653 (OP)
Persian-Mesopotamian is a weird way to present it.
Persian religions are closer to their PIE polytheist predecessors.
Mesopotamian religions share characteristics with Semites.

>>17970873
Avestan comes from central Asia, centering itself around modern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, parts of Pakistan and Kyrgizstan. Zoroastrianism, and by extension everything deriving from it, is as Zagrosian as it is Chinese or Mexican.
You are the coper, nigger.
>>17971048
Cyrus is the only Gentile to be a Messiah. They made a very big deal out of him, in the bible.
>>17971053
There's quite a bit of Vedic DNA in the avesta, imo.

>>17971077
>Avestan comes from central Asia, centering itself around modern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, parts of Pakistan and Kyrgizstan. Zoroastrianism, and by extension everything deriving from it, is as Zagrosian as it is Chinese or Mexican.
>You are the coper, nigger.

And Christianity comes from the Levant. Does that mean that European Christianity is wholly describable in terms of being Levantine in origin?

Also, there were a lot of Zagrosian elements mixed into Zoroastrianism when it spread. For example, both Elamites and Zoroastrians revered hedgehogs, and the Gathas are highly critical of the excessive cattle raids of steppe savages.

Also, Cyrus made a mistake, and his tomb should be "decorated."

>>17971085
Another extra: the iconography of the Faravahar literally comes from the Assyrian Ashur.

This entire thread glows with hasbara.
Reviving Zoroastrianism isn't going to make Iranians your allies, and trying to create revisionist narratives that Zoroastrianism was reflective of steppe beliefs won't work to anyone with any basic historical understand. The iconography of the Faravahar literally fucking derives from the Assyrian Ashur.

>>17971085
>And Christianity comes from the Levant. Does that mean that European Christianity is wholly describable in terms of being Levantine in origin?
No. But I never really alleged anything like that. I was being pedantic, however. And of course there are some later Mesopotamian influences, but calling the religion 'Perso-Mesopotamian' is a bit ridiculous. You dump all the vedic elements.
>Also, there were a lot of Zagrosian elements mixed into Zoroastrianism when it spread.
When it spread.
> and the Gathas are highly critical of the excessive cattle raids of steppe savages.
And they also bemoan the abandonment of pastoralism for sedentary farming.
>>17971110
Oy vey! My plan to revive Zoroastrianism by regurgitating scholarly concensus on the geographic origins of Avestan has been exposed!

>>17971119
Zagrosian is not exactly Mesopotamian.
>When it spread.
Then it becomes Persian just like Christianity became European. You're right its origin is around Yaz, which had more steppe admixture.
>And they also bemoan the abandonment of pastoralism for sedentary farming.
Source?
>My plan to revive Zoroastrianism by regurgitating scholarly concensus on the geographic origins of Avestan has been exposed!
You don't go deep enough. When it comes to the question of identity, you have to deal with mutations.

What is some good Manichaean literature, either primary or secondary literature. Seeing as this is the only good thread on /his/

>>17971141
Are you going to reject the entire poetry, music, and etc. influenced by Christianity that was mixed with Hellenistic and etc. elements? Cultures have influenced each other since ancient times.

>>17971077
>Cyrus is the only Gentile to be a Messiah.
Sounds very suspicious by virtue of it being impossible to trust Jews

Im not too much a fan of Zoroastrianism because Ahura Mazda and Mitra are inspired by the Vedic Varuna and Mitra, but after some centuries Varuna got demoted to the deep waters while a Jupiterean figure replaced him.

So while there is a shared etymology between Ahura (Varun being among his names) and Varuna, somehow Ahura Mazda got conflated with Jupiter to go along with his Venus daughter Anahita/Atena.

Its because the Egyptian religion of Aten influenced the development of Zoroastrianism and especially Judaism, which is inherently a Venus guided religion instead of Solar worship like most places.

>>17969725
>>17971077
Biblical Judaism was probably heavily inspired by Zoroastrianism, if it's not a branch of it. Jews, who were either polytheists or monolatrists, met Persians, who believed in one god (Ahriman isn't really a god, more like a Satan figure), had a savior figure (Saoshyant) and an apocalyptic prophecy. Then suddenly, the Jews are strictly monotheistic, believe in an apocalpytic prophecy, and a savior figure.

Angels are also similar to Amesha Spentas and Yazatas, which are divine enttites not considered gods, just servants of the God.

There was also some Jewish text too that correlated Persian and Jewish messianic prophecies, which got lost but at the time was well-known enough that Christians would tell the Magi from the East story to prove Jesus was the Messiah.

>>17971198
Zoroastrianism isnt really monotheistic. But if you read up on Atenism you can see where this comes from.
Jews are apocalyptic because they worship the goddess that caused the cataclysm thousands of years ago.

>>17971125
>Zagrosian is not exactly Mesopotamian.
I was objecting to the title. Plus, you cannot include the Assyrians into 'Zagrosian' Assur is squarely within Mesopotamia.
>Then it becomes Persian just like Christianity became European.
Ehhhh. I would object to both of those. Plus Persians were like, one Aryan/Iranic people. Saying a religion becomes 'persian' is like saying another one becomes 'german'.
>Source?
Got mixed up between concepts. Even then though, Zoroastrianism arising as a reaction against Vedism is not a strong point in your favour.
As for thelast one, I get it's an identity thing to you. But I'm not trying to say your ethnicity is illegitimate or anything.
>>17971198
Zoroastrians are polytheistic though. They have a shitton of subordinate gods. Like Mithras.
>>17971176
Ok. Whatever.

>>17971306
Jewy jew jew

>>17971198
Isn't Zoriastrianism itself a weird spin off of Indian religion?

>>17971316
Damn right. I am proud to be chosen. I made up the entire world prior to last thursday using my magical kabbalah powers btw.
Yes including Hitler.

>>17971363
Yes, sprinkled with Atenism which is the real religion of the Jews.
>>17971402
Yes, the Devil chose you, congratulations.

>>17971425
Yuup. The Jews worship the sun, they totally do. Who can forget when the sun told Akhenaten to cut the skin of his dick.
(Ignore that there is literally zero archeological evidence for the exodus narrative.) Moses was a hecking Atenist priest and shit.

>>17971306
>Plus, you cannot include the Assyrians into 'Zagrosian' Assur is squarely within Mesopotamia.
The iconography for Assur may have been influenced by double-headed eagle from Jiroft, Iran or BMAC. I consider those both Zagrosians.
>Plus Persians were like, one Aryan/Iranic people. Saying a religion becomes 'persian' is like saying another one becomes 'german'.
Christianity was Europeanized, and a similar thing happened with Zoroastrianism when it spread into Western Iran.
>Even then though, Zoroastrianism arising as a reaction against Vedism is not a strong point in your favour.
Zoroastrianism was more pro-BMAC whereas early Vedas is more pro-Aryan. Zoroastrianism is also full of theriomorphic gods and therianthropes whereas original Aryans didn't have a single therianthropic or theriomorphic god. An interesting point few people ever bring up.
>As for thelast one, I get it's an identity thing to you. But I'm not trying to say your ethnicity is illegitimate or anything.
I appreciate it, but what I am trying to argue is deeper in that all these traditions influenced each other, sometimes in imperceptible ways, and this leads to a situation where deconstructing *any* identity is easy after gaining more knowledge.
I've changed my views from the past, and I do think that any time something gets -ized, then it can be claimed as belonging to the people.
European Christianity isn't perfect, but it did influence a lot of good stuff. It is distinctly European.

>>17971125
Mesopotamia was Iran_N. It's their major ancestry.

>>17971085
Zoroastrianism is far more Iran_N than European Christianity was Europe. Zoroastrianism is a repudiation of the barbaric steppe religion. Europeans were unable to add any of their theology to Christianity which remained a Semitic religion and never repudiated the J1 Semitic man they worship as their God.

>>17971452
Aten is not the Sun, it pretends to be a life giving force hence the little hands. Like the way God's voice is portrayed in Judaism.

>>17971452
This might also be of interest to you
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=27457.0

>>17971473
I'm not sure I entirely agree. Christianity was Europeanized, and it's what influenced much of their great music like Mozart and poets like Blake.
If you go back far enough, none of us really "own" anything since every tradition was made from a nexus of influences. Same with language, really.

I really hate all of the Abrahamic traditions, Gnosticism, and Mazdaeism though. Philosophically speaking.

>>17971487
You can respect Mozart without being a lying faggot. Europeans did not have any influence on the theology of the Semitic religion that conquered them. They were not allowed to add their own deities or rituals to Christianity. Westerners still worship the J1 man and his Semitic mother. They even converted most of the third world to worshiping him.

>>17971504
Stfu, Jew. Cyrus' tomb will be decorated. Sick and tired of you hasbara freaks. Cyrus' mistake will be corrected.

>>17971185
>>17971496
You people are fucking retarded. Please never become historians. Why the hell would anyone give a shit about your personal feelings about anything historical. Just state the facts about the topic, not "how I feel" like a woman.

>>17971750
None of you are impartially conveying history. You're mixing ulterior political agenda and gay occultism with how you convey Zoroastrian history.

>>17971765
Wrong. I just came back to this thread after dumping Manichaean info. You know nothing

>>17971750
Because it affects my personal life, so Im touching upon the humanities part of religion you cocksucker.
Half my posts here have already been impartial anyway.

>>17970868
>>17971306
>Iranic
no such word exists. That's Iranian.

Turkish/Turkic classification makes sense, because the ethnic Turkish and the ethnic Turkic are the different stuffs.
The ethnic Iranians and the ethnic ""Iranics"" are the same thing on the other hand.
>B... but, Iranians in Islamic republic of Iran are only a part of the Iranics
They have never made up an ethnicity "Iranian" to distinguish Iranians inside and outside of historical Persia.
Sogdians, Khwarazmians, and Scythians are all Iranians.

>>17971823
Whatever, freak

>>17971155
europeans sycretized it with hellenism
that's not the norm in old world christianity

>>17970803

Yes that happens if it occurred during an earlier period like the Achaemenid, Seleucid, or Parthian. Earlier forms of Buddhism and Zoroastrianism should syncretize easily. Maybe a king would try to cut the power of the clergy and patronize a syncretic sect that replaces Mazdaism.

>>17969725
>The more you read about them, the more you realize the Persians really were the cool kids in Antiquity
Truly. China, Persia, India, Greece (CPIG) are my picks for most pivotal civs.

>>17972312
My point was traditions are always syncretizing and influencing one another, so one can keep pushing back the "origin" of traditions based on significant influences or syncretizations.

I'm pretty sure if you dig deep, you can find Egyptian influences on the original Zoroastrianism eventually.

>>17972862
you can make that retarded point. it's still far from the truth.
scripture never changed as to where the rise of christianity took place. to this day, there is nothing in the fake continent of europe that is important for Christianity.
as a matter of fact, the word "Europe" does not appear in the Bible at all.

>>17971198

Something like this. Whatever went into Babylon, isn't what came out, and many of the Jews stayed behind and never left until the Islamic Revolution(s) in the 70s. Baghdad/Babylon had zillions of Jews throughout all of history, but it started under the Persians who were one of the few Indo-Europeans to rule Babylon. Once again, without the "Aryans", there would be no "Jews".

>>17971214

Wrong again, Schlomo! It was you Jews that stole "They Hymn to the Aten" and called it "Psalm 104"......Go look.

>>17971480

The Sun is very much a "life giving force". How long do you think we would last without it?

inb4 muh thermal vents n' sheeeeiiiit

>>17971504
they added Mary/Venus worship along with a polytheistic pantheon of "Saints" and Angels with entire branches of study and "science" dedicated to them.

The Pagan veneer on Christianity is rice paper thin in the Bible itself and virtually nonexistent thereafter.

It's just good ol' Sol Invictus, Mithras, Helios, Krishna, etc.......with an edgy courtroom drama setting.

>>17971505

It's already been happening for several years now. Young Persians fucking hate Islam and are making pilgrimages to the Messiah's Tomb with flowers, prayers, tears of joy. The world is healing.....

>>17973359
That was already Ra, or Amon-Ra, so why replace it with Aten? Just to get beat up and your things destroyed to go back to Amon-Ra? The man contacted something else for sure.

>>17973356
You dont get to call someone who is not a Jew and saying something against their religion a Jew. But that "no, you" is definitely something they would do.

>>17973367
>they added Mary/Venus worship
Thats Judaism, and to me Christianity still has a very strong Venus presence in what was probably supposed to be a correction to that faith. Its why Jesus dies and is resurrected and the feast day is called Easter for the goddess Eostre (like Ouranos dying and Venus being born sort of ritual).

If it were a proper Solar worship day, it would have been on an actual equinox or solstice day.

>>17973861
I know you will say
>but the Jews hate Mary!
Remember Aten is Athena a water goddess of the lake Tritonis, associated to Venus daughter of Jupiter. Nothing to do with the Sun.
And Mary is Athena is Mnrva is Aphrodite is Isis is Queen Esther is Stella Maris is ISHTAR all the same. Venus worship in disguise. They dont even venerate Saturn, or perhaps at some point they didnt realize it was switched.

Its not for nothing that all these billionaires and wealthy and exploitative industries are associated to Venusian and underwater cults. It was never even about the eclipse lmao unless they confuse "moon and star", by which the star is not the actual star Sol but whom they call "The Star" - Venus, Queen of Heaven Ishtar

Its all convoluted so bear with me, Im still trying to clear it all up.

>>17971214
Atenism lasted for around 20 years and virtually nothing is known about it. There is also no proof that there was any interaction between the Jews and Atenist Egyptians.

Also the timeline doesn't add up, Akhenaten ended in Egypt before even the first evidence of Yahwism (Jewish Polytheism) appeared. Jews became Monolatrist/Henotheist maybe around the 9th century BC, along with other states in the Mesopotamia and Levant regions that also worshipped just one god. And evidence for actual Monotheism came even later. So unless there was some secret Atenist society through all these centuries that ended up influencing the Jews some time in the 6th century, it's probably a coincidence.

>>17973933
>Akhenaten died before even the first evidence of Yahwism