Thread 17970509

And if you could please don’t straw man this “left-wing” interpretation of history, I’m on on the right as well and fundamentally disagree with the position but I’d like to here the actual argument.
To the people who believe so: why do you think chatter slavery in the US was worse then it was in other countries throughout history??

I heard a religious guy on the radio argue that american slavery was somehow only based on race and different which makes no sense but the other guy agreed with him and he seemed pretty sure that everybody listening agreed with him

>>17970509 (OP)
It wasn't. It was significantly better than most other variants of slavery throughout history, abolitionists themselves even said this. There were more stringent rules, social expectations, and significant cultural hangups that led to antebellum Southern slavery being, while still cruel, probably the least bad form of slavery that ever was. Historically, most slaves were treated much worse than black slaves were in the U.S South. The depiction of antebellum slavery that popular media shows today is wildly different than how it truly was.

>>17970509 (OP)
>left-wing
Stopped reading. Leftists have raped you faggots mentally.

>>17970570
hi leftypol

>>17970509 (OP)
>To the people who believe so: why do you think chatter slavery in the US was worse then it was in other countries throughout history??
It wasn't the worst ever. One good thing about it, for example, is that slaves were expensive to replace so they were not likely to be deliberately worked to death. But it was pretty bad.
>slaves have no ability to earn their freedom; if you're a slave, then you and all your descendants are doomed to be slaves forever
>families carelessly broken up when they're sold to different masters
>brutally hard work, shitty living conditions, no practical limits on abuse by masters
>can't really do shit besides work and rest, can't even learn to read
>be forced to abandon your entire cultural identity, your ancestors' religion, language etc.
A lot of historical slavery lacked at least one of these features.

>>17970813
>slaves have no ability to earn their freedom
Incorrect. Slaves had the ability to purchase their freedom in many slave states, and there were essentially apprenticeship manumission programs that would help a slave work to pay for his freedom on the understanding he'd leave the South when freed (this in particular really upset the """abolitionists""" who all were white supremacists for the most part who didn't want freed slaves to settle in the north)
>families carelessly broken up when they're sold to different masters
While this sometimes happened, it was less common than people believe.

>>17970509 (OP)
Cotton and Tobacco slavery in the American south was objectively less worse than Sugar slavery in Louisiana, the Caribbean, the Spanish Main, and Brazil. I would also argue that slavery in the American south was also not as terrible as that in the Middle East where slaves were castrated. Oftentimes slavery in the American south would have been no worse than that of slavery within Africa itself.

>>17970509 (OP)
It was a 17th century and older format modernized for the 19th century and there were many more atrocities, on a new scale due to modernity. Everything is bigger in America. It was dystopian and the product of more violent times and cultures than those of the critic, in any era. It wasn't "all bad" but it had those factors shall we say working against it.

>>17970826
The only measurable difference between the day to day life of a black laborer on a plantation in the 1870s after slavery's abolition and in the 1850s before its abolition is that in the latter they had, at least theoretically, freedom of movement to go work at other plantations if they didn't like the first of their own volition. Otherwise, most everything was more or less the same on a day to day basis.

>>17970509 (OP)
It was less to do with how the slaves were treated, but the effect that American slavery had on the world as a whole. No other slave system resulted in the global proliferation of systematic discrimination and oppression of group of people based purely on their appearance and descent.
Likewise, even in other nations with slavery you didn't see the widespread effort to fuck over freed slaves more than in the American South. Although, I'd argue this had more to do with Reconstruction being a complete failure. Other nations which abolished basically just let the freedmen loose into society and expected them to figure shit out from there.

>>17970813
Appreciate the actual coherent answer dude
Thank you

>>17970837
I think one important difference is that the US wasn't a small island. Blacks could take over Barbados and Jamaica and leave the whites as a market-dominant minority excepting a few "red legs" to be ignored.
In the American South, you had near population parity. Blacks couldn't take over, say, Louisiana without a massive problem with a million whites.

>>17970837
its not only based on apperance but actions

>>17970509 (OP)
In most societies, slaves were able to earn or buy their freedom. Some were even granted rights and their masters had to treat their slaves in accordance with the law. In most cases, slaves were freed when their master died.

If you were born a black slave in America that was pretty much it until the day you died with a crooked back.

>>17970509 (OP)
dead topic

>>17971069
irrelevant

>>17970813
>brutally hard work

>>17971500
Okay. Go pick cotton, then, nigger. For 12 hours in the Texas heat. And if you slack off, I'll whip your entire family

>>17970509 (OP)
Slaves in the southern states were often entrusted to run the entire operations of a plantation or farm themselves by their absentee owner. This included planning, delegating, overseeing work, and increasing production using their own creativity. Or, in the case of small farms, the slave owners would work in the fields beside the slaves. Many slave owners would give their slaves Sundays off to rest and some even provided the slaves with musical instruments, Bibles (accompanied by lessons), materials to make their own garments, or simple hobby items to pass the time. Slaves were provided medical care when needed and were not beaten nearly aa often as depicted in media accounts of the times (although it still happened). Slaves fought alongside their masters in some instances during Lincoln’s war and some even continued fighting union soldiers after their master had been killed in action (instead of fleeing to freedom or joining the union, although both of these still occurred). It was still a morally detestable and grotesque institution but it wasn’t all savage beatings, brutal treatment, and unending hard labor with zero autonomy as the mainstream now depicts. Plus, there are written accounts of people saying that blacks seemed happier and race relations seemed more positive in the South than in the North.

It wasn't worse, I'm relatively sure that many at the time openly nodded to the fact.

I think the bigger issue was
>our country is all about how all men are born equal, we're all about freedom, hooray
>chattel slavery? sorry bro, we need it or the southern aristocrats will seethe

>>17971523
Well it's obvious blacks weren't considered the men in the declaration. The interpretation that everyone magically qualified for what are essentially anglo Saxon and tribal britonic rights is asinine. You can clearly tell when the US went off the rails when communists took over and opened our borders and gave all the brown people illegal amnesty. If you want to talk about mediocre half brained interpretations of US law go bo further that brown people claiming the document written entirely by white men who were slave owners and smugglers somehow retroactively applied to some third world spearchucker halfway around the world

>>17971530
The “US” went off the rails with Washington’s response to the whiskey rebellion and Adam’s’ alien and sedition acts. The Jeffersonians brought back some sense but Andrew Jackson’s tyrannical response to the South Carolina nullification, while never materialized due to the tariff compromise of 1833, was when the founders’ intent for our voluntary republic of independent sovereign states was killed. Lincoln pissed and shitted all over this ideal and it’s been dead and buried ever since.

>>17971549
Things were pretty bad but at least we weren't actively lying to pretend like brown people qualify for American citizenship

>>17971530
quite literally during the writing of the declaration there were people saying
>do you guys think this will bite us in the ass later because of slavery
but they needed to keep the slavers on board for the independence clause, so they kicked the can down the road.

>>17971575
Blacks were ignored in all the founding documents including state constitutions because they were content with knowing blacks would be er be citizens in the US. It wasn't until the eve of the civil war that Oregon realized blacks might wind up in the north and outright banned all of them from the state

>>17971503
you think slaves picked cotton from 6am to 6pm?

>>17970509 (OP)
Slavers argued slavery was ok because it was commanded/tolerated in the Bible, however slavery was not ownership of the life of the slave. Like when the master makes one of slave’s eyes blind he is forced to free him as a compensation. That’s why American slavery was not biblical, it was a return to Roman slavery which was absolute until after Hadrian. It was and inhuman and am glad it doesn’t exist.

>>17970509 (OP)
I mean depends on your criteria. North America, for reasons still unknown, managed to maintain a breeding population of slaves, which is pretty unique globally and historically and stands in stark contrast with the rest of the Americas, where slaves perished within a year to a couple years after arrival.

So it comes down to whether you think death is a release from suffering or if you think that death is bad, actually.
Also your stance on child sexual abuse will play a role here. Not much chances to engage in that when you primarily import young adult workers.

>>17970820
It's all fun and games until you realize that those slaves often were heads of families, which remained in bondage until the now-freed slave could afford their purchase.

>>17970837
>>17971065
The Germans tried to apply US cotton farming technology to their African colonies. Some researcher pointed out that the basis of the technology was a conviction that negros were genetically inclined to grow cotton.

>>17971500
White people won't even do that for high pay. That's why you're willingly replacing yourselves with modern day beaner slave castes to do it for you.

>>17971503
Texas heat isn't shit. Alabama heat will suffocate you to death.

>>17970566
Why do you feel the need to defend it? Don't guys think slave owners were Jews?

>>17970566
Why do you feel the need to defend it? Don't you guys think slave owners were Jews?

>>17970509 (OP)
Because white man bad obviously

>>17971952
it depends on what part of Texas. a lot of the state is desert or semidesert but the southeast where it gets the air flow from the Gulf has choking humidity and that was where plantation agriculture in the state was mainly located. Houston in summertime is absolutely sweltering.

>>17971916
Whites weren't evolved for that latitude and can't hack the sun and heat down there.

>>17970509 (OP)
Slavery is not binary. American slavery was better than some systems but worse than others. For instance, education was forbidden for slaves, and slavery was hereditary. No matter how talented you were, it was very difficult to rise in status. Meanwhile, in South America, slavery was so brutal that many enslaved people died before even being able to have children. In the Ottoman Empire or among the Mamluks, for example, one could rise to the position of the sultan’s right-hand man or even become part of the royal household.
The whole argument often comes from an American exceptionalist mindset. One significant difference compared to other countries was the strong institutional and racial foundation that supported slavery in the United States.

Also American acedemicans occupy more space than they deserve and their views become global like black lives matter protest in a city with like 3 black people in europe.

>>17970509 (OP)
This bullshit. They are neither and it was stupid to allow them to identify as either.

The US was notionally based on the idea that all men are created equal, Mexico or Ecuador were not.

>>17970509 (OP)
They are neither and it was stupid to allow them to identify as either.

>>17972029
*all white men

>>17971916
The influx of tens of millions of illegal aliens from Latin America into the US is to reduce the cost of labor in the agricultural and service sectors. This delays and hides inflation of grocery prices which would otherwise be approaching Weimar levels of hyperinflation due to the Fed printing seven trillion dollars in 2020-1. If you don’t have illegal aliens working on farms, you have to pay American workers three times as much to do those jobs, and those cuts get passed on to the consumer. The lower and middle classes are already stretched to their breaking point with the prices of groceries as it is so if we didn’t have this massive illegal alien workforce, you would see rampant homelessness, starvation, and crime (way much more than you see now) all over the US. This is why the “mass ICE deportations” are all for show and why neither side wants to stop the invasion and deport the illegals. Remove these people and you get widespread hunger and hyperinflation. This is why it’s very likely that the next presidential administration will be democrat so they can remove any pretense of border security because another round of massive QE is coming.

>>17972119
Costs, not cuts

>>17971952
Houston was unbearable this summer. Literally swamp heat. West Texas might be better

>>17971592
Yes, though you are encouraged prove me wrong.

17971067
thanks Reddit

>>17972145
Shut the fuck up retard if you're so pro-slavery and adamant to defend it, tell me exactly what your thoughts are on the Barbary slave trade and Ottoman slavery.

>>17970509 (OP)
Nobody arfues it's worse, they argue that it's bad and the fact that black people or Arabs owned slaves and treated them worse doesn't make white slavery acceptable.

At least Ottoman slavery allowed for social mobility.

>>17970766
Utterly raped mentally

>>17970826
For what I heard sugar slavery was a death sentence, wasn't this the reason why Haiti revolted as slaves there basically had nothing to lose?

>>17971065
Vicious circle compounded by going from one extreme of trying to supress them to making them social welfare queens. Not that smokies today don't have responsability on their actions but government isn't exactly helping them, it's kinda sad because Malcolm X and MLK wanted them to become self-reliant.

>>17972807
yes, slavery on a sugar plantation is basically the second worst thing you could ever be doing as a slave in all of history, beaten only by Roman mine slaves. Pretty much every step of the process of harvesting and refining sugarcane with pre-modern technology is cartoonishly dangerous

>>17971518
It's like with any social system really, as long as the system creates certain level of afinity and sense of care people will gravitate towards it.
Some days ago there was a border incident between Peru and Colombia where some colombian politician trying to get votes planted a flag at this island, you can imagine the local population wasn't exactly rich, they didn'thave easy lives, being so far away from the capital of Peru, yet they proceed to remove the colombian flag, planted a peruvian one and sang the national anthem in defiance, why would they do that if they didn't live in luxury at San Isidro or had a big account at Banco de Crédito? Yet there it was, a sense of belonging which compelled them to face off an interloper.

>>17971530
Founding Fathers probably didn't think they would end up with so many spanish lands, care yo explain why you anexed so much mexican and spanish clay if you didn't want browns?

>>17972807
The ideological leader of the Haitian revolution was a quadroon who interpreted the rights of man to be his calling to demand equality from the French. He assisted mulattos and blacks in overthrowing the government but was himself betrayed by the blacks when he showed no intention of extending all rights to the black slaves. The Haitian economy immediately collapsed since nobody worked on the farms and the remaining Mulatto leaders started paying off France so they didn't come back and destroy them until 1947.

I find it interesting that people claim that sugar plantations were somehow exceptionally cruel when blacks in the US point at metal torture devices and claim that's what they were wearing when they were picking cotton or whatever. The claim that they only lived to 21 is odd when that's the age that you were usually let out of servitude of your parents or your master as an indentured servant

>>17971982
>Don't you guys think slave owners were Jews?
Only retarded Groypers buy that meme

>>17972032
you hate us because you're weak.

>>17970509 (OP)
I don't really get the packed in like sardines slaves that sounds insanely cruel, I cannot believe that was real, it would be a little like buried alive in a mass grave I wonder if you could poop or pee or it was Human Centipede and shit was everywhere.

>>17971530
>You can clearly tell when the US went off the rails when communists took over
Mentally insane. I've always wondered if retards like you were plants to make anticommunists look bad by associating them with directionless retarded racists.
>>17972856
That question was already addressed back then. Northern Mexico was sparsely settled and barren. They debated annexing further south but didn't want to give political representation to Mexican Indians. The few thousand Mexicans (who were mostly mestizo regardless of what /pol/niggers claim) in the ceded territories were considered a compromise to be made. The idea that Mexicans living there today have any connection to pre-Guadalupe Hidalgo settlers is a chicano meme

>>17971067
>If you were born a black slave in America that was pretty much it until the day you died with a crooked back.
there were manumission societies, voluntary manumission and laws governing manumission like the coartación system in louisiana
yes most slaves werent freed, but that is the same across all enslaving societies, not unique to the US at all

>>17972119
the US is just going to pivot the structure of its agricultural sector if the well of cheap labour runs dry for whatever reason
its just going to be even more grains, onions and maize (which is largely done by machines) and less fruits and vegetables (which require cheap manual labour)
I would guess that most fruit and veg can then be imported from south/middle america
countries like the UK have been doing this for centuries already and its not like americans are exactly allergic to eating processed food, making the process even easier

>>17972785
frederick douglass

>>17973429
Implying the average brown person in the US has any idea what the fuck is going on and isn't basically just a stray dog we keep and tell are equal to us

>>17974113
>Implying the average brown person in the US has any idea what the fuck is going on and isn't basically just a stray dog we keep and tell are equal to us
idk they sure getted mad in 1950s-60s and started a lot of riot and protest. also LA riot in 92.

>>17974120
They do that like every couple years over something completely pointless, do a couple billion dollars of property damage and then slink back to their ghettos. And for some reason they do this to their own cities

>>17971500
It is NOT this easy 90% of the time. Hence why the cotton gin exists and became so widely popular

>>17974120
Most of them had no actual idea what they were rioting over communist activists just went there and told bored young black males to smash things and they were like ok.

Nice ragebait, but nobody who is actually informed about slavery really thinks American Slavery was "that much worse".
You talk to the average black american, and they dont know shit about the Portuguese.
"aight they got niggas in Brazil?". If you do come across a well informed black american, the sentiment I've picked up the most is that they feel they are owed something specifically from the US, since it was their slavery was apart of the creation of the nation, and they feel like they contributed.

I've met both street niggas and hoteps, the hoteps will acknowledge the arab/portugese trade since it is not relevant to them.
If I tell a street nigga about the arab slave trade, they are gonna start hating arabs. Maybe you should actually talk to niggers to get a real idea of what the consensus is. The ONLY people I have heard claim that american slavery was worse, is the whitest liberals ever.

>>17973416
*gets enslaved by every race that encounters you*

>17974113
>17974123
>17974137
non sequitur.
you lost this argument >>17973429

>>17975294
When you tell a brown person they wouldn't qualify for the rights the founding fathers created how do they respond? They probably go "that racis n shiet"

>>17970813
>no ability to earn their freedom
Wrong, they could purchase their freedom and many were freed upon the death of their master if they had served dutifully and espoused a desire to strike out on their own.
Lefties think slaves were yearning to be free.
These werent african Americans, these were yoruba purploids with an IQ in the low 70s, they didnt have a concept of up or down let alone freedom.
>families broken up
This is such a retarded myth.
From the data we have families were basically never broken up and the only selling off that took place was of young men, whom in ALLLLLLL societies everywhere go out from their place of origin. If anything the argument should be in reverse and state that it was unnatural to not break up families by selling off young males who traditionally would have gone off to another tribe to marry.
>brutally hard
They worked less hours than wagies today and their labor was easy enough that their life expectancy was greater than it is today.
>no practical limits on abuse
No, there were practical limits on abuse, slaves could not be wantonly beaten nor could they be murdered nor could they be abandoned because of age or illness. Slaves are never abused, they werent even beaten, there is only 1 photo of a severely whipped slave, one, out of millions of slaves.
There is no practical limit on the abuse of a dog or a child today, are dogs and children brutally oppressed by their owners?
>cant do shit besides work and rest
This was literally everyone before high technology.
>cant learn to read
patently false, data from abolitionists collected in 1870 showed slave literacy was higher than that of Eastern Europeans.
>muh blood and soil
You dont even believe those are important.

Historical slavery had ALL of those and worse.

>>17975318
yeah it's funny the only picture of a whipped slave in existence killed his wife

>>17971503
White people didint evolve to live in hot humid climate like Africans.
>whip your entire family
Why? slave families werent whipped.
think of how lazy blacks are today, youd expect all of them to have died by 1790 if whipping was actually common place.
>12 hours
Listen to the first hand accounts of slaves held in the Library of Congress, they worked like four fucking hours man.
Some worked more some worked less, but their lives were extremely easy.

>>17971523
>>our country is all about how all men are born equal, we're all about freedom, hooray
>>chattel slavery? sorry bro, we need it or the southern aristocrats will seethe
Yeah men born equal, Englishmen, men who deserve freedom, men who do great things with Freedom.

What have blacks done aside from being a menace to the very people who died in the hundreds of thousands to free them?

Why SHOULD blacks be free? What have they contributed that Whites could not have come up with on their own?

>>17975318
>Lefties think
Stopped reading. Why do you fags pretend right wing is when you hate niggers?

>>17971916
>White people willingly
White people OVERWHELMINGLY vote against it in a bipartisan fashion.
It is foisted upon White people because their government is captured by Capitalists and various ethnic lobbies, most prominent being the jews.

>>17975339
>please disregard the Socratic processes you see with your own eyes and listen to me ramble about jewish puppet masters
No. Retards like you make White people sound like gullible lemmings with no agency.

>>17972157
Muslim slavery was cruel and unusual and extremely wasteful of high quality human capital.
The Ottomans themselves realized this and White slaves grew so powerful they became a political and martial organization comparable to the Praetoriate.
the enslavement of negroes was the most productive they have ever been.

>>17972785
being White allows for social mobility because Whites have the ability to be socially mobile.
black slaves in the Ottoman empire were always bottom rung.
White slaves were always high quality and in high demand.
its not a question of slavery, its a question of race.

>>17975345
*democratic processes

>>17975333
we arent right wing, but we know (You) are left wing.

>>17975361
Your definition of left wing is "when I'm not allowed to kill niggers". With this, virtually everyone outside your discord of 20 people is "left wing".

You are a retard and your political views don't exist outside vapid shitposts.

>>17975345
>Whites have been deceived and are at work to counter act this
>but they didnt counteract it instantly that means they have no agency
this is your mind when your melanin content exceeds that of the mediterranean races.
also
>literally one sentence mentioning jews
>ramble about jews
Just admit it, /pol/ was right about the jewish lobby and you are forced to bow your head in shame and grudgingly agree.

>>17975363
>see I say niggers I am one of you goy I mean guy now please give access to White people
Access to White people is not a human right.
Rest of your post is nonsensical.
You are left wing because you think Access to White people is a human right and that Whites defending themselves is le racism.
racism isnt even real, it has no meaning.

>>17975333
>>17975363
wait but do you really disagree that Lefties think black slaves were all theorizing about the Rights of Man and the dignity of individual liberty?
Because they do think that, I have talked to them because as an American I can afford to go to college, unlike your second world shithole.

>>17975372
>let me kill niggers or you are jewish and also a leftist
/pol/tranny meltdown

>>17975377
Why did slaveowners beat slaves for trying to read or write? Were they so stupid that they thought slaves were capable of educating themselves

>>17975404
It was illegal for whites to teach them, it wasn't illegal for blacks to teach other blacks. Black schools were left derelict and misused, sunday schools they were. And if you went in to teach the blacks eventually you would get in trouble

>the law as a "matter of self-defense against Northern anti-slavery agitators who clog the mail with anti-slavery pamphlets to be distributed among Southern Negroes to induce them to cut our throats," and who "scattered pocket handkerchiefs around with anti-slavery engravings to work upon the feelings and ignorance of our negroes, who otherwise would remain comfortable and happy".

>>17975435
>it wasn't illegal
The law doesn't matter when your owner can torture or kill you with impunity. Every single slave account I've read attests to that
>Black schools were left derelict
All 5 of them that were legislated out of existence
>self-defense
Yes, it's generally harder to brutalize a well educated and intelligent population. Authoritarian regimes have struggled with this issue for centuries

>>17975448
I don't know. Even Jim crow laws were mostly about leaving blacks to fend for themselves. I can definitely see the south criminalizing whites teaching blacks but not blacks teaching blacks.

Stonewall Jackson taught blacks to read at Sunday school, but he was a Presbyterian and they're a bit unhinged politically

>>17970509 (OP)
Because h*miltonians needed someyhing to grift on while capitalism obsoleted slavery

>>17975240
enslaving people isn't strength.