Thread 17973409

>>17973409 (OP)
well no because those things are super violent compared to a cow

>>17973409 (OP)
>Large scale animal husbandry didn't occur in pre-Columbian America

>>17973409 (OP)
>>17973440

>>17973415
That must be why bison farms are currently impossible and we only have cows now.

>>17973409 (OP)
Is it true that they ate all the horses?

>>17973439
Bison are much more aggressive and skittish than the aurochs is recorded to have been

>>17973469
currently with modern tech, resources and access to vehicles and horses, and even them they aren't a domesticated species

>>17973470
It's true that horses, zebra, and camels evolved in the Americas but went extinct there after humans showed up.

>>17973471
May I borrow your time machine?

>>17973409 (OP)
>>17973415
>>17973439

I think the rut of it is they just didn't possess the cultural basis to generate the idea nor the economic desire to facilitate domesticating cattle. There were tons of Bison. There were literally anywhere from 60 to 80 million Bison living, herding, in the interior of the United States and Canada in an area that wasn't any good for how they farmed, wasn't connected to the Mississippi or Great Lake routes, and far out of the way for any indigenous population to have any relationship with them besides hunting them en masse every once or twice a year. It's not like natives didn't domesticate animals: llamas, turkeys, ducks, geese, guinea pigs, capybaras, dogs, etc.

Somebody can correct me, but I think in places like Europe, Northern Africa, and parts of Asia, the enormous bountiful animals that defined caveman times ended in the old world after the ice age ended. These conditions, combined perhaps with old world agricultural systems, may have created a "crunch" for some cultures to preserve the stocks of depleting animals that were important to them like cattle, pigs, caribou, sheep, and goats. I think "Against The Grain" cited historical sites in North Africa and Eastern-Europe where these cultures had stopped eating antelope (because there maybe was no more) and began to depend more and more on sheep/goats they would keep in caves. Africans seemed to have started doing a similar thing with cattle after the end of their green period.

>>17973515
I mean, in 1493 it's written that Bison population numbers exploded after the discovery of America because of the mass die-offs due to plagues.

>>17973480
Sure, bison farms are impossible and there is absolutely no historical record of bison farms from pretty much the exact moment european settlers arrived with their animal husbandry skills.

>>17973524
Not until the late 19th century anyway. And they are still not domesticated. They're kind of just kept in enclosures at arms lenght.

>>17973439
Aurochs are even more aggressive

>>17973482
>>17973470

It could have been more of a 60/40 split between pressure from human hunting and climate-change. The animals could adapt to one or the other, but not both.
The people that came over from the Bering Strait were a caribou and mammoth hunting culture and If we look at Paleo-Indian dumps and butcher sites their (seemingly) preferred prey reflects that: were bison, caribou, elk, and mammoths & mastodons, and then a bunch of other miscellaneous animals. I say this because a lot of animals we have minimal or zero evidence of them hunting or eating also died out like tapirs, peccary, taiga, camels, also died out.

>>17973538
>They're kind of just kept in enclosures
That is what domestication means, if you can force the animal in captivity and get them to breed in captivity, you have a new domesticated livestock animal.

>>17973515
no horses, prairie indios used dogs as burden animal tho
also the
>60 to 80 million Bison
was fairly recent phenomena caused by removing indios as key species and their population collapse

Your indians were just retards, deal with it

>>17973719
>thinks Bison are easy to control.
Dumbass.

>>17973612
>That is what domestication means
No it doesn't it means you have some form of co trol at best but those animals can wreck your sbit at any moment. That's why people who have them are either SUPER cautious or breed them with cows so they are more manageable

>>17973728
>it means you have some form of co trol
Yeah keeping them in captivity, making them breed, then eating the parents, then repeating the process for generations is definitely a high level of control.

>people who have them
I accept your concession, there are people who have herds of them and know how to deal with them, so they have been domesticated by people, by definition.

>>17973732
Cows can be herded and free ranged. Pretty sure bison can not be. At least not as easily. Europeans selectively bred many animals for a long time. Not so with bison. Which probably could be bred into a more manageable animal.

>>17973758
>Cows can be herded and free ranged.
Yea and Native American herded and free ranged bison, they just didn't keep them in captivity, they let them roam and travel freely, then chased them off cliffs when it was time to eat.

>Not so with bison.
Not so with silkworms either, but they can still steal their silk and make them breed if they keep them in captivity just like they do with bison for meat and fur.

>>17973808
Stampeding a wild animal is entirely different from herding them to selective ranges. Sure the Indians could follow thier migration. But didn't have horses or wagons to do so, and other tribes may control their other seasonal grazing territory. You could fence them off. But bison are supposed to be more difficult to fence off than cattle. And then you would need to have hay to feed them with because the bison would eat all the natural grass quickly. Indians did not cultivate hay. Europeans could herd small groups of cows to pasture areas on foot over short distance because of the docility bred into them over many years. Try that with a water buffalo. They could transport them by boat. And had horses to herd them with. Bison could not be herded to specific areas and kept there. They still can't be but for fences. They are not gentle enough to walk with and keep in pens or be milked. They can be hunted and followed, which the Indians did. But without horses.

>>17973808
Also free ranged is when you keep cattle in an area without fences. They either stay there or roam a bit, and are easy enough to herd back where you want them. This can not be done with bison. Not as easily at least.

>>17973951
>Stampeding a wild animal is entirely different from herding them to selective ranges.
Not when you are specifically "stampeding" them to selective ranges.

>Sure the Indians could follow thier migration.
Yes and they did it to the point that bison was their primary food source.

>Indians did not cultivate hay.
No, they cultivated bison by living like nomads.

>Bison could not be herded to specific areas and kept there.
Except of course when, like I mentioned, they would just herd them off cliffs and keep them there until they could cut them up, dry them out, and eat them.

>They are not gentle enough to walk with and keep in pens or be milked.
They didn't need to be.

>They can be hunted and followed
And herded and run off cliffs until you are ready to use them.

>But without horses.
They didn't need horses, bison were still their primary food source for many generations without them, fire was often more helpful in herding them than fences.

>>17973958
Its exactly what they did with them, though, they let them run around the great plains and range freely without fencing them in and then when they wanted to start processing meat, they would herd them over cliffs and keep them there until they could process the meat and fur.

>>17973966
Do any of the the practices you're describing fall under the category of animal husbandry?

>>17973971
Yes, herd management is animal husbandry by definition, you are confusing domestication of animals with taming animals since you keep being obsessed with the animals being gentle and easy to manipulate instead of them being used for agricultural purposes.

>>17973980
No, you're just wrong. Domesticated animals are genetically different from thier wild counterparts. By definition. Hunting animals is not husbandry just because they are in a herd. It's just hunting a spooked herd animal. It's not the same thing as herding. Well, I suppose you could call it herding technically. Bison are still as wild as they were many years ago. Being inside a fence does not mean domesticated. Lions are not domesticated because they are behind bars.
Just wrong all the way around. Any further comment made by me will just be derision. For i see you are just here to argue in bad faith. If you want to prove me wrong post definitions here.

>>17973739
guns,germs, and steelfags HATE him

>>17973996
>Being inside a fence does not mean domesticated
Being used for agricultural purposed means it is domesticated and if you have fenced them in and learned to breed them, you have domesticate them.

>>17974039
>hurr durr i am aggresively ignorant i win :^)
Twitter is that way

bison are migratory animals who don't stay in one location year round as cows do that is one reason they're hard to control

>>17974122
This discussion is going to go in torturous circles if the leftisch side can't accept that given enough time and population, they would've been domesticated. Biology is not the limiting factor here. Of course, we're only talking about this because the rightisch side wants to make an equally wrong point, they should accept that natives didn't have enough population or ironically cultural diversity to pull off what eurasia did.

>>17973612
>That is what domestication means
cool we have domestic lions then. when I can pick one up? what about the domestic dolphins, can I order one to put in my pool?

People have no sense of scale. Everyone chimped around roughly the same for almost a million years as predominantly cro magnons, that's 100x longer than civilization. Now you want to criticize indios and asians for being a few centuries or millennia on the wrong side of the fence? It's a complete coincidence. At least Africa has a fundamentally different way of life to criticize, but other civilizations could easily have resulted in modernity instead of ours.

>>17973409 (OP)
Non whites were too stupid to domesticated animals. All else is lies and cope.

>>17973415
There are two subspecies of the north american bison, a large dangerous one like you see around Yellowstone and a more docile smaller one and it is the smaller ones you see being raised by ranchers

>>17973440
OP btfo

>>17973562
These animals are rare and only live in isolated remote areas high up in the rocky mountains.

>>17973471
No, they arent, we have accounts of Auroch dating back to the Iron Age and medieval and early modern accounts, Auroch are far far more aggressive than Bison and were a notorious pest for farmers in the way Bison werent. Auroch were hunted by the nobility because it was the only type of animal that posed a real threat to the Hunter, they said this and they said this while also hunting wolves and bears, and Bison attack fewer people than wolves and bears.

Youre making up excuses to avoid the obvious conclusion.
proto-Europeans (early Anatolians) were braver, stronger, and smarter, that is why they domesticated animals like the Auroch.

Yeah, White people are just better, cry about it.

>>17973409 (OP)
Bison weren't domesticated for two main reasons.
1. There were so many of them there was no need to.
2. Compared to the Cow and it's wild ancestor Aurochs, Bison milk production doesn't even compare.

The Amerindians were fully capable of doing domestication. They *invented* corn, which has always been a "Genetically Modified Organism" by the way.
Pic related is literally the greatest feat of engineering in human history.

>>17974395
>>17974263
t. Sandeep

First of all, absolutely no one who has physically interacted with a Bison would ever compare it to a cow. I really cannot put into words how absurdly strong these creatures are, its like a robot wearing pelts, it genuinely feels like theres solid steel under their skin. A bison does what it fucking wants when it wants to. You cant really "tame" bison, you can befriend them, maybe maintain some level of mutual respect, but they will never have the same respect, obedience, or affection for you a cow will, you cant push them around the same way. No aurochs don't compare at all.

Second of all hundreds of thousands of people based their livelihood around living around bison and surviving off of them based on deeply understanding their behavior and lifestyle, they spent nearly their entire lives in close proximity to bison, if thats not animal husbandry i dont know what is.

And third, there was plenty of animal husbandry, their animals just werent as useful and valuable as ours. They kept turkeys, guinea pigs, ducks, hogs, multiple breeds of dog, iguanas, llamas, alpacas, sometimes deer, they just didn't dominate agriculture because they werent amazing animals, especially because their plant based agriculture was FANTASTIC. The Inca for example basically eliminated hunger in their 12 million person empire, and the 90-200,000 person aztec city of tenochtitlan was able to be completely self sufficient from floating farms build on and around entire artificial islands.

>>17974471
it's just like zebras. if you interacted with them IRL they're not the same thing as a horse, no not at all. enjoy the pirate hook where your right hand used to be.

>white people are just better
You're not white and you never will be lmao. Either a turkroach a latam or an indian.

>>17974471
bison evolved when North America still had Pleistocene megafauna which are gone now but evolution hasn't caught up to them. they're built like tanks to stand up to the cave lion, Smilodon, and other such creatures.

>>17974471
The cow goes where the human sends it, the bison makes the decision where to go and what to do

Bison ranching involves putting them in enclosures more comparable to the security fences around USP Florence ADMAX than your average cow pasture. Razor wire and electric fences are absolutely mandatory to keep these living battle tanks contained.

>>17974517
Whites spent thousands of years selectively breeding aurochs into modern cows. The same could have been done with bison, but non whites were too stupid to even consider it.

>>17973415
Your argument is invalid.

>>17974539
>thinking modern farming where you can ride around on a big loud mechanical monster and use guns and cattle prods to intimidate them(and its still difficult despite this) means anything

You very obviously know fuckall about both modern and ancient animal husbandry. Fences like that only exist to mark the borders of huge roaming areas and mildly inconvenience them, if the bison feels like tearing through that fence it'll do it without a second thought. Frankly you're embarrassing yourself.

>>17974533
ancient men put them in a pit.

>>17974422
another attempt to push "only indians push White nationalist talking points"
indians hate White people.
>>17974567
continue coping.
>what if the bison escape
yeah what if? You go get them back when they calm down after wandering around a few hours.
You do realize modern cows get out all the time right?
you just go and retrieve them
>what if they dont want to be returned to the enclosure
you entice them with food after theyve calmed down.
I think because youre a shitlib you dont understand animals arent people and do not actually care about "freedom" or whatever.

>>17974537
to selectively breed animals you need to pen up and keep wild ones. That's not happening with bison, especially thousands of years ago.
>>17974581
>you entice them with food after theyve calmed down.
Lmao yeah you know NOTHING about bison or ranching. Sure the 2000lb mountain of muscle and rage will just forget its able to escape and go back to normal life the way an animal thats been domesticated for thousands of years will.

Btw natives independently invented agriculture, writing, drama & poetry, astronomy, census taking and extensive recordkeeping, advances construction, alcohol, advanced medicine, sewage, running water, aqueducts, large scale military strategy and tactics, calendars, canals, state level education, dams, embalming, nixtamilization, democracy and council rule, organized slavery, paper, megastructure construction, planned cities, and plumbing independently with no outside influence while europeans had to have those things taught to them by others :) and Spanish explorers were constantly remarking on how much nicer and larger native cities were than euro ones.

Really though its not a competition and no one sees it as one but you and people like you, losers who needs to claim the achievements of an entire race as your own since you have nothing to be proud of yourselves.

>>17973469
we have bison farms in Utah

>>17974602
I have been to a Bison ranch and worked on ranches all over the Western US.
>will just forget
What the fuck is wrong with you?
ALL Bovids save for those in the zoo are kept in enclosures they can get out of.
99/100 times they stay in their enclosure because they have everything they need there.
What ranch did you work on? name it.
>agriculture
later than everyone else
>writing
no alphabet
>drama and poetry
Neanderthals had this
>advanced medicine
no, they did not develop penicillin.
>sewage
sewage isnt an invention but you mean sewer systems, which no they did not invent.
>running water
this is a naturally occurring phenomena.
>large scale
What do you mean large scale? They never exceeded the city state level.
>plumbing
They didnt.
>Europeans had to have those taught
Actually Europeans invented all of those independently and there is a high probably they carried them to the Americas as Amerindians have been found with Mycenaean admixture.

>Spanish explorers were constantly remarking
They werent.
>its not a competition
It is because these people when we found them hadnt even developed ironworking, something nigs had.
They were that retarded.
>you like your race because youre a loser
cope and seethe, every great man of history was proud of his people.

>>17974471
It just so happened to be that Eurasian bovids evolved in a relatively predator-free continent and were not as strong or dangerous as bison or African bovids.

>>17974843
Natives north of meso America were an entire civilization level lower and this fact makes them seethe, even their largest cities were huts with a tiny fence around them, they then claim they house hundreds of thousands in these villages.
Maybe if there were more buffalo by the Aztecs and Mayans, they would have been domesticated as some fauna was by the Incans but when all you have are tribals there was no shot.

>>17974844
>predator free
>Sabretooths
>wooly rhino
>cave bear
>European lion
>largest leopards ever found
>neanderthals
wow, predator free LOL

Auroch descriptions record them behaving like how people describe modern Rhinos.
They were vastly more aggressive than Bison.

Europeans domesticated them because Europeans are just better people.
Europeans are beautiful not because of subjective standards, erections dont recognize subjective standards. Europeans are beautiful because they are superior.

>>17974844
a significant difference is that much of the Eurasian steppe is a vast flat plain that had few places for ambush predators to hide in unlike the African savannah

>>17974843
>I have been to a Bison ranch and worked on ranches all over the Western US.
Either you're lying or you were carrying things around and shovelling shit without really learning anything
>later than everyone else
Yeah they invented it independently in the middle of nowhere with more complex crops
>no alphabet
Really splitting hairs there and arguably untrue
>no, they did not develop penicillin.
Penicillin was invented in 1928 after nearly 400 years of medicines from all over the world intermingling...i dont even know why im responding to you at this point this is such an insanely retarded thing to say, it just makes me feel smart and superior to talk down to you
>sewage isnt an invention but you mean sewer systems, which no they did not invent.
You know if you don't know what you're talking about you can just keep your mouth shut. We have extensive sources by both spanish explorers and natives about their complex sewer systems and incredibly clean cities.
>this is a naturally occurring phenomena.
im starting to think you're legit like 12 years old
>What do you mean large scale? They never exceeded the city state level.
how the fuck do you not know about the AZTEC AND INCAN EMPIRES? And thats just two. Fucking baffling how retarded and uninformed you are
>They didnt.
5 seconds on google dude

>>17973739
I could put a leash and a harness on your mother, is she a domesticated species?

>>17974854
>Europeans domesticated them because Europeans are just better people.

Europeans didn't domesticate them, you stupid monkey. The only animals Europeans domesticated themselves are reindeer, rabbits, hedgehogs, and rats. Aurochs were domesticated in three places: West Asia, Northeast Africa, and South Asia.

>>17974843
>>17974865
>Actually Europeans invented all of those independently
They didnt
>and there is a high probably they carried them to the Americas as Amerindians have been found with Mycenaean admixture.
I have heard nothing about this and im pretty sure you're just misremembering things about the widely dismissed olmec phoenecian connection hypothesis.
>They werent.
Having actually red first hand accounts by the conquistadors and early governors, they were. Once again 5 seconds on google.
>It is because these people when we found them hadnt even developed ironworking, something nigs had.
Nigs were connected to european and middle eastern civilization.
>cope and seethe, every great man of history was proud of his people.
You'll never even be an average man.
>>17974851
Yeah ngl they were pretty primitive overall. The pueblo and mississipi valley pulled off some interesting stuff and were on their way to big things but both collapsed due to shitty american weather cycles. Still though buffalo domestication by primitive people is a retarded idea
>>17974854
>erections dont recognize subjective standards
Do you get hard looking at neolithic venus idols?

Anyway you guys are all absurdly ignorant about even the absolute basics of animal husbandry and american life and civilization and its embarrassing. Do like 30 minutes of research before starting a thread next time.

>>17974843
Tiny city state with a mere 25000 miles of roads and only 10 million people

>>17973415
Are you a pussy?

>>17974602
>That's not happening
Did non whites never think to put rope around the animal's neck in order to tie it to a tree? The whites had no issues doing this with the aurochs, which is objectively an even more powerful and dangerous animal.

>>17974889
Yeah thats pretty pathetic for the year 1500.

>>17975225
>Did non whites never think to put rope around the animal's neck in order to tie it to a tree?
Nobody who ever tried that with a bison lived to tell about it.

>>17974877
Imbecile, West Asia, Northeast Africa, and South Asia are not races.
The people in those regions were proto-European Anatolian and Steppe derived populations.
They werent domesticated in North Africa btw, just West Asia with the Anatolians and right next to the Anatolians in the Indus Valley around the time Western Steppe herders entered the region.
Those were both groups that share more DNA with modern Europeans than with any non-Europeans you dumb animal.

>>17974879
>they didnt
They did.
>ive heard nothing about this
so? Its true regardless of you hearing about it.
>red
ESL
The first hand accounts do not praise the native cities, they say they didnt expect cities in a wild unknown land, not that these cities actually rivaled places like Berlin-Collin, London, or Paris.
>youll never be average
serious projection from the 4' panchito goblino
>venus idols
?????
>youre just ignorant
nope. We know more than you.
If your people werent subhumans, you wouldnt have been conquered militarily by Europeans.
Warfare determines who is superior and Europeans beat everyone by a lot.
And it wasnt even close and it was a small band of Europeans using superior intelligence, organization, cunning, tactics, and sheer BVLL energy to overwhelm your short fat retarded goblinoid ancestros.
You cant even speak your native tongue, thats how thoroughly you were dominated by a collective total of 1500 Iberians.

>>17975279
then why are people able to do it today?
Why are you insisting on Bison being some hyperaggressive megafauna?
They arent, theyre rather docile compared to other megafauna.

Goblinos could not domesticate them because goblinos are 95IQ retards.

>>17975276
Oh really? Is it? is 10 million(low estimate) low? thats not a lot huh? Im sure you're basing this on extensive historical knowledge right, you know a lot about historical population numbers?

It was the 7th most populous state on the planet and made up nearly 5% of the world population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

Larger than Spain, Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, duchy of Moscow, or England.

Christ you people who are so desperate to shit on the Americas are pathetic, you just keep embarrassing yourselves again and again because you're too stupid to do even the most basic research into the subject, or to just do a 5 second google search before you respond. Sub 90IQ behavior.

>>17975301
>They did.
They didnt
>so? Its true regardless of you hearing about it.
Post your sources then
>ESL
damn you caught my minor typo its over for me
>The first hand accounts do not praise the native cities
They do and you're fucking retarded for claiming they don't. I've read them, and anyone can easily look them up for free online and verify what I'm saying is true. You're not gonna magically wipe the mountains of primary source information from my mind.
>serious projection from the 4' panchito goblino
I know all history is just a form of performative larp/power fantasy for you but for us educated >100iq people it isn't. I have zero mexican blood and i've never even been to latin america, I'm just correcting you because you're stupid and wrong.
>?????
You know, those things literally everyone knows about because they taught us about them in middle school? Are you 10?
>nope. We know more than you.
Demonstrably, provably false as this conversation has shown.
>And it wasnt even close and it was a small band of Europeans using superior intelligence, organization, cunning, tactics, and sheer BVLL energy
*and the most devastating plague in history plus over 200,000 native allies
>You cant even speak your native tongue
I speak english just fine larpnigger.

You think people dont notice how you spout more lazy ad hominem attacks the more butthurt you get? You're not gonna distract me or anyone else with your pathetic insults. Once again, you're just embarrassing yourself.

>>17975304
>then why are people able to do it today?
We have machinery. Super reinforced holdings and extremely expensive size holding pens to do so.

>>17975304
>theyre rather docile compared to other megafauna.
jesus christ please just spend like 15 minutes actually reading about bison you have no idea what you're talking about

>>17973739
And yet no one would dare use these for actual labour, transport or letting their children ride one. I've seen a tame one in action. It literally had a fight or flight anxiety response when a short ten year old walked near it while it was behind a pen. Basically ruined the whole planned day for the Birthday event becuase Zip the Zebra went from :
>okay I'll let my owner ride me for today
To.
>come within two meter and you get a kick.
And it was still in that mood until the next afternoon. Who the fuck wants that?

>>17975397
Bougie trophy hunters still get gored/crippled by Cape Buffalo and those bovine are a full foot and 5 inches shorter than Bison. Even domestic cows are super defensive and will charge/chase if they feel threatened or have a calf (their's or not, doesnt matter) nearby.

>>17973409 (OP)
You'll notice that Europeans didn't domesticate the European bison.

>>17975397
please stop posting.
>https://wildlifeinformer.com/are-bison-dangerous/
Bison are docile, they are aggressive when they feel threatened, otherwise they do not exhibit the hyper aggressive behaviors described with Auroch.

>>17975391
Why are people able to do it today without machinery, reinforced buildings and large holding pens? Why are they able to do it with hand built enclosures?

>>17975515
>Bison are docile, they are aggressive when they feel threatened
Not even close.

>>17975515
>they are aggressive when they feel threatened
Like if you were to, hypothetically, throw a rope around them and imprison them and spend a ton of time around them?

>>17975518
bison farming is not done with rustic "hand built" enclosures like cattle ranches of old but with with enclosures build with modern techniques, materials and equipment and they do operate with larger holding pens

>>17975291
>The people in those regions were proto-European Anatolian and Steppe derived populations
no, the domestication of cattle was before the IE expansion and didn't happened in the regions where the ancestors of modern europeans lived at the time

>>17975313
>10m
>no source
>low estimate
cope.
No one is desperate to shit on these monkeys. They were in the Bronze age in the 1500s because they have some of the smallest brains on the planet and literally devolved from kennewick Euroforms into mongoliforms.

>>17975341
you say they didnt when they obviously did because we have the DNA from the places these innovations originated and they share the most DNA with modern Europeans compared to other populations.
>sources
I posted it, check the image.
>they do
no they dont, they do not "praise" them.
What they actually say is they did not expect to find city states in the middle of uncharted jungles beyond the edge of the world.
>mountains of primary sources
post them, you will see exactly what I mean.
>over 200,000 native allies
I like how its always impossible for the Aztecs to have mustered 100,000 men, then lost, so historians assume the number must be smaller because how could a city state muster that number and how could they lose, that would make Europeans look like supermen (they are). but when its native allies bizarrely the native allies manage to reach 200,000 (larger than any known army at the time save for the largest land empires in history (200,000 raised by city states btw) and never in one place).

There was no vast horde of native allies, it was the Europeans doing the heavy lifting because the obvious is true, Europeans are just superior.
Keep coping.

>>17975530
>>17975545
How about you read what park rangers and zoologists say about Bisonic behavior.
They are FAR less aggressive than Auroch.
They werent domesticated because there were no high IQ robust Cro-Magnon derived BVLLs around.

>>17975640
Nope. The domestication of Zebu occurred after the Indo Europeans arrived in the Indus valley.
The domestication of cattle occurred in a region inhabited by Archaic Anatolians whos closest living relatives are in Sardinia and Italy.
>>17975622
There is no uniform method of "bison farming" ranching*.

>>17975397
>Buffalo is literally impossible because reasons
bullshit. non whites were just too retarded to do it

>>17973415
Yet in 300 years of European contact Bison are ranched and even ridden.

>>17975659
>I posted it, check the image.
There's no source in that image retard. Do you just automatically believe any image you see online?
>no they dont
Once again they do, I've literally seen the primary sources myself, read them or stfu.
>they did not expect to find city states in the middle of uncharted jungles beyond the edge of the world.
>jungles
Holy shit you're stupid
>post them
The conquest of new Spain by Bernal Diaz, cartaz del relacion by Hernan Cortez, absolute basics anyone discussing this shit should be knowledgeable about. You're never going to read them though because you're too adhd so I guess I'll never be able to convince you of these easily verifiable objective facts.
>how could a city state muster that number
It wasn't a city state
>larger than any known army at the time save for the largest land empires in history
Yes
>200,000 raised by city states btw
No.

Idk why you're so hooked on this city state line, a 5 second Google search will show you that the Aztecs controlled 4-5 HUNDRED cities.

>>17974879
I had never realized this image was such a gorgeous watercolor.
>>17975301
This model seems really really shitty. How can Native Americans have 0 Tianyuan.
Also:
1: Anatolian HG and Natufians does not Mycenean DNA make.
2: The Cree are pretty unremarkable as far as eastern woodland Indians go. Yeah sure they participated in the North American plant domestication event, whoopie. but like, meh? That's normal for the region. It's the argument you think it is.

>>17975986
it's not*

>>17975652
>>17975313

It was probably way more than 10 million by the way. Andean civilization was very old and very developed by the time the Incas came around. The mountains were highly populated

>>17975301
>cree
>crete
Cretan bvlls took up the copper mining in North America after the R1b ANE giant bvlls died out

OP is the Zebraspammer. He's a self-hating shitskin who posts these threads to prove that shitskins were dumb because they couldn't domesticate X dangerous animals. He's not here to discuss biology nor willing to learn, he's here to post /pol/shit.

Pens at modern bison farms are built out of highway crash guardrails. Those fuckers will bulldoze through barbed wire like cobwebs. Why would natives bother with building some kind of bison proof wooden palisade (not enough wood on the plains anyway) when there’s free range protein on the hoof they can kill at any time, even before horses and firearms.

>>17975652
The sources are at the bottom of the article, like they always are. You'd know this if you'd ever done serious research in your life.
>>17976362
Yeah civilization in the Andes is literally older than Egypt, and while their area wasn't particularly nice or fertile, or warm, or stable lmao, corn and potatoes are god tier civilization building superfoods. The Inca had basically eliminated hunger in their empire before the arrival of the Spanish.

People just don't seem to understand how good the american civilizations were at agriculture and how insane their population sizes were, because in the first century after spanish contact the populations of the Inca and mesoamerican lands dropped NINETY TO NINETY FIVE PERCEN thanks to plagues, plus the super kind and charitable spanish liberators intentionally spreading the disease during the conquests, then after taking over taking their food and medicine and forcing them to work as slaves, further encouraging the spread and causing uncountable deaths from hard labour.

A lot of bizarre cope in this thread, modern cattle had to be domesticated from animals of similar size and demeanor to Bison. They were perfectly suitable for domestication.
It's probably just that the Americas lacked a good horse/camel since they went extinct, and animals like that make a lot of other things much easier.

>>17977246
>modern cattle had to be domesticated from animals of similar size and demeanor to Bison.
false in both accounts

i think wipipo ate just superior to us shitskins and niggers 2bh

>>17977246
they were not similar in size and demeanor, and there was far more cause to domesticate them instead of bison because bison can just be casually plucked out of their city sized herds.

Test

>>17975515
Have you ever seen a bison up close? Do you know what they consider a threat? I know a girl who got launched by a headbutt from one because she made the mistake of stepping on a twig within earshot of one. Putting a rope around it and dragging it to a cage would definitely excite it. We need modern materials to keep bison in pens. The Indians didnt need to because they had bison herds with more individuals than most cities just wandering freely on the plains. We had to breed them in captivity because our ancestors killed most of the buffalo for the purposes of killing the native food supply.

The revisionists here seem to hate when I post pictures of bison farms.

>>17977560
I don't think you know what revisionist means esl kun, and they hate it because you're ignorantly posting only a small part of a big picture. Its like me posting some abandoned house full of black mold and saying "this is what euro cities are like".

Modern day bison farming is possible because of shitloads of advanced machines, complex materials, and organized advanced civilization all around to help out. People in the past couldn't build jet engines it doesn't mean they were stupid, it just wasn't feasible or practical at the time.

If it's simply a matter of big euro brain, then why didn't early europeans domesticate european bison, despite them being smaller and more docile than american ones?

Also we all noticed how you stopped replying and hid after these >>17975934 >>17975968

>>17973409 (OP)
They actually had two of them

>>17977604
You people are so retarded its unreal

>>17977609
Domestication in an arctic climate isn't unheard of

>>17977616
I don't think you understand HOW arctic we're talking here, the southernmost parts of this range are at about the same latitudes as the northernmost parts of scandinavia but without the geothermal activity and warming gulf stream. Its an absolute wasteland AT BEST where its not completely covered by ice and darkness. Natives hoard driftwood because not even trees survive in most of that range. Also not all animals are equal, natural temperament matters and reindeer are not the same. The Scandis also made a major effort to domesticate moose and it failed miserably.

They didnt domesticate bison,because they preferred to cultivate the landscape they were living on, so it would produce more forage for game and vegetation that would yield fruit, nuts, seed, medicine and materials.
Why capture and deal with a dangerous animal if you can just promote pasture and go kill one of the very abundant game animals if you need meat?

>>17977580
Those anons are not required nor expected of by any rational person to continue to waste their time on retards like you when they already debunked your initial claim. You are only proving that you're not worthy of anyones time, white or otherwise when your point changes on a whim

>>17977631
>Natives hoard driftwood because not even trees survive in most of that range.
That's called "tundra" and it is the biome of Eurasias entire northern coastline. But historically the muskox wasn't even limited to this area, their historical range covered most of Alaska and Canadas three territories, but they were hunted to local extinction for their prized fur.
They have also been successfully introduced to national parks that are far south of the Arctic circle.
>Also not all animals are equal, natural temperament matters and reindeer are not the same
Muskox have a fairly calm temperament though, especially compared to Bison, the topic of this thread.
And when we're on the topic of reindeer, there are indigenous subspecies of reindeer in North America which the natives failed to domesticate.
>The Scandis also made a major effort to domesticate moose and it failed miserably.
They considered it, they never actually tried. The Soviets did try though, and it has yielded results.

>>17977677
>debunked your initial claim
Oh really? thats crazy, should be easy to just show me where that happened then. Seems to me like they just spouted made up bullshit and got repeatedly btfo by cited sources but maybe if you act stubborn enough you'll manage to magically convince people to ignore the facts
>>17977688
>That's called "tundra" and it is the biome of Eurasias entire northern coastline.
Dude the real world isn't a videogame, "biomes" are major generalizations and these places are not the same, ESPECIALLY scandinavia.
>their historical range covered most of Alaska and Canadas three territories
So more frozen bumfuck?
>Muskox have a fairly calm temperament though
And they obsessively dig and destroy things, not great for keeping in an enclosure near your house.
>there are indigenous subspecies of reindeer in North America which the natives failed to domesticate.
Fair I suppose but scandis were taught about domestication when societies that developed in nearby warmer climates spread out and influenced them, that never happened with canadian natives as they were a billion miles away from the nearest cradle of civilization in mexico. Domestication needs to start with something similar yet simple to inspire further attempts
>they never actually tried
Depends on your definition I guess?
>The Soviets did try though, and it has yielded results.
Not really comparable to ancient peoples, though i'll concede the scandinavian effort probably isnt either

>>17977727
>Dude the real world isn't a videogame, "biomes" are major generalizations and these places are not the same, ESPECIALLY scandinavia.
Des Moines, Iowa and Rome are both 41N. Don't get me started on the difference between a typical winter in Iowa and one in central Italy.

>>17977764
latitude affects summer temperatures more than winter ones.

>>17977727
>Dude the real world isn't a videogame
The details you gave is that the area is covered by ice and darkness, and that plants can't grow. Darkness depends entirely on how far north you are, so of course Eurasian regions on the same latitudes have the same darkness, and plants inability to grow is the defining characteristic of tundra. I guess maybe they have more icebergs though, but these terrestial and grass-eating mammals don't live on icebergs.
>And they obsessively dig and destroy things
In the hunt for food under the snow, they aren't pigs.
>scandis were taught about domestication when societies that developed in nearby warmer climates spread out and influenced them, that never happened with canadian natives as they were a billion miles away
Reindeer herding actually started in arctic Russia, where the Sami were originally from, which is alot more isolated than Scandinavia, although admittedly alot less so than Canada.
>Depends on your definition I guess?
No, it is not a question of definition. You're regurgitating a myth that the Swedish army once tried to create moose cavalry, a myth that is completely unsupported by contemporary sources. What is supported by contemporary sources is only that they thought about it, and thinking is very different from doing.

>>17977776
>plants inability to grow is the defining characteristic of tundra
Thats like saying "ice is a defining characteristic of cold climates so a place thats 30F is basically the same as a place thats -30F"
>In the hunt for food under the snow, they aren't pigs.
Yeah, thats the purpose of the digging instinct. They still have a major digging and destroying instinct that doesnt change that.
>Reindeer herding actually started in arctic Russia, where the Sami were originally from, which is alot more isolated than Scandinavia, although admittedly alot less so than Canada.
And it started about 2000 years ago, meaning thousands of years for their neighboring countries to come and teach it to them after they themselves learned about herding.

Civilization and development is about cooperation and shared ideas, if ideas just magically came out a vacuum all the time then we'd have had global civilization tens of thousands of years earlier.

>>17977780
>Thats like saying "ice is a defining characteristic of cold climates so a place thats 30F is basically the same as a place thats -30F"
Stop claiming "there are differences and they matter" without specifying what those differences are and how they matter.
>They still have a major digging and destroying instinct that doesnt change that.
They purposefully flock to the areas with the LEAST snow so as to NOT have to dig. It is a survival instinct, not a compulsion.

Bison can make a six-foot vertical jump, it's impressive to see. I helped at a bison roundup once when I worked in a national park, they were huge assholes and a pain in the ass once they got put into a corral.

>>17977764
how's summer weather though?

>>17973409 (OP)
Why the fuck would you want to marry a cow

>nooo you don't get it they are super aggressive, you would never ever ever domesticate them in trillion years!!
meanwhile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxDlsfpBKqA

>>17973409 (OP)
cows are disgusting fucking animals. you think the mesoamericans had their minds blown when they saw cows for the first time? they hated these things, wandering around trampling crops and polluting the water supplies, they were a public menace from the filthy old-worlders.

injuns had a general understanding that domesticating crops were the more divine and cerebral way to go. Let the buffalo stampede majestically around the northern wastes, only a eurotard would be so depraved as to find something like a cow desirable. Eurotards couldn't domesticate ANYTHING, just look at a list of domesticated new-world crops, the list is THIS LONG (spans arms out for visual reference). What crops did eurotards ever domesticate? Fucking nothing. NOTHING.

>>17979531
>What crops did eurotards ever domesticate? Fucking nothing. NOTHING.
What plants native to Europe do you consider to have been worthwhile for agriculture, but Europeans failed to domesticate?

>>17979547
how the fuck am I supposed to know? you think I can look at something like the eurofag equivalent of teosinte and say "ah yes, why didn't they use THIS to invent euro-maize", is that what I'm supposed to do? I don't have the genius to see the potential eurotards squandered, I'm just comparing the two lists of domesticated crops that I see, eurofags have zero, and mesoamericans have dozens. I'm sure eurotards could have come up with something if they had the brains for it, alas.

then I see the stumbling, pathetic glassy eyed cows and think "yeah the mesofags were smart to avoid this depravity, plants are way smarter." Seriously, are you proud of this bloated, clumsy public nuisance? It's a biological insult, a walking ecological disaster. disgusting.

>>17979598
You couldn't find any, because there aren't any.
Europe is a poor location for agriculture and always has been especially in regards to local native biodiversity. Any belief you have to the contrary is because of the skill of European farmers to make the most out of what they had imported from a much warmer climate.

>>17979615
I didn't look you retard, you're not just gonna find crops lying around waiting to be domesticated. it's like art. you have to invent something like maize, and it takes a spark of genius I don't have to do that.

the best I can do is compare portfolios, and the eurotards turned in an empty assignment covered in cow-shit

>>17979531
>>17979547
>>17979598
>>17979615
>>17979630
1 word, berries. Northern Eurasia and North America are full of them, but there aren't that many of them in the south.
Blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, lingonberries, strawberries, as long as it's a berry odds are they were first cultivated by Europeans.

>>17979630
Yes you did and you didn't find anything. You know I'm right and that Europe used everything available to them, they just had less because Europe lacks biodiversity due to its latitude as well as being much smaller than the Americas.

>>17979652
Europeans did not fail to domesticate them though.

>>17979665
Yes, that's my point.

>>17979677
OK. There's also wild mustard grass that was cultivated into different varieties by Europeans such as broccoli and cabbage.
There were some plants worth eating in Europe and they were domesticated.
My point was that a comparison between crops domesticated in the Americas and in Europe is due to fewer suitable crops in Europe, not a failure of Europeans to recognize and cultivate potential crops.

>>17979531
>What crops did eurotards ever domesticate? Fucking nothing. NOTHING.
Several berries and roots were domesticated in europe and many more cultivars were developed there. I should also mention that 6k years ago PIE were still in the steppe.