Thread 17981353

There's a lot of there is a lot of insecurity here about Mesoamerican conquests. I know it hurts, right? The Mayan pyramids were some of the tallest structures in the world when they were built in the Classical period. The number of structures per square kilometer in Mesoamerica was greater than most of the European territory, even in places like today. The "impressive" European cathedrals were only built centuries later, when the Mayan civilization had already collapsed. If the Mayans hadn't suffered this collapse, they would probably have built even larger structures. It's a fact that they were at an impressive level for their timethe Aztecs and were masters of impressive botanical understanding, the most advanced on the planet, including Europe. And, by the way, they had absurdly sophisticated bureaucratic systems, with things like mandatory public education, which many "civilized" people of the time couldn't even dream of, just like in the cold lands that lived off plunder throughout their history.

Who needs bronze when you have hieroglyphics and precise calendars, right? They themselves stated how superior and impressive the cities were. I think it's cool how you drool over "Indo-Europeans" who were shepherds using stone tools and bone necklaces while at the same time you despise and try with all your might to diminish the magnificent Mesoamerican achievements. You lost. Copper was used by Native Americans as early as 8000 BC

>You lost.
You're right, truly, the Mesoamerican Civilizations ru- ah, wait, no, they don't, they all died out. All of them.

Huh.

Guess they're not so superior after all, huh?

Highest civilizational potential.

>You are barbaric!!
>Human sacrifice!
>Hey, they killed people every day
Eurocopers, what now?

Does anyone hate how they just destroy all of the mesocities
Like couldn't they at least save some of the ruins instead of building churches and stuff on top

>>17981389
True, they can no longer use this argument.
The vast majority *2/3
of the sacrifices were prisoners of war, who would die on the battlefield if not in the pyramid.

>>17981397
No, because that was literally the retroactive justification for the slaughter.

As expected, no answers
Why? Afraid to debate? Isn't the massacre in other threads enough?

>>17981353 (OP)
I emphasize

is there like a single non-european language left in the entire new world? I dont mean like some jungle-gobbledygook a few injuns here and there still speak but like a proper language used by a whole nation first and foremost

>>17981485
Answer the arguments

>>17981353 (OP)
Bump

>>17981487
He can't

>>17981353 (OP)
Considering the overall primitivity if their technology(a water mill - dotting the English countryside even in 11th century) would probably make their minds blow up in awe, they weren't.
Just like many other neolithic societies thet had a cyclical overflow of manpower which they used to build megalithic structures. Wow so advanced omg omg epic.

At least it's nice to know at least one sudaca shitposter stoped copying with le spanish supremacy threads and accepted being an injun. It's some form of growing up

Tenochtitlan was at best like 1.5 square miles of nothing but channels of water dug through mud in the bottom of a drained lake where they used their own feces as fertilizer and shit and pissed in the same water they drank from

>>17981353 (OP)
>how you drool over "Indo-Europeans"
seething haplojeet detected

Eurasia had more domesticable animals such as sheep, which leads to larger draft power, more transport, and immunity to more diseases.

>>17981936
Mesoamericans had impressive hydraulic systems, with dams, reservoirs, and pressurized ceramic aqueducts, as well as running water in some palaces. However, it's intriguing to note that, despite their advanced knowledge of mathematics and volume, they don't seem to have used water to power machines or harness steam power, as the Romans did
Loser

>>17982037
all the waterworks nonsense is cope because they were literally drinking shit water

>>17982036
And unfortunately, 2/3 of them couldn't build massive structures for some reason

>>17982040
>nonsense
Isn't even an argument.
You couldn't understand my point, isn't? Tard, go to sleep and stop arguing things that you have no clue.

>>17982050
the aztec aqueduct thing is completely made up, nobody ever talked about an aqueduct

>>17982056
>a dam/reservoir is an aqueduct
no, sorry

>>17982058
Read the pic again
Mesoamericans were comparable to Europeans in terms of metallurgy and achievements in engineering, architecture, mathematics, and military complexity. in water management and city size, they were closer to Classical Antiquity, leaning more toward the Greeks than the Romans. You lost, again.
they were at the global forefront of sanitation, medicine, and botanical science, even into the sixteenth century. Better than barbarope, An impressive civilization in many respects.

>>17982066
the only american civilization to make true bronze were the inca and they were just at the experimental level before getting conquered

>>17982069
Cope

>>17982447
Proper bronze is copper tin alloy. This shows a clear understanding by the people making the bronze that tin makes the bronze better. Many people around the world accidentally mined copper with arsenic in it. When this is alloyed it makes a similar bronze as tin copper.

But this is not bronze age technology, it's Chalcolithic tech. The problem with this level of tech is you can't tell if they knew they were mining arsenic rich copper on purpose or not, because it's naturally occuring. So it's pretty hard to tell if they were a stone age transitioning culture or a Chalcolithic culture.

This is why the claim that they made bronze, this they were in the bronze age, is fundamentally wrong.

>>17982484
Your changed the subject
It's simply amazing how all these "coincidences" happen. Ruins of the Templo Mayor right in the center of Mexico City? Oh, it must be just a coincidence. Spanish conquistadors, friars, and Aztec nobles all telling the same story? Coincidence, surely. Codices with accurate pictorial representations? Just another coincidence. And workers finding palaces and temples exactly where historical sources say they would be? Pure luck, of course. And earthquakes revealing the outline of Tenochtitlán as an island? Well, that's just geology being... geological. It must really be just a huge coincidence that everything fits together so perfectly.

>>17982547
>pictorial representations
???

You know what's really damning about this picture? How small the "city" is

>>17981353 (OP)
¡VIVA ESPAÑA!

>>17981353 (OP)
it's an anomaly, it's why it's so maddening to study the region

There's things I just like about those guys. I think the elaborate larp rituals of the aztec are just awesome. People don't realize this, but the biggest showey tenochtitlan sacrifices were the culmination of super elaborate ritual larp theatrics, like, you'd have some guy impersonate the God tezcatlipoca for an entire year, he'd larp 24/7 as that God, fucking with people and playing the flute, and got sacrificed after a year of this role-play. And you probably had like two dozen of these impersonators living around your city. It reminds me of Borges "babylon lottery" short story, you just don't get that kind of thing in the old world. I feel like we're missing it in today's society.

you get the sense that this was a culture that admired mastering complexity above all things, and it was probably something inculcated in them at the dawn of their civilization.
>you'd have all these amazing super-elaborate rituals going year round.
>they had all these different literary traditions existing at the same time in the same region, instead of one just taking over like you would expect.
>everyone gets combinatorial names based on numbers and weird day-names.
The entire reality moved like clockwork in mesoamerica, and the real "master of mesoamerica" was who could keep the most plates spinning while they were in charge, not just keeping a stranglehold on the region, but living up to the presentation *jazz hands* standards their whole theory of reality had always demanded of them. The mexica prided themselves on being able to show up in a new region and integrate the traditions of that region into their stack of spinning plates.

I REALLY REALLY like codex style art, it reminds me of modern animation motifs developed in the late 20th century, or modern video game art. I think the aztecs were super ahead of their time with this stuff, and I sometimes fantasize of what aztecs would do with modern animation technology or even flip-books. It was in their murals and they would make amazing turquoise mosaics with the codex style figures. I wish so badly we had a continuous tradition of that all the way up to the present.

There's so much cool stuff the mesoamericans do with pictorial art. When you look at something seemingly banal like a tax record or a census or a lands map, the tlacuillo scribe does all these mezmerizing motifs and little quirks in the drawings where everything they touch is a work of art with its own charm and personality. These motifs are ancient, the trail of footprints thing on maps goes back to teotihuacan and before. The curled angles and codex-style thing goes back to the beginning.

I also like how in mesoamerica the natural rulers and peoples had these epic sagas tracing there history back to some mythical event, like how the codex selden starts 800 years in the past when the original ruler spawned at the local mountain where the kingdom was, and then traces the history all the way up to the present into the colonial era in this crazy complex tapestry of events and locations, the conquest of the region isn't touched upon in the codex selden. You just don't get that kind of thing with most old-world royalty or whatever, at least not in europe.

>>17981371
I wish, but no, there are millions and millions of them shitting up the continent.

>>17982691
>>17982710
now that I think about it, pretty much everything about mesoamerica feels a little bit like a video game. the art, the way of life, the city-state soap opera politics, the city-building style (in anahuac at any rate). It's no wonder autists are super into mesoamerica.

then the old-worlders come in just when things are getting good and the game suddenly wasn't fun anymore and everyone rolled over and died

*coughs*

>>17982600
>>17982053
you can literally see the aqueduct in that drawing at the top, there's even a text annotation that says "Ex isto fluuio Conduxit Aquam in Ciuitatem"

>>17982600
>>17982053
>>17982739
In Roman idiom, conducere aquam commonly means bringing water by conduit, i.e., an aqueduct.
Nota bene: classical spelling is aquaeductus English aqueduct

>>17981485
Paraguay

>>17981353 (OP)
"The pyramids" are the most primitive and unsophisticated grandious building of non-european origin. Litteraly the bunch of slaves just clusters the rock upon each other. What can be so easy in indea and hard at the realisation at the same time? I hardly prefer roman roads, roman dome, roman aqueducs and gothic arches.

>>17981353 (OP)
>this superior civilization was destroyed and routed by a bunch of incels, killers and robbers from Iberia that nobody wanted in their lands
Look if you want to claim to be superior then actually put in the effort to survive and defeat the "inferior" invaders instead of dying to their diseases and getting your females fucked enmasse by them

>>17981485
Nahuatl is slowly coming back

>>17982710
>>17982691
i wonder if bronze age middle east civs were similar to a extent

>>17982720
>and the game suddenly wasn't fun anymore and everyone rolled over and died
>>17982728

>>17982691
Its the mesolarp spammer
Out

>>17983163
There are some Mesoamerican pyramids up to 70 m high

>sacrifices
Years

>>17982739
>Highly stylized fake map of the city
>Used to lie about how advanced mesoamericans were
>There's a little stream of water inexplicably being delivered to the inner city
Hmm

>>17983324
Most of the sacrifices were prisoners of war who would likely die in battle anyway. And there were also volunteers. But let's put things in perspective: you're judging the Aztecs based on standards that don't apply to their context. Meanwhile, history is full of examples of mass religious violence, such as pogroms, crusades, and the burning of people who wouldn't convert. The Aztecs may have been more theatrical in their sacrifices, but they weren't the only ones to kill for religious reasons at that time. Perhaps it's time to look at history with a little more context and less moralistic judgment.
You LOST

>>17983326
>Used to lie about how advanced mesoamericans were
Wtf are you talking about

>>17983335
You are aware they actively lied about how advanced mesoamericans were to get funding

>>17983338
Not happened
Show to us these "lies"

>>17983345
The aqueduct is a lie

While the Mesoamericans and Andeans were building impressive cities amidst the jungle and mountains, the Europeans were still shitting themselves in mud huts and living in precarious conditions. Perhaps European "superiority" was just an illusion created by those who never looked beyond their own walls. Their reaction to the New World may have simply been a reflection of their own insecurity and envy. Who knows? Perhaps history needs to be rewritten with a little more honesty.

>When the Spaniards first arrived in Mexico, natives bearing incense burners were assigned to accompany them wherever they went. The Spaniards thought it was a mark of divine honor. We know from native sources that they found the newcomers smell unbearable.

Eurostinks

>>17983346
This has already been explained here
why do you consider it a lie?

>>17983235
The collapse of the Classic Maya period is a debated topic. Although there was a significant decline in some cities and kingdoms, it is true that many others continued to thrive in the Post-Classic period and even after contact with the Spanish, albeit on a smaller scale. Mayan history is complex and cannot be reduced to a simple collapse. Nice try, but you failed miserably, another defeat

Why does mesolarp try to be intellectual and impartial with his formal and semantic writing? There is clearly a confirmation bias in his posts, today the retard is just making himself sharp with his tongue

Many Catholics insist that their church pioneered public education, but this is simplistic at best and false at worst. Compared to the European states of the time, the Aztec educational system in Tenochtitlán was likely the first public education system in history. it's time to acknowledge the facts without bias, isn't? I know it can hurts...

>>17983360
>maya
>mexico
anon

>>17983350
they were plague maxing

>>17983356
No it hasn't, post a single piece of irrefutable evidence there was an aqueduct. And don't post a picture where the mud huts they were living in look like castles

>>17983382
Seethe

>>17983350
Eurocopers.. not like that

>>17983446
that is what are you doing anon
open your eyes and see

>>17982711
Those are rape babies not the real deal.

>>17981397
Funny story:
In Cusco after the conquest, the Spanish tried to do their usual thing where they tear down native temples and use the materials to build churches, but the Inca temples were so absurdly well crafted they just couldn't break them down. Instead they built on top of them to cover them up. However, all of the Inca architecture was designed with earthquake resistance in mind and the spanish buildings weren't, so after a few years there was a huge earthquake that almost exclusively destroyed spanish buildings and made it an architecturally inca city again.

>>17981944
>>17982040
>drinking shit water
???
They got fresh water imported from aqueducts, and people regularly bought bottled spring water in the markets.

>>17982600
>You know what's really damning about this picture? How small the "city" is
That "map" doesn't even align with known ruins.

>>17983673
Notice how big the city center is and how few rows of houses it has around it. Maybe 3 at max. Now look at how many rows OP has, like 20.

Something ain't right

>>17983732
Tenochtitlan also was originally two large cities that grew into each other overtime, meaning there should be (at least) two large ceremonial town centers

>>17983737
You mean two small islands?

>>17981353 (OP)
>Mayan civilization had already collapsed
That's what happens when you kill off all the white people. Their belief that God will hear you if you sacrifice his people, white people, if both correct and misunderstood. It is not a coincidence that as they were finishing the sacrifices of the last with any white blood that the whites then returned from across the sea to lead them into the next age.

>>17983739
A very large amount of Aztecs settled on the islands all at once since their prophecy told them to. They founded cities on the two largest islands (tenochtitlan and tlateloco) and some smaller settlements on the smaller ones, and over time as artificial islands were created they all merged together.

>>17983745
Reality is, the reconstruction of cities was brutal and systematic. It wasn't about preserving pre-Hispanic architecture, but about imposing their own vision and dominance. And now? We don't see authentic Mesoamerican cities, just ruins and some colonial structures trying to mimic the pre-Hispanic style. It's like their history was erased. And Japan? There, history and culture are preserved with pride. A glaring difference, isn't it?

>>17983762
The Spanish and their allies were more violent while destroying the Aztecs

Here is (I believe) the only photograph of an authentic original macuihuitl. It was misidentified as a samurai weapon, hence the armour, and it was destroyed when the museum caught fire.

>>17983762
See here>>17983365
Out

to put an end to the archeduct issue
Tikal, Palenque, and other Mesoamerican cities had networks of aqueducts, reservoirs, drainage systems, irrigation canals... A true masterpiece of engineering, besides retards like you keep considering they were in the "Stone Age." It's impressive how they managed all this without ever seeing a modern architectural project, isn't it? Who knows, maybe they accidentally reinvented the water wheel.

>>17983746
They didn't make artificial islands, they drained the lake

The Spanish, those saints. They destroyed Tenochtitlán, burned innocents who wouldn't convert, implemented a system of slavery that killed thousands... And they still have the nerve to present themselves as "conquerors" and "civilizers." It's hilarious how they can destroy entire cultures and still get away with condemning "heroes." And let's not forget the pogroms, the religious wars, the witch hunts... They were the true experts in violence and intolerance. An Inquisition? Just a small part of the show. Spain was a true spectacle of blood and fire. And now, they want us to "get over" the violence of the past? Who knows, maybe they'll start apologizing for everything they did.

>>17983789
I knew mesolarp was a leftist faggot

>>17983781
What do you expect to gain from saying nonsensical bullshit like this? Don't you ever feel guilty about making up outright lies? Truly subhuman behavior

>>17983803
Everything you believe about the Aztecs is an exaggeration.
>Aztecs drain the lake with dikes
>Dig trenches through the mud
>Plant things in the mud and use the trenches to float their boats through
>The lower water level and dikes act like a large filter
>Higher quality water flows through their trenches
>They probably drink and cook with it
>You: WHOA COOL THEY BUILT A ROMAN AQUEDUCT AND EVERY HIT WAS ACTUALLY A CASTLE WITH PLUMBING WHOA

>>17983809
Wow fascinating! What are some scholarly credible sources for all this since you're clearly not just making shit up?

>>17983814
There's not a single primary source that supports the existence of an aqueduct

>>17983814
You lost

>>17983819
Again, another just outright lie. Just off the top of my head they're mentioned in The Conquest of New Spain. Also random deflection, come on, where are your sources for the bullshit about no artificial islands? Theres parts of mexico that literally still make them the same way today.

Once again, aren't you ashamed of yourself for lying like this? If your ideology is true(you're very obviously just shitting on the americas because of ideology) then why would you have to lie to support it?
>>17983836
pathetic samefag

>>17983841
If there were source for an aqueduct you would post them. I'm pretty sure this is just spics pointing at the Spanish aqueduct they built for them and saying they built it

>>17983854
>If there were source for an aqueduct you would post them.
i literally just did, The True Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz, the most famous spanish primary source about pre fall tenochtitlan other than Cortez himself.

>>17983861
"system of canals and causeways"
That's not an aqueduct

>>17983865
First of all, he literally describes smashing them to stop water to the city during the siege.

Also:
>“This great city contains many fine and magnificent houses… and it has two aqueducts, made of masonry, which bring the water from a distance of two leagues; one of them is so large that ten horses can go abreast, and the other is smaller. The larger serves when they clean the smaller, and so they are cleaned alternately.” -(Source: Hernán Cortés, Second Letter to Charles V, 1520)
>“From Chapultepec they made an aqueduct of stone, which entered the city by way of the causeway, and supplied the city with fresh water, which is very necessary because the lake is salty. The aqueduct had two pipes, so that when one was being cleaned, the other could carry water.” -Source: Francisco López de Gómara, Historia de la Conquista de México, 1552
>"There are two aqueducts built of masonry which bring water into the city from a distance of two leagues. One of them is so wide that a horseman can ride through it at a gallop." -Bernal Díaz del Castillo, Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España

>>17983882
What the Spanish did was smash the dikes which were holding back the rest of the lake and flooded the islands

>>17983886
They did both of those. Source: I actually fucking read and you don't.
Now quit dodging questions, come on, where are your sources for >>17983809? Or are you going to admit you're just lying and making shit up?

>>17983895
I'll just debunk your sources

>>17983909
alright im done replying to your dumb indian ass

>>17981353 (OP)
This just reads like the type of cope that Indians will make up about the IVC. Why are you guys fundamentally unable to appreciate your history for what it is, and how it achieved successes despite the odds' being stacked against it? Nothing is going to change the fact that the middle east was the first, or that the Mediterranean were the furthest ahead by about 400BC, or that Western Europe pulled ahead by 1300AD, or any other facts of history, but you don't NEED to change them to appreciate your history for what it is. I don't have any illusions about my country's snownigger history, but I can still appreciate it for what it is. Why's that so hard for you?

>>17983917
Cortes first says
>Along one of the causeways that lead into the city are laid two pipes
>water, forming a volume equal in bulk to the human body, is conveyed by one of these pipes, and distributed about the city, where it is used by the inhabitants
he then says
>reservoirs resembling canals are constructed on the bridges through which the fresh water is conveyed
so now there's no pipes
>reservoirs are the length of the bridges
>canoes pass under the bridges on which the reservoirs are placed, when men stationed above fill them with water
no pipes, water's not going into the city and people on boats have to paddle up and get water

>>17983976
Jesus christ, it should be illegal to use an english website if your english is this bad. There's no speaking to you, you literally can't read.

>>17983996
Lacking critical thinking is pretty common with brown people. How come cortez only mentions these great works when he's talking to the king?

>>17983998
>I am fully aware that the account will appear so wonderful as to be deemed scarcely worthy of credit; since even we who have seen these things with our own eyes, are yet so amazed as to be unable to comprehend their reality. But your Majesty may be assured that if there is any fault in my relation, either in regard to the present subject, or to any other matters of which I shall give your Majesty an account, it will arise from too great brevity rather than extravagance or prolixity in the details

>>17983998
Lmao you're in no place to talk about critical thinking.
What, do you think someone was just following him around copying every single thing he ever said or wrote? His notes to the king are what we have and what are archived, and obviously the aqueducts would be a very important thing to mention since they were relevant to the governance of this new province. He's also not even remotely the only primary source mentioning the aqueducts, I literally posted several others.

I'm honestly amazed by your utter lack of shame or dignity. I recognize the way you post from the times you've raided other threads, and you just keep getting completely btfo by cited scholarly sources again and again, but you just keep coming back. Do you have a legit sub 80IQ? If I got explicitly and objectively proven wrong like you i'd just admit I was wrong, or at the very least just quietly leave.

>>17984037
The other person didn't mention aqueducts, he said they had dug canals. Cortes himself also doesn't mention aqueducts when describing the city in his notes

>>17984045
Wait are you actually just replying to posts without reading them? Holy fuck. I wish I knew you irl im sure you're a next level lolcow

>>17984045
Here's what the other person says


I WAS TOLD
>there was an aqueduct on land that delivered the water to and area where canoes could pick it up and deliver it to the city

literally a creek

>>17984060
>cortes mentions they had to deliver fresh water to the city
>his buddy says so too
so cortes lied about the pipes, blatantly, did he lie about the reservoirs? were the only actual reservoirs at the mouths of creeks? I suppose this was the case.

>>17984104
>so cortes lied about the pipes, blatantly
Whats your evidence of this exactly? Why would he do that? And what about shitload of other sources mentioning them?
>>17984060
>literally a creek
A creek made of stone that could be easily emptied to be scrubbed out?

>>17984110
yes a fresh water creek, there were dozens of them flowing into this massive lake they partially drained, that's where they got their water. At least, sometimes. I imagine with relatively little effort they could have built something out away from the bank to hold the water which allowed boats to fill up

>>17984122
You're just so delusional and stubborn its hard to believe. We have dozens of primary sources mentioning large stone aqueducts and pipes, denying their existence is like denying the sky is blue.

>>17984136
If there was plumbing then why were canoes delivering water by hand?

>>17984162
Because well off natives enjoyed drinking bottled spring water, they sold it in the markets.
>“There are also many men who bring water in canoes, which is sold from house to house, because though there is an aqueduct, many prefer to drink the water that comes from a certain spring.” -Hernan Cortez, Second letter to Charles I
>“Although there is an aqueduct that brings good water, there are many canoes that come from a place where there are springs, bringing water which the nobles drink, for they say it is better than that which comes by the aqueduct.” Bernal Diaz, Conquest of New Spain

>>17984180
but they were selling the canoe water in the markets

>>17984188
Yeah, I literally just said that you stupid illiterate faggot.

>>17984196
So when you craft a lie you use real elements, cortes feels compelled to address the fact that canoe water is the main water in the city and is delivered regularly

>>17984180
>because though there is an aqueduct
What aqueduct? I'm beginning to think the letters are fabricated.

>>17984203
Since the natives were pissing and shitting in the water supply it makes sense that nobody wanted to drink it.

>>17984203
>cortes feels compelled to address the fact that canoe water is the main water in the city and is delivered regularly
First of all, why? Second of all, what about the absolute shitload of other sources mentioning them, both native and spanish?
>>17984207
alright im done you're just making an ass of yourself, you have no reading comprehension or critical thinking skills. You're repeatedly provided with objective proof proving you wrong and you just double down again and again. You have no connection to reality. Here are some reading comprehension tests for 10 year olds, you need them.

>>17984224
>why
It's how humans think, when they lie they draw on reality. The best lies are 90% truth and Cortes is lying to the King, essentially the closest thing to divinity. He's going to craft the best lie he can for essentially illegally invading

>shitload of sources
all quoting cortes, a liar

>>17981353 (OP)
>I know it hurts, right?
why is everything about emotions and feelings with you people

>The Mayan pyramids
they were just stone cladding over a natural hill unlike their egyptian peers, and it does not compare to something like the pantheon of rome with its eerily modern unreinforced concrete dome, its large scale does not indicate they had some advanced technology unbeknownst to other civilizations

>structures per square kilometer
if someone builds 10k single storey adobe huts in a square kilometer while another builds 5k 3 storey brick homes, what does this indicate exactly

>absurdly sophisticated bureaucratic systems
again, how do you quantify this, how would they compare to say the roman legal system, we have 1000s of surviving legal texts and fragments from rome, why would mayan bureaucracy be "absurdly sophisticated" or "more sophisticated"

>mandatory public education
most commoners received no education, not much different from other civilizations

>Indo-Europeans"
so 3000 to 1200 BC, mayan pyramids didn't even exist then, even if they did the dates don't tell us much about the "superiority" of their civilizations, the indo-europeans lived in barren frozen steppes while mayans lived in a lush warm farmland, despite this the indo-european fashioned spoked wheel chariots and elegant bronze weapons and conquered civilizations of the same scale as the mayans, it is like saying someone born poor who built his own business is less intelligent than a trust fund baby who squanders his wealth

mayan civilization was not wakanda, there was nothing exceptional about it, you take this or that snippet of information like "HURR MAYAN PYRAMIDS WERE SOO BIG", ignoring context like them never discovering the arch after 1000s of years, among other things, then get excited like an actual retard while everyone else poker faces

>>17984237
Pretty sure that anon is asking why Cortes would lie about there being aqueducts.
>He's going to craft the best lie he can for essentially illegally invading
I'm not an expert on Spanish royalty but why would the existence of aqueducts make an illegal conquest permissible?

>>17984574
He was trying to get the king to ignore his transgressions by delivering him Atlantis. He exaggerated the development of the natives to indicate possible revenue streams and to suggest that there were more civilizations, possibly even more advanced civilizations. The king would be motivated to support Cortes out of greed, but also out of the desire to use these people in order to force project in the region

>>17983310
I ain't mesoanon, fag

>>17984237
You got BTFO

>>17985109
How? He gave up when I pointed out that there's no point to ship most of the city's water by hand if there was an aqueduct into the city

>>17981353 (OP)
Steel armor and guns kinda decided the 'who's superior' debate in the most brutal way possible, didn't they?

>>17982691
>>17982710
Lmfao a live case study of an academic going native

Just shitty versions of manuscripts and court jesters

It was a swampy rabble waiting for the dustbin

>>17981371
That's exactly what I keep drilling home about on /pol/, but they keep crying about muh civilashun, as if life is about getting achievements like in a video game. You can then brag forever about getting these achievements and how they make you better than the current rulers. Fact is, Africans will replace European people through natural violent killer instinct, without any care for your civilization, and at the end of the day, the whites will be gone, and the Blacks will rule as the superior ones, because evolution only cares about those who remain. Fruitless efforts are irrelevant. If low IQ antisocial misfit behavior winds up on top in the end then evolution simply smiles upon them as the winners. That's how life works. The humble rat or the cockroach is in many cases superior to larger animals because they eat their eggs or outlast them.

>>17986145
>blacks
>ruling anything
The moment this behavior reaches a breaking point in the west, society turns into south africa and they all starve. Then they get enslaved by the chinese.

>>17986177
I don't see how that's helping your dysgenic ass in any way. You are simply not equipped to deal with this kind of evolutionary competition.

>>17986193
You are a schizophrenic mutt, you won't live to see the end of the century. Meanwhile, even if whites were to become an utter minority, the collapse that would follow the total destruction of infrastructure would see everyone except THEM dide.

But sure, keep coping.

>>17986202
It's pretty simple: whites gone -> POC dominate the planet. You are losing no matter what.

There was recently an uprising in Nepal. The people over there still have necessary killer instinct unlike whites. Whites are self-domesticated farm pigs whose color changed to pink and you lost your tusks. You are not capable of breaking out of your farm enclosure anymore. And I mean this biologically on a genetic level. No more than the Dodo bird was able to defend itself.

It is easier to build and maintain giant structures in tropical climates

>>17986212
we've only been in the modern era a few generations, evolution doesn't work that fast

>>17986243
It does though. Look at Mike Mew's research. It shows significant facial degeneration in just 3 generations, from "alpha-looking" to beta mouthbreather. Our grandfathers ate harder food and whole foods and grew strong. Strong bones density and high testosterone. Modern men have small hands and become trannies at an increasing rate.

>>17984389
>them never discovering the arch after 1000s of years, among other things
Neither did the Egyptians or the Mesopotamians after over two millennia. There's a reason why the people of Yahweh got their asses whooped by the people of Chemosh, which is that, y'know, chariots were not a Near Eastern invention. They already had the wheel, the seat, and load-bearing animals, but somehow they weren't able to add them up and make a chariot.
In fact Chinks didn't come up with the chariot on their own either, seeing as they had to adopt it from the Tocharians.

Just sayin, it ain't that easy to come up with shit on your own when you got nobody else to stimulate you.

>>17981353 (OP)
>If the Mayans hadn't suffered this collapse, they would probably have built even larger structures.
You could argue that for virtually every civilisation. The fact is that destroying your civilisation virtually entirely on your own is a pretty big condemnation of that civilisation.

>>17986423
>destroying your civilisation virtually entirely on your own is a pretty big condemnation of that civilisation
B-but what about heckin Atlantis and Hyperborea bro?

>>17986423
>The fact is that destroying your civilisation virtually entirely on your own is a pretty big condemnation of that civilisation.
It was a jungle civilisation, though. We haven't seen any long-lasting jungle civs.
Khmer went through the same shit. Once they got going, they had a sudden, unexplained apocalypse and remained a depopulated shithole ever since much like the Maya.
Amazonian civs went up in flames after first contact. Could be both blown up by disease or also fucked by the environment.
The last one I can think of is Congo, but I honestly don't know enough about that one to say anything about their condition and whether they saw a similar hard to explain implosion over a super-short period following their apex (in terms of population and city building).

The real problem is that jungle civs can't maintain food stocks. The conditions spoil any food supplies within 6 months or so. So a longer-lasting drought just kills them. People can survive off the jungle fruits if they don't have too many neighbors to compete with, but a massive city can't. No decent harvest for a couple of years in succession and you're toast no matter how well you managed your shit.

>>17986423
lol the current leading theory is the collapse happened because of a giant supervolcano that erupted nearby and flooded the area with ash, and also massively disrupted local weather patterns causing massive droughts. I don't think you can really blame a people for getting asssraped by nature that hard, its like calling the minoans inferior.

>>17981353 (OP)
>superior
>gets btfo by a handful of drunk sailors
Lol

>Aztec prophesy not only accurately predicted the arrival of invaders from the eastern sea who would destroy the Aztec empire but accurately predicted the exact fucking year of their arrival
No wonder Montezuma was so spooked holy shit

>>17981397
That ones that were already abandoned are the ones we have preserved today

>>17987014
>Aztec prophesy
this shit literally never happened btw

>>17987044
Did they cover the outside with some sort of plaster?

>>17987057
Yes, most mayan temples had a coat of plaster that was painted red, pic related is a reconstruction of a mayan temple that was ritualistically buried inside a pyramid (templo rosalia) in copan

>>17987066
This is how the temple was buried

>>17987066
Are you sure it was ritualistically buried? I always theorized they were conquering other cultures and then building pyramids on top of their temples

>>17987067
And these are pics of the actual temple taken inside the pyramid, the original paint is preserved

>>17987074
they definitely had artistic ability that's for sure

>>17987069
I'm not gonna pretend I'm an expert mesoamerican archeologist but I do know that mayans and pretty much all mesoamerican cultures built their temples in "stages", meaning they buried a phase of a temple inside a larger, newer version, a famous example of this is the pyramid of kukulcan in chichen itza

itt

>>17987077
pic related

>>17987087
Yeah I always wondered how they made the pyramids so big but it makes sense when they were adding to them over thousands of years

>>17987092
hot

>>17987087
So the inner pyramid is mayan, the outer pyramid is toltec, I think this represent a culture conquering another and literally building on top of the other

>>17987106
jeez, imagine how bright the temples were

>>17986145
See the brutality of modern blacks? This was required by European colonizers. They had to enslave, exploit, rape, and jew their way into creating countries.

That's why if the result of your civ, is your metric, then you can go suck off Jews. Oh you don't like the ways jews have no morals and use everybody as puppets? Well that's the only way that colonizers were able to make a "functional society".

>>17981485
There are dozens of Mayan languages not just a few indians. Mayans themselves are a collection of tribes. They don't really have a concept of a nation, more like "a peoples".

Lots of mayans today still live like in the old days and refuse to use modern tools. That's about as close as you are gonna get to a nation. Even the borders of Mexico/Guatemala divide the same ethnicity group into 2 countries. The Mam Mayan are split between the border of Mexico and Guatemala.

>>17983223
Iberians got cucked by """"inferior"""" moors for almost a millenium without diseases killing them en masse, also literally all iberians except basques are african rapebabies nowadays while you can find millions of unmixed amerindians throught the americas today

>>17987160
Fucking spammer

>>17987360
???

>>17987360
t.

>>17983998
we already know that you are stinky pajeet, no need to confirm that

>>17983418
you should just go see the ruins yourself

>>17985684
None of those played a major role in the war. The spanish actually melted down a lot of their armor and weapons to produce spears for the Tlaxcalans. The spanish joined a war between the Aztecs and Tlaxcalans and chose the right side

>>17981353 (OP)
What Mexican/Central Americans are more pathetic, the ones that larp as White, or the ones that larp as Aztecs and Mayans?

>>17988265
I can tolerate the mayan ones a bit more because tons of full/near full blooded mayans actually still exist, especially in guatemala, and there is a genuine non larpy effort to revive/preserve their culture. However pretty much anyone with aztec ancestry now has like 60% spanish blood at least.

>>17988196
>the ruins of the aqueduct that the aztec build
you mean this brick and mortar thing along a path? I think it's odd that there used to be so many pictures of this thing claiming it was the aqueduct and now the only picture on the internet of it is this blurry thing

>>17989519
better picture, but these are for the "Nezahualcoyotl gardens"

>>17989533
Seems there's a discrepancy between "functioning canals" and pre spanish canals

>>17989545
they're having trouble even mapping overland routes for a canal to the lake

>>17989545
I see so that flat area would have been the lake, so this place would have been nearly on the lake, and it was near mount Tláloc which was where aztecs did offerings to their rain god, which is who they named the mountain after. The "Nezahualcoyotl gardens" was a water temple and they dug canals from the hills in the mountains to flow down to the water temple, I assume when it rained? Or they're still trying to prove it actually connected to a spring. And I guess that would explain why people went there to get water because it was a religious thing, but I don't know if that proves they were supplying the city with water that way.

>>17989935
>you can go there in google maps
is it just me or does it look like they're calling a footpath a canal? it's not even remotely level

>>17989935
you idiot, this is for a completely different aquaduct in a completely different city. that one you're talking about wasn't for drinking water, it was for baths and watering plants, hanging gardens of babylon type shit. I don't think their are ruins of the chapultepec aqueduct, it's gone

>>17989902
It didn't even connect to the lake

look at a fucking map, retard, see tenochtitlan on the left? you're thing is way of the right side of the map.

>>17989955
this is modern concrete construction

>>17989961
So this broken tub is the only original thing in this area? notice all the new concrete and rocks around it

>>17989968
aztec gas chamber

>>17989987
This entire site is fake as fuck

>>17989996
>walk all the way up the mountain
>greeted by modern concrete and rocks like somebody was making a firepit in their backyard

>>17990008
wow ancient aztec concrete and rock retaining wall, wow, so advanced

>>17990014
"Temple of the sun" completely fake

>>17990032
"Large Bath of Nezahualcoyotl"

site also looks completely fake

this is on the otherside of the hill, they said the aztec were somehow delivering water from those mountains in the background

>>17981485
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_languages_of_the_Americas
Guaraní 6,500,000
Southern Quechua 5,000,000
Nahuatl 1,700,000
Aymara 1,700,000
Qʼeqchiʼ 1,100,000
Kʼicheʼ 1,100,000

>>17981485
Guarany is an official language in Paraguay and is spoken by the majority of people there

>>17989961
>>17989968
>>17989987
>>17989996
>>17990008
>>17990014
>>17990032
>>17990045
>>17990062
Absolutely pathetic cope

>>17990088
>claim there's still existing aqueducts
>they're fakes
really discredits the claims that there were even functioning canals

>>17990096
>theyre fakes
Certainly you have some actual evidence of this from the millions of people who have examined these ruins right, not just "i dont like how these pictures look"? Because to me it seems like they look just like thousands of other mexican ruins that have been definitively proven via radiocarbon dating to be real.

I mean after all, with how extensive the excavations and investigations have been, surely a hoax would be spotted quickly.

Also as >>17989955 pointed out you're not even talking about the right ruins, not even close, theres a giant arrow saying "TEXCOCO IS IN THE WEST" which should have been an extremely obvious tipoff. You just ignored this anon btfoing you because you can't read and therefore cant understand actual archeology.

>>17990108
There's only one area they claim to have still existing archaeological evidence of aqueducts and they're fake. That's not a coincidence. New novel theories with no evidence don't make up for that

>>17990122
>and they're fake
Your proof is?

>>17990123
Aztecs didn't uses rocks in concrete construction.

>>17990125
lmao you literally just made that up, fucking loser.

Not only did Aztecs do that, Teopantecuanitlan was doing it nearly 3000 years earlier. Pathetic little liar. Do you have a fetish for being embarrassed and disproven or something?

>>17990135
Weren't the olmecs wattle and daub hut dwellers? they didn't have concrete

>>17990298
Thats a surprisingly complex question. The west mexicans very much preferred stone/concrete/adobe stuff, and the olmec did do it sometimes. All evidence suggests that they were capable of building a shitload more in stone, they just didn't feel like it and its not clear why(its theorized that they just tore down most of it to build stuff later on). Olmecs potentially(its very close either way) weren't even the first civilization in Mexico, the Zapotecs rose around the same time and had much more sophisticated architecture. The more Zapotec looking architecture (and the location of course) are why theres a big argument over whether or not Teopantecuanitlan can truly be considered "Olmec". The Zapotecs were quicker to adopt large scale corn agriculture early on so they had an initial advantage, but once the Olmecs become corn focused they quickly surpassed them in population. The Olmecs also seemed to be much wealthier than them, seeing as there were far more Zapotec artifacts found in Olmec lands than vice versa. Additionally early Olmec religious belief seems to be far more influential on what came later than the Zapotecs.


Tldr: Personally I don't believe that site is "Olmec" I believe it's just Zapotecs that adopted Olmec religion and elements of their culture. I'd recommend reading about the Zapotecs they're cool and underrated and the whole "mother of mesoamerican civilization" thing with the Olmecs is overblown.

>>17990360
See the mound doesn't have mortar but all the facing and steps is concrete. That's a real mound with fake shit around it

>>17990364
No one gives a shit about your amateur uninformed opinions formed solely by bias and blurry pictures on the internet. You still have provided no actual evidence from the archeologists who have meticulously examined every brick of these sites, you've only produced impotent seething and childish fantasies. Without evidence you might as well be rambling about dragons and ancient aliens, it'd be taken just as seriously.

>>17990374
I don't think anybody wants to tell them that it's obviously fake, it's so embarrassing.

>>17990376
>tell them
Yeah they just let them extensively examine and carbon date everything, they'd never figure it out on their own.

>>17990380
Yeah carbon date the home depot quikcrete

>>17990360
Can you reccomend a good introductory book on the Zapotecs?
>>17990364
Anon Meso-Americans used mortar and cement.
Also, that 'mound' also uses mortar, it's just not as visible because it has not been cleaned up yet.
You have to keep in mind, that everything still standing of Meso-Americans was abandoned for hundreds of years because every inhabited site was demolished to make way for Spanish buildings.

>>17990385
Uh huh. Pretty sure they just used really good facing

>>17990385
>No, there is no Aztec monument that uses concrete as we know it today

>>17990382
oh my god you don't even know what carbon dating is do you? Am I arguing with a 10 year old?
>>17990385
Not yet, I'm still very much an amateur student myself desu. Where I've learned most of what I know(im gonna sound like a shill here but I pinky swear I'm not) is from a site called thegreatcoursesplus.com. It costs money but it has a free trial. I've just finished the Ancient Mesoamerica video lectures and the Olmec ones. The presenter is great, hes not a great speaker but hes passionate and EXTREMELY experienced, he actually discovered an entire lost maya city. The courses don't get into the fine details as much as i'd like but they both cover a shitload of information about like every settlement in mesoamerica so im fine with it. Good jumping off point to find what you're most interested in and research it further on your own time.

>>17990400
That's clearly concrete and that's clearly a tourist trap

>>17990401
yeah you can repeat that nonsense all you want, doesn't make it true. Provide real evidence or stfu.

>>17990391
I said Mortar. Not concrete. They are different things.

>>17990400
Thanks.

>>17990404
Real evidence? when I type in mayan/aztec concrete all that comes up is that they covered all the rough stone with plaster

>>17990410
>Ancient Maya produced some of the most durable lime plasters on Earth, yet how this was achieved remains a secret. Here, we show that ancient Maya plasters from Copan (Honduras) include organics and have a calcite cement with meso-to-nanostructural features matching those of calcite biominerals (e.g., shells). To test the hypothesis that the organics could play a similar toughening role as (bio)macromolecules in calcium carbonate biominerals, we prepared plaster replicas adding polysaccharide-rich bark extracts from Copan’s local trees following an ancient Maya building tradition. We show that the replicas display similar features as the organics-containing ancient Maya plasters and demonstrate that, as in biominerals, in both cases, their calcite cement includes inter- and intracrystalline organics that impart a marked plastic behavior and enhanced toughness while increasing weathering resistance. Apparently, the lime technology developed by ancient Maya, and likely other ancient civilizations that used natural organic additives to prepare lime plasters, fortuitously exploited a biomimetic route for improving carbonate binders performance.

The concrete is fake

>>17990410
>>17990421
you're the one who first mentioned concrete dude, I just didn't correct you because i thought you were just using the word to describe plaster/cement, i didn't suspect you were actually retarded enough to think you were looking at real concrete.

>>17990421
You've decisively proven yourself wrong about them being fakes here lmao. The plasters containing organic matter means they can be (and are) radiocarbon dated, proving their age.

>>17990436
???

>>17990445
It's literally just rocks they hauled up to the mountain and concreted together to make fake monuments

The only people I even see talking about it are crazy ass mormons trying to say mexicans using concrete on their fake monuments possibly proves their bible true or something

>>17990449
>It's literally just rocks they hauled up to the mountain and concreted together to make fake monuments
And your proof that theres modern concrete and not cement/plaster is??? Still waiting. Two things can look similar, for example you look like a pile of fermented horseshit but unfortunately you're not and you're vaguely capable of communication.

>>17990454
Sorry buddy. The pyramids and temples are real but anything you see at the tourist attractions with concrete is fake

>>17990456
ITS FAKE ITS FAKE ITS FAKE ITS FAKE THE EVIDENCE DOESNT MATTER ITS TRUE BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!

>>17990458
looks like some hillbilly's shed

>>17990460
LALALALALALALA ITS ALL FAKE CARBON DATING EVIDENCE ISNT REAL LALALALALALALA

>>17990461
they didn't carbon date the Lowes home improvement back yard travesty that is mexican tourist attractions

look at the facing on the pyramid of the sun, it's all fake concrete

Guys, I think it's time we all finally came clean about Mexico

Mexico isn't actually a real country, it was some random plot of land that every member of the United Nations decided to set aside back in the 1980s and made up an entire fake history about. There was no Aztecs of Mayans, there was no Mexican-American war, there was no Spanish conquest in the area and there was no Mexican Revolution. We all just kind of made that shit up
>But all these temples and ruins!
All old leftover Disneyland and Disneyworld props that they didn't want to throw away so they instead just hauled them out there in the middle of the jungle. Sorry you had to find out this way amigos.

>>17990477
back in the 1920's they started redoing all the pyramids and shit with concrete to make money through tourism

apparently they even made fake monuments

>>17990477
ay carumba...

>>17990449
That is modern cement. And it's specifically marked by those pebbles. It's more honest than most monumental reconstructions. Rather than just hiding that it was reconstructed within a tiny plaque on the back of a gift shop.

>>17990483
the problem is they went ahead and started building fake little rock monuments everywhere that aren't even in straight lines

>>17986193
You wouldn't survive 5 minutes in the stone age cannibal planet cope fantasy you've invented in your head.

>>17990449
>>17990483
>>17990484
samefag

>>17991360
>mexicans are so backwards their government went around in the 20's and built all this fake shit to bring in tourists
>mexicans are so retarded they now believe the aztecs and mayans had modern concrete technology
it's like planet of the apes

>>17991494
>>mexicans are so retarded they now believe the aztecs and mayans had modern concrete technology
Actually yes. There was a collapse of a roof structure in southern Mexico and the government ordered more concrete to fill it. When queried by American universities why they were repairing with modern materials instead of trying to maintain consistency, they said that the site already used concrete. This came out a few years ago, I'll see if I can find it

>>17991497
that's why nobody with an actual degree claims aztecs had concrete

>>17991494
Since you're just spouting random made up bullshit without providing evidence for anything, im just gonna give you the same treatment. You're a 5 foot tall indian man with an inside out penis and macrocephaly.

>>17991509
I'm not here to babysit mexicans

>>17991512
i dont need to take that from you you yakub looking ass, how do you even pee?

>>17991515
post a source that aztecs had concrete or go drown yourself in refried beans

>>17991517
Im not the anon claiming the aztecs had concrete you deformed freak of nature, im pointing out that you're an idiot for claiming that these old ruins are all made of concrete without any evidence.

>>17991517
im also not even slightly mexican lol

>>17991524
Go buy a bag of quikcrete from home depot and smash some rocks you found on the side of the read into it. It will look oddly familiar

>>17991529
Thats because cement/plaster and concrete ARE similar. As mentioned before:
>Two things can look similar, for example you look like a pile of fermented horseshit but unfortunately you're not and you're vaguely capable of communication.

If it actually was modern concrete then the thousands of archeologists examining these sites would have noticed immediately. So please, go ahead and link me to some reports from these archeologists

>>17991541
>aztec plaster is so durable that they used it as mortar and it still exists in pristine condition!
How come there's no plaster on any of their buildings then?

>>17991544
There is, most of it just eroded. Don't try to change the subject you balloon headed dimwit, come on, give me some REAL evidence that these are made of modern concrete, not just "uhh it looks sort of like it in photos"

>>17991549
>most of it just eroded
Oddly enough none of it eroded from between the rocks they found on the side of the road
>not even the same color
0 critical thinking

>>17991555
>Oddly enough none of it eroded from between the rocks they found on the side of the road
Because that is cement
>not even the same color
its made of different materials yakub

Still not providing any real sources because they dont exist, just dodging questions forever. You're not going to convince anyone of your bullshit

>>17991560
So literally everything i pointed out is cement because there's zero erosion

>>17991567
Yeah. Plaster was generally coating on the outside of the buildings, thats why it didnt last long. Mortar/cement was used for actual loadbearing construction

>>17991573
Right they didn't have concrete they only had plaster. Somehow this has been twisted because so many of the "renovations" they did used modern concrete. Actually claiming mesoamerican plaster was actually bog standard cement you buy at the store is a disservice to them

>>17981353 (OP)
AY LATINOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>17984825
>>17983310
>>17982691
I'll try to reply when I have time, but I probably won't

t. Mesoanon

>>17981485
Three of the five hegemon languages are not European.

>>17991584
why do latinx folx have some of the biggest white worshippers and anti-white seethers simultaneously?

>>17991576
you're retarded.
the made large quantities of non hydraulic cement using volcanic ash as pozzolan and mixed it with sand, gravel and pumice to produce mortar and plaster. their materials were ve to similar to what the romans used, but you probably wont go around rome and point at all the modern concrete to argue the roman stuff is fake.
sure they reconstructed some of the tourist traps with modern portland cement, but they usually just do a small area to look neat and if you go into the jungle next to it, you'll find hectares of completely overgrown ruins that pretty much always have the mortar and sometimes even the plaster remaining.
theres also plenty of less popular sites where they at most removed the vegetation and soil and didn't bother doing anything else, because its not worth it.