Thread 17992929

Is it true spartans were poopy at actually fighting wars?

>>17992929 (OP)
Imagine unironically thinking the hyper-violent death cult was bad at war. They literally invented the concept of the last stand and styled on the entire Persian Empire with 300 chads.

>>17992933
A Shaolin Monk would get destroyed by any UFC fighter.

>>17993068
No. Look what shaolin monk can do.

>>17992929 (OP)
I wouldn't say bad but they were extremely overrated in their performance, made worse by their system requiring their troops to train since 7

they lost to Thebes, the niggas of the hellenic world

>>17993091
They were outnumbered, not outskilled. Spartans had a few unmatched elite warriors, niggas only had raw numbers.

>>17992933
>They literally invented the concept of the last stand
They did not.

>>17993091
>>17993095
Hey, this seems familiar!

>>17993091
dionysians, not even once

>>17993091
After their society was degenrated by becoming an empire during the Peloponnesian war

>>17992933
>and styled on the entire Persian Empire with 300 chads
You fell for their propaganda.

Sort of. They were capable of punching above their weight but not enough, they drank their own superman kool aid too much. Due to their backwards macho culture and massive over reliance on slaves they couldnt maintain large enough armies because they were constantly worried about rebellions, so they eventually got outmatched by states with more modern and sophisticated government.

More importantly, they failed to arrest the most obvious demographic collapse in history that was completely apparent and commented upon by everyone.

>>17993086
Obvious high caliber finger guns

>>17992933
Spartans irl were on average 5'5-5'8. Though if you met one through time travel somehow he could still kill you easily.

>>17992929 (OP)
they made the critical error of thinking wars are won off the strength of individual soldiers, 1 spartan was more capable than the average greek hoplite certainly
but his does not matter in war
what wins wars is logistics
and all the logistics of the spartans were done by slaves

They won and lost an equal amount. They're not especially good at war. They just have a tough reputation due to a few historians who puffed them up in the ancient world, and this gave them an inflated reputation up to the modern day.

>>17992933
>styled on the entire Persian Empire with 300 chads
The Persians regarded Thermopylae as a victory. They massacred the Greeks to the last man, including the Spartan king, and proceeded on the burn Athens to the ground.

The only reason Greece avoided conquest was the Persian naval defeat at Salamis some time later, combined with Artemisia convincing Xerxes to withdraw and leave only Mardonius behind with a fairly small, unsupported army.

>>17992933
source: a movie by zack snyder

Sparta LOST at Thermopylae and the Persians were able to run rampant across Greece afterward. The Persians were also infinitely more tolerant and lenient rulers than the Spartans were, who were tyrants over their own homeland and masters of the largest slave population in Greece. The idea that Spartans somehow represented "freedom" while the Persians represented slavery is absurd.

>>17993333
It's the inevitable result of any society that bases its ethos on a "fuck everyone but me personally and fuck the greater good, everyone should stab everyone in the back" purity mentality. The privileged powerful group will keep kicking out progressively more people out of the in-group in order to hoard more for themselves, until one day they wake up and find the privileged group has grown so small due to kicking out people that no one in society save a handful of elite has anything to gain maintaining or protecting said society.

>>17992929 (OP)
No, not really true at all. They had thier faults, but were the best army in Greece. They could take any other Greek state 1v1 easily. Alexander would not conquer them to fill his army like he did with the rest of Greece. Maybe as much or more because they would fight to the death than because thier resistance would damage his army so greatly. Spartan leadership alone was extremely beneficial to other peoples armies, even if everyone there hated them, they still got undeniable results.

They were feared hoplites, and the idea of 300 Spartans at Thermopylae became legendary.

>>17992929 (OP)
I don't know, but I do know that the guy who wrote a book about ancient Spartans being pretty average overall and broke down the battles they won vs the battles they lost completely coldly and dispassionately, has been banned from visiting the modern city of Sparti by the personal order of the Mayor.

>>17993622
>They could take any other Greek state 1v1 easily.
>Takes almost 30 years for them to barely defeat Athens

>>17993671
They both had allies. What war are you talking about? If Athens and Sparta properly both fought 1v1 Sparta would have demolished them in no time.

>>17993622
They were not really in any kind of shape after Thebes dominated them. Philip was given to Thebes where he watched them train. Philip and Alexander dominated following. I'm not saying anything bad about Sparta, just the way the cookie crumbles in the jungle.
>>17993671
They were funded by Persia too. The Athenians ran out of resources.

>>17993689
>Nooooo you can't have allies because...BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T OK!

>>17993708
That's why I said 1v1 dumbass. They were the best at the actual fighting part.
If Alexander Zerg rushed Sparta and killed every last one of them that doesn't mean they were bad at fighting.

>>17993555
>>17993559
Actually you're just as wrong as they are. Yes, the Spartans lost Thermopylae, but the reason Thermopylae is considered a turning point is because the Spartans delayed the Persians just long enough for the Greeks to eventually win.

>>17993551
>Become leading land hegemon amongst the Greek cities by being completely average

>>17993555
>blaming the woman

>>17993622
>Spartan leadership alone was extremely beneficial to other peoples armies
Yeah the persians sure loved the spartan defectors and exiled kings lmao

Nah it's just another "akshully" reddit take to cast doubt on western historiography based on half-truths and cherry picked information

>>17993333
>>17993571
>completely forgetting Spartan society was literally a foreign permanent military occupation from the Dorian invasion days

?

>>17994396
Dude this guy on YouTube said an army was sent to block the pass the Persians used to flank the 300 Spartans and others and just let them march on by instead of blocking them. WHAT THE FUCK?

>>17992929 (OP)

They were just mediocre and unremarkable. Their was records show just as much, and they didn't perform any better than their non-militaristic rivals. What the Spartans excelled in was propaganda, much like the modern day USMC.

>>17994396

No, the delaying action was a complete failure. Not only did they fail to delay the Persians significantly, they failed to inflict major casualties on the Persian forces. The battle was such a humiliating defeat for the Greeks, that they were later forced to spin the tale into a heroic last stand.

>>17993671
Athens refused to give battle on equal conditions to Sparta, allowing them to occupy Attica repeatedly for decades rather than risking a decision.