Thread 17993967

What went wrong?

>>17993967 (OP)
>What went wrong?
Land war in Asia.

It all started in 503 when the East Roman merchant Paedologius travelled up the Dniepr....

Hitler decided to pull out.

>>17993967 (OP)

Lucy spy ring knew it was coming, gave advanced notice to the Soviets, and they prepared a layered defense that could brunt any German advance. Doesn't help Hitler delayed the offensive so they could have more useless Ferdinands that just ended up breaking down.

>>17993967 (OP)
I'm not sure how the Germans could have succeeded here once the Soviet Union caught wind of the plan

>>17993967 (OP)
It went quite well actually.

>>17993971
>they prepared a layered defense that could brunt any German advance
The Soviet defensive lines functionally failed, Hitler just decided to call things off because the western Allies invaded.

>>17993967 (OP)
loadsa mine fields and the soviets pre-sighted their artillery on their own defensive positions

>>17993967 (OP)
The Russians knew it was coming and heavily fortified the area.
The Russians prepared multiple belts of defenses with trenches and mines.
Going ahead with the attack even though they knew the Russians knew they were going to attack and had heavily fortified the area.

>>64251138
Why do you need to discuss politics here instead of on the politics board? Wouldn't you complain if people from /o/ started talking about trucks here?

>>17993974
Um, no? By the time Hitler called it off, all momentum was already gone. And the Soviets still had another entire army group waiting in reserves.

>>17993978
>all momentum was already gone.
That is just not ture. Prgress was slow, buut teh German foroces were not exhausted, not out of ammmo, fuell or vehicles.
>And the Soviets still had another entire army group waiting in reserves.
And breaking the second army group would have achieved the German objective.

The Soviets took murderous losses by stupidly holding their ground. Soviet revisionist history and 80 years of repetition has muddied the waters to a point where people actually believe Kursk was desaster for the Germans, but it was actually the opposite.
The Soviets just ended up in possession of the battlelfield, and had endless logistics cheat turned on in the form of lend-lease soo they could replace all the losses.

>>17993979
Ergo, they won

>>17993977
>>>>/o/ mentioned
Don't you fucking drag them into this

>>17993980
Yes, because Hitler called off the offensive.

>>17993979
bla bla bla spew more bullshit
layered defences are a direct counter to blitzkrieg especially with proper AT guns

>>17993968
Please point to Asia on that map, my American chum

>>17993984
East of Danube river.

>>17993982
So?
If the Germans failed their objectives and the Soviets didn't then that means the Soviets won.

>>64251138
Current events

>>17993967 (OP)
soviets had too much american gibs

>>17993979
>Just two more weeks
Manstein was given troops to achieve an objective. He didn't and asked for more troops.
What else to say? It's possible if he was given more troops that Kursk would have become another pyrrhic victory, rendering Germany unable to make any offensive operation and probably defensive too.
Citadel was a retarded move from the German thinking they could still get back initiative.

>>17993985
Ah, a medieval man.

>>17993986
Nobody contested this, idk why you keep repeating this.

>>17993967 (OP)
the first cauldrooners

>>17993967 (OP)

The Americans invaded Siciliy leading to Hitler pulling a ton of troops out to defend Italy.

>>17993984
NTA but fuck Europe as a concept. You cunts should be Eurasia, and there should be 9, possibly 10 continents, and they should be based on continental plates, with all the continents that have less above-water landmass than the Arabian plate being called dwarf continents.
Europe as a continent makes zero sense, but you're all too up your own ass to rename it.

Polite sage for off topic

Bump

>>17993983
That must be why the Maginot line worked so well.

>>17993967 (OP)
They waited months so the soviets could build line after line of defenses. Generally attacking multiple defense lines without overwhelming superiority of men or equipment is a bad idea.

>>17993989
Germany's inability to do moore than react to western Allied offensives is a fact completely divorced from Zitadelle. The Kursk operattion was always going to be the last major offensive action.
Even if Germany wins and kills every last Soviet soldier in the salient, they lose strategically.

Because no matter what they do, the Soviets have endless logistics support from the US. Fuel, trucks, ammo, locomotives, food, boots, you name it, it all comes off a LL ship.

>>17993994
I honestly don't think I know anyone who considers "Europe" a continent, it's almost always been used just to specify "west of X", where X has shifted east a good bit over the last 100 years and is referencing a political sphere moreso than a geographic one.

>>17993977
guns are political

>>17993979
holy shit a real live wehraboo in 2025!

>>17993994
You will never be European, saar.

>>17994001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryZfJ-rPllE
learn yourself some history, it beats the soviet fanfiction

>>17993967 (OP)
Bad intel. The Germans weren't aware of the amount of armored reserve units the soviets had. Zitadelle was lost before it happened. Hitler should have trusted his gut and stayed put in the East for 1943, instead he listened to Zeitzler and Manstein

>>17993967 (OP)
>What went wrong?
The anus clenched, but the cock did not break off.
puccia cock very stronk.

>>17993985
Ameritard woke "education," on parade.

The Red Army had time to prepare for the next offensive while strengthening its defenses around Kursk, threatening the rear of Kluge and Model in the northern sector.
The lost victory stories of Manstein and Paul Carrel are now merely works that discredit them.

>>17993967 (OP)
>What went wrong?
For the Third Reich? Lend-Lease.

Turns out, also what went wrong for the rest of the world. Too. Lesson learnt: NEVER give niggers weapons. Evah.

>>17994000
Let the mods know and they'll ban gun discussion from /k/ - Weapons

Let's assume that for some goofy reason the Allies just don't fuck with Germany in 1942-1943 in any big way. Could Germany have won Stalingrad, Kursk, etc and beaten the Soviets?

>>17993967 (OP)
People will unironically say that some usless ass trucks saved Russia when in reality the total money value of the land lease is not even half of what ukraine is getting.

>>17994011
>some usless ass trucks
the most numerous truck in soviet service was a ford clone with 2-wheel drive and 1 ton of cargo capacity
this was useless for anything other than hauling potatoes and was classified as a reserve vehicle despite having more of them than any other vehicle

the US sent the 6x6 studebaker which carried 2.5 tons and thanks to its all-wheel drive it could go off-road fairly well in comparison to the soviet truck
they also received some 4x6 variants and these could carry 3 tons of cargo
the studebaker was their most important truck, unquestionably

>>17994010
by brits purely stays out of the war, means no threat of chemical retaliation. Albeit the brits did prepare for the gas war, although neither of their gas masks for military or civilian are sufficient against nerve gas.
by 1941, tabun mass production was well underway.
By 1943, they certainly had enough to gas every single soviet cities all the ways to the Ural without any fear of retaliation.
Not to mention the soviet never had any clue about heavy bomber prior to their b29 clone, even then the eastern front air war was mostly a turkey shoot for the luftwaffe up until early 1944

>>17993977
>Wouldn't you complain if people from /o/ started talking about trucks here?
If it's about military used trucks I don't see an issue.
I have no interest in discussing gun rights and other cans of worms.

I am so tired of opinionated retards viewing every single historical event as being caused or decided by a single decisive factor and then extrapolating this to support their dumbass hyperbolic grand narratives.
Land-lease wasn't the only (or the main) reason for the Soviet victory on the eastern front, but it definitely was a very important one. The USA didn't "sit out the war only to come in at the end and take all the credit" and they didn't "single-handedly carry the entire allied war effort", either. Germany didn't lose simply because "stupid Hitler sabotaged everything", nor because "the jews made it so".
The course of history is shaped by a myriad of factors concurrently influencing reality. Some of them may be more important than others, but it is incredibly idiotic to pick out your favorite one and disregard the others because they don't conform your worldview.

At Kursk, the Soviets had an advantage in men, materiel, and intelligence (with a significant part of the latter two being supplied by the western allies). The German attack was delayed, causing the absence of the element of surprise. Other war theatres (primarily Sicily) distracted the German high command and prevented the necessary concentration of sustained effort.
The combination of these factors made the success of Citadel impossible, yet not one of them was crucial enough for the outcome of the battle to have changed should that particular factor be absent from the equation.
There were also many other, lesser factors that are too numerous to list here, but I hope you get my point by now.

>>17993967 (OP)
That was Hitler's plan from the very beginning. He intended for Kursk offensive to seemingly "fail" because (ask naziboos why ackhually)

Hitler pussy out after Allies land in Sicily. Eventually they would made another pocket and destroy a destroy a entire Soviet Army or even 2.

>>17993967 (OP)
>What went wrong

One major factor people overlook is that by the time Kursk rolled around, the Germans were already stretched thin. The Sicily invasion in July 1943 forced Hitler to divert divisions to Italy to prop up Mussolini and secure the southern flank. While the bulk of troops in Sicily were already stationed there, a few fresh units that could’ve reinforced the Eastern Front were pulled away, and after Italy started collapsing in August-September, even more divisions got rerouted. Basically, Germany couldn’t commit everything they had to Kursk, and the lack of reserves and overstretched supply lines made the offensive doomed from the start.

>>17994018
Biting more than he could chew you mean.

>>17993969
YOU SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN A SNACK

>>17993967 (OP)
The Soviets knew the Wehrmacht's plans weeks before the attack and buried thousands of mines and fortified their positions.

The British told them about the planned German offensive.

>>17993996
the failure of the maginot line had nothing to do with blitzkrieg beating layered defenses. The line did exactly what it was supposed to, presenting a hard point on the German border that could be manned by reservists, allowing the best equipped and trained soldiers to fight in Belgium. The Germans attacked in a sector that was lightly defended because it was thought safe from attack, and this allowed the Germans to encircle the forces in Belgium which then surrendered. The maginot line was then cut off and encircled itself. That is not at all the equivalent to what happened at Kursk.

>>17993979
>Endless Logistics Cheat
Anyone who talks about war like this is a faggot.

>WAAAHHHH, NO FAIR, NO FAIR, YOU HAVE MORE SOLDIERS THAN MEEEE!!! YOU CHEATED YOU CHEATED YOU CHEATED!!!

>>17994015
One good reply ITT

>>17993967 (OP)
They were retarded to start an offensive, but then again the war was practically lost by that point so they might as well gamble, just like they did before. It didn't work out this time.

>>17993979
>but...but... the Soviets were on their last leg...
>ignore the huge Soviet counter-offensive immediately after the battle, which was possible because the soviets withheld countless divisions on purpose

>>17994210
They were out of options, and honestly, it wasn't a bad move in theory.

Winning at Kursk was meant to be the first step towards peace negotiations. Hitler wanted negotiations from a position of strength so he could salvage something out of the war.

Germany should also secure peace negotiations with the Soviets before the Americans join the European theater.

>>17994237
Well that was delusional, the Soviets wouldn't have accepted anything but unconditional surrender at this point. With the resources behind the Red Army by Summer 1943 any "victory" at Kursk would be a minor setback.

>>17994244
>Well that was delusional
It was still the best option they had.

Low moral and inferior propaganda.

>>17993994
>Juan de Fuca is a continent
>Europe isn't

OK

>>17993967 (OP)
For some reason german factories never modernized which leads to not enoug tanks

>>17994001
Tankies know nothing

>>17994197
Fuck off IDF bot

>>17993967 (OP)
Biggest tank battle in WW2 was Kursk
Biggest air drop in WW2 was Market Garden
Biggest=/=Best

>>17993994
The North American metropolis of Tokyo

>>17994939
Biggest naval battle was Leyte Gulf so sometimes they get it right

>>17993974
Holy mutt cope

>>17993998
>lend lease cope
Less than 7% of all Soviet war material

>>17994013
The Germans had already been pushed back by 1942 so your fanfic doesn’t work

>>17994011
logistics are what win wars, if you cannot get men and supplies where they are needed they are worthless

>>17994011
>retard doesn't understand opportunity cost
many such cases, sadly
>they just gave them trucks, high octane aviation fuel and a bunch of other shit that allowed soviets to focus their productive capacity on other areas, how the fuck did that help the soviets?