Thread 18004731

I don't understand how Rome "fell" in 476. Didn't they just depose the emperor in the West and the emperor in the East replaced him?
The Roman empire, the Roman senate, Roman culture, Roman identity, Roman civilization continued to exist and thrive. What was the fall?

>>18004731 (OP)
> I don't understand how Rome "fell" in 476. Didn't they just fall?

>>18004731 (OP)
>Roman culture, Roman identity, Roman civilization continued to exist
>Don't speak latin
>Consider selves Greeks
>Civilization becomes less Roman
Regardless if America split into East and West and eventually Washington was conquered by Canadians and only the WUSA remained I think it would be legitimate to say America fell when the average Californian is far more American than the average Greek was Roman.

>>18004782
Did all the Romans in the West suddenly burst into flames and the Senate disappear into thin air?

>>18004775
So the emperor in the East becoming emperor in the West make Rome in the West fall?

>>18004731 (OP)
When did the Senate go? I heard that it still existed in medieval times.

>>18004731 (OP)
The western romans always saw themselves as the real Rome compared to the eastern romans.

>>18004791
The government and state falls the nation falls. Did all Egyptians suddenly burst into flames when Persia first conquered Egypt? No? Shit I guess Egypt has never fallen.

>>18004799
They were.

Everyone knows the Byzantine Empire is not the real Rome.

The Byzantine Empire is the Kevin Farley of Empires. The Jim Belushi.

>>18004731 (OP)
>Didn't they just depose the emperor in the West
That's only true in Italy. The rest of the West was conquered by force and has little continuity with Roman structures or institutions.
>What was the fall?
The fall of the Western Roman Empire.
>>18004782
>>Don't speak latin
You're still left with a major part of the population speaking Latin and still dominating the highest ranks of government until the end of Justinian's reign.
>>Consider selves Greeks
No they didn't.

>>18004794
the senate was destroyed as a governing institution in 580 when the Lombards invaded, but the upper classes of Rome continued LARPing for centuries afterwards

>>18004794
The Senate continued just fine under Odoacer and the Ostrogoths. With the Gothic war a lot of their estates were targeted deliberately by the Ostrogoths as punishment for defecting, but Justinian tried to mitigate it with the Pragmatic Sanction later on. The real issue became that there were simply no more jobs being given to Senators or prospective ones in Italy anymore, Justinian and his successors preferred their own administrators instead of using the Senators, who were capable of the same roles. Without any reason to actually be in Rome anymore the Senate sort of just slowly disintegrated. The last two actions we know from the Senate are from the early 7th century, the first being putting up an honorific column of Phocas and the second was asking for assistance to defend from the Lombards. We don't hear anything after. The Medieval Senate is a later construction unrelated to the Roman Senate of Antiquity.

>>18004731 (OP)
West Rome fell in 410. What came after was a weak pretender state. Tax revenue fell something like 90% immediately after the sack

>>18004731 (OP)
there was no roman nationality, the people all spoke latin but they did not identify with each other in the same civic sense we have with nationalism. You could only find that within the city of rome itself

>>18004910
accidentally hit sent, cont.
So when Rome fell as a central authority there was not enough of a cultural adhesive to keep the state together

>>18004821
They did consider themselves "graikos", just not "Hellenes"

>>18005032
>They did consider themselves "graikos"
Where is this ever said or shown that these people as a group thought of themselves as anything other than Roman until the 13th century?

>>18004782

>>Consider selves Greeks

Is that what they teach in gayreek schools?

u are as retarded as cockroaches then

>>18005164
Its about time you get sent to the front Vlad you worthless zigger subhuman

>>18004782
This is revisionist history by greek propagandists until the british philhellenes came along everyone in greece considered themselves roman

>>18005178
Greek was a slur before Brits told Romans to LARP as Greeks for some cash

>>18005178
The biggest we wuz kangs pretender nation in history are the Greeks. Just a contemptible people. Didn’t even consider themselves Greek until Lord Byron buttfucked their little boys and told them to, pathetic

>>18005181
Yes the modern day greek state is as artificial as it gets from language to creation myth. Such a weird chain of events. I hope those brits burn in hell for this

>>18005184
Im glad that cocksucker died in the ottoman empire of all places. Such a pathetic faggot with absurd delusions of grandeur

>>18005184
Nah

That'd be jeets, germanics/jews, french, cockroaches, and pure mongoloids

>>18005192
And russians.

>>18004791
>State infrastrucutes start collapse
>Lack of common state education quickly lead to local identities to replaced the common Roman One
>Right after 476 the rate of Roman senatorial nobles escaping east skyrocketed
It didnt disappeared in a night. But the western roman civilization was already dying and the lack of a centrale political figure drammatically worsened it

>>18004731 (OP)
It did not really fell then, Odoacer just sent the crown back to Constantinople, claiming the empire did not need a second emperor.
The idea that there was an empire they were living in stayed afloat for a while, even the Germanic tribes that took control thought of themselves as Romans.

It fell apart when Goths, Greeks and Vandals roleplaying as Romans started to fight over who was the real Roman, and slowly realized none of them were.

>>18004731 (OP)
because it's propaganda made by byzantines to justify invasion of italy exactly 60 years later in 536. gibbon took it from Marcellinus because Augustus-Augustulus autism sounded cool. it's bs for several reasons, it's not only that roman traditions continued after 476, but Julius Nepos was still officially the emperor until 480. so it's cringeful cherrypicking of events anyway. classical (or late antiquity if you wish) roman empire in italy truly ends during gothic war (and lombard invasion), not just due to the war itself, but due to climatic winter in 530/540's and justinian plague the depopulated the cities and brought medieval because the empire's level of complexity weren't sustainable anymore.

https://time.com/6101964/fabricated-fall-rome-lessons-history/

>Random general 1 usurps Trump
>Congress still exists
>US has elections but only 2 handpicked candidates(his 2 sons) by said general are allow to run
>NATO doesn't recognize the new president
>General 2 comes in and unsurps the new president and general 1
>General 2 says he loves Donny(who now lives in rump state Florida along with his supporters), loves NATO and he's full on MAGA.
>Also gives NATO the nuclear suitcase and says he'll just run a little acting government for a while to bring everything under control and asks for recognition as Federal Governor of the US for the time being.
>NATO doesn't like the new guy but at least he's friendly and keeps saying he will allow Donny back
>Refuses to allow Donny back in the country but still pretends he will while also ignoring anything NATO says from then on.
>Eventually becomes aggressive, assassinates Donny and occupies Florida
>Congress still exists btw
>NATO considers him a threat and sends a finnish only paramilitary to dispose of him
>Fully occupies the US
>Finnish general Juhani Virtanen becomes new acting president of the US
>NATO gets too busy fighting Russia
>Virtanen slowly just break away from NATO and declares the formation of the Ebin Kingdom.
So why did the US collapse? It still had a congress, spoke english, ate burgers and watched NASCAR?

>>18005473
It's probably one of the most pervasive myths of all history that Western Rome fell in 476. How did it even become so solidified in our memory that this was the case though?

>>18004731 (OP)
Rome changed capitals. They called themselves the Romans because Jesus did and they are entirely correct and the only reason why Russia and them is relevant now.

>>18005504
The most unrealistic part of your post is the last bit. No one watches NASCAR anymore lmao

>>18006214
Like most of history, because its easier for you to understand.

I say "You" as in the royal you. You, me, your neighbor, everyone around you. Everyone for the past 200-300 years when education started becoming more widespread.

People have spent their whole academic careers and their entire lives explaining and studying the collapse of Rome. Explaining all that just doesn't work. So its easier to just pick a date and say "Yeah that's basically when it stopped being a thing"

>>18004731 (OP)
yes the fall of rome might not be tied to one singular event. No one thought about that before

>>18005473
>But, if we recognize that Rome did not fall in 476, the lessons we take from Roman history become quite different. Rome’s story then does not warn us of the danger of barbarous outsiders toppling a society from within. It instead shows how a false claim that a nation has perished can help cause the very problems its author invented.
utter libtard nonsense. rome fell in 476 and the corpse was buried later, that's all

>>18006291
NASCAR is apparently more popular than it's ever been, I don't get it either

>>18004731 (OP)
When the Middle Ages ended? It's the same type of question.

>>18004782
>Considered themselves Greek
Lmfao. They considered themselves Roman and called everyone else barbarians until 1453.

>>18004731 (OP)
>Roman culture, Roman identity, Roman civilization continued to exist and thrive
Except it didn't. When religion changed, all these things changed too.
Only liars or idiots who don't understand culture and values deny this.

Here's the truth

The fall of Rome was Byzantine propaganda to delegitimize barbarian rulers in the West.

A millennia later we get midwits on YouTube debating whether the Byzantines was actually the Roman Empire after it "fell"

Funny isn't it

West Rome fell*

>>18007021
I feel the middle ages ended the instant moveable type printing was a thing.

>>18004731 (OP)
>The Roman empire, the Roman senate, Roman culture, Roman identity, Roman civilization continued to exist and thrive.
Are you retarded?
Those thing where basically in shamble by at least 150y

>>18004791
Why you don't open an history book before making shitty thread?