Thread 18066691

From the Christian perspective, were the pagan gods real? Michael Heiser (picrel) argues that they were in his cosmic geography series.
He argues that the nations were literally given gods (fallen angels) to worship as judgement after the Tower of Babel. Then God finds Abram and gives him a miracle so He can build from scratch faithful people. Abraham's seed is promised to later "bless the nations" (Jesus bringing the Gentiles back to the one true God).
When Jesus enters Gentile land and exorcises Legion they call Him "Son of the Most High God." They're terrified to see Him because their allotted time to rule the nations ends with Jesus. This is why Jesus sends 72 disciples (the number of divisions at Babel) into the pagan lands with authority to cast out demons. The disciples are quite literally usurping the pagan gods from their thrones. This is echoed by Paul saying the Christian's war is "not of the flesh, but of powers and principalities." This is angelic language, which of course applies to demons.
Think of the Greco Roman pantheon. Their gods are often evil and making mistakes, even interbreeding with humans. Sounds a lot like in Genesis when the "sons of God" bred with people and created the nephilim, doesn't it? Greco Roman writers also said that their gods were allotted to them, which reflects this idea.
What do you think?

The simplest explanation is that ancient goat-herders wrote stories to explain the world and shit on their rivals. Pagan gods were just the other tribes imaginary friends. The sons of God in Genesis was a mistranslation and later Jews/Christians retconned it into a fallen angel story to cope with their own exile. Paul used powers and principalities as a metaphor for systemic evil.

>>18066694
Well that's why I said from a Christian perspective. You don't have to believe necessarily to entertain the idea. Maybe /lit/ is a better place for this

>>18066691 (OP)
Those people who trace their bloodlines to Zeus are peoples that were created either directly through his or his god childrens' breeding with mankind to create their races. Those bloodlines, races, phenotypes are the earthly embodiment of the spirit of their patron god and that gods physical embodiment upon the earth.

This was subsumed into christianity by saying that those were the angels which fell, the fall, which created the people who are of God that are the vessel of the Spirit. They are called by the Son to create the body of the one true God, the God of gods, in order that all of their kind would have dominion over all of creation using the name of God for their justifications.

worship doesn't come into it, and if you want to worship a devil then I recommend you follow modern day islam or jew relgion

>>18066766
I don't worship anyone but the true God revealed in Jesus Christ. I just find it fascinating that the Bible seems to affirm real spiritual forces ruling over the other nations. And yeah, I do believe Islam and Judaism are of the devil. Rabbinical Jews have edited scripture (the masoretic text) to specifically exclude prophecies of Jesus. Evangelical Christians have this idea that they simply stayed as they were in the Second Temple era while in fact they've formed a reactionary religion opposed to Christ, and that's not even mentioning the really nasty stuff like kabbalah/gematria/Talmud.

I think Gnosticism was onto some shit in the sense that the OT god seems to fucking nothing like the NT one, which lends credence to the idea that OT's god was just that of the Jews, because he is seriously a baby in stuff like Exodus, totally unbecoming of someone supposed to be the Father. Dude wanted them to burn animals and mutilate their dicks, that sounds like something a lesser god needs. It also goes a long way to explaining why the Jews are so vile and deceitful; they literally follow a lesser god who demands sacrifices and rewards murder and lies.

>>18066691 (OP)
Crazy how theological debate is full of people just making random shit up

>>18066694
>The sons of God in Genesis was a mistranslation and later Jews/Christians retconned it into a fallen angel story
Not at all. It is "Sons of God" in the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is only different in the Masoretic Text, which comes from rabbinical Jews in 1,000 AD where it says instead "Sons of Israel." The MT is highly suspicious because it removes prophecies of Christ, e.g.
>Isaiah: changing "virgin" to "young woman"
>Isaiah: removing the line about restoring sight to the blind that Jesus quotes in Luke 4:18
>changing Psalm 22 to not seem like crucifixion imagery
>adding "Israel" in places where it doesn't belong
>completely removing the so-called deuterocanonical books which contain uncanny messianic prophecies of Jesus like in the Book of Wisdom
>The Catholic Bible preserved these books from the Septuagint but amazingly used the MT for the rest of the OT; Protestants removed them entirely because they believed the Jews must have kept a more honest record than the Church for its first 1,000 years
And because it comes so late in Christendom from people with a clear motive for subverting scripture. How literally every Bible except the Eastern Orthodox one came to use this edited text baffles me.

>>18066859
The early church fathers said that the pagans were inadvertently worshipping demons when they sacrificed to their idols. It's not some new idea out of left field.

>>18066854
At least consider the possibility that the jews just made it up.

>>18067224
So your argument for why this isn't made up is that some ancient jews made some other shit up?

>>18067233
The church fathers meaning the early Christians like Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr. You're free to not believe it. I'm saying the idea isn't fringe or novel, it was a common belief logically deduced from scripture.

>>18067267
>The church fathers meaning the early Christians
Yeah the early christians are literal jews.
So again >>18067233

>>18067233
The purpose of religion is to find peace
If it contributes to violence or the glorification of violence
It’s from a greater evil

Thus Christianity reigns supreme as the one true faith
Despite being heavily fractured

>>18067278
Justin Martyr was not jewish. And I don't know about Ignatius but he had this to say. Ethnicity doesn't matter as much back then when you literally have jews denouncing their jewish brethren to live with Gentiles in their faith. Judaism went on to evolve into a reactionary anti-Christian religion.

>>18067308
Even from a secular view of history, you have to marvel at the significance of Jesus Christ causing people to abandon their countrymen to preach in hostile foreign lands even to the point of torturous execution. And then it worked and the faith took over Europe and then the New World? Remarkable.

>>18067308
It's incredible to see these talking points still being posted.
>Justin Martyr was not jewish.
Even if true that doesn't change the fact that early christians, by and large, were, in fact, jewish.
>Judaism went on to evolve into a reactionary anti-Christian religion.
Christianity is an anti-temple and anti-pharisaic version of judaism. The post-temple pharisaic version of judaism is naturally anti-christian. None of this changes the fact that it's all jewish.
It's just mensheviks and bolsheviks fighting it out over how best to be marxists.
>>18067317
I do not marvel at the spread of degeneracy and disease, of any kind, be it marxist, sauline or what have you.

>>18067308
>>18067317
literally picrel

>>18067495
desu, the Olympians have a much more credible claim to the throne than the Hebrews ever did.

>>18067499
Well, the Olympians are actual gods. Hebrews are some mutt group of desert bandits busy genitally mutilating their own children. I'm not really sure they're even remotely in the same league.

>>18067491
>It's just mensheviks and bolsheviks fighting
Your whole post is so absurdly reductive and straw graspy that it's hard to even say anything to. You know it's dishonest. Jews are the only people that explicit hate Christ and Christians to the point of having hateful blasphemies and to "pray for the death of Christians everyday" in their Talmud. Not even Muslims do that. These people hate Christians more than they hate Nazis. It was in fact the intense hatred of Christ by the Jews that perked my interest in the faith because I figured there must be something to it for them to despise it so.
>spread of degeneracy and disease
You're really going to pretend Christianity didn't end the prolific homosexuality of the pagan world? Alright. In the last 100 years, as the faith has weakened, we see a resurgence of destructive LGBT and feminism that the faith was containing all this time.

>>18067511
>brown groyper noises
Oh, sorry. I confused you for a White man. Enjoy your judeolatry.

>>18067516
>earnest replies met with "um yeah so basically JEW and FAIRY TALE and BROWN JEWISH KIKES and your SKY DADDY JEW took away my based GAY ORGIES and..."
The enemies of God are not sending their best.
The pagan gods lost. I'm sorry? My God won and offers eternal life in paradise to all who believe. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

>>18067540
Case in point.

>>18066766
>Those people who trace their bloodlines to Zeus
They have a name in this age, they are the Europeans, those who are of Europa, and they are the light and in them is the flame/Spirit which they have bore down through the generations, even if they do not know themselves for what they are any longer.

But the dark ever seek to extinguish their flame, to extinguish the light and cover the world in darkness.

>>18067540
Christianity is a false and cringe religion that only loser incels larp as nowadays.

>>18067511
Jews literally love christians you fucking idiot

nOtHinG thEy haTe mOrE!

>>18067603
>>18067597
Jews reject Christ and so are the enemies of God. There can be no acceptance for jews while to do not hail the Son as Lord. That is the only correct theological position for a Christian towards a Jew. Through ignorance, many who claim to be christian have been led to believe that they owe to jews some love or loyalty, but that is not the case and never will be.

>>18066691 (OP)
Simple, Catholic answer that is basically what you want to know:
Some of the pagan gods were not real. You can see that in the Old Testament where some prophets end up dabbing on followers of non-existent gods. And some of the others were demons.
In some cases, people were worshipping idols and demons used this to hijack their cults.

>>18067603
>jew whose job it is to trick American evangelicals into supporting Israel as useful idiots says this
shocking

>>18067615
I thought you groypers were larping as catholic? Did you get excommunicated?

>>18067668
What makes you think that disdain for jews who reject Christ is limited to one denomination? They, the jews, are enemies of God because they do not hail the Son as Lord. They, the jews, are traitors in rebellion against the throne of heaven, and for them nothing is owed except that they should be baptized until they see God.

>>18067656
>jew whose job it is to trick American evangelicals into supporting Israel as useful idiots says this
That's literally all christianity is.

>>18067677
Jews who do not hail the Son as Lord are owed nothing because charity according to the means and needs of those that compose the body of Christ does not extend to the jews who have refused to take their place therein.

>>18067675
You e-christians are such larpers kek
Don't boast against the branches.

>>18067685
>Don't boast against the branches.
Good advice for the jew, their branch is a wicked and corrupt wand wielded by their devil.

>>18067684
>>18067686
>e-christian doesn't even recognize his own scripture
kek
Anyway, pearls to swine and all that...

>>18067693
Oh I recognize the verses whose meanings you did not understand, or knowingly perverted in order to assert your lies. You will find no fool here to pervert, best take your poison someplace else to sell, jew.

>>18067685
>dude look one time after slaughtering all the jews people felt bad and stopped killing them for a while
...this is you proof that Christians and Jews are bffs?

>>18067699
>groyper e-christian literally thinks christianity slaughtered all the jews while worshipping the claims of a genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew
meanwhile in reality

>>18067697
>jew
Okay, one more chuckle out of the lolcow. Is the primary author of the new testament lying when he calls himself a jew?

>>18067709
ethnic jew, sure, but what does that matter? all are children of God in Christ. But followers of jew religion, they are outside of salvation.

>>18067705
>meanwhile in reality
Yes, lets talk about reality. Reality is that the followers of jew religion have been righteously persecuted for their abhorrent beliefs and practices for the last two-thousand years. Sure, they are occasionally protected from persecution but those brief reprieves are the exceptions and not the norm.

And who is it that persecutes these jews for their practice of their jew religion, it is none other than Christians in almost all cases.

>>18067732
Being expelled out of France 7 times just means they were tolerated 8 times.

>>18067728
So the religion brought to you by a jew is not a jew religion?

>>18067735
Yes, and that should cause the jew to feel shame. Having been allowed so many opportunities to do right, but instead doing wrong and being righteously persecuted for their violations of their own Law. Their guilt, the guilt of the jews, is written in the record of how many chances they have been provided to change their ways.

>>18067739
Why should they feel shame? You cucks let them do it again and again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

>>18067738
Obviously it is not, the practice of Christian religion is not at all like that idolatrous devil worship which the jews perform in vain.

>>18067732
>posts a list that starts with a bunch of pagans
>they are occasionally protected from persecution
lmao expelling jews is just normal goy behavior you retarded groyper
writing laws that protect them is uniquely abrahamic behavior
cope seethe dilate etc

>>18066691 (OP)
It checks out with Tatian, an early Christian proselytizing to Greeks, who outright says their gods are demons.

>>18066694
It isn't by far the simplest explanation because 95% of religious teachings explain nothing about nature whatsoever.

>>18067742
>Why should they feel shame?
Because they have failed to behave according to their Law and so have been righteously punished by their God many times. They should feel shame, and they should fear for their lives if they believe in what they preach.

>>18067745
Jews have never succeeded in protecting themselves from the divine punishment for violating their Law, no law of man can shield them from the righteous scouring that results from their failure to be found holy.

>>18067709
>Saul is on his way to kill Christians
>Jesus appears to him and converts him
>180 in life
>he changes his name to Paul
>weeps for Judea because he thinks they're all hellbound now
>dedicates his life to preaching the gospel to Gentiles
>tells them NOT to circumcise or observe dietary laws
>gets beaten half to death, goes back
>more death threats, goes back
>is brutally executed, never renounces his faith in Christ Jesus even in the last moment
And to you this is all part of a calculated Jewish scheme that tricked all of Europe for 1,000s of years to come? You're giving the Jews a supernatural amount of credit by believing this. It's a true story.

>>18067754
>bla bla bla two more weeks
As I said
>cope
>seethe
>dilate
>etc

>>18067755
>It's a true story.
That's great, but is the primary author of the new testament lying when he calls himself a jew?

>>18067766
differentiate between jew ethnicity and jew religion, or reveal that your lies require obfuscation of that distinction

>>18067764
your house is built upon sand and you will be washed away, see for yourself the history of the floods >>18067732 and make yourself holy or be destroyed when the next comes

>>18067770
I thought it was obvious that "jew" is an ethnos; judaism and christianity are religions created by people of jewish ethnos.
Now, is the primary author of the new testament lying when he calls himself a jew?

>>18067771
See >>18067764
Enjoy your jew religion, groyper.

>>18067777
>is the primary author of the new testament lying when he calls himself a jew?
ethnic jew, sure, but what does that matter? all are children of God in Christ. But followers of jew religion, they are outside of salvation.

Christian posters are bots

>>18067785

>>18067728

>>18067744
>things made by jews aren't jewish

>>18067845
You not liking the answer does not mean it is not the answer. Ask again, if you want to hear the answer again.

>>18067848
They can not claim to have made it, it does not answer to them.

>>18067902
they still are.

>>18067902
why you hate the jewish root. It is acutally from paul who is fucking jew shit. Christian is insecure when they say about the root of their religion. No fucking major religion who deny the root like you.

>>18067922
They are not the root. Their branch is a wicked and corrupt wand wielded by their devil.

>>18067926
sorry bro. I don't care the fucking zelous like you say. Paul is fucking jew. He creating the fucking religion for you. Different branch but the same root jew people. What a shit religion.

>>18067929
ethnic jew, sure, but what does that matter? all are children of God in Christ. But followers of jew religion, they are outside of salvation.

>>18066691 (OP)
Bait thread likely, but in all reality humans did nothing wrong in building Babylon. Read the verses. There is no allegation of hostility by humans in uniting and working together. It is not even implied so. All that is said is that "nothing will be kept from them", which we could speculate as to what that may imply. And so transgression is initiated against humanity deliberately by the "lord" in question, who says "Come let *us* go down and confound their language." It is interesting how mankind is conditioned to only respect power and its means of subjugation, rather than what is righteous in freedom and unity alike, as a result of this event alleged. And to this day the stockholm syndrome continues. If God is merciful and perfect as we might hope, it sure as shit isnt what is spoken of in any of the religions whatsoever. Or this entire phase is the 8th kingdom deception of revelation and none are the wiser to it, which would make sense concerning "deceiving the very elect". Makes more sense than what most believe. At least to me. It would have been different if Babylon had waged war against the elohim but that is never mentioned. Only that they feared their power or otherwise learning of things they sought to keep from them. Condemning, if you ask me.
>inb4 humans have no right to speak up to what is just for the Lord to do!
You insult the one true God and reveal yourself a submissive bootlicker at once.

>>18067934
no one care the fucking shit your religion say. It's metaphysical. I am atheist i care about the fact. Buddhism say that Muslim say that. They don't deny the root. Only christian like you feel insecure. Why you hate jew so much. They are creating fucking christian religion and they the most ethinic to win nobel. Accept the truth and respect them.

>>18068007
jeet bot getting flustered
jidf not sending its best

>>18068020
tao là người việt nam. Your fucking christard is subhuman. Only abrahamism have this fucking jew plague in their mind. You are schizo.

>>18068020
jew paul make your dick not fucking circumcised but some how you hate all fucking jew people? Do you read the fucking bible or you love hitler so much that you hate them and using christian to justify?

>>18068020
no matter you do , you follow the religion that jewish people creating.

>>18068024
>>18068028
>>18068031
They can not claim to have made it, it does not answer to them.

>>18068035
no one claim to creat religion as oh i am buddha i creat buddhism or some shit or i am mohamed i creat muslim. Only you think that christard and cope like they don't claim so it not their creating religion invention. And people still say that jew people creating christian. Do you think your fucking barbarian can creat that religion? you don't have book in that period.

>>18068035
No, the Prophet Muhammad did not claim to create Islam; rather, he is believed by Muslims to be a prophet who was sent to guide humanity back to the original faith of God (Allah) that was preached by all previous prophets. According to Islamic belief, Muhammad was the messenger who received divine revelations from God, which are recorded in the Quran, and is considered the final prophet in a long line that includes Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.
And people still say that is arab invention. Only christard like you think otherwise. Accept the truth.

>>18068035
>yes, jews made it
>jes can not claim to have made it
e-christians are schizos, bots and derad glowies

>>18067677
Who The Fuck Talks Like This What The Fuck Are They High Or Something?

>>18066691 (OP)
>From the Christian perspective
Seems like an imperial question.
Can't he just do a survey and ask Christians what they believe?

It's not like there is a fact of the matter

What does he even mean? If we asked the Pope?
If we traveled 1900 years in time and did a survey on people in ancient Israel? Is he trying to guess how they would answer?
What the fuck is "the Christians perspective"?

>>18067755
>never renounces his faith in Christ Jesus even in the last moment
Where does this idea come from? Is that how the Roman justice system works, you tell them you were just making stuff up, then they let you go?

Besides, how do you know what he didn't renounce his faith, and the Romans killed him anyway? Why would they let him go, if he had been a continuing pest to them
it's not like they killed him for no reason
in the case that Paul renounced his faith, and was killed anyway. I would expect there to exist zero evidence of that

And even if it was the case that it was important for the Romans to get Paul to renounce his faith. Why would the Romans just lie about it?
"That Paul guy, renounced his faith. Then died, man was old."

This story just sound so made-up

>>18068423
>imperial
;(
whatever

>>18068423
>Is it theologically plausible given Christian scripture and belief
>>18068426
None of the OG Christian martyrs renounced their faith. And yes, they were given a chance to burn incense for the Caesar and call him "son of god" to renounce. Many of them were starving and shown a buffet of food and when that didn't work, a litany of torture instruments.

>>18068437
>Is it theologically plausible given Christian scripture and belief
There is no fact of the matter, Christians can just pick whichever option they feel like.
How you going to argue against that? "Well, I feel the other way.."

>>18068601
It's not about feeling. Either the scripture permits it or it doesn't.
>>18067948
The rebellion of the Tower of Babel is that God had just told people to spread to the ends of the earth and multiply. They instead decide to congregate and build this tower. Their motivation for doing so is up to speculation, but it would have been a ziggurat, which historically involve human sacrifice. The idea of them was for a god to come down and talk/give them something, so we could also speculate they had prideful in thinking that God would be their personal cosmic butler.
But we do know from scripture that disobeyed by doing the exact opposite of what God told them to do.

>>18068426
>Where does this idea come from?
>>18068437
>None of the OG Christian martyrs renounced their faith.
Don't forget that the Romans threw the poor martyrs into cages with bears and eagles and masturbation machines, and made them fire ballista through walls and the bolt would curve back and hit them oy vey
It's unbelievable, but it happened.

>>18069346
Okay, so what's your take on the matter? Are pagan gods real or not?
Scripture does not interpret itself

>>18068426
>Where does this idea come from? Is that how the Roman justice system works, you tell them you were just making stuff up, then they let you go?
Yes, that is literally how it worked. The purpose of Christian persecution was to destroy Christianity, if you apostatized you were spared not because they valued your life but because your survival at that point was useful to them to incentivize further apostasies and to undermine the faith of those who thought you a believer. Thank you for discrediting yourself by announcing your own ignorance like this.

>>18069516
never happened

>>18068426
>This story just sound so made-up
Bruh, I believe in talking donkeys. I am the most gullible retard.
We are not the same.

>>18069516
>useful to them to incentivize further apostasies
Right!
So it seems like, even if this happened, it would be in the Romans' interest to make up a lie about Paul recanting

It makes no sense that there should exist real historical evidence of Paul not recanting, if that wasn't what Rome wanted,
It would be so easy for Paul's dungeon keepers to lie about his final moments.

What DOES make sense, is that Christians would make up stories about how cool and awesome their founders were, and then those stories makes it in to Christian tradition.
It sounds a lot better if Paul died a martyr never recanting his faith. Than Paul just unceremoniously dying because he was a rabble rouser.

>>18069665
Notice that this level of mental gymnastics and history denial is not required to refute other religions, like Islam. People just go "that's evil and dumb" and feel no need to get into the weeds like this. With Christianity, you have to split hairs. You have to lie, distort, revise history, or reframe everything from a novel worldview. And it always has this emphatic insistence rather than casual denial. It almost seems like Christ denial originates from a supernatural anger that animates people. Very interesting.

>>18069706
lmao, what history am I denying?
There's no sources for this stuff, it's just Christian tradition
This is on the same level as saying the resurrection was an historical event, because Christians say it happened

wanna try to engage with the topic now? or you gonna keep pissing and moaning

>>18069706
>People just go "that's evil and dumb"
Christianity IS evil and dumb. But then you go:
>but this unquestionable extraordinary historical event happened so you must obey my genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew!
So then we go:
>may we see the extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claim?
And then you piss and shit yourself.

No, but seriously, if it was in Roman interest to have Paul recant (as you say)
Why wouldn't they just lie about him having done exactly that?

>>18069795
>>18069760
Jesus rising from the dead is a historical fact. He has countless eye witnesses and more historical record than any person in antiquity. After the crucifixion, the apostles are scared and in hiding. Defeated, thinking it's over. Then something happens that make them 180 and boldly proclaim Jesus to the death. Even atheist Biblical scholars admit that "something weird" happened to cause this. They go to great lengths like "mass hallucination" to explain this even though this has never happened anywhere else. Not to mention Christ foretold this would happen. Not to mention He also foretold the destruction of the Second Temple, subsequent sack of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the Jews into the nations. Not to mention He fulfills countless prophecies of His coming from the Old Testament.
Paul rather recklessly says in Corinthians "If Christ didn't rise from the dead, then your faith is futile" in a time when both the Romans and the Jews wanted to destroy this growing faith. They would have had the body if it wasn't true. Paul hinges the entire movement on this claim when Jesus had no shortage of hostile contemporaries eager to produce evidence to the contrary, and they couldn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-_azt-_CKQ

>>18069817
No, you're right.
We should be rationally compelled to believe there was a flying Jew 2000 years ago, because people tell stories about a flying Jew.

>>18069989
Those are semi-extra-meta-ordinary claims, please see the annex about how those are handled.

>>18069913
>They would have had the body if it wasn't true.
What's most probable, man rising from dead, or, Romans not hanging on to Jesus' body 20+ years after his death?

Besides, this runs into the same plot holes as your stories about Paul.
If it was in Roman interest to drag Jesus body through the streets, why wouldn't they just show some random dead body and lie about it being Jesus?
It's not like anyone would be able to recognize it.

>>18069913
>Jesus rising from the dead is a historical fact
Wow, is that true?

>>18066691 (OP)
>Their gods are often evil and making mistakes, even interbreeding with humans. Sounds a lot like in Genesis when the "sons of God" bred with people and created the nephilim
The book of Enoch names one of the Nephilim Gilgamesh, so whether this is the intention of the author of Genesis or not, it's clear that many jews in the ancient world probably thought something similar.

>>18069913
>proceeds to piss and shit himself
BEHOLD, for my prophecy has come TRVE! >>18069795

Seriously anon, stop blindly trusting jewish historical claims. Especially the ones you're legally obligated to believe.

>>18069817
I'm not an atheist and in fact consider christianity to be proto-atheism. But yes, I do apply basic logic and source criticism when I hear people tell stories about things I can't verify.
Supernatural events and miracles are by definition extraordinary claims. So I'd like some extraordinary evidence.

>>18070017
>What's most probable
That the guy is made up. Saul even says that he has learned nothing about jesus from any man, has discovered him in the scripture just like all the other apostles, etc.
The whole myth is jewish midrash written generations after the "events".

>>18070235
What definition would that be? Obviously none, Anon. There is no scientific category called "extra-ordinary claims" or "extra-ordinary evidence". It's a rhetorical device that Hitchens popularized that has nothing to do with basic logic whatsoever. But have it your way. Extra-ordinary evidence requires extra-ordinary methods and extra-ordinary effort. Become a mystic and see the supernatural for yourself.

>>18070242
>Obviously none, Anon.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/extraordinary
>Become a mystic and see the supernatural for yourself.
Are you illiterate? I'm not an atheist.

>>18070273
>extraordinary
See how it doesn't list "a type of scientific claims" as one of the meanings?
>>Become a mystic and see the supernatural for yourself.
>Are you illiterate? I'm not an atheist.
I didn't call you an atheist. I showed you how the "extraordinary" rhetoric is logically meaningless and can be bent both ways.

>>18070279
I understand that you're just practicing your rabbinical legalese and appear to have some random hard-on for the word 'extraordinary', so let's try this again, shall we:
>[Very unusual] claims require evidence [greater in degree than the usual].

>>18070417
>you're just practicing your rabbinical legalese
No, I'm calling it out.
>[had to switch dictionaries]
If you want to go down that route, we can. But first I'll ask you to re-iterate my point back to me, because I'm not sure you understood what it is I'm pointing out.

>>18070427
>had to switch dictionaries
You went too far. Great bait until then though.

>>18070430
>No, I can't re-iterate your point
Take care!

FACT: Jesus rose from the dead
FACT: Jesus is coming back
FACT: You are offered eternal life by faith in Him and turning away from sin (continuous repentance)
FACT: The moral law is written on your heart
FACT: The reason you won't believe is because you're doing something against the moral law and trying to bury hide your guilt and shame of it

>>18070749
Why do you think any of this is true?

>>18069913
there's not a single historical source that isn't the bible that describes the resurrection outside of "there are christians and they believe a dead guy resurrected"

>>18070749
Have fun burning.

>>18070829
Tick tock ;)

>>18070832
*Twang!*
Those demon cocks just got stiffer

>>18070827
How could there be an eye witness to the resurrection that wouldn't become a Christian?
Where would such a report go if not the Bible?
>WAIT we better not canonize this one so in 2,000 years some guy that refuses to believe will have one less excuse to not believe
>actually never mind, he wouldn't believe anyway so let's keep it

no

>>18071898
NTA. Not all historical records are eye witness accounts, and not all historical records of such a hugely important event could have been found by the church in the following few centuries. Additionally, plenty of early christian texts were eliminated from the new testament when it was created in the late 4th century, so your argument makes no sense from any angle.

The basic point is that there exists zero contemporary documents saying something like
>since yesterday, a bunch of jews have been saying that some guy rose from the dead and they refuse to go to work so I've had to hire Syrians instead
or
>according to my delivery guy, this month in jerusalem, a bunch of zombies started roaming around for a few days, which caused a delay in my grain shipment
or
>the jews are currently infighting over a guy who calls himself their messiah, I think this will lead to problems in the region
or whatever.

>>18071898
There are no eye-witnesses accounts of the risen Jesus in the Bible except Paul's vision

>>18072325
Besides the 4 gospels (which are accounts even if handed down orally at first), the writers of the epistles testify to the risen Jesus:
1st John 1:3: “that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you”
1st and 2nd Peter: “through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” ... “who raised him from the dead and gave him glory” ... “we were eyewitnesses of his majesty”

>>18071898
so you agree that there isn't a single extra-biblical source that references the resurrection? the bible is true because the bible says it's true?
also very succinctly put here: >>18072202

>>18072373
>the bible is true because the bible says it's true?
A collection of evidence doesn't become one single piece of evidence when compiled. You're using a fallacy.

>>18072202
>>the jews are currently infighting over a guy who calls himself their messiah, I think this will lead to problems in the region
Why would they write something like this down? There were dozens of people who were claiming to be messianic figures. You don't seem to understand the era and subsequently your criteria for evidence are way off.

>>18066691 (OP)
Yep, the archangels are the pagan gods

>>18072380
so are the biblical authors recognized historians now that wrote in depth about other subjects, not pertaining to the christian faith? why do people say "in the bible" before citing the names of the authors directly? it's almost as if the collection of evidence you're referring to is widely perceived as a single source, curated and edited by the same establishment with a vested political and financial interest in maintaining the story.
>>18072386
people did write it down though. also, you're addressing one of the possible scenarios and ignoring the other two because you know no such record exists. "notice how you have to split hairs" much?

>>18072437
>are the biblical authors recognized historians now
Are the businessmen in >>18072202 's example? Let's not shift the goalposts.
>the collection of evidence you're referring to is widely perceived as a single source
And if perception were an argument, you'd have a great one. But that would be a tragic line of argumentation, since it would be a question of time till someone uses it to argue "peer review? as in that science says science is true? heh, use some external sources, buddy"

>>the jews are currently infighting over a guy who calls himself their messiah
>people did write it down though
Not really, no. Josephus writes something like this down once the movement gains enough momentum to distinguish it from the run of the mill messianic cults, but the idea that someone would write down "oh boy a guy claims to be a messiah and jews are split over it" is very close to a plain admission of historical ignorance.
>you're addressing one of the possible scenarios and ignoring the other two because you know no such record exists
I'm pointing out the criteria are set from a place of misunderstanding. If you're genuinely telling me that "there was a no-call-no-show of that particular apostle" is something you expect to find in writing from ancient Palestine and that it carries more weight than the various sources compiled in the Bible, I'm all ears.

>>18072368
Anonymous eye witness accounts?

>>18072475
No?

>>18072477
Does the authors of the synoptic gospels say who they are?

>>18072538
They likely did introduce themselves before giving the testimony, sure. If you're asking whether the name is part of the testimony body of text, then no. It's part of the name of the testimony.

>>18072457
>businessmen
conceded, but they'd have no vested interest to mention it in any inflated manner, and they haven't.
>peer review?
the concept of an external source cannot apply to peer review - peer review is specifically a process of independently verifying a claim, including with external sources to confirm the claim. Science is not a document and it cannot insist on its own validity in the way you're describing it.
>Not really, no.
didn't josephus write about athronges and simon son of joseph? the latter having been written of on some piece of stone too, not just josephus.
> more weight
not more weight, just any weight, because there's nothing else.
i have no problem with you committing that the last step is actual faith in that it happened and that just the bible is enough for you, but you have to admit it and not do this dance of trying to do without

>>18072558
>Science is not a document
It is a source. If something being perceived as one source is a base for an argument, all of science (including peer review) becomes circular. You have pointed out why that is not the case. Which means that something being perceived as a single source is not a basis for an argument.
>didn't josephus write about athronges
When they fought Roman and Herod's forces, yes.
and simon son of joseph?
When he burned the royal palace and got beheaded, yes.
Never run-of-the-mill cults.
>> more weight
>not more weight, just any weight, because there's nothing else.
There are multiple witness testimonies compiled in the New Testment. What can you conclude from a no-call-no-show that you cannot conclude from a witness testimony?

>>18072575
>science is a source, just like the bible
i've wasted all this time arguing with a retard and gained nothing

>>18072603
>gained nothing
That one's on you, brother. Your fallacy was called out in detail.

>>18072613
your brain is phallus shaped if you're making the argument that science (a discipline) is a source of something in the same way the bible (a collection of books) is. it's tragic that this board is now overrun with reactionary converts who are retards and/or can't arguein good faith

>>18072627
The analogy wasn't in being a source "in the same way", it was in the invalidity of accusations of circularity on the basis of aggregation of many documents & processes into one term. Again, this was said extremely simply many times over and is an apparent fallacy. It's on you.

>>18072633
>it's not a source in the same way but it is!
your analogy doesn't work because the categorical definitions do not align at all. give me an example of what an external source could be for a scientific claim outside of peer review/scientific method. because in the case of a historical claim, an external source is records confirming the historical claim independently. that's like saying that an external source for peer review is "other" peer review.

>>18072653
The analogy isn't in alignment of categorical definitions. I have just described it in detail. Again, if you leave with nothing, it's on you.

Anyway, I have a compilation of arguments against Christianity in my desktop folder called "The Dense Files". I just added screenshots of what you were saying there and let me tell you... you're just trying to prove TDF correct using TDF. Circular logic. Totally impossible. Now, I could reflect that a multiplicity of arguments and sources being compiled into one folder doesn't actually address their individual validity whatsoever, but instead I'll say "I gained nothing" and throw a tantrum.

God bless

>>18072663
>muh heckin dense files folder!

>>18072386
>Why would they write something like this down? There were dozens of people who were claiming to be messianic figures.
Which we know about because of contemporary accounts like the ones I mentioned. Why are there none for the alleged REAL(tm) jewish messiah?

>>18072575
>science is a source
u w0t m8?

>>18072627
It's tragic that the public discourse is overrun with plebs that derive all their info from news articles, blog and tiktok synopses of pop sci books that the influencer/journalist never actually read in the first place.

Both of you niggers had a decent discussion so far and "reactionary converts" being present here is far better than 4chan being 100% nuatheist because there is discussion in the first place.

>>18072701
It's unlikely there would be contemporary accounts because Jesus ministry lasted 2 years and you are asking for accounts of events in a relative backwater that seemed typical at the time to be preserved while most other documents were lost.

>>18072967
>It's unlikely there would be contemporary accounts
Of the (allegedly) most significant and supernatural event in human history?
We're just going in circles now. We have records of several nobody would-be messias who didn't do any divine magic, but you're telling me that nobody bothered to mention a guy going around doing magic for two years straight except for his immediate followers (who didn't write about it for decades somehow)?
I understand why atheists hate you people.

>>18072997
Can you point me to these records of nobody would be messias so I can compare them?

>>18072701
>contemporary accounts like the ones I mentioned
See >>18072457
>Not really, no. Josephus writes something like this down once the movement gains enough momentum to distinguish it from the run of the mill messianic cults, but the idea that someone would write down "oh boy a guy claims to be a messiah and jews are split over it" is very close to a plain admission of historical ignorance.

>>18072997
>(allegedly) most significant and supernatural event in human history?
Again, those were alleged fairly frequently.
>We have records of several nobody would-be messias who didn't do any divine magic
Please cite the sources stating they weren't doing magic.

I mean this in the most technical and non-personal way possible, but you clearly don't understand the period you're trying to address.

>>18072997
So basically you are claiming that there MUST be third party evidence of a group which was persecuted on local and state level by romans and jews and later muslims (who likely tried to erase evidence of its existence) during the subsequent centuries; that had no immediate impact on wider society and did not start riots, insurrections, etc; that was broadly typical for that time and place; with the most notorius events taking place during scant few years. And all that despite most documents from that era not surviving. And also claim that Josephus, writing 60 years after death of Jesus, is not evidence enough.

>>18073116
Do you think that you are a contemporary to the Franco-Algerian war?

>>18073197
Doesn't Josephus deal with contemporaries accounts? Wiki says Ananius II. So they were merely written down after Jesus.

Also all of my points and thus my argument stand.