Thread 18072545

Why is it that almost nobody, including "fascists", understands Fascism? Especially in philosophy and economics, you almost never see people discuss the True State or the differences between Syndicalism in the RSI vs in Fiume, or really any actual debate about Fascism - Not even the so-called fascists do this. You just see people cry about muh authoritarianism (which isn't the same thing as totalitarianism btw) or muh past worship (which Fascism does the exact opposite of)
At the very least you would expect these "fascists" to be the ones talking about the actual policies and programs of fascism, but you never see that happen.

>>18072545 (OP)
Becuase the term has been broadened so much by both Liberal and Communist sources that it doesn't mean anything anymore. At this point it's synonymous with right wing authoritarianism rather than its own coherent ideology. And in the academic setting they are practically dependant on following this convention, as any Definition of Fascism has to include the Nazis (who besides sharing a similar aesthetig and also being right wing Totalitarian have a completelly different mindset), which conditions any attempt at properly defining the ideology into a surface level analysis to lump Nazism and Fascism under one Umbrella.

>>18072545 (OP)
Because fascism is not an ideology, it's a vague term used for authoritarianism and/or ethnocentrism

>>18072545 (OP)
This. A thousand times this. You are absolutely right, and the reason is because fascism as a modern label is a LARP. The so-called "fascists" you see online are either...

> Edgelords
Just want to trigger the libs and use the aesthetics of power without understanding the underlying corporatist or idealist theory.

> Brainlets
Whose entire ideology is a reaction to the current year. Their philosophy begins and ends with the opposite of whatever a progressive says.

> Schizos
Mix and match 100 different ideologies into an incoherent mess. They'll claim to be fascists while also being monarchists, distributists, and anarcho-capitalists, completely missing the point of the Total State.

They don't get a clue about the True State or Syndicalism because that requires READING. They just want a team to belong to and a strongman to simp for.

>>18072579
Wrong retard.
There is nothing in the doctrines of fascism that includes race.

>>18072573
Another problem is the historical and political Context. Fascism emerged as an Alternative to Liberalism and Communism, both materialistic ideologies and both in the mainstream and academia they are basically the two camps. This leds to people regardless of Education seing fascism under a Materialistic Lense while disregarding the cultural and philosophical aspects of the Ideology. And materialistically, Fascism is a very ,,plain" ideology. Their idea of a State resembles any other Totalitarian State. Amongst its non-liberal Competitors it's not revolutionary, an (ideal) Fascist State works just like a Stratocracy, a Socialist Dictatorship, a Theocratic Regime,... .

It's similar to Religion, Theocracies regardless of affiliation all work under a similar ruleset. The Austrian Ständestaat could also be implemented as a Muslim Dictatorship rather than a Christian one or vice versa. But because they follow different Religious scriptures, nobody makes the mistake of seing Islam and Christianity as the same ideology with only a different aesthetic.

However, Fascism as already said gets compared to the two Ideologies which disregard culture. So any Ideology opposing liberalism and Communism is considered fascist or fascist adjacent.

>>18072587
You forgot
>feds
Assume control, redirect, manipulate,deligitamize.
>leftists
Radicalize and bait for blackmail/justification.

>>18072598
Fascist writings never included race because it was always a given. Every nation at that timeframe was inherently racist, because the notion that there iS oNlY tHE hUMAn RaCE which was a byproduct of decades of Neoliberalism and increasing Globalism didn't exist yet. Even liberal Nations like France subscribed to similar beliefs, because that's the very concept of a Nation: A large group of people who share a language, ethnicity, history and culture which presupposes races.

>It's very good that there are yellow French people, black French people, brown French people. They show that France is open to all races and that it has a universal vocation. But on the condition that they remain a small minority. Otherwise, France would no longer be France. We are above all a European people of white race, Greek and Latin culture and Christian religion.

>>18072640
Wrong. The "human race" thing goes back at least to christianity's "neither Greek nor jew" and becomes very popular in the enlightenment period. That's why you have catholics and abolitionists and what have you using this argument.
The Italian Fascists also didn't really care either way about jews until Hitler made them.

>>18072717
Notice how you didn't address the context of nationality. The notion that a nation's core ethnicity can be replaced and it would remain the same nation is a recent one.

>>18072545 (OP)
Because fascism doesn't exist. Fascism is just a fucking grift.
If atheists were seen as better of than satanists, than fascists are the equivalent to the satanist that is the Nazi

>>18072751
Name one political ideology that isn’t a grift

>>18072827
post war Nazism, more systematic form of Libertarianism, Maoism, Anarchism, Integralism

>>18072602
Which is retarded because communism late stage capitalism and fascism are structurally identical aka a statecorp with full monopoly in which a few select own everything and the average goy prole owns equally nothing

>>18072545 (OP)
>or the differences between Syndicalism in the RSI vs in Fiume
Fiume was Parliamentarian, Syndicalism was Anti-Parliamentarian. In Fiume, the Corporations had representatives sitting in Parliament, under Syndicalism, the Unions and Corporations are the lego blocks that make the post-parliamentarian state.

There you go.

Fascism, in Unistan, is a branch of Zardozianism. As in you have the gun and it is good, now cleanse the nation of filthy brutals.

>>18072839
Anarchism is a grift

>>18072545 (OP)
>At the very least you would expect these "fascists" to be the ones talking about the actual policies and programs of fascism, but you never see that happen.
I think you can study the actual history of these governments, but I think talking about programs is difficult because they didn't stick to their own programs. I think they even prided themselves on not having them except in a perfunctory way, because that is only going to get in the way of action.

>>18072640
>Every nation at that timeframe was inherently racist, because the notion that there iS oNlY tHE hUMAn RaCE which was a byproduct of decades of Neoliberalism and increasing Globalism didn't exist yet.
It existed, they were the communists:
https://youtu.be/76L1pBUw3H8

>>18073338
"Anarchism" is just where the would-be dictators recruit. Presently those dictators are on the Left. But the Right can find plenty of gun nuts too.
Everybody knows libertarianism / anarchism doesn't scale past a small cult compound, but the "antifa" pretend it can, and so do Republicans.

>>18072545 (OP)
Because 'Fascism' is, and has been for a while now, a very handy thought terminating cliche. Particularly among communists the term came to mean 'anything I dislike for any reason', with commies in several European countries referring to social-democrats as 'social-fascists' etc.

It's become more and more prevalent to the point where modern 'liberal' politicians and activists will adopt and broaden the communist definition of fascism mentioned above. You don't have to look far to find western leftists referring to their political opponents as fascists for them not wanting to massively expand the power of the state (a complete inversion of reality), or simply for not hating themselves/their country as much as the leftist does. Unless you're prepared to do some actual reading (of books you probably don't want your friends and family to see you reading) most modern discourse on the subject just boils down to 'HITLER WAS BAD!'.

>>18073609
That makes sense for the people who aren't fascists but why is it that the self-proclaimed ones also have no fucking idea what they are talking about?

>>18073422
>It existed, they were the communists:
lenin shat on whites for using "dark skinned" armenian and greek troops against russians, look it up

>>18073640
I think a lot of self proclaimed fascists today are just reacting to the leftist hyperbole and misuse of the term. I don't think their commitment to the idea or theory goes much further than "it really upsets the people I don't like, it lets me posture and feel edgy, and I like to imagine shooting people I don't like".

>>18072545 (OP)
it's because most of this shit doesn't matter today, a national reconstruction is the only real requirement to be a third positionist today. syndicalism or planned economy or whatever is not really that important, it's just a means to an end.
also all the good fascist political theory places got banned.

>>18074201
Syndicalism and a planned economy result in radically different outcomes ...

>>18072545 (OP)
Because academia is captured by liberals and socialists who refuse to discuss the concepts in good faith.

>>18072717
Just want you to know you’re back casting a post enlightenment idea onto the past when it doesn’t fit. People were certainly not races in pre industrial times. And before the French Revolution you didn’t ask someone “what country are you from” or “whats your nationality/race” because people were subjects of lords who were then loyal to a crown. Sometimes that crown was all the way in Spain or Austria and youre living in the Netherlands. People identified based on their family names, their trades. Maybe a locale. How many last names are trades or city names

>>18072545 (OP)
The problem is the way fascists openly described their own ideology was a bunch of contradictory lies to gain support from the nativist underclass and Christians against international socialism and the liberal establishment. If you want to understand what fascism actually is read Nietzsche and Evola. Mein kampf and the Doctrine of fascism were propaganda slop for the masses.

>>18074891
You're describing the tribes-and-empires dynamic before nation states became dominant? That doesn't mean ethnic tribalism didn't exist.

>>18074632
True

>>18072545 (OP)

Because "fascism" isn't an actual thing. There is no Fascist Manifesto. Fascism doesn't refer to any actual set of laws, form of government, etc. It just means "Government I think is racist" or "Not anti-racist enough".

>>18075847
>There is no Fascist Manifesto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_the_Fascist_Intellectuals

There are plenty of other Fascist Manifestos around, but those are of organization that used the term as an alternative to calling themselves a "Union" or "Mutual aid group".

>>18075847
>There is no Fascist Manifesto
They have like 3 of them

>>18072545 (OP)
>Why is it that almost nobody, including "fascists", understands Fascism?
For the same reasons as LITERALLY every other political movement/ideology, which is that for 99% of the people involved the whole point is just getting to power rather than what to do with it.

>>18072545 (OP)
>Why is it that almost nobody understands Fascism?

Italian fascism, or fascism in general...?

>>18072573
>Because the term has been broadened so much by both Liberal and Communist sources that it doesn't mean anything anymore.

Room temperature opinion, canned.


>>18074891
>>18075123

Monarchism doesn't care what skin you have, as long as you know your place as a serf/slave.
In other words, the nobilities couldn't care less that their subjects were tribal or mixing, just as long the "little people" knew their place or be killed in some way.

>>18075857

Under Benito Mussolini. Italy was a kingdom, had a legislature, Senate, and Supreme Court. Nothing actually fundamentally changed about the form of government or balance of powers or the process for how a law is passed when Mussolini was democratically elected in 1924.

>>18075915
>when Mussolini was democratically elected in 1924.
After marching on Rome and forcing the king to fire the Prime Minister.

>>18075949
Mussolini sat the march out in Milan.

Checkmate, Communist.

>>18075910
>the nobilities couldn't care less
That's nice but the nobilities also had a set of obligations towards their subjects, and there's countless of examples of nobles making concessions to their subjects. You are deluded if you think replacement migration like we see today would have went without a hitch under feudalism.

Bump

Why would you compare and contrast Fiume to the RSI instead of the Kingdom of Italy during Mussolini's consolidation? The RSI was a German puppet state and had a colonial-fashioned extractive apparatus in the practical application of state functionality.

>>18072587
Larping was allways a crucial part of fascism from day one, part of what makes something fascist is this emphasis on symbolic performance and signaling militaristic organisation and readiness to action, theres a theatrical element to it, poetry in motion and so on, this is more important to fascism than whatever the current position is on social issues or tradition or religion or race or anything, thats all ideological fluff, what differs 'true' fascism from pure 'larping' is the readiness and villingnes to use violence, same as any radical movement or regime that is to be believed, which is usualy circumstancial any way and can shift with the winds, the ideological part is left intentionaly vague, again from the very begining, it has to be all-encompasing, the more they zero in on any ideological question the more exclusive it gets, fascim is non-exclusive

>>18076088
Because the RSI was the last true fascist state

>>18072545 (OP)
Because most of them just fall for online discourse, and then they become racist and antisemitic, so they become Neo-nazis (and subsequently don't know anything about National Socialism). Or they become fascist but really just see it as a way for the government to remove foreigners and because it's more tradcath.

>>18076211
>what differs 'true' fascism from pure 'larping' is the readiness and villingnes to use violence
For sure. There are far-right scenes that can be fairly violent and there's an internal MMA sport culture to some of that, but I really think people underestimate the military side of fascism. These guys were walking around wearing quasi-commando outfits adapted from military units during WWI with their war medals on them. But most people talking about fascism on the internet are not ex-soldiers. They might have played as soldiers in a video game, but most men in many countries today don't serve in the military. You'd have more guys like this today in Israel or Ukraine (or Russia to some extent as well). And you can get a new / updaterd futurist aesthetic out of these wars (the futurists loved war!):
https://youtu.be/iFFXBsEQ7SY

>the ideological part is left intentionaly vague, again from the very begining, it has to be all-encompasing, the more they zero in on any ideological question the more exclusive it gets, fascim is non-exclusive
Well it's supposed to be about "unity." Fascism might even be translated as "unity-ism" (although Italian has a different word for unity but that's basically what the fasces represents). It makes me wonder whether some of the LARPers today wouldn't actually like fascism because the unity it sought necessarily implied bringing in a lot of different kinds of people (really) who those LARPers might not like for whatever reason. Italian fascism was also quite popular with Italian Jews.

>>18076559
infact there were local sections of all jewish blackshirts and balila outfits going to hebrew school, it didnt even enter the ideological horison

>>18072942
>Unistan
>Zardozianism
What are you talking about?

>>18074592
yes i know but nobody cares because the elephant in the room is the nationalism issue.

>>18072545 (OP)
I think political terms are just naturally vague and hard to understand. I personally cant even tell what the difference between monarchy and fascism is. Ive tried asking a few people but they didnt know either
It really doesnt help that politics is such a heated topic with propaganda surrounding it everywhere. Anyone who studies it properly must be climbing a mountain with a lot of loose rocks

The problem is the way fascists openly described their own ideology was a bunch of contradictory lies to gain support from the nativist underclass and Christians against international socialism and the liberal establishment. If you want to understand what fascism actually is read Nietzsche and Evola. Mein kampf and the Doctrine of fascism were propaganda slop for the masses.

Bump

>>18075969
>That's nice but the nobilities also had a set of obligations towards their subjects,

The Aztecs aren't the first ones to invent “Flower Wars” to cull people.

>and there's countless of examples of nobles making concessions to their subjects.

Like ius primae noctis, robber knights/barons, tithes, slave work, harassment & abuse “by their betters”...

>You are deluded

Says the serf taking the side of serfdom, feudalism, slavery & their enablers claiming superiority by blood...

>if you think replacement migration like we see today would have went without a hitch under feudalism.

Replacement migration is being done – right now – by monarchies, nobilities, pretenders, and remnant nobilities wanting back their powers & privileges.
All men are created equal.

>>18074952
>>18077108
Why did you write this twice?

>>18074952
>Evola
That guy literaly got bullied out of italy, mussolini thought hes somekind of schizzo faggot, only the ss had time for him, even crowley got the courtesy of being officialy deported, not saying anything about all his stuff im sure he was smart and into all sorts of things, fascists werent big on ezoteric literature, but if youre in any place where right wingers of any ilk come together and you mention evola none of them will know wtf youre on about and if you try to explain it some might think to smash teir beer in your face and they hold the beers dearly

>>18072545 (OP)
You can blame the Soviets for this. They spearheaded the campaign to muddle the definition of Fascism and Nazism as "people who hate Communism."
Modern lefties have never unlearned Russian propaganda, and thus the idea that Fascism is Right-Wing and is a worse form of moderate conservatism despite being a revolutionary ideology persists in the common mind.

>>18077682
Hitler and Mussolini disliked him because he was spilling the beans about what fascism actually was and they wanted to keep it obscured for political reasons. Mussolini was a much more extreme example of this than Hitler where pretty much everything he’d ever said publicly about his beliefs can be taken with a grain of salt.

Mussolini called himself the Lenin of Italy. If you don't get that, you don't get anything.

>>18076211
Yeah but lets not pretend that communism (at least post-Marx) was literally obsessed with the same thing.

>>18075915
It wasn't a real fascism. Mussolini betrayed the legacy of D'Annunzio. Italy was a degenerated corporate state, read "Corporatism Betrayed" by Leone Trotti.

>>18072545 (OP)
Fascist and nazis lost, so they don't get the right to define their ideology by their terms. This is a neoliberal world, so fascism is whatever the neoliberal academia says it is.
If chuds want fascism to mean what they want it to mean, then maybe they shouldn't have lost a war they started (lmao)

>>18077928
This is extremely ironic as "neoliberal" is itself a pejorative coined by detractors of the current order.

>>18077898
Under Fascism, the great leader can not betray you, my friend.

>>18077938
Yes

>>18072545 (OP)
fascism is not real

>>18079627
I don't think that's true

>>18079627
fascism is when republicans racist

The modern left has used that term so wildly it has lost all meaning and just means thing they dont like, and use it to try and shut down their opponents
>secure borders =fascism
>2 genders = fascism
>gun rights= fascism

>>18080103
>....btw we've bended and twisted the definition of racism so much that it means White person that doesn't hate themselves
>also it's not racism when a person of color is doing it to

>>18080114
but white people who hate themselves have a savior complex and are therefore racist too, checkmate chuddy

At a certain point labels get tiring so I just do whatever

Fascism is the natural response to marxist poison

>>18080144
But Fascism is just a form of heretical, idealist Marxism. It only came into existence because of the split between reformist vs revolutionary Marxism in Socialist organizations during the start of the 20th century.

>>18073338
sometimes but not always
mao used to be an anarchist

>>18080144
Reminder that Hitler was a gay incel with a fetish for workers. He did it because the Commies kept cock blocking him.

>>18072545 (OP)
I'm an actual Fascist and I talk about those things, but it's hard to find someone who actually understands what Fascism even is, 95% of people just think fascist means authoritarian.

>>18076518
The RSI was the *only* true Fascist state in history.

>>18080141
Fair

>>18075915
Karl Marx never took over Germany. Are you going to say there is no communist manifesto?

>>18083032
Yes

>>18075910
>Room temperature opinion, canned.
>fascism in general
the irony

>>18072545 (OP)
>>18076518
Fiume wasn't a "true fascist state" by any stretch. It was ruled by D'Annunzio as a military dictator together with an administrative council of local conservative Italian elites and its initial purpose was to press the Italian government for more radical diplomacy. It was supported by various anti-government groups in Italy, including the emerging Fascists, but most importantly at the time by some Nationalist politicians closer to the establishment, for domestic political pressure, as well as a segment of military and veterans, which caused a lot of alarm to the government.

D'Annunzio himself didn't really have much in a way of an ideology or program, except for a particularly romantic view of a national moral regeneration, but after failed negotiations with Italy, he decided to give Fiume more of a universal purpose. His main innovation in this regard was the creation of the "League of Fiume" to fund various national-separatist and liberation movements of "free peoples". Eventually he befriended Alceste De Ambris, a dissident syndicalist that nonetheless did not become a Fascist, and he drafted a libertarian-syndicalist constitution a few month before the demise of Fiume, which wasn't actually put into practice. This constitution was somewhat an inspiration for syndicalists that did join Fascism (but they quickly moved towards endorsing things like a one-party led state) and militant Arditi, sceptical of Fascism, but not much else.