Thread 18073274

I've read that in some places; spain and northern europe, there was a complete male y chromosome replacement. That's sounds super fucking violent to me. Literally murdering all the males and "marrying" the local women. But they went to India or Iran or Greece they seem to judt become the new rulers. Why was it violent in some places? How did they easily take over? Bonus question: did they ever bump into and influence the shang dynasty of China?

>>18073274 (OP)
> y-chrome replacement =/= literal genocide of every male
Studies show it was mostly a slow creep of patrilocal clans over centuries.Local males get outcompeted, not necessarily massacred en masse.

> Why was it violent in some places?
Depends on local density and social structure. In some places they became a ruling class, in others they fully replaced the population.

> How did they easily take over?
Steppe dudes had horses and wheels, massive social/military advantage.

> Bonus question: did they ever bump into and influence the shang dynasty of China?
Zero evidence. They were separated by entire continents and mountain ranges.

>>18073274 (OP)
I think in Afghanistan it was also damn cruel.

>>18073374
Afghanistan is still tribal, how likely is it that the haplogroup bottleneck dates back to the IE invasions instead of one R1a Pashto clan/tribe just gaining the upper hand and outbreeding everyone else more recently?

It's strange how the more backwards the region was, the more violent the replacement was. Same thing happened to IE in the Steppe. The Turkics completely wiped those subhumans out.

>>18073274 (OP)
I think you could benefit from a little neutrality in your perspective. Y-DNA replacement is a real phenomenon but you need to ask yourself if we have enough data to give clarity to the details for how it happened.

1) it was violent
1.1) IEs were the aggressors
1.2) IEs were not the aggressors

2) it was not violent
2.1) they outcompeted the males by taking more women
2.2) they reproduced more than non-IEs which caused haplogroup replacement

Of course it doesn't have to be described in binary, black and white terms, but by investigating either extreme you are performing your due diligence to research accurate history.

>>18073380
I don't know. I think all eastern Iranians were originally a majority R1a. But this is not so true for western Iranians.

>>18073382
>The Turkics completely wiped those subhumans out.
It seems that many Turkics destroyed the Aryans with the help of their women's vaginas, lmao.

>>18073274 (OP)
There's no evidence for genocide

>>18073274 (OP)
European Sarmatians were brutalised and how their male lineages changed entirely, which lead to a massive orgy between Iranian females and Georgian males

>>18073274 (OP)
The appearance of mass graves containing dismembered bodies all over Europe during the IE take over shows that it was incredibly violent.

R1b basically murdered all J2, I1, I2, and G men then proceeded to rape their women right next to their corpses.

>>18073676
>mass graves
Can I see an example?
Are the graves typically representative of villages, lone family homesteads, towns, or what?

Whatever happened in the wake of warfare, you still have to admit that they must have taken ownership of these women in the end or else the children wouldn't have spoken IE. Is that what happened to the Basques though? Mass rape then abandonment?

>>18073667
In fact, the Caucasian Alans (not to be confused with the Volga Sarmatians) were a disparate population. The mountainous portion were simply assimilated Kartvelian aborigines (modern Ossetians have far less IE ancestry than Chechens and Dagestanis), while the steppe Alans were assimilated by the Kipchak invasion and simply adopted a Turkic language (modern Karachay-Balkars). It is noteworthy that their R1a (Z2123) differs from the R1a common among the neighboring Nogais (Z2125), who appear to be true descendants of the Kipchak people.

>>18073711
I clarified this because the Nogais are also R1a bastards, but their R1a belongs to a different lineage.

>>18073696
Sure

>Analysis of more than 3,000 bones found at a site in Somerset, England, called Charterhouse Warren suggested unidentified assailants killed men, women and children before butchering and cannibalizing them between 2210 and 2010 BC.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/12/21/science/britain-bronze-age-killings-science-newsletter-wt

>>18073638
This

>>18073733
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/darker-angels-of-our-nature-early-bronze-age-butchered-human-remains-from-charterhouse-warren-somerset-uk/93EBB135C857C7B7992FC80A4ED927AF
>At least 37 men, women and children were killed and dismembered, and probably partly consumed, before their remains were cast into a 15m-deep shaft in the limestone plateau of the Mendip Hills together with a faunal assemblage dominated by domestic cattle.
>This was probably a single event occurring sometime between 2210 and 2010 cal BC.
Bell Beakers started arriving around 2450 BC so this seems to imply coexistence of IEs and EEFs for a considerable length of time. The study is weird. I scanned over it but I didn't notice any genetic analysis. They just claim the victims were "local". Were they EEFs or not?

>The history of the twentieth century shows only too well that inter-ethnic violence can be episodic, explosive and extreme. Yet, while there is compelling genetic evidence for large-scale population replacement in Britain beginning in the Chalcolithic, c. 2500 cal BC (Olalde et al. Reference Olalde2018; Armit & Reich Reference Armit and Reich2021), this pre-dates the assemblage from CWFS by some three centuries. The movement of individuals with steppe ancestry from the continent was likely considerable from the outset, and there is currently no genetic evidence to suggest the co-existence of communities with markedly different ancestries that might have given rise to tension and conflict

>>18073274 (OP)
>the reason for the massacre is unknown, it is possible that it was related to the expansion of the Corded Pottery groups, which may have resulted in violent conflicts
>All individuals had been brutally killed by blows to the head
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1820210116

Does anyone have other studies to share? I think we can make a collection and argue quantitatively how violent the expansions were.

>>18073676
This. There are many mass graves all over Europe full of extremely violent massacres that even show signs of cannibalism.

No male population in Nature allows itself to be "replaced" without a fight, or in such short order.

Seems like the horses, the chariots and the Kyros-style warband tactics, just wrecked the local Euros who likely only had small populations to begin with and nowhere to run b/c they were backed up against the Atlantic.

>>18074599
Sources?

>>18073630
Copecel, ancient turkmen come from ANE, they also carried R1a ydna

>>18074599
you seem to forget neolithic farmers had a famine

>>18073274 (OP)
>Pre-Indoeuropean Farmers were peacefu-
OH NO NO NO NOOO
https://youtu.be/X1PduS2ocl8?t=93

>>18075631
During the Neolithic Revolution a dependency on land agriculture fucked up society as well. It resulted in a limited diet, which in turn led to poorer health for the average person, a decrease in height and strength (manlets) and susceptibility to new diseases (all archaeologically proven). Nonetheless, populations grew rapidly, because people ate and shagged which is all you need. Population density increased, leading to social strife and more disease. When populations grew too big, demographics were culled though ritual warfare and human sacrifice .When there were labor shortages, kinsmen or neighbors were enslaved. By this point there was no way out. The multi-disciplinary approach of the hunter-gatherer way was replaced by labor specialisation. People lost skills and became dependent on civilisation. Self-sufficiency was lost. Sound familiar?
Yet, after 8 millennia, here we are.

We now know from genomic evidence that with the onset of the Neolithic Revolution the effective (i.e. breeding) male population fell dramatically even as general population exploded, and at peak there were SEVENTEEN breeding females to one breeding male. Indicative of whole clans or tribes having all their males exterminated and females seized and / or extreme social stratification in breeding rights among those first settled humans and farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_History_of_the_Earliest_States

https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success/

>>18075631
During the Neolithic Revolution a dependency on land agriculture fucked up society as well. It resulted in a limited diet, which in turn led to poorer health for the average person, a decrease in height and strength (manlets) and susceptibility to new diseases (all archaeologically proven). Nonetheless, populations grew rapidly, because people ate and shagged which is all you need. Population density increased, leading to social strife and more disease. When populations grew too big, demographics were culled though ritual warfare and human sacrifice .When there were labor shortages, kinsmen or neighbors were enslaved. By this point there was no way out. The multi-disciplinary approach of the hunter-gatherer way was replaced by labor specialisation. People lost skills and became dependent on civilisation. Self-sufficiency was lost. Sound familiar? Yet, after 8 millennia, here we are.

We now know from genomic evidence that with the onset of the Neolithic Revolution the effective (i.e. breeding) male population fell dramatically even as general population exploded, and at peak there were SEVENTEEN breeding females to one breeding male. Indicative of whole clans or tribes having all their males exterminated and females seized and / or extreme social stratification in breeding rights among those first settled humans and farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_History_of_the_Earliest_States

https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success/

>>18075631
This, end of the thread

>>18073374
That's pretty bad. Unless there was almost nobody there to begin with. Europe was populated. So was India amd Iran. Don't know anything about Afghanistan.

>>18073382
Not really. The turks mixed with them. It's why many turks, the real turks living in central asia have tons of indo ruropean dna. But you know white genetics, recessive as hell so they don't look like it. Although some do.

>>18075631
that looks like a comfy consensual human sacrifice, a wartime mass grave would be all randomly heaped up with no posing the corpses or adding stuff

>>18073638

This. Unlike parts of Europe. R1 didn't replace the previous haplogroups. Instead it lived side by side with them.

>>18076444
There is little trace of IE culture in Central Asia and the Caucasus. They got completely raped and destroyed. Not counting European mongrel Turkish people, Turkics have more in common with Chinese from their dress to their cuisine to their religion and high culture than they do with Europeans.

>>18073382

>The Turkics completely wiped those subhumans out.

Yikes. If that was true all the Turkic groups should have the same DNA. Which they don't.

>>18076487
Some got Iranicized, some got Russified, some became European Turks. That doesn't change much. Dagestanis worshiped a matriarch before being converted to Islam by the sword. Turkics worshiped a furry. IE died there. The mere parallel of both nations being nomadic invaders is not evidence of IE continuation no matter how much you want it to be.

>>18076480
>There is little trace of IE culture in Central Asia and the Caucasus.
Nigger what? Ossetians in the Caucasus and Wakhi people in Tajikistan/China/Northern Afghanistan are direct linguistic descendants of the Scythians, also Yaghnobi is a living descendant of Sogdian. These languages were a lot more widespread during the Middle Ages as well, so the decline was definitely more gradual than you give it credit

>>18076502

I hate to burst your bubble but most Western "Turks" have more IE DNA than they do Turkic DNA.

>>18073696
I've read that maybe the eutruscans anc basque simply thought their sons and daughters their mother language. Not the fathers language. They are the only two groups whose languages survived the IE invasion. It's weird but only plausible explanation.

>>18075631
>>18076022
True, true. The farmers were actually violent underdeveloped savages—the spiritual equivalent of Middle Eastern terrorists on a short fuse, ready to blow up at any given moment. Then the noble Indo-Europeans came to Western Europe with their cattle hoping to peacefully coincide with agriculturalists who made no use of the grassy pastures away from rivers.

At first, interactions were peaceful and the outlook was optimistic. The Indo-Europeans would trade meat and milk while the farmers traded grain, eggs, and pottery, but strife was inevitable. The ne'er-do-well farmers were quick to hold grudges. A couple cows would wander off and graze on the farmers' crops. Princip must have had a past life as a cow, because that's all it took to set off Europe's Bronze Age war. Innocent shepherd boys were mercilessly slaughtered in bouts of mindless monkey rage. They shouldn't have done that. The honorable *koryos took swift action. Like cowboys they mounted their horses and raided the flea ridden-mudhut villages at night. All the farmers were rounded up and bound with bronze chains. Any who tried to flee were caught by lassos.

The farmers were put on trial with a jury of their peers. The sentence was exile.
>You are hereby banished to the south.
There was one problem though. The women refused to leave.
>Please let us stay with you. We're tired of living in filth and dying of COVID because of malnutrition. This disgusting bread and porridge is making our teeth fall out. We wish we could have steak.
Since they had taken no part in the atrocities their request was granted. Each Indo-European man soon had 6 concubines, and that's how Europe was born.

>>18076733
Their only mistake was not beheading smelly pastoralists the moment they made contact with them. The Middle East and Asia didn't hesitate and they are ethnically homogeneous today. Africa, Europe, and the Americas on the other hand are fully mongrelized and writhe with diseases of all kinds. Ignoble indojeets are clammoring for what little influence they have left in their own realms.

>>18073676
Has there ever been a violent takeover of any society like this? Maybe the europeans and Indians? Anyone else?

>>18077272
Well muzzies are a famous example

>>18075611
Agreed. The turks mixed with the indo europeans. Still weird how unbalanced it is. But then again, look at america. There are many more white men with Asian women then vice versa. But many black men with white women than the opposite too. Sooooooo, who knows. Maybe Asian women relaly liked the indo european males.

>>18076464
I wouldnt call total dominance "side by side".

>>18077357

Everyone "prefers" Whites. Always have. Always will.

>>18075648
How the hell is that possible? Like I could understand 1 man and 2 or even 3 women. But 17. That's kind of unbelievable outside of emporerers of giant empires like the romans or persians or turks or China. I think male dominated clans wiped out other clans. Possibly killing the males and keep the women as prizes. Why not?

>>18077431
One rooster. Many hens.

Winner take all.

>>18077415
Ofcoarse. They became the leaders. The aristocrats. A definition of aryan is the nobles. Like a nobility class. Existed above everybody else. Having harems and owning and running the country. Not too shabby for pastoral people.