Thread 18074469

>if god is real then why do bad thing happen
Because there is an order and reason for things beyond the comprehension of a limited being like you. The question presumes that your own limited conception of good and evil and of how the world aught to be ordered is the absolute truth superior to even god which is obviously false.

>>18074469 (OP)
>appeal to mystery presented smugly
Peak christchin philosophy.

>>18074469 (OP)
To presume there's an order or reason or goodness to a being you admit you can't comprehend is unfounded.

Prodigal son analogy says it is more good for a man to fall away and return for him to have never fallen

IE sinful fallen man repenting is more good than a Holy Angel

That's why evil exists.

>>18074469 (OP)
What's more likely: 1) a perfectly good being rules the universe, but he just allows a near infinite amount of suffering and depravity for some unknown reason, or 2) a perfectly good being does not rule the universe?

>>18074510
Suffering is good in the Christian view because it brings man closer to God. Stop applying a secular view suffering to a Christian view of God

Another problem with sceptical theist responses to the problem of evil is that it seems like it would work in any possible universe. Even if the universe was a torture chamber of infinite suffering and evil and nothing else, a theist could still say "the universe being infinitely evil isn't evidence against the existence of God because his reasons are inscrutable".

>>18074469 (OP)
>The question presumes that your own limited conception of good and evil and of how the world aught to be ordered is the absolute truth superior to even god which is obviously false.
Cool so there's nothing bad or evil in the world? That's a relief. But if that's the case, I don't know what God is always getting mad at people for.

>>18074515
It's quite interesting that I don't see christians saying they're looking forward to suffering horrifically in heaven.

>>18074515
What about suffering that doesn't affect someone's closeness to God or even causes them to move away from God?

>>18074515
>Suffering is good in the Christian view because it brings man closer to God.
So if I decided to torture you to death that would be good?
If it's good why aren't you offering yourself up for torture, or going around torturing and murdering other people yourself?
If suffering is good because it brings us closer to God, is he going to reward people increasing the amount of suffering in the world with heaven?

>>18074535
As a Catholic I believe all men are born with original sin and warrant hell (which is not cleansed until baptism, Lutheranism says it doesn't get cleansed ever) and so all suffering is meritted by man.

Suffering as an end to salvation is a great mercy from God that is not necessarily but is most usually available, even if not comprehensible at the moment

>>18074534
I disagree. Carmelite hermits and desert fathers deliberately torture themselves for God

>>18074541
>newborn babies deserve to be tortured in hell for eternity
Yeah anon Christian morality is sick and twisted, we know this already

>>18074552
I genuinely hold that position. That is st Augustine's view. I'm sorry you disagree, many argue he has mercy on them.

>>18074555
>my newborn baby deserves infinite torture because some guy 6000 years ago ate an apple in my jewish fairytale book
Christians are genuinely deranged

>>18074557
I would argue that the new born would have gone to hell if he didn't die (assuming he did go to hell)

I'm sorry you are looking for any excuse to hate God, he is forgiving and one day you may change your mind if you calm yourself a bit.

>>18074544
Imagine you're a Christian. You die and then awaken strapped to a cross. You cry out in despair asking why your God has forsaken you. Then suddenly Jesus appears in front of you, tells you you're in heaven and that you'll be up on that cross forever (and that's a good thing!).
lmao

>>18074541
>all men are born with original sin and warrant hell (which is not cleansed until baptism, Lutheranism says it doesn't get cleansed ever) and so all suffering is meritted by man.
I wonder if there's ever been another religion based on utter misanthropy.

>>18074570
God said in Genesis that God regretted ever making humanity because of how wicked we are. Looking at modern times how could one even disagree? However this is the despair of Judaism you are resentful of. Christians believe Jesus Christ is our redeemer and can lift us out of our depravity.

>>18074571
>Christians believe Jesus Christ is our redeemer and can lift us out of our depravity.
Except for unbaptized toddlers.

>>18074561
Hating God is ascribing obviously absurd and evil theological beliefs to him, like "God thinks it's just to torture babies for infinity"

>>18074574
God doesn't torture babies or anyone in hell. And these are not views I made up they are traditions from 1600 years ago. I'm just telling you the truth.

>>18074577
Hell in your tradition is a place of suffering. If you want to say "God thinks it's just for babies to suffer for infinity" instead it isn't much better.
And there are plenty of absurd and morally repugnant beliefs held by 1600 year old traditions across the world. If your defence of "God thinks it's just for babies to suffer for infinity because an ancestor ate an apple countless generations ago" is appeal to tradition, that's a pretty bad defence.

>>18074585
Respectfully calvanists and Lutheran's believe that God sends people to hell whereas Catholics believe that men send themselves to hell by their own free will. So this does not accurately apply to my position.

>>18074588
How does a newborn infant send themselves to hell by their own free will?
Even if I somehow grant that's possible, why would an infant deserve to suffer infinitely because of one choice?

>>18074588
>actually I believe toddlers send themselves to hell of their own free will
>gods saves some of them but only if their parents had them baptized
nta, lol lmao rofl etc etc

>>18074590
Well I said there was a variety of views.
My view is that they go to hell as a consequence of original sin, but other views are that the original sin is voided because of God's mercy. There is no dogmatic position so people have leeway to believe a variety of things on this matter.

>>18074469 (OP)
>if god is real then why do bad thing happen
Blindness, failing to discern any difference between the light and the dark, allowing the dark to destroy the light. Also known as failing to practice spiritual discernment.

>>18074593
>God thinks it's just for babies to suffer for infinity because an ancestor ate an apple countless generations ago
kekismus maximus fr fr

>>18074600
I hope that there is 2 separate people posting because if it's 1 guy posting the real posts and the free text strawmans that would be disappointing

I'm just posting theological positions I did not write. Black text is asking good logical questions where as green text is just being smarmy, rude and using ebonics. Just relax and learn dude, it's not even a debate it's philosophical discussion

>>18074610
>umm you summed up my position but rudely, you can't do that :((((((
lmao lots of pearl clutching from a guy who believes the perfect being thinks it's just for babies to suffer for infinity because an ancestor ate an apple countless generations ago

>>18074617
I don't know if you perceive me to be arguing with you but you are not a very happy person

>>18074482
The march of scientific progress is another attempt at smug omniscience. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on this, either.

>>18074621
unfortunately we can't all be as happy as the guy who it's just for babies to suffer for infinity because an ancestor ate an apple countless generations ago, and who is happy about this because it's a Good Thing

>>18074633
It's really an esoteric theological disagreement. I haven't even considered this matter for months, it isn't impactful to me or my life.

Are you mad because I believe in an idea? How does this affect you (or anyone) personally? It's just words contained in my brain guy.

>>18074640
>please stop talking about my belief that it's just for babies to suffer for infinity because an ancestor ate an apple countless generations ago, it's making me uncomfortable
lmao you really are a cunt
spineless spiteful golem

>>18074510
>but he just allows a near infinite amount of suffering and depravity
Shit son, where the hell do you live?
I haven't seen all this suffering and depravity in my neck of woods

>>18074649
I'm having quite a good day too! Perhaps it is an out lashing of God because of their depression which is projected onto the whole world.

>>18074649
it's in the place where your god keeps the souls of dead unbaptized infants

>>18074644
I'm just chilling at work riffing about a interesting theological subject and you are being very mad and rude. Im trying to figure out why because the stakes of this interaction are very low and I'm having a pretty good mood. I hope you are doing alright because your resentment towards your life is seeping through your posts.

>>18074654
I hope you got baptized. If not, it's never too late as the Great Constantine demonstrated

>>18074655
>umm sweaty it's like sooo rude of you to point out I believe that it's just for babies to suffer for infinity because an ancestor ate an apple countless generations ago, who hurt you?
lmao
limp passive aggressiveness is a core christian virtue

>>18074660
This isn't passive aggressive I'm being genuine. I don't know how many times you want me to tell you I am not arguing with you

>>18074651
The way I see it, people who fervently deny God's existence are already living in their own personal hell, a world of darkness, hopelessness, cruelty, suffering, sadness, and misery.
It is very much self-inflicted in many cases, in others they succumb to outside demonic pressure and shut the Light out

>>18074664
I have certainly had some pretty low points so I understand. Even as a secular guy I was never really hateful of God but I grew up on the west coast where God doesn't really even exist so I guess for other secular people they have a lot more negative experiences with Christians or something like that

>>18074663
>no please stop talking to me or i'll hit you with another passive aggressive sob post
lmao
while we were having this conversation, over ~300 unbaptized newborns went to an eternal unescapable infinite torment chamber

>>18074670
I just don't really want to engage with you if your arguments are not genuine. It's not worth your time even

>>18074669
If that's true, I guess they are exposed to the wrong kind of Christians hence the reaction.
I know we're seeing all kinds of anti-Christian posts generally larping as neo-pagans of one kind or another, but I very much suspect it's astroturfed as I never see people like that in real life, not even in metal concerts. Maybe op is just here to be a shit-disturber and not to have an actual discussion.

>>18074672
you literally believe that what I just said is not only true but also a good thing
you're only upset because I'm pointing it out

This poster seems to be a liberal and not a pagan because he is mad at God for being insufficiently Christian

>>18074677
1. I am not in upset
2. Can't you just be a real human being for a moment?

>>18074469 (OP)
If God gave us limited capability IE, he didn't give us free will he would be a tyrannical God and not a good God. He gave us free will to do as we wish which in turns means he doesn't make the world a shitty place, we do.

>But why does he let it happen

Second verse, same as the first. He went so sick house on our monkey asses for doing this same shit before to the point he promised not to do it again. Read between the lines, he's saying you're a big boy now and you're on your own for your own fuckups until the times of Revelations. I have no idea what's so hard about this for people to grasp.

>>18074696
according to your view, every single minute, several unbaptized infants awaken to infinite eternal torture like in some demented inversion of childbirth, and this is a very good thing
i want you to think about this every time you look at a clock and thank your lord for devising such a perfect system
have a nice day

>>18074704
I don't think the infancy death rates are that high.

10 babies go to hell a minute. Poor sinful fallen man has brought this up on the world. Quite sad!

>>18074706
~5 newborns every minute globally
the torment engine needs a lot of fresh fuel

>>18074711
Well yeah, I think this is a good thing. Problem?

>>18074713
i appreciate the honesty

>>18074719
The baby would have otherwise committed more evil.

>>18074727
yes, the only way to prevent souls of dead unbaptized newborns from committing evil is to stick them inside an eternal infinite torture chamber
baptized dead newborns are cool tho

>>18074729
Baptized dead babies are Christians, and would have otherwise merited heaven.

>>18074469 (OP)
>your own limited conception of good and evil
But god has passed down and lined out to humanity what constitutes good acts and evil acts. So we are presumably on the same page as god as to what is good and what is evil as long as we are following his word

>>18074469 (OP)
>Because there is an order and reason for things beyond the comprehension of a limited being like you.
Prove it.

>The question presumes that your own limited conception of good and evil and of how the world aught to be ordered is the absolute truth superior to even god which is obviously false.
If this "God" creature has a concept of "good" which permits extreme human suffering, he's obviously evil.

>>18074730
yes, the potential merit of a newborn infant depends on whether it gets sprinkled with water by a pedophile in a dress

>>18074515
>Suffering is good in the Christian view because it brings man closer to God.
Oh, so Heaven is just like Hell, and you get tortured forever there? Hmm.

>Stop applying a secular view suffering to a Christian view of God
Why?

>>18074737
You can't get closer to God if you are the closest possible position to God so you don't need to suffer anymore

>>18074541
>As a Catholic I believe all men are born with original sin and warrant hell
I've always wondered why anyone would believe in such a repulsive, anti-human religion.

>>18074744
What's a pro human religion, gay sex?

>>18074742
Seems like either some people get a free pass or those who didn't sufficiently suffer here will have to work on that in heaven.

>>18074703
>He gave us free will
No he didn't. Free will simply doesn't exist, God or not.

>>18074746
My position as a Catholic is that some people like the Virgin Mary do get a free pass, that is true.

>>18074746
We actually believe in purgatory. Suffering before entering heaven so yes that is actually the Catholic position.

>>18074742
>You can't get closer to God if you are the closest possible position to God
But Heaven has social classes according to the Bible; not everyone is as close to the fake Jewish devilgod as everyone else there.

>>18074755
Disagree, that is actually the saints and angels distinction. But it is beyond my knowledge what is in heaven.

>>18074732
No, he gave humans a completely wrong idea of morality for the plan. Everyday we strive to do good but we actually do evil due to a misunderstanding and thats a good thing. Trust the plan

>>18074469 (OP)
>IT'S YOUR FAULT I CREATED YOU IGNORANT, GOYIM!!!

>>18074623
No it isn't. Science attempts to use neutral language and is a peer reviewed and decentralized ecosystem. Not having an answer to what is beyond your comprehension is something you simply have a hard time internalizing because you can't imagine living your life without one.

>>18074822
Also scientific progress, or theories, are demonstrated through their applications and yet are provisional and open to change at any time. There is nothing final about it.

Science is extremely biased. Scientists will never miss an opportunity to talk about the galaleo myth.

Source: niel de grasse

2. There's peer reviewed studies about trannies and why gay sex is normal

3. The scientific establishment actively suppresses any rival theories because unlike reddit fantasy land thinks they get paid money with strings attached

>>18074843
Thats just PR, no one actually gives a shit about the social normalcy of trannies and sex except the psychology branch. Which exists solely for public relations so the plebs dont burn down everything. It is the only way

>>18074878
I disagree, I think you are under estimating how domineering far left - liberal influence is specifically within colleges.

>>18074918
Out of the hard sciences, its only mildly breaching the outer reaches of biology, the core is still safe for now. Chemistry, physics and maths (if it counts) are completely pure
If they start making gravity gay then its a different story

>>18074927
NONSENSE lmfao. Physics is stuffed to the brim with jews and enlightment rationalists. Even if its not "wokeness" its still compromised faggotry.

>>18074929
There are two kinds of jews, the kind who uses their smarts to trick the goyim and the kind who uses their smarts to make the GPS in your car work
The jews in physics are the latter kind. There is alot of waste going on in physics but it has always progressively becomes less gay, this has not changed

>>18074938
>theres good jews and bad jews
i'm gonna stop you right there buddy

>>18074939
I cant win this anymore, the jews ruined everything again and they arent even in this thread

>>18074469 (OP)
What a cope out. You are just hand-waving any and all suffering by saying "lol u wouldn't get it". If your god's "perfect plan" requires childhood cancer and genocide, then his plan is shit and he is either a monster or not there.

>>18075003
Reddit called, lois. They chatting shit m8

It's funny liberal reddit niggas love to play the heres why God should actually be more good and I don't like God only because he is not good enough and not because I like sinning game

>>18075023
This is of course all while assuming the presupposition what's moral is good which is just torn straight from religion

>>18075023
I dont know how God does it but he is a monumental fuck up for someone who has omnipotence and omniscience. Everyones right to call him out for it, he has absolutely no idea what he is doing
This guy somehow makes choices he regrets when he has future sight. I bet you cant even fathom hows thats possible because i certainly cant. He fails in mysterious ways

>>18075040
Lol ur stupid

>>18075044
I may be dumb and you may be dumber but God is a whole new level of retard. He will consistently outperform both of our most dumbest moments combined. You could have half of your brain removed and you would still be smarter than God

>>18075049
Good post, made me chuckle

Okay cool, by praying for bad things not to happen to me am I cheating the system and increasing the pain of others?
Why make an order where bad things happen at all please enlighten me so I may see God's goodness in leukaemia.

>>18075218
>Okay cool, by praying for bad things not to happen to me am I cheating the system and increasing the pain of others?
No, you're expressing the desire for good, which is holy. "Do not lead us into temptation" is how the Lord Himself prayed after all.

>>18075040
>he regrets
Metaphorical.

>>18075003
>If your god's "perfect plan" requires childhood cancer and genocide, then his plan is shit
It didn't "require" it, but if we chose to leave paradise, the plan can definiely accommodate our choices.
>But... but... he designed the sandbox
And humans made the decision to make it a non-paradise sandbox. If you don't even understand human involvement in the plan then I don't think you should arrive to any conclusions about the plan in general.

>>18075227
Gods plan was so dogshit that 2 naive humans managed to fuck it up to the point where child cancer became a necessity for the plan to continue functioning. There was simply no other way, plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D all the way to plan child cancer almost all got wiped out by newborn humans. Who knows what horrors would await us if they somehow fucked up the child cancer plan too and God had to choose an even worse countermeasure