Thread 18078818

Look at the state of Egypt after God decimated them in Exodus; there is famine everywhere, a sizable chunk of the population is dead, the Pharaoh and his army was killed after the Red Sea returned to its normal course. Realistically this should have decimated Egypt and caused the complete collapse of Egyptian society. However, there is no evidence of any of that, there is no record even claiming that such desolation occurred (and this is a civilization that recorded everything btw). Exodus supposedly happened in the 15th century BC, but according to actual history Egypt was experiencing a golden age during that time, no desolation or anything like that.

There is no evidence of the Israelites wandering in the Sinai for 40 years. I’m not expecting tents or anything, but they would have had to feed people every day or at least every week, yet we can’t find any remains of animal bones or cooking sites. In fact, actual archeological evidence shows that the conquest of Canaan by Joshua never happened and the Israelites were originally Canaanites, Judaism itself has roots in Canaanite paganism.

>>18078818 (OP)
>believe God's word or believe the ramblings of some gooner on 4chinz
I'm going to with the Bible.

>>18078818 (OP)
>Egyptians were notorious for not recording defeats they dont record defeats at the hands of Greeks, who did record the battles.
https://jamesjordanwriting.medium.com/egyptians-were-notorious-for-not-recording-defeats-721311f20919

>>18078844
>God's word
>t. a genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew from Asia Minor
I'm going with the random gooner on 4chinz.

>>18078854
Have fun burning!

>>18078871
Twang!

>>18078818 (OP)
this is what he literally meant

>>18078873
repressed fantasies

>>18078818 (OP)
>Baladi and Copts made the Rosetta stone
You're a lying Atheist. The descendants of Ancient Egyptians are still around, they are still keeping their culture and traditions alive even after many foreign invasions. In Alexandria they had debated the Jews and accepted the Exodus and the fact Hebrews built the pyramids in 2500BC. Even the Gayreeks who studied in Egypt acknowledged that fact and were blown away to the point they left their gay philosophy for the Semitic religions. Ask yourself why would the natives abandon their ancestral great civilization culture copied by everyone for their inferior nemesis jew neighbors unless they had amnesia, or they didn't know about their history and culture which is incorrect because they kept and are still keeping their culture in oral and writing form.
They native accepted the Jew Holiness and you're just an Atheist butt eater hater. Get over it.

>>18078818 (OP)
The answer you get depends on what Egyptian chronology you use. The highest and lowest chronologies for Egypt are about 25 years apart, anchored by the Battle of Megiddo in either 1457 BC or 1475 BC. As of now which date is correct is still under debate.

If you go by the high chronology then there's a candidate for Amenhotep II being the Pharaoh of the Exodus.
>father Thutmose III rules for 54 years, fitting with Moses' exile for 40 years until the then pharaoh dies, and is the only pharaoh of the 18th dynasty to rule 40+ years
>Amenhotep II is not the first born son of Thutmose III so he doesn't die during the 10th plague (Thutmose III's son was Amenemhat, known from inscriptions at Karnak Temple)
>successor Thutmose IV is explicitly not Amenhotep II's firstborn son (Dream Stele) so Amenhotep's firstborn was dead before he himself died
>Amenhotep's mummy has skin lesions on its neck and face, which are possibly scars from a disease he suffered in life, such as the Exodus' plague of boils, picrel
>Amenhotep has only 2-3 Asiatic campaigns on record, all early in his 26 year reign, years 3, 7, & 9. Compared to Thutmose III's 17 campaigns this is a drastic decrease in regional enforcement, suggesting (at least a temporary) decline.
>Amenhotep sent a message to his Nubian viceroy Usersatet, telling him to be wary of his people's magicians when choosing court officials (The Stela of the Viceroy Usersatet). Usersatet was a military commander during the pharaoh's Asiatic campaigns, which experience Amenhotep calls upon as pretext to the further command he gives about weariness, implying the contexts are related.
>The city of Avaris, which preceded Pi-Ramesses and was home to a large proportion of Canaanite-descended people, was abandoned in the middle of the 18th dynasty, when Amenhotep II reigned
>Exodus and supporting biblical verses never explicitly state Pharaoh went down with his army, always described as his chariots, horses & riders, but never himself

>>18078894
*sounds of 12 leather balloons inflating*

>>18078818 (OP)
i also believe it didn't happen

>>18078818 (OP)
>Realistically this should have decimated Egypt and caused the complete collapse of Egyptian society.
Decimate? Yes. Complete collapse? Not so sure about that one.

>there is no record even claiming that such desolation occurred
The Bible says it happened, and last I checked that counts as a record whether or not you agree with it.
>Exodus supposedly happened in the 15th century BC,
In my timeline I put it around 1530 BC or slightly earlier, so 16th century BC. I add 40 years because 1 Kings 6:1 says it was the 480th year since Israel "was come out of" Egypt, which is similar language used in Deuteronomy 4:46. The Deuteronomy passage clearly refers to the end of the forty years in the wilderness (rather than the beginning) as being when they "had come forth" out of Egypt. So my chronology is 40 years longer, pushing the Exodus back to c. 1530 BC, which happens to match much better with what Paul's characterization of approximately how many years there were judges in Acts 13:20 (i.e. "about four hundred and fifty") as well.
>I’m not expecting tents or anything, but they would have had to feed people every day or at least every week, yet we can’t find any remains of animal bones or cooking sites.
Argument from silence.

>>18078849
None of their neighbors noticed or recorded it either?

>>18078818 (OP)
If people thought Exodus and other books of the Old Testament described literal historical events for thousands of years then future archeologists may well end up wasting their entire lives searching for the location of Mount Doom so they can see where the real historical Frodo destroyed the One Ring

>>18079085
>>18080359
This is what is so cool to me. The arguments that Exodus never literally happened feel old and played out. Germanic, Jewish bullshit. Ironically so in the Jewish case. Remnants of the 19th Century when it was hip and cool to doubt the entire Bible.

What is vastly more interesting is to try and take Exodus seriously, and when you do, things in the historical record do tend to get a bit... spooky. Especially when you venture off the beaten path. Isn't there some semi-discredited scroll that almost exactly describes the Egyptians suffering the plagues?

>>18078881
The original ancient Egyptians were Greek unlike the Arab Muslims that conquered them in the Middle Ages that's the reason why both actor Rami Malek and the original Yu-Gi-Oh! protagonists are so white. As for Exodus it was yet another Jewish lie although it was based on reality specifically the aftermath of the Trojan war with the Bronze age collapse due to the mysterious "sea peoples" and the Dorian invasions that created a new royal dynasty in Sparta

>>18080725
>semi-discredited scroll
That’s the Ipuwer Papayrus. The scroll itself isn’t discredited like being a fake artifact (it is of real ancient Egyptian provenance). The problem comes with it’s dating. The earliest physical copies we have come from the 13th century BC, but the text itself, like in many ancient Egyptian documents, can be a copy of something much older.

The difference is dating it to either the New Kingdom (1500-1300 BC) or the Second Intermediate Period (2000-1600 BC). Current modern Egyptian scholarship places it in the much earlier period, but the textual parallels (the poetic symbolism used) between it and Exodus are at minimum weird coincidence.

Personally I don’t use it as evidence for the Exodus happening due to the deeply polarized opinion on it between proponents and detractors. I’d rather get there through more concrete means.

I don't find the Idea of an exodus (the late date seems more probable to me, but there isn't so much evidence either way) to be incredible, but the idea that 2 million Israelites where enslaved seems utterly impossible for the time.

>>18080725
>things in the historical record do tend to get a bit... spooky.
Especially when multiple prime directives for historians clash. All you have to do is look at the absolutely schizophrenic way in which the Wikipedia page on "Habiru" swings wildly from denying in one paragraph, to then allowing that they were Hebrews (see the "Habiru and the biblical Hebrews" section), and then once again concretely denying it again. It seems the page editors couldn't make up their mind whether denying the historicity of the Bible or avoiding appearing "antisemites" (both of which are "prime directives" for contemporary historians) was more important, so they just oscillated chaotically between the two and created a very confusing wikipedia page in the process.

In reality the terms "Hyksos" and "Habiru" both referred to large groups of ancient populations at the time when the Exodus would have happened, of which the Israelites would have been one relatively small sub-population. The only problem is this goes against the prime directive of assuming the Bible must be false, to the greatest extent possible (some contemporary historians will go to greater lengths than others in obedience to the directive).

>>18081041
Speaking as someone who is a believing Christian but also tries to remain somewhat realistic: trouble over dates feels like a really trivial matter. We have no idea, at all, how long the timescale of the Bible is until we start to nail things down towards the end of the Old Testament. The early Old Testament, Genesis and Exodus, feels intentionally murky and I'm fine with accepting that the events in both took place earlier than was commonly believed. If we've thrown out the window that the whole Earth is only 6000 years old, then events in Genesis and Exodus can plausibly start to get their timelines stretched out, too.

>>18083565
Pretty much every christian chronicler treated the events of genesis and exodus as more or less literal until after the reformation

>>18083571
And I do too. I'm not saying they didn't happen, but the timescale at which they happened seems like something we can't be as certain about any more. It's clearly obvious that the Earth isn't 6000 years old, so we don't have to believe that things in Gensis and Exodus happened within less than five, or even six-figures of years across the existence of the human race. The Fall could have happened half a million years ago.

>>18078844
God is a Jewish retard that wants to cut the off the dick of babies and doesn't even know the earth goes around the sun. He is also worshipped by even dumber people.

>>18083574
>but the timescale at which they happened seems like something we can't be as certain about any more.
That's just cope, the fact of the matter is the "um akchoally who knows if a Genesis year is a 1:1 match to the astronomical year" shit is, and will always be, cope.

>>18083579
>God is a Jewish retard that wants to cut the off the dick of babies and doesn't even know the earth goes around the sun.
You just described the average American, not God

>>18083580
But this is counterbalanced by the fact that we DO seem to have traces of the events of Genesis showing up in world history, just not necessarily on the timescale that Genesis posits.

Like, the Flood. Every fucking prehistoric and ancient culture has a flood myth, even the ones totally removed from the Ancient Near East, like the Chinese and the Navajo. It's very interesting.

>>18081764
>enslaved
It doesn't say that in the Bible.
>>18083574
How did people know what year it was before Jesus was born/died?

>>18083565
>We have no idea, at all, how long the timescale of the Bible is until we start to nail things down towards the end of the Old Testament.
In Ezekiel 4:5, it says that God commanded the prophet Ezekiel to lie on one side for 390 days, one day per year since the time that Israel began to sin. If you count the years of the kings in Jerusalem, you get almost exactly that amount of time as well. Both the Ezekiel prophecy and a manual count of the years of kings of the southern kingdom places Solomon's reign at approximately 1015-975 BC, give or take two-three years. This puts Solomon's fourth year in c. 1012 BC, and in 1 Kings 6:1 it says his fourth year was the 480th year since Israel came out of Egypt into Canaan. So we get the Exodus happening 40 more years before that, around 1530-1533 BC. And if Israel spent exactly 430 years in Egypt (see Exodus 12:40; long chronology) then the year Jacob entered Egypt is also known within a few years. In Genesis 47:9, it says he was one hundred and thirty years old, which is the last link we need.

From there, the Bible reader can back-date through the patriarchs fairly accurately (although there's some uncertainty added because we are not told exactly how many months and days old they were, only their age in years). The flood then occurred in 2601-2618 BC, and Adam's creation in 4257-4283 BC if we take the age numbers given at face value.

So, the Bible is pretty clear about the timeframe since the creation of mankind and the six days of creation (literal days, see Exodus 20:11).

However, there is no indication of how much time passed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. We can only speculate as to why it says that the earth was without form and void, flooded with water and ruined to an extent such that God had to reconstruct it. We know that God creates all things new and whole, so there must have been some kind of judgement to befall the cosmos after Genesis 1:1 and before Genesis 1:2. Maybe because of Lucifer.

>>18078818 (OP)
> no evidence
Kek. You think the basedboy academics at the Smithsonian would admit it if they found Rameses II's chariot at the bottom of the Red Sea? The entire field is run by atheist cope-merchants who carbon-date everything with the assumption the Earth is 4 billion years old.

> egypt recorded everything
They recorded their W's, not their L's. Of course they're not gonna inscribe "got BTFO by the God of some slaves" on a pyramid. Their entire history is propaganda.

> no evidence in Sinai
Maybe because God literally provided magic food from heaven that doesn't leave remains, you absolute brainlet. Manna and quail. Read the Bible. "Canaanite roots" cope is just them finding some syncretism from AFTER the Israelites fell into idolatry a million times.

>>18080725
You're thinking about the Ipuwer Papyrus and it has not been discredited at all.

>>18083402
>Habiru vs Hebrews
My personal opinion is that “Habiru” was a derogatory term used to refer to Canaanite nomads that the Israelites took as a mark of honor from the Egyptians seething.

>>18083565
I think the Exodus can be dated to a specific timeframe with the information we have. The problem is without using the direct Biblical timeline references as a source (1 Kings 6:1, Judges 11:26) determining placement has to go a much longer route connecting events hundreds of years apart through archaeology or indirect references between events.

The archaeology of Israel is notoriously patchy, and what we do have is heavily debated. A prime example is the destruction of Jericho from Joshua 6. There is a Bronze Age destruction of the city, but its exact date has been argued for both c. 1400 BC and c. 1550 BC from conflicting views of the data. Kathleen Kenyon argued 1550 BC (current mainstream) while Titus Kennedy argues 1400 BC. Each of them uses different techniques and dug in different spots, finding or not finding evidence that confirms either position. I obviously believe Kennedy more then Kenyon but both reports were made with valid techniques. My belief in either one is for unrelated reasons to Jericho.

Links to both’s writings for reading yourself. They’re published about 70 years apart.
Kenyon: https://archive.org/details/excavationsatjer0005keny
Kennedy: https://doi.org/10.3390/rel14060796

If you go the indirect textual connection route it’s even more difficult since the time between the Exodus and the divided Kingdom (the farthest back we have unanimous consensus on Exodus reference dates) is so far apart. You’d need something to bridge that gap in time, like a reliable tradition of a solar eclipse or similar astronomical observation we can track to the Exodus era. There are a few candidates, such as the darkness of the 9th plague, or the account of the Sun “halting” in the Conquest (sometimes interpreted as an eclipse).

>>18080700
They thought troy was bullshit until they found it in estonia.

>>18079085
So basically Egyptians were only writing down the good shit they did and Jews were the /pol/ of the day screaming EPSTEIN LIST NOW

>>18085009
>Estonia
you mean Anatolia?

>>18078844
The bible is infallible not inerrant. God included this detail to help us realize the holocaust was a lie. The story of the exodus is inspiring fiction and we discovered it was fictional just in time for the Jews to drop their holocaust lie. Jesus once again BTFOs the Jews.

>>18081041
>>18084188
>Ipuwer Papyrus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipuwer_Papyrus

Look at the fucking SEETHE by the Wiki editors in the section about Exodus. You can almost hear them grinding their teeth as they typed that out.