Thread 18095501

>>18095501 (OP)
Did he ever get Zutted?

The text of the book of mormon can't even fit on the golden plates as depicted/"remembered" by "witnesses". The pages are too few and too thick, representing a few dozen pages, maybe a hundred pages if the characters are very small.

>>18095510
enjoy spirit prison

>>18095521
My sides.

>>18095501 (OP)
Physical evidence, you say? May I see it?

>>18095512
Brainrot

>>18095549
This Commentary shall do for now..

>>18095501 (OP)
Can someone quote any of the crazy shit in this book?

>>18095613
the Book of Mormon teaches a hardcore works-salvation (but that's no surprise).
Other than that it actually teaches modalism!
But then J. Smith changed his mind and actually The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are three separate Gods lol, but that's a while after the Book of Mormon was published.

>>18095619
>hardcore works-salvation
No, it teaches sola fide, in stronger terms than the Bible even
>modalism
No, it teaches the orthodox interpretation of the Nicene creed, not the Latin constrained version which treads on the Biblical testimony
>three separate gods
Three persons, one essence, it is absolute orthodoxy

>>18095624
>No, it teaches sola fide, in stronger terms than the Bible even

>O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.
...
>And it also came to pass that whosoever did belong to the church that did not repent of their wickedness and humble themselves before God -- I mean those who were lifted up in the pride of their hearts -- the same were rejected, and their names were blotted out, that their names were not numbered among those of the righteous.
...
> And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.
...
>For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
...
>And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
...
I could go on.
This is an interesting phenomenon. As the Mormon missionaries told me that they believed that everyone BUT them believed in salvation by faith alone.
It seems to me that Satan has such fervent hatred towards the infinite grace of our Lord Jesus Christ no matter where he dwells.

>>18095643
Faith in the arm of flesh is not the same as exercising faith that God is just and being saved by his Holy Ghost (a thing that is separate from joining a man-made church)
Think baptism of water vs. immersion of spirit difference. One is ordinary, and symbolic of a covenant; the latter is the true meaning of all true scriptures, and is analogous to being "saved".

>>18095649
>exercising faith
is work
having faith is not.
you are a fool.

>>18095652
t. semantics

>>18095652
If you don't govern yourself by your faith that God is true, it's "faith without works" and therefore dead.

>>18095657
>t. someone who was literally just playing semantical games a minute ago in >>18095649
Saying that I trust the Lord Jesus Christ and his infinite atonement alone for my salvation is "trusting in the flesh" and therefore not "sola fide" is asinine.

>>18095658
yes, it's dead. you can read.
youre still saved if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, as Jesus Christ promised since before the world began.

>>18095661
That line of thinking is why there are 1000s of baptist churches that say they are the one true church and rebaptize you if you want to join, and say all you have to do is make a verbal confession of faith to be accepted as a member. That is not the same thing as the true faith in God that is more than words.

>>18095663
Dead faith is null and void
Salvation is based on judgment by a just God, not magic words of man
If you can say truly you trust in Jesus from the evidence of the testimony of the Holy Ghost then you are capable of following righteousness and will be judged for how righteous you are

>>18095664
>1000s of baptist churches that say they are the one true church and rebaptize you if you want to join
schizophrenia. there are around 65 "distinct groups" of baptists but this tends to mean there are millions of southern baptists and millions of independent baptists (who do not mutually condemn one another either - they are not saying they're "The one true church" - that's your Mormon-brain thinking) and then there's tiny little groups of like 100 weirdos here and there.
Do you want me to bring up all the different denominations of Mormon? Whom you DO condemn?

>>18095661
Your act of Saying is actually a work-based salvation statement, and real faith in God is not like that.

>>18095671
Why should I care if one followed Brigham or Rigdon or Joseph Smith III or whoever, as long as one followed God before any Aaronic priesthood

>>18095672
You swore an oath to Satan in the temple, to be under his power and priesthood forever, doofus.
No wonder a DOOFUS is saying actual nonsense
>uhh work isnt work and faith isnt faith uhh duhh
when he's stupid enough to swear oaths to Satan.

>>18095677
The works are a fruit of salvation, not salvation-begetting, but salvation-begotten
Being saved is knowing God personally to be just and submitting to his will

>>18095674
Okay then why should anyone care that there's 6 gorillion Christian denominations or whatever?

>>18095681
Denominations are judged impersonally, and justly
If they are contentious about doctrines of man and tread on the true testimony of God in the Bible then they are judged to be false and allowed to follow their decisions to their logical ends in God's eyes.

>>18095679
>submitting to his will
his will is PERFECTION at every moment of your life forever.
you do not understand the holiness of God whatsoever. no wonder you act like he is just one in an infinitude of Gods. you don't think he's holy.
so you assume by being a skinnyfat pushover you're being "righteous"

I had a Mormon associate who was morbidly obese plead with me to stay in the religion because Mormon heaven and godhood was so much "cooler" than worshiping God in the "Bible Heaven"
Yeah, I'd like to see a morbidly obese God LOL.

>>18095688
>His will is PERFECTION at every moment of your life forever.
Yeah, and not a human conception of perfection, but his own wisdom. You are confounded in your wanting to condemn me, for I have said nothing wrong.

>>18095688
>obesity
This is why Ramadan should be instituted everywhere, because it is actually super easy to burn weight if you fast from first light to sunset, and then feast after sunset.

>>18095695
>Yeah, and not a human conception of perfection, but his own wisdom
...
>Perfect doesnt mean perfect
>God is whatever I want him to be so that I personally feel all good inside and self-righteous

You judge yourself unworthy of eternal life by rejecting the literally free gift of Jesus Christ's infinite atonement for you.
But to be honest, maybe you had no chance. Were your parents Mormon? Then they swore their SEED to be under Satan's power and priesthood forever. Imagine swearing your own children to Satan. Oh but everyone at church is so NICE though!

>>18095703
You are inverted.

>>18095710
Joseph Smith predicted South Carolina would secede
He also defines blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, where it is very hard to find a sound and reasonable definition elsewhere (it was hidden doctrine that was restored by Joseph Smith) as apostasy and fall after having the heavens opened to you, and choosing to sin against the plan of salvation.

>>18095677
>>18095703
Say what you will about the organizations, but they at least got the Book of Mormon published in languages all over the world, which is an eschatologically significant thing.

>>18095713
>Joseph Smith predicted South Carolina would secede
yeah and Nostradamus predicted World War I.
shut the hell up.
you'd call criss angel a prophet if he claimed to be one.

>>18095722
Joseph Smith did predict WWI as well

>>18095730
wow. incredible.
how about this; I predict that tomorrow, the sun will rise.
or how about this, I will make 300 predictions and only 10 will come true but you'll take it to mean I'm a real prophet.

>>18095737
Nostradamus is obscure but Smith is solid

>>18095739
I think myself more solid. The sun shall rise indeed. And I will have not sold myself to Satan.

>>18095756
Satan is more interested in hiding in ordinary channels and disrupting the transmission of the gospel across all denominational lines, than in professing teaching of his own

>>18095759
Well sure, that's why he hides behind the veil as you shake his hand.

>>18095764
Evil spirits are barred from taking physical form.

>>18095770
Sure. Again, he hides behind the veil. And as you wear the sign of his priesthood, you delude yourself (I presume) that the person behind the veil could be anyone but him.

>>18095775
>thing I don't understand is.. LE BAD

>>18095778
What is it that I don't understand?
You're never going to make me into one of the Devil's priests lol. Not if I have anything to say about it.
But you're a doofus. Manipulated by culture around you (and the promise of easy pussy, you feckless, pathetic little man - the way Mormon missionaries would speak about women would make me sick - not because I care about misogyny(lol) but because they were just SO OBSESSED with girls like little freaks).
They tell you
>here, become a priest to Satan! (hands you Satan's garment)
you obey.

>>18095785
gross

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
Reading Joseph Smith's own testimony, it is a lot like Paul's sounds in the Bible.

>>18095643
>Sola fide
>b-but only how I say

>>18095521
Top kek

>>18095713
South Carolina had repeated nullification crises.
It's not crazy to have seen it coming.

>>18095785
Satan has no power of priesthood. During the endowment ceremonial drama he (get this!) lies. Then he is cast out by God and his apostolic messengers. Don't tell me you took it all at a profane face value...? Re-read D&C 129

>>18096752
False prophets staking claims like that have a way of being proven wrong in an obvious fashion.

>>18095501 (OP)
Let me guess. You only have 9001 proofs?

>>18096761
>"oh God hear the voice of my mouth"
>here's the sign of my priesthood
you put it on, and don't take it off for the whole endowment.

>"oh God hear the voice of my mouth"
>it's uh... totally not me, Satan, behind the veil, you're still wearing MY priesthood garment, right? okay, good. now shake my- I mean this unidentified hand from behind the veil

>>18098216 (Solitaire)
Obsessed.

>>18098216
Oh, so you just choose to take Satan's word at face value. Good to know.

If Mormonism was real why would they practice credo baptism?

>>18098630
Because we don't believe in original sin and that the age of moral accountability is age 8, so baptisms are done after age 8.

>>18098644
>hates Augustine
Mormons really are brown on the inside huh.

>>18098630
That's like the least of Mormonism's problems m8

They are closer to a 19th Century KJV fanfiction version of Scientology, or if you like they are close to the Jehovah's Witnesses, than any of the various Nicean christian denominations.

>>18098651
Credo baptism so demonic it is worse than any of those other things.

>>18098653
I don't think you are understanding HOW fucked Mormonism really is my friend. Their theology is literally out there, they think innumerable "Heavenly Fathers" exist in our universe, ours lives on (or near? It's unclear) a star named Kolob. Matter is eternal in Mormonism, no "ex nihilo" creation. The Mormon god, who is one of presumably infinitely many (in the past and to come) was once a man who did the temple rituals to become a god on his death, and organized matter into our solar system.

It's a wild dance of men becoming gods in an infinite regression, no explanation of where it all began, no satisfaction of an ending. If you are a faithful Mormon, you exist to do rituals in a temple to become a god upon your death to birth spirit babies to create a new planet where men can, you guessed it, become gods of their own planets, so on and so forth, ad infinitum.

>>18098668
Ok. But I hate you because you don't do infant baptism more.

>>18098671
Please - point out my mistakes instead of posting an iFunny watermarked picture. If I'm wrong about something, I would like to be corrected, but I don't think you can without lying about your faith.

>>18098676
I don't do any baptism. But I shower.

>>18098680
You should do infant baptism at a local mainline church if you have a baby. It's wholesome and good for society. Like how people get married in such a space.

>>18098680
The infinite regress is not doctrine or dogma. There are no canonized revelations or scripture supporting that idea. Even in the rest of the King follet discourse, God the father is described as the "head God." It was a profound speculation on the part of the Prophet, and even the audience at the time recognized it as such rather than a new canonized dogma that is elaborated into a system required for us to believe.

>>18098707
>As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.
Literally denying your own church's website quoting one of your "presidents and prophets" lmao
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-5-the-grand-destiny-of-the-faithful?lang=eng

Mormon God was once a man under his own God on another planet, and was elevated to godhood. The only way out of an infinite regress - which you're right is only the obvious conclusion of Mormon theology not a term they use - is the Adam-God theory which the Mainline Mormon church has rejected. Too bad, infinite regress it is.

>>18098718
You're conflating two different ideas. I believe God the father passed through mortality. I do not believe he had or has (a chain of infinite) god the fathers above him.

>>18098732
Then you haven't thought it through.

>>18098735
Or I have thought it through beyond the false dichotomy of either infinite regress or Adam-god.

>>18098740
Ok. Mormon God was mortal. Great. Where did he live? Who created his world where he lived?

If he created his own world, then you have the equivalent of the Adam-God theory, if not, there are other gods in your polytheistic or at least henotheistic religion.

It just doesn't make sense, either there is a chain of gods or there isn't, and you have a mortal who magically appears out of nowhere. Cognitive dissonance much?

>>18098718
>teachings of the presidents
Not canon. People can get caught up in added conceptions and make errors, that is part of LDS tradition, not to be contentious against someone else's doctrine. The Word of God remains however, and if that teaching must be accepted (it mustn't) it can only be so in rigid accordance with the scriptures already recognized as such as they are, which is evidently inspired: it is so telling that anti-Mormons never pull our own Holy Writ and resort to low-grade traditions of men instead, when all the traditions of Protestantism are crumbling in abominations and apostasy, and Catholicism still forces org members to be permanently celibate. Even the Buddha said that was a commandment of man.

>>18095605
If its from Africa, you can pretty much throw out anything Mormon that isn't the scriptures themselves, and be a Sola Scriptura Mormon.

>>18095713
The Nullification Crisis was ongoing when Smith made that prediction. No one, not even Andrew Jackson himself, was sure whether South Carolina would actually pull the trigger or not. Even once the Crisis ended just about everyone knew secession talk would continue down the road. The issue is Smith claimed that the American Civil War would become a World War and destroy all nations of the Earth. The American Civil War didn't become a global conflict and it didn't end all nations.

>>18098777
War was to be poured out on all nations beginning at the US south, even Britain at length; it never says in words it will be the same time, and everything in the revelation lines up perfectly.

>>18098777
Nullification crisis wouldn't have been as big as hoe God deliberately set up for the Civil War to ultimately take place' and along the exact lines the prophet had revealed already.

>>18095501 (OP)
Ok. Name every single one of them.
I'm waiting.

>>18098802
The Holy Ghost affirms it

>>18098810
That's not a source of evidence
Also, Mormonism is complete schizo scientology-tier Christian LARPing
Only Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and maybe some of the Oriental Orthodox churches, are legitimate

is Kolob a star or a planet?

>>18098810
>thread starts with claims of physical evidence for BoM, citing thousands of such
>Mormons are reduced to vague affirmations that a spirit totally told us that it was true, which is countered by every other religion's claims
>Read the Qu'ran, and Allah will affirm it.
>Read the Bhagavad Gita, and Krishna will affirm it.
>Read the Diamond Sutra, and the Buddhas will affirm it.
Et cetera et cetera. If you believe one, why not the others?

Mormons don't tell you to use your God given gift of reason to weigh the evidence, because that would lead any honest rational person especially one with a keen interest in theology to reject the religion. Instead, they will tell you to read their literature and "pray about it" and some warm and fuzzy wishful thinking feeling will "testify" to you of the veracity. Many have been fooled by this tactic.

As Nietzsche famously formulated: a casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith proves nothing. Where is the physical evidence for righteous fair skinned Jews living amongst other Jews cursed with dark skin for their iniquity, in the Americas?

>>18098901
I think you will find more answers on this relating to the Kolob of Battlestar Galactica (I enjoyed the newer TV show) than the actual Mormon doctrine itself.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/music/songs/if-you-could-hie-to-kolob?lang=eng

Best I can do is this Mormon hymn from a guy who died in 1872, which seemingly affirms that there are MANY gods in the Mormon faith, and that this was a VERY early doctrine taught by Joe Smith himself and later summarized by a "President and Prophet" of Mormonism one Mr Lorenzo Snow. Not that this answers your question at all.

>>18098763
>anti-Mormon
A term used by Mormons for any person or media produced that is critical of their claims. Meant to discourage you from even considering competing viewpoints, and keep you "on the plantation" so to speak.

>>18095549
>Israelite artifacts?
>from that point in history?
>in this part of the world?
>localized entirely within your hat?

>>18095519
It's been proven fraudulent for a while now Anon.

>>18099918
The Book of Abraham is a direct translation from the papyrus

>>18095501 (OP)
>>18095605
If that is true then general authorities are wrong

>>18099968
No, it isn't. We know how to translate hieroglyphs nowadays, it's obviously not about Abraham nor is the papyrus long enough to extract the amount of text that Joe put into his "Book of Abraham" forgery. Even much of the "details" that Smith drew onto the papyrus were wrong, we have other more complete copies of it that show a jackal's head, not a human head on the one figure. Again, nothing to do with Abraham.

>>18099968
Have you considered that Joseph Smith was a lazy and clever conman that loved money and pussy (that belonged to other men)?
What was his occupation before becoming a prophet? Moneydigging LMAO
Jesus? A carpenter.
The Apostles? Fishermen.
Reminds of Mohammed, who was also a lazybones conman. He purposely married a rich old woman to use her money to springboard his ambition.
J. Smith's story is just about taking people's money for himself so he could make more money, and eventually steal people's wives. Objectively speaking.

>>18100026
If he was just in it for the money, why did he obey God and keep the plates out of human hands, in stead of just selling them?

>We know how to translate hieroglyphs nowadays
There is no translation contender against Joseph Smith's true one, only a half-hearted guess based on supposed similarities between only one of the images and some other book.

>>18100019
>Book of Abraham
>requires Faith of Abraham to follow
Who is surprised the mob can't comprehend the teachings of the Savior?

>>18100061
I honestly can't tell if you are arguing for or against Mormonism.

>>18100065
Doesn't it sound like something God would do, giving prophet Joseph the wisdom he sought out in prayer? And of course, being Wisdom, it isn't a sort of thing like Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientology where it can be roughly pinned down, no, it requires a detailed treatment to \get at the finer details of Mormonism, just like the Bible really.

>>18095699
Most Muslims gain weight during Ramadan

>>18100069
My experience is it teaches how to burn fat, so if you can't but over-compensate and eat bad foods 30 days in a row, it's on you.

>>18100068
No. Sounds like more cope from Mormons who can't address the flaws in the teachings of their church. Was it "wisdom" that had Joe sending men on missions and then "marrying" their wives?

>>18100065
I argue plainly, that at the very least it should be treated as a thing of interest by everyone, not believed blindly, but if you can justify it to yourself, you could join in faith in what I believe God has promulgated.
Think of it like this:
1. The Bible
2. The Apocrypha
3. The Book of Mormon
If the Apocrypha is considered to be dubious but perchance it is wise, then it may be worthy to be read in addition to the Bible, only with a critical eye to make sure it is up to snuff. The Book of Mormon should be taken as yet another step in accruing scriptural knowledge, and, it benefits best from its own obscurity, as once the pieces start to come together, it is a very useful unit of knowledge, that it contains; it also helps the reader greatly in understanding how the whole Bible works together as one book. I can elaborate on that much further, but for now this explanation should be enough.

>>18100078
AFAIK Joseph has no lineage except by Emma Hale Smith.

so, one idiot is trolling here by pretending he believes all that mormon bullshit and the rest of you argue with him as if he was serious?

>>18100091
Very disingenuous of you to resort to misrepresentation of my position after failing to refute anything I say. Peak reddit, no, even, peak twitter.

>>18100091
And I do believe the Book of Abraham, yes absolutely; the Holy Ghost affirms it to me.

It is deliberately flimsy, so it can by all appearances be discounted by the masses, and yet persist in its own witness. Remember, "Judge not according to the appearance, but Judge righteous judgment". It is advanced Gospel study that led me to the capacity to receive even of something so maligned.

>>18100091
As a matter of fact it is much the opposite: one serious poster (with a handful of others) of LDS theology, refuting all unserious opponents. If you read the thread that is what you will see.

>>18100091
>bullshit
Like the parable:
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng

>>18100091
see
>>18095605

>>18100104
>deliberately flimsy
Oh, OK, so, everything wrong with it, that's the point?

>>18100084
>I can elaborate on that much further
What could you even say at this point?

>>18098732
>God the father passed through mortality
Well, at the very least, God experiences our suffering, and glories in our triumph over evil, and he absolutely experienced the world through his Word, in Jesus.

>>18100026
gross

>>18098747
God experienced the worlds he created through his creatures

>>18100058
Because there were no gold plates. Again, if they were actually gold the Book of Mormon would weigh somewhere around 200 pounds.
He wrapped a book in brass jeweler's foil and kept it in a sack. Having people touch the sack and hear crinkling was part of his schtick (this is attested to by visitors of the Smith household). Although it's actually nonsensical. Gold plates wouldn't actually crinkle.

>>18100193
Why does Joseph Smith come across as such a clearheaded and genuine witness in his histories and revelations, if he is supposedly making it up? Do you know of any deceivers that are of such a high and good personal quality?
If he was faking it the whole time, why didn't God set up something for him to be demonstrated a failure? It could just as easily have been, after the Nullification crisis abated, that things took a different course, with New England and such seceding; with God anything is possible. Why did God reset the situation and then let it go on to follow through exactly as it was supposed to according to revelation?

>>18100193
What is your opinion of the Bible?

>>18100199
>>18100207
Considering the New Testament prophesies that every nation and kindred and tongue will believe on the Lord Jesus, and that today, every nation and kindred and tongue has believers in Jesus, the New Testament mogs. By a large margin.
>Uhh a state will secede
Incredible. Wow. Amazing. It's not like civil revolt and disorder was a common topic in early America. Nope. We should ignore that this was the popular discourse of the day. Just like how we should ignore that it was popular discourse BEFORE the Book of Mormon that the Indians were lost tribes of Israel (View of the Hebrews).
But your argumentation is insincere. You claim that the scale and fulfillment of a prophecy is what makes something true, yet since I've supplied this true prophecy of the New Testament, you will shift the goalpost to some other criterion.

>>18100222
>Uhh a state will secede
Here is the full quotation:
>Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; and the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place: for behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations;
>Even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations; and it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war:
>And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
>That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

>>18100222
New Testament says not to judge based on appearance; that is how God managed to hide in the world for centuries now what he put in the Book of Mormon, which was sealed, and also the actual revelations of Joseph Smith, which are true, and of the quality of the New Testament.>>18095713

>>18098747
>It just doesn't make sense, either there is a chain of gods or there isn't, and you have a mortal who magically appears out of nowhere. Cognitive dissonance much?
It's not "either."
Mormons believe in an infinite chain of gods creating worlds that make more gods. They will lie to you bold-facedly as though they don't. But they do.
Now, they don't immediately teach their children or converts this, but once you are an adult Mormon and preparing for the Endowment Ceremony, they tell you. It's a slow rollout through their seminaries that teenagers go through. Considering I was basically an adult convert, they just laid it all bare for me when I started questioning it myself (after over a year). It was all or nothing I guess. They told me that their beliefs were way "cooler" than the Bible. That was the ultimate appeal they made.

>>18100233
In that case, the prophecy did not come to pass whatsoever. lmao.

>>18100244
Why would God create a Mormon denomination that so completely betrays their own scriptures, to such a ridiculous extreme? It's almost as if he's making a point, about letting people govern themselves by their own agency, and watching it fail, just like every other denomination has, only amplified.

>>18100222
>View of the Hebrews
see
>>18095605

>>18100249
The punctuation and versification is all scribes' hands, so it is sensible that it would be obscure, like the Old Testament prophecies, which being only a glimpse of the light of the Gospel, it justifies them as having been developed independently of the NT, and not corrupted to justify it.

>>18100257
>it justifies them as having been developed independently of the NT
Well yeah. J. Smith made it up.

>Jewish Scriptures: Don't add commands to those of God, those are of Man, and an abomination
>Jews: Use commandments of man to justify killing prophets and Christ Jesus
>Christian Scriptures: Here are several examples of commandments of man causing humans to fail to uphold the true Word of God, and being justly destroyed
>Christians: add to the word of God arbitrary constraints, and make every denomination more about the word of man than of God, and drive every true believer out who doesn't want to swallow the word of man and live by that
>Mormon Scriptures: REALLY NOW DO NOT ADD TO THE WORD OF GOD ANY SUCH THING, IT RUINS IT, AND IS WRONG
>Mormon denomination: does it anyway

>>18100264
I mean the Old Testament being written centuries before the New, and the ties to the New being relatively obscure, not because it's made up, but because God plants seeds in the breadth of his scriptures, from which new fruit is set to grow, and to expand our knowledge, so long as we are wise enough to stick to the letter of everything he has said, and not tread on his testimony by replacing it with smooth-brained word-of-man theology and such.

>>18100244
The reason the denomination contains crazy shit is because God used Joseph Smith to release us from the traditional understandings of the Bible that had made the understanding of the Bible itself unclear. Of course, the worst case is always allowed to present itself, like with Christianity, like with the OT, and, Lo and behold, they impose an arbitrary mixture of the strange things they are free to come up with, and make it into a point of contention, that which was supposed to be free expression and consideration of novel thought.

>>18100280
>I mean the Old Testament being written centuries before the New, and the ties to the New being relatively obscure, not because it's made up, but because God plants seeds in the breadth of his scriptures, from which new fruit is set to grow, and to expand our knowledge, so long as we are wise enough to stick to the letter of everything he has said, and not tread on his testimony by replacing it with smooth-brained word-of-man theology and such.
Can you translate this into pragmatically comprehensible English?
I'm assuming that in so doing that what you said will become relevant to the conversation.
You (or somebody) said Smith's prophecy was fulfilled. Clearly, it was not. Yet the prophecy I supplied from the New Testament alone was fulfilled.

>>18100291
The one you supplied is "fulfilled" according to you on a technicality, and is not the actual intended meaning of the prophecy;
The one of Joseph Smith happened exactly to the letter, though the scribes' account of it contains interpolated punctuation that makes it say something that conforms to what they were expecting in a worst-case scenario, which doesn't prove the prophecy false as given, rather justifies it as a true thing, in obscurity.

I compare the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus, being bits and pieces along the way, not something with an obvious logical conclusion, except in the conclusion (NT) coming as it did, and evidently lining up in all cases.

>>18100233
This was orignally written in shorthand, so all punctuation is after-the-fact, and, if you read it to say, "Even the nation of Great Britain" as a second entry in a list of places war would be poured out on, it lines up perfectly with
>Civil War
>World War One
and on.

>>18100300
>The one of Joseph Smith happened exactly to the letter
>to the letter
okay. supply me with the letters, without scribal errors. Surely J. Smith's prophecies are protected from such a thing, and an uncorrupted version exists.

>>18100307
It is cast to require a bit of interpreting on the believers' part, just like the prophecies that line up with Jesus in the OT.

>>18100305
the sequence of events starts with South Carolina seceding, and then presumably civil war occurs. STARTING at South Carolina, Great Britain enters the war, and then calls on other nations etc. etc. until the Mormons kill all the "Gentiles."
This did not happen in the Civil War.

>>18100310
>Great Britain enters the war
This is the only misread which is caused by scribes modifying the text in punctuating it as it was. "Even the nation of Great Britain" would suffer war poured out on it at length, as predicted in the prophecy; and, if God can delay the South Carolina thing from 30s to 60s, surely he can delay further on to the time WWI took place, in the fulness of the day.

>>18100318
Again, this is from a believers' perspective, so if it is odious to you, it is because you don't want to believe, and that is probably because you believe Mormonism is a works-based faith, which sets an arbitrary yoke of man on to the believer; listen to this: I wouldn't believe in it if it wasn't manifestly beneficial to me in understanding the Word of God and the world.

>>18099918
>proven
Zero actual evidence, only speculation, which is BS. Actually reading the book, you would know.

>>18098671
based.

>>18100244
>all or nothing
That is how it is with most denominations; either you take the Bible + Word of Man, or, you are not welcome in the fellowship. The Book of Mormon directly opposes such contentiousness.

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

>>18100349
The Book of Mormon is the word of man.

If you look at American history, you would know that man has been driven unto the ends of the earth in hope of escaping the word of man in order to practically observe the true Word of God. Joseph Smith only wanted to put that forward, not set it back, and, to prove all the denominations were corrupt, in his restoring the priesthood, not of the order of Aaron, but of the true order of Melchizedek, which is direct experience of God. The Book of Mormon, in spite of all its strange attributes, is actually observably (by me) to be the straightest way to God that is available. Read Alma 32: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng

>>18100356
And yet it sets any word of man apart from the Word of God, and even accepts this designation, as being potentially as flawed as the word of man, see "if there are faults they are the mistakes of men" on the title page.

>>18100324
>I wouldn't believe in it if it wasn't manifestly beneficial to me
This I understand quite well. A lascivious and self serving creature thou art.
I would’ve had the most beautiful wife in the world if I went along with your lie.
But I’d rather suffer with the truth than benefit with the lie.
Such impotent people you Mormons are, prophesying how you’ll kill everyone (the “Gentiles”), only to piss and shit yourself at how “persecuted” you all are by “anti Mormons”
Victims and narcissists of the highest order. If I’d die for Christ I’d be no victim whatsoever. It’d be the greatest moment of my life. The time will come when the man of sin rules the world. O what happy day if you wretched Mormons gifted me a crown of martyrdom. I know you’d be the most vicious gnashers in your own impotency.
Vile people. Animated by the lusts of the flesh, thinking gain is godliness. The morbidly obese fantasizing of a polygynous godhood.

>>18100367
>lascivious
The word sticks to you my friend, for you have shown your cravenness openly in this thread, with your name attached.

>>18100371
>y-youre mean!
Proving my point.

>>18100358
>35 O then, is not this real?
Come on now.

>>18100360
Oh so you agree Joe wrote the Mormon Bible as KJV fanfiction and it is not a translation? Interesting.

>>18100413
No no no, I believe it to be directly inspired by the God who inspired the Bible. If it was fanfiction it wouldn't be worth justifying.

>>18095756
do you claim to be a prophet

>>18098668
>innumerable "Heavenly Fathers"
source?

Well, I think other worlds are real.
In our reality, it's obviously like a veil, or rather, parallel dimensions.

It's interesting that the teaching implies that the Biblical God is physical. I would agree, because in the Old Testament, he is clearly anthropomorphic.

>>18095785
>What is it that I don't understand?
The Word of God, in the Bible even.

>>18100438
Would you believe if God would send a book, which was sealed, and then let humanity believe it was from the wrong continent? see >>18095605

>>18100244
>all or nothing
Doesn't mean you have to accept it personally, just that if you wanted to join with them, you would have to accept they would teach some things that were hard to explain or justify in the scriptures.

>>18100058
based Book of Mormon believer

>>18100514
samefag.

>>18100449
Huitzilopochtli and Melqart-Heracles

Huitzilopochtli tells the Aztecs to sail to a place where they should see a cactus with a bird devouring a snake. Tenochtitlan is founded on this spot.

Heracles-Melqart(main god in Phoenicia) builds Tyre on the site of a burning tree with a bird devouring a snake. (Or Melqart himself comes as a god and bids the Phoenicians build a city on the site of the tree on which the snake-eating bird sits. Tyre was a floating island and connected to water, like Tenochtitlan.)

Boaz and Jachin = the Pillars of Hercules and Melqart. He is 100% the founder of Freemasonry and the Mysteries.

Huitzilopochtli also led the Aztecs out of their oppressed territory and commanded them to change their ways (sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

His snake staff (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiuhcōātl) is the same staff as Moses'.

Both were associated with fire.

Huitzilopochtli was associated with hummingbirds, and Melqart with the aril.

Boaz and Jachin = the Pillars of Hercules-Melqart(Nergal). He is 100% the founder of Freemasonry and the Mysteries.
https://historum.com/t/new-perspectives-on-shared-patterns-in-near-eastern-mythology.201099/
https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9492
https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9066
https://thingsinthree.blogspot.com/2013/05/melqart-burning-man.html

If you don't believe me, ask AI. The city's foundations are literally identical 1:1

>>18100546
no one will believe me

>>>/x/41319648
>>>/x/41334983
>>18099835

>ways
names (as nations)

fix

>>18100546
interesting

>>18100546
>>18100549
https://www.rimasons.org/freemasonry-community-rhode-island/masonic-news/14-within-the-craft/334-the-esoteric-meaning-of-the-twin-pillars-boaz-joachim
The concept of the twin pillars standing at the gate of sacred places can be traced back to the ancient civilizations of antiquity. In ancient Greece, the Pillars of Hercules was the name applied to the promontories that flank the entrance to the straights of Gibraltar. According to Plato’s account, the lost realm of Atlantis was located beyond the Pillars of Hercules, in effect, placing them in the realm of the unknown. Tradition says the pillars bore the warning; "Nec Plus Ultra" meaning "nothing further beyond", and served as a warning to sailors and navigators to go no further. Symbolically speaking, going beyond the Pillars of Hercules meant leaving the foulness of this world into the realm of higher enlightenment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votan


Solomon's Temple was built in the image and likeness of the Temple of Melqart by Hiram from Phoenicia
Solomon worship with Baal (Molek-Nergal and Melqart were fire gods, literally burning; read the links/ also Kaiwan) and Astarte

>>18100553
Just follow the links this here >>18100549; there are also links to articles and other stuff. It might be a lot of nonsense, but one thing is certain.

Boaz and Jachin = Pillars of Heracles-Melqart 10000%

https://historum.com/t/new-perspectives-on-shared-patterns-in-near-eastern-mythology.201099/

https://historum.com/t/egypts-influence-on-the-mediterranean-in-the-first-millennium-bc-how-big-is-it-really-that-big.196863/

https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9492

https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9066

https://historum.com/t/the-gods-of-abraham-1-who-was-el-shaddai.199237/

>Herodotus: In the wish to get the best information that I could on these matters, I made a voyage to Tyre in Phoenicia, hearing there was a temple of Heracles at that place, very highly venerated. I visited the temple, and found it richly adorned with a number of offerings, among which were two pillars, one of pure gold, the other of smaragdos, shining with great brilliance at night. In a conversation which I held with the priests, I inquired how long their temple had been built, and found by their answer that they, too, differed from the Hellenes. They said that the temple was built at the same time that the city was founded, and that the foundation of the city took place 2,300 years ago.
>Josephus:He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain called Lebanon, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the ancient temples, he both built the temple of Heracles and that of `Ashtart; and he was the first to celebrate the awakening (egersis) of Heracles in the month Peritius.
He and his wife hid behind many names and were divided into hypostases. The Phoenicians and Babylonians knew this. Marduk is the former Nergal-Hercules.

Identification in India is complicated, as the Greeks themselves identified him with Krishna Balarama, and later with Indra (King of 33 Devas on Mount Meru, aka Sumeru. You get the idea).

>
>/his/ - History & Humanities

>>18100577
https://grahamhancock.com/dmisrab7/
https://grahamhancock.com/dmisrab8/
The city of Amrita with its healing springs in Phoenicia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amrit
It was also believed that Balarama was Bel, aka Belenus, that is, balor and baldr baal

https://sacred-texts.com/mas/sof/sof08.htm

https://sacred-texts.com/bud/ipc/ipc05.htm
>Tree and Serpent worship carried by the Phenicians everywhere—The religion of the Indian jungle—Baal in Palestine—The "Star of Chiun" (S’iva)—The Mahâdeos and Masseboth—Special blood-thirstiness of the Phenician Divinity—"Holy of Holies" of Jewish Temple, and "Sanctuary of the S’iva-Linga" in India.

>>18100588
What about the theory of the Book of Mormon being from Africa, in stead of all these gymnastics?

>>18095501 (OP)
>spends his early years scamming for a living
>suddenly god speaks to him (i was there dude trust me)
>"i am the new prophet you come with me and give me your wives!!!"
>it works
>make the most profitable religious sect in the USA (they own senators)

you gotta give it to ol Joseph, he took his scam to the next level and it payed off like no other, we may never see one of his kind ever again...

>>18100592
>Book of Mormon being from Africa
I haven't read this book, but the blurb sounds unreliable and like a justification for slavery (retrospectively)

>>18100640
This blurb?
churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng

>>18100065
Read the thread again

>>18100652
Too much bullshit from Mormon apologists, can't be fucked sorry.

>>18100674
see>>18100112

>>18100579
"Bahlam" or "B'alam" means jaguar in the Mayan language.
>Baal
>Devas (divs, daevas) were sometimes identified with felines due to their characteristic markings on their bodies.

>>18100767
That's a stretch if you really want to reach for it.

>>18100614
t. didn't even read the dang thing

>>18100244
>They will lie to you bold-facedly as though they don't. But they do.
Disingenuous
>Mormons believe in an infinite chain of gods creating worlds that make more gods.
Where is the source?

>>18100882
You don't know your own beliefs? Are you underage? You shouldn't be on 4chan then.

>>18100915
>my own beliefs
>that I don't believe
Is this how Catholics and Protestants function? They just input whatever the man at the pulpit outputs? Do they even read???

>>18100927
Um, as a Mormon you are expected to... I don't know... believe in Mormonism? You aren't supposed to create your own religion loosely based on the teachings of the Mormon church. I'm all for you thinking for yourself, but that isn't compatible with your current choice of religion.

>do Catholics believe what their church teaches
Not always, but if they are a believer taking communion they're expected to follow the church teachings particularly on faith and morals. Some are more like you I guess - Cafeteria Catholics who pick which parts of the religion to follow while contradicting other parts. It leads to a type of "religious schizophrenia" if you get my drift.
>Protestants
Such a wide variety of denominations and practices it is hard to make generalizations. But again, generally you're supposed to believe in the Bible (sola scriptura is one formulation, one of the five solas). Not all Protestants follow the Bible, some just do whatever is politically popular at the time like so-called "affirming churches" which support gay and trans ideology in spite of what Christianity has historically said on the subject.

>>18100966
"Mormonism" as defined by you? Some man? Or the church, in its canonical scriptures

>>18100993
>Only follow the scriptures not the church
Again, you are making your own religion loosely based on Mormonism if you ignore the teachings of the Mormon church. That's fine (although retarded), but please just be honest about what you are doing. Are you a believer in the authority of the LDS Church or not?

>>18101009
>rules for thee but not for Protestantism or Catholicism
Fuck off retard.

>>18095501 (OP)
Little known interview with gigamormon. No stone left unturned, no censorship and no apologies; just straight up mormonism in all it's demented glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLpCFJu1xYw

Shit should be turned into a movie.

So was Joseph Smith Zutted or not? I don't care he was swimming in prime teen pussy, I just want to know if he was raped by a pack of feral niggers (or injuns). Do Mormons have an equivalent to Hadiths? If so, are any of them as embarrassing to Joseph Smith as some are to Mohamed?

>>18101044
Interviewer says Mormonism is a good religion to live by, even if he believes it is wrong.

>>18101044
>This is an interview with not just a regular LDS member but a high priest in the Salt Lake City Temple and after watching this, one must conclude that we believe in the same God/god with a few minor differences.

>>18095519
Check the Grammar and Alphabet and other Book of Abraham translation documents. He thought a single Ancient Egyptian character could produce a whole paragraph of English text lol.

>>18101275
He had magic stones.

>>18095519
>>18101275
It's an abridgement of other records and written in reformed Egyptian, which is a type of shorthand Hebraic Egyptian.
>picrel is English shorthand.
Could you read it without the guide? Do you think a non-English speaker can read it?

>>18095661
Ephesians 5:5-8
>“**For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.** **Let no man deceive you* with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. **Be not ye therefore partakers with them.** For ye were sometimes darkness, **but now are ye light in the Lord**: walk as children of light.”
St. Paul warns those that are now light in the Lord not to be partakers in fornication, idolatry, adultery, etc… People now in the light of the Lord are saved, they are warned not to partake in sins which prevent one from entering heaven. This means one can be saved but be deceived into partaking in these sins that prohibit you from entering heaven. It means one can be saved and lose his salvation. Jesus says it best in Luke 8:
>13 Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away.
People may believe and fall away. If belief is the cause of salvation and it may be lost than salvation may be lost.

>>18095713
>>18095501 (OP)
Yet one false prophecy:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:37-38

>“37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

>38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

>39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.”

Joseph Smith agrees that God’s prophecies (spoken by him or through his prophets) cannot fail

Doctrine and Covenants 114
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, April 11, 1838…
> “1 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.”

The next spring, David Patten was to start a mission, was Smith’s (false) prophecy fulfilled?

Of course not, David Patten died in October of 1838 before any mission was started.
Joseph Smith, “History of the Church”, Volume 3, P.163
https://archive.org/details/history-of-the-church-volume-3/page/163/mode/1up
>“Brother Patten was buried this day…”

Joseph Smith was a false prophet buried by his own prophecies.

>>18102168
>for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
If you are in Jesus Christ you are not and never will be "a child of disobedience." You have already "obeyed the Gospel" and entered into the Salvation of the Lord. Only NOW can you even begin serving God. You are rewarded for your works in the Kingdom of Heaven, but can never be cast out into Hell.
Paul is commanding us to not behave like children of disobedience, because we're NOT.
>All things are lawful for me, but all things edify not
All things are lawful for the Christian, but not all things are good or holy or righteous. We WANT to be righteous.

>For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
>Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
>Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
>If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
>If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

>>18102171
>> “1 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.”
They were also told to make a temple in a place they got kicked out of; God doesn't have to justify if things go wrong which are wisdom to him.

>>18095519
>>18095519


Does it have to be taken as literal physical plates?

From lit:
>>/lit/24826544
>>/lit/24826526
>>/lit/24822616
What is the most definitive bio of Smith?

>>18102608
>>>/lit/24826544
>>>/lit/24826526
>>>/lit/24822616
Rough Stone Rolling looks like the average of the other three.

>>18102183
>not to behave like children of disobedience
What distinguishes a children of disobedience from a believer who commits these exactly same mortally sinful activities? Don’t you agree partakers in these sins of the flesh don’t enter the kingdom of heaven? If believers partake in these activities aren’t they partakers in these sins of the flesh? If a believer is a partaker in the sins of the flesh, may he enter the kingdom of heaven?
>can never be cast out into hell
Do you believe angels are created in a state of justification?
>he shall suffer loss
What did he lose if he gained the kingdom of heaven either way?
As I showed you a believer can fall away according to Christ.

>>18095501 (OP)
>>18095510
gross

>>18102617
>What did he lose if he gained the kingdom of heaven either way?
10 cities, 5 cities, an inheritance; losing degrees of glory etc etc
Whosoever breaks the least of Christ’s commandments and teaches men so shall be called “least in the Kingdom of Heaven”

Only people who verbally pronounce Jesus to be their personal Lord and Savior can get into heaven. It doesn't matter if you lived a good life and can be judged by good works to have been a good person. Only if you say Jesus is Lord, can you get into heaven. And, saying Jesus is Lord, is all you ever need to do, no matter how many times you sin after.

Mormonism is fake, because it says you have to have the experience of the Holy Ghost in order to be truly saved, where real Christianity just says you have to be apart of a one true church, which practices the Bible only, and, you must verbally confess "Jesus is Lord" to be saved, and if you do any more you will go to hell.

>#1 thread on /his/
>it's just 2 retards back and forth
ISHYGDDT

>>18103081
So everyone before Jesus is unsaved? Because they wouldn't know to call on the name of an unknown person from the future. Same with people with no contact with the Bible nor Christianity in their lives, like people who lived and died in the Americas before European contact.

That honestly sounds pretty Gnostic to me, needing special knowledge of a saying to achieve salvation. Like a magic spell that guarantees you're saved, you literally don't have to change your behavior at all. Continue to rape and murder all you want, you're totally saved because you said a special phrase at some point in the past.

Why are Mormon tradwives so popular on tiktok?

>>18103432
For one thing, you are responding to buttmad fake Solitaire.
Second, the Bible says the word of the prophets went out to all the Earth. I simply say there was precolumbian contact and the Indians had their chance to be saved.
Thirdly, before the NAME "Jesus Christ" was revealed, it was understood you needed to call upon "The LORD" ("Jehovah"). Before "Jehovah" was revealed, it was "The Most High God."
As false religion worked itself into the world, more specificity was required. The means by which any man was ever saved were the same however. The propitiation and atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb Slain from the FOUNDATION of the World.

>>18095501 (OP)
I'm starting to think the happiness Mormons derive from religion comes mostly from NT Christ and they've conflated it with thinking it was directly from The Book of Mormon. If they dropped Joseph Smith's (piss be upon him) con artistry and just stuck to Christ without it, they'd be even happier.

>>18103577
Take it from someone who was in the Mormon church: Mormon men are unusually happy because the Church gives them a ditsy but hot wife for free. It's insane because Mormon men would 100% be incels (by the traditional understanding of the term) otherwise.

>>18103585
Pussy guaranteed if you uphold the teachings? They drive a hard bargain, not going to lie, but it's not worth it. Actually, if men of Christ really wanted a wife, they could just pray for one. Not exactly a guarantee, but celibacy never really was a concern when in Christ's light.

>>18103600
This was my thought as well. I could've had the most beautiful wife - she was my girlfriend of three years. Fornicated btw so it hurt even more.
oh well. not worth it.

>>18103618
Well, you're walking in truth now, and that's the most important thing. Who knows, you might even come across a better woman. No harm in asking God for it, right?

>>18103623
My only solace was her telling me Mormon men were all effeminate and unattractive, unlike me. So in the end I can still marry who I want but she has to be stuck with a Mormoncel.
>No harm in asking God for it, right?
I realize I don't need to ask. I just need to live a good life. Whatever comes my way comes.

>>18103631
>I realize I don't need to ask. I just need to live a good life. Whatever comes my way comes.
Not a bad answer, and I feel the same way. I'm at the point of my life where I'm just sick of all the lies and just want to do good, which is why I find myself engaging in these Mormon threads. I don't want Mormons to be put down, I just want them to wake up and be in God's full grace as intended. I think they're a special kind of breed where they mean good, and that's why it feels all the more insidious that they're getting misled and manipulated by a con man's words and a cult church.

>>18103657
All churches are cons and cults, they all are guilty of trampling the testimony of Jesus and the Apostles; Joseph Smith's great revelations even are misused and abused by the Mormon denomination, but, I just want the good I found in reading them all to be put out there in case anyone else would be interested.

>>18102675
How is he being saved by fire? What happened?
The word “zemioo” in Exodus 21:22, Proverbs 17:26 and Proverbs 19:19 all refer to punishment. What does this fire mean in this context of suffering loss and being saved by fire?
You also remain silent on the rest of my points.

>>18104347
>εἴ τινος τὸ ἔργον κατακαήσεται ζημιωθήσεται αὐτὸς δὲ σωθήσεται οὕτως δὲ ὡς διὰ πυρός
>δὲ ὡς διὰ πυρός
still means "yet so as by fire"
>ζημιωθήσεται
he shall suffer loss, or be punished. either works.
>αὐτὸς δὲ σωθήσεται οὕτως
yet he himself shall be saved

The fire burns away his unrighteous works, and he is saved.
No sin is laid to the eternal account of someone who is in Jesus Christ.
>For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Every person shall be salted with fire. The saved shall have their evil works burnt away as they enter in the presence of God, who "is a consuming fire." The damned shall be salted with fire of Hell.
There is no trickery in the Greek. Your punishment for laying no good works on the foundation which is Christ, is to have no reward in Heaven. Heaven itself is not a reward. In the day that "every man sits under his vineyard and under his fig tree" in the resurrection, unprofitable servants of Christ will inherit a lesser degree of glory.

>>18104866
>the fire burns away his unrighteous works
How does this work? What does burning his works mean? If this believer defiled the temple of God? Will these works be burned away?
>heaven itself is not a reward
Being saved from eternal torment is not itself a reward?

>>18104892
>Being saved from eternal torment is not itself a reward?
No. Reward is commensurate to actions.
Believing on Jesus Christ and HIS works is not itself a work worthy of reward.

>If this believer defiled the temple of God? Will these works be burned away?
Yes, but him will God destroy. In 1 Corinthians we already have an example. The adulterer in the Church; Paul commands him to be given over to the earthly authorities to be put to death, for the "DESTRUCTION... of the FLESH, that the SPIRIT may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ."
The sins we commit on the earth are still laid to our earthly account. A truly bad servant shall God remove from the earth. And his punishment is to be "called least in the Kingdom of Heaven."
It's like you can't comprehend feeling guilty and ashamed for your sins. Especially when your brethren in Christ may inherit greater glory than yourself. You have to believe you "earn" heaven or have to be threatened with hell.

>>18104910
Basically, we see that the flesh can be destroyed yet the spirit saved. But you interpret every mention of "destruction" or punishment as specifically meaning the spirit won't be saved. Which is proven untrue.

>>18104910
>not itself a work worthy of reward
The reward for having faith is grace.
>1 Corinthians 3:17
It explicitly states God will destroy the man who defiled his temple. Man is flesh and soul and so the punishment is not only physical.
>”earn” heaven or threaten with hell
>guilt for sins
I completely comprehend feeling guilty for sins committed but that is besides the point. We are explicitly told not to partake in works that prevent you from entering the kingdom of heaven.

>>18095510
Why did they paint it as such? lol

>>18105098
>Man is flesh and soul and so the punishment is not only physical.
Let me slow this down for you,
>deliver such a one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that the SPIRIT MIGHT BE SAVED…
So your hermeneutic is proved incorrect. Sorry. You simply cannot interpret the Bible YOUR way at all times or else you make this verse nonsensical.
Man is body, soul, and spirit, true. Doesn’t disprove my argument at all. Read the words in the Bible.
If you’re Mormon though you don’t give a shit what the Bible says, obviously.

>>18105098
Do you even know the definition of the word “grace”
?

>>18105260
>deliver such a one
Does not refer to a mortal sinner. As usual you refuse to address my points and play Biblical ping pong.
>>18105279
There is actual and sanctifying grace, which one would you like me to define?