Thread 18112295

Probably one of the coolest periods of South American history and should be talked about more, I wish there were "western" movies set during the time. The idea of rough gauchos and argie troopers fighting indians on the patagonian wilderness is pure kino

>>18112295 (OP)
Julio Argentino Roca did nothing wrong

Some would call it bloody or genocidal, but it was necessary, the Indians were a bane as terrible to the old Argentinean republic as the mongols were to the chinese, when you have multiple of your children murdered and your capital razed to the ground, innocents raped and relentless brutalizing by savages in multiple occasio s it's kinda natural you develop a genocidal hatred for them, and march on punitive expeditions to wipe them out as a threat.

The Qing did the same to the Dzunghar mongols, Amerimutts did the same to their brand of amerindian savage and the romans did the same to the Gauls. You don't want aggressive, chimping tribals right beside your civilization wreaking havoc all the time, they have to be eliminated. There's no space for barbaric savages in a propper modern, civilized, educated and cultured nation, they have to be removed.

Plus, the ensuing expansion turned Argentina into the richest country in the world for a while.

>>18112512
Thruthnuke fuck Mapuche

>Ywn be paid to hunt Indios in the Patagonian wilderness.

Why live?

>>18112516
Funny thing is, the Mapuche themselves were not even native to the Argentinian steppe, they hailed originally from the Chilean araucania, and murderaped their way throughout patagonia, massacring the real natives such as the Tehuelche or Puelche or force assimilating them (A process called Araucanization), they MUCH MORE brutal towards the other Indian peoples AND the Argentinian republic than Roca ever was toeards them.

Reading reports from the time drives a chill to the spine, you understand why this country was founded on a violent hatred of amerindians and it's entirely justified.

>>18112527
Mapuches were the Zulu of South America

The American Old West wasn't unique, the American people are unique for building up so much lore about their frontier, and for making so many movies. There are countless other frontiers throughout history you could build a similar mythology around.

>>18113413
More like the mongols, they unironically desttoyed entire settlements, killed all the men and raped the women (most to death and even the children and were a terror on the settlers in both Chile and Argentina, they also set out periodic raids called Malón where they initiated the youth in pillage and rape, and were skilled with both spears and bows as well as modern firearms of the time.

They were a far more pervasive threat than the Zulus

>>18113427
It's a shame, because there's a lot of plaves that deserve to have their stories told, the Zaporozhian steppe comes to mind, for example.

>>18113514
The Mapuche were also MANLETS while the original natives of Patagonia (Tehuelches) were veritable 6' gigachads who were loyal to Argentina and defended the Welsh-Argentinian settlers of Chubut from the Map*ches and their Malón raids.

t. Welsh Argentinian

Picrel, a Group of Tehuelche chieftains in Santa Cruz

The apache, navajo and comanche were the same kind of nomadic savages. They should have just been killed off

>unironically justifying attempted genocide
"Chud" doesn't begin to describe y'all

>>18113585
Nearly some tier Japanese and Italian soldiers

>>18113661
Ywnbaw

>>18113661
>Be Mapuchoid araucanian
>Raid the provinces of the Rio de La Plata relentlessly to the point of depopulating cities
>Enter Patagonia through Araucanía and relentlessly massacre the native indigenous group to the point that the few remnants join the colonists on kicking your ass
>Rape, torture and murder indiscriminately
>The People you brutalized decide to fight back
>"OMG GENOCIDE!!1!!11!"

You have room temperature IQ and know nothing about my county, amerilard

>>18113623
That these peoples (And the Mapuche) still draw breath is truly a testament for the white man's capacity for mananimity, humanity and respect. Be certain that they would not have had the same clemency had the roles reversed in historu

>>18112295 (OP)
And for what? For Argentina to be the largest waste of European colonial capital the world has ever seen?

>>18113722
That wasn't the fault of them, in fact, the direct result of the expansion was a century spanning wealth boom that catapulted Argentina into being the richest nation of the world. We started falling apart bc of tardated politocal decisions in the 70s-90s

>>18113735
This, Argentina only became a shithole AFTER the neoliberal dictatorship

>>18113673
The Mapuche yes, the Tehuelche were so tall that they inspired legends of giants. Were also a peaceful people, who coexisted peacefully and graciously with the Welsh settlers of Chubut and mosly still do. Basically the opposite of Mapucheniggers

>>18113585
And they got wiped out for their troubles, their language now extinct, whilst Mapuches still have 1/4 million speakers of their language and get respect. Compare Maori and Moriori.

>>18113851
Yes, largely wiped out and massacred and Araucanized by Mapuches, which is why they joined and intermarried and assimilated into the patagonian settler population, most notably the Welsh like yours truly. Pic related, Patagonian Welsh man and his tehuelche wife.

Tehuelches were given both lands and protected citizen status, which they hold til today, you most absolutely cannot use them as a cudgel against Argentinians Amerimutt, they' and their descendents are Argentinian and proud.

>>18114571
Forgot pic

>>18114571
>their descendents are Argentinian and proud.
They're crafted for big bolivian cock

>>18114571
>Amerimutt
I'm British. More Welsh than you Pablo. "Argentinian" or Welsh? Which is it? Argentinian is as mutted an identity as American or Brazilian.

So their reward is being racemixed out of existence and forced to learn a foreign language? Kek. It's the exact same outcome as they would have had under the Mapuches. In fact (as you probably know) they fought on both sides.

>>18114689
>"Argentinian" or Welsh?
what a retarded thing to say. argentine isn't an ethnic identity, obviously those two things aren't mutually exclusive. not him btw just wanted to point out that you're stupid and probably dishonest

>>18114689
My grandparents from my father side were both born in Swansea, from my mother's side my gramps was born in Bangor and my grandpa in Cardiff, I'm certainly more welsh than you, whose parents came from Maharastra just last year Krishnapandjit.

Either way I was born in Argentina and here I'll stay untill I die, I have 0 design to return to the land my forefathers left, they must have left it for a good reason, and I'm a proud Patagonian and proud Argentinian.

As for the Tehuelche, no, they weren't mixed out of existence, in fact there's thousands of them in Chubut alone, their culture and traditions are celebrated as part od their heritage and while of them mixed with us, they were not fotgotten and rather became a pillar and part of oir identity

And yes, many were Araucanized and forcefully assimilated into the Mapuche, and they got what they deserved, those who remained loyal are part of the Argentinian nation and an essential part.

Also i don't have your retarded wignat fear of racemixing no, I consider welsh-tehuelche as chubutian as I am, and one of the is worth a billion pajeets from L*nd*n like yourself.

This isn't about racism, this is about development and national consolidation

>>18114611
>B*livian
Lmao dude, you're being replaced by german mennonites on your own country, your sorry ass is cooked.

>>18114689
It's a paki from London larping as a welshman, pay him no mind.

>>18114777
>argentine isn't an ethnic identity,
Checked. It's a mutt identification tag, like Brazilian or American.

>>18114796
>proud Patagonian and proud Argentinian.
So you're not Welsh?

>loyal
Loyalty to a foreign group (you) is betrayal to their own. The pride of your country is a pack of traitors and slaves. The only loyal ones died fighting against both the brown hordes of Argie and Mapuche.

>ayyy you are Indian gringo ayyyy
I'm not telling you where I live because Britain is a small island, but I'm native, though not Welsh (which you don't speak). I'm not from London, which is another mongrel cesspit.

>traditions not forgotten.
They are mixed race Spanish-speaking Christcucks. One of billions. Genes and culture: obliterated. They are not a pillar of your identity, but a graveyard you've built your house on. If you are half one thing, half another, then you are neither.

>national consolidation
A nation ('nat'; born/birth), by definition, has shared ancestry. You have an economic zone.

>>18114825

No, I'm not a citizen of the country of Wales, constituent part of great britain no, I'm a citizen of Argentina, born in the province of Chubut, in the city of Trelew.

This is my nationality, as for ethnicity, I'm ethnically european, brythonic, celtic, welsh, that's my ethnicity, you know nationality and ethnicity are not the same thing, but you'd know that wouldn't you Rajkumal?

I don't get why you think I can't be Argentinian (nationality) and Welsh (ethnicity) it ain't hard to figure out, but I guess it iz for low IQ Dalit Hindustanis.

Aa for the tehuelche they were loyal to their nation (Argentina) and their ethnicity/tribe (Tehuelche) what is so hard to understand

If converting to christianity and speaking spanish means they are no longer Tehuelches then only europeans who worship Zeus/Odin and soeak ancient languages are true europeans, see how stupid this is?

>Economic zone
A nature is more than that asshoke, it's a set of territories, constitutions, laws and unifying principles. By your definition, China and Russia aren't nations.

>>18114796
>>18114825

I don't give a shit about this thread but I can't stand how much you faggots fuck up this shit. Anonymous and here you are preening like a bunch of facebook sissies.

And if I didn't quote you argie and welshman then whatever you're both niggers in your behavior.

>>18114862
>Trelew
Kek look at the state of you Mexicans. You'd fry an egg with the grease off your hair no doubt. Don't start with being European when you look like picrel.

>can't be Welsh
because you aren't. Picrel. I guarantee you have a very warped idea of what Welsh people look like. (You) are in fact a Kalergi-tier racial hybrid. Personality is half heritable (look it up), so it's more than just looks.

>loyal
It wasn't their nation, they didn't develop it. It was imposed upon them. It's like having a Briton loyal to the Roman Empire because they were scared of the Picts. They are still traitors.

>nation etymology
It comes from shared ancestry, as in, common genes. That's my point

>China and Russia aren't nations
Correct. They are economic zones.

>>18114862
>If converting to christianity and speaking spanish means they are no longer Tehuelche...
It's the icing on the cake, after the race-mixing. If one were pure, but spoke Spanish, he can claim to be one. If he spoke the language, but was mixed, maybe he could be, but if you are mixed and don't have the culture, you aren't.

>Europeans aren't European
Correct. Most are Neolithic farming brown eyed abominations. Half of them are depigmented Arabs.

>>18114868
If an Arg*e shot me dead I'd be less offended than if he claimed to be British but was mixed. I'd sooner have my head sawn off by a negro than see one waving my flag.

>>18114896
>Posts photo of descendents of very recent Boliguayan migrants
>Claims they are founding stock welsh chubutians

Anon are you retarded?

There's a difference also between your political nation, as in the entity you're nationally subjected to and your nationality and genes, otherwise boers are Khoisans

The rest of your post just outs you as a retarded twitterbrained /pol/ackoid with a very warped vision of what national, cultural and racial identities are especially in South America.

>Hair and eye autism

Lmao you lost absolutely any scientific credibility you had, you're as laughable as Vargtard nerdicist spergs.

I'm done being baited into arguing with someone with such a low IQ.

>>18114896
Ok calm down Ben Franklin lmao.

>>18114896
Not that anon but next time try getting pictures of real Patagonian Welsh, this is very disingenuous, that'd be like if I represented England by showing a picture of London Pakis (Bolivians are Argentina's paki problem basically).

>>18115014
If you look different it's because your genetics are different. You don't see random Chinese pop up looking like Swedes, you don't see brown people without brown ancestors. Anon, I live about 40 minutes from Wales, I go there a lot, no one looks like >>18114896. It's the facial features as well as colour.

If all that binds you together is an abstraction in the extreme, not even something you can express but by assent, then your 'nationhood' is really more of a membership. You are not Argentinian in the way Japanese people are Japanese, or Icelandic people Icelandic. Your view, from the outset, is inherently warped by your having no true national identity, which is why you conflate nations and sovereign states. No English people have the loyalty to the UK that they have to England, because they are English first and foremost. If you are not [ethnicity[ first, but Argentinian first, then you are nothing, because Argentina is nothing but an economic zone, indistinguishable of itself from any of its kind; Our genes and nation are synonymous and come before other identities. If yours don't, then you have been cut off at the root.

If a Boer identifies as South African before Boer, or has loyalty to blacks more than Dutch people, then he is insane. If you actually are Welsh genetically, and have more loyalty to some Spaniards than to the Cymry, then you are insane.

The natives of Patagonia were one of the most primitive peoples in the world. It’s mind boggling how could they exist like this when on the other side of the Andes the Mapuche were building fortresses and had polities. The Patagonians probably didn’t even know how to fish or preserve meat. It’s sad to see what happened to them, especially the Selknam. Very mysterious tribes.

>>18115088
Red are non-white, orange have admixture. The two men I'm unsure of due to the photo, though if he is the father of the one on the left then he is also admixed. The orange circle in the middle might actually be white, but the photo is low quality.

>>18113585
>t. Welsh Argentinian
No you're not. Stop larping, Pablo.

>>18115080
This was the land my forefathers who came from wales tamed and made our own, we built Chubut, not the spaniards, in fact there are more argentinians of european immigrant descent than mestizo, castizo or even spaniard. That of course, counting just actual Argies and not Boliguayos. Why should I have loyalty to the place my ancestors chose to left behind? That's like asking a Massachussets inhabitant to have loyalty to England or Ireland.

And for the record, I don't look like the Boliguaya in your pic lmao, again, way to go cherrypicking when clear pics of welsh argentinians exist and they look like any other welsh person

>>18115088
>>18115076

Like this anon posted

>>18115095
They were primitive, but actually quite resourceful, Tehuelches were quick to adopt the horse, use modern weapons and learn to fight to defend themselves against the Malón.

They were also not mongol tier homicidal and coexisted well with white settlers.

>>18115120
>proving he can't speak Welsh
I wrote Cymry, not Cymru. The people, not the place.

>pictures
In all those examples, like picrel, the only Welsh people are the older ones. The younger are all mongrelised and don't speak Welsh, so they fall short on both genetic and cultural aspects of identity. What exactly is Welsh about them?

>>18115130
>Again cherrypicks a school full of Patria Grande immigrants

Anon how would you feel if I defined the brits by showing pics of paki filled schools? We have an immigration problem, I know, but it's not like you are faring any better in that regard.

And I am loyal to the welsh people of Patagonia, what I am not loyal to is the polity of Wales and Great Britain, I am an Argentinian citizen, there are Argentinian citizens of welsh ethnicities god damn what about this is so hard to understand?

>>18115164

In this pic: Brown people according to Anon.

>>18112512
>Some would call it bloody or genocidal, but it was necessary

how was it "necessary"? the colonizers could have just left

>>18115188
They didn't plan to expand originally you colossal retard, the mapuche crossed the Araucanía all the way through the fucking andes massacring every other native tribe along the way and pushed into Buenos Aires, it was a war against their Aggression. A punitive expedition against barbarian incursions. Think Caesar in Gaul or Germanicus marching across the Rhine.

>>18115188
Anon, the Mapuche were the colonizers on this one.

>>18115164
>>18115165
>posts the blurriest pics imaginable
Yep most of them are brown in the second picture.

>weasel words
I specifically said: more loyal to the Welsh PEOPLE than to Argentina. If you were on a lifeboat, and there was one seat left, would you give it to a Welshman from Wales or a non-Welsh Argentinian?

I understand if you're confused. The white man's mind often runs too fast for ethnics to keep up with. But please try to answer directly.

>>18115200

It would depend on the character of said Welshman and said Argentinian, that's a colossally stupid hypothetical, you call me brown but your mind has the ape like tribaloid knee jerk instinct of a fucking bantu. But lets suppose both were equally worthy and good people I never met yada yada yada and all the variables are equalized, then in this case I'd save the Argentinian because his ancestors and mine are part of the same immigrant wave from europe that built this country into European excellence in the southern hemisphere, and we shed blood and guts to defend a collective nation we are culturallynpart of, regardless if he's also welsh, spaniard, Italian, German, French, Lebanese, Croatian, Japanese, Tehuelche or Chinese. Because these immigrant communities arrived from the boats with us are all part of the same national ideal

So yeah I'm not a Wignat or a /pol/ack, sorry if that disappoints you.

Go ask a new englander id he saves a "bong" or an irish or german american

>>18115232
>I'd save the Argentinian
What can I even say to that? Scum of the Earth. Imagine standing over the body of someone who could be your brother, someone who spoke the language of your fathers, just so some mutts would pat you on the back. I imagine men like you stood by as their "fellow Argentinian economic zone members" raped and murdered their way through the Falklands. All out of civic duty of course.

>English/Irish/German
Another bad comparison. You said you'd save a Chinese or MENA over a Welshman but here you give only strongly linked ancestries. If he decided to save an Italian/Chinese/etc. American over an Englishman, he is undoubtedly a traitor.

It's sickening, but at it's heart, rather more sad.

>>18115257
>Stood by
Bro, my dad fought in the war lmao, on the Argentinian side of course, because even though we are of welsh origin we are first and foremost argentinians.

That's like getting mad at an ethnic batavian or syrian for fighting as a Roman Auxilia even though they have been a roman citizen for their entire life, integrated into roman life and comunity and benefiting from Romanitas, and his father before him

>Chinese and MENA
The Chinese and Lebanese have been part of this country for as long as we are, and contributed heavily to it, pic and video related Jorge Antonio "El Turco" Cafrune, of Syrian lebanese descent one of the most popular Argentine folklorist singers of all time, as well as an unflagging researcher, compiler, and diffuser of Argentinian and Gaucho culture.

https://youtu.be/eP1kaJexkgI?si=9_0PvA5MaIhK9d1Z

You van bet your sorry ass I'd save him over a BLM tatted ho from cardiff in a heartbeat, me and him are part of the same nation, the same cultural zeitgeist, I have a lot more in common with him than I do with an uni liberal in wales.

Again I'm not a wignat anon, I'm a nationalist, my nation was composed of many imigrant peoples in a rich tapestry, I know it befuddles your poor wignat tribal mind, but remember that the greatest empires in the world, like the Roman and INCLUDING the British Empire ruled ober and had citizens of a myriad of walks of life.

I'm also not "racist", I hate Boliguayos that parasite our system and historically raiding Mapuches that brutalized our people, but have no issue with fellow Argentinians of civilised races such as Levantines and Chinese, they have been a credit to this country. I also don't really hate people of Bolivia and Paraguay just wish they'd stop sending their scum over here.

what the fuck is going on in this thread? are people really this autistic about haplogroups?

>>18116593

It's mainly a brit wignat arguing with some argie nationalist, no talk about haplogroups at all, which is sad, I like haploautism

>>18113514
What are your sources for the Mapuche savagery?

>>18113851
The Moriori were a culturally divergent offshoot of Maori that got annihilated by their distant Maori kin, not because they sucked up to the colonial authorities too much.

Osterns are Westerns set in the Siberian frontier for anyone interested
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostern

>>18117091

Not that anon but:

https://repository.digital.georgetown.edu/handle/10822/1042899

This one from a chilean perspective, in an earlier period:
https://www.memoriachilena.gob.cl/archivos2/pdfs/MC0054412.pdf

Both very good sources, but a lot more sources can be gathered by reading primary accounts from the time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%B3n

>>18117134
Kino, is there any particularly good one?

>>18114574
>Ywn be a settler with your own butterface injun sqwaw you married by offering her father beads

I cri evritiem